Lead Time
Lead Time
Leading with Kindness and Wisdom: with Reverend Dr. Tim Klinkenberg
What does it take to lead with kindness, courage, and wisdom amidst the trials and tribulations of our time? Reverend Dr. Tim Klinkenberg paints an inspiring picture in our enlightening conversation about his journey. From humbly playing football to receiving pastoral affirmation and now spearheading critical conversations ahead of the LCMS convention, Tim's dedication to Jesus and his love for us all is an inspiring tale we can't wait for you to hear.
Tim exposes the often untold aspects of leadership and mentorship in the church, sharing insights drawn from a lifetime of experience. His strategic approach to team building, married with his unique blend of passion and wisdom, opens a new perspective on leadership development. Through our discussion, we delve into the critical need for unity, collaboration, and respectful conversations in the church, even when we're surrounded by disagreements.
Towards the end, we explore the Concordia University System, its restructuring, and the implications for the future of the Missouri Synod. Emphasizing the importance of trust, policy-based governance, and a broader representation in the church, Tim offers a hopeful vision for the future of the church. A future where the church is known for its kindness, courage, and leads individuals towards the truth. Join us in this thought-provoking episode and let's together contribute towards building a unified and hospitable church.
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Leigh Time is a podcast of the Unite Leadership Collective hosted by Tim. Ollman and Jack Calibur. The ULC envisions the future in which all congregations fully equip the priesthood of all believers through world-class leadership development at the local level. Leigh Time taps into biblical wisdom for practical solutions to today's burning issues. Each podcast confronts real-time struggles facing the local church in a post-Christian culture. Step into the action with the ULC at uniteleadershiporg. This is Leigh Time.
Speaker 2:Welcome to Leigh Time Tim Ollman here. Jack Calberg will be back soon. He's on vacation right now. I pray, wherever you're taking this in, that the joy of the Lord is your strength and that we've been having a lot of conversations in the Lutheran Church of Missouri Synod. We need to disagree, agreeably, unite around the essentials of the scriptures and the confessions and, especially in this season heading into the LCMS convention, which I will be at and I think my guests here today will be as well we need to have robust conversations and keep our eyes and our hearts fixed on the main thing, which is Jesus and his love for us, our baptismal identity, and then the call of the church, through Word and sacrament, to multiply disciples to get the message of Christ out into places of overt and covert darkness. So that is what my guest today, reverend Dr Tim Klinkenberg, has been doing for hey, congrats on that, bro has been doing for some time.
Speaker 2:A pastor's son, born in 1964, springfield, illinois man, the heartland and in many respects, of the Lutheran Church of Missouri Synod. Graduate of Concordia College in St Paul, minnesota, now Concordia Seminary, back in the seminary there in St Louis in 1991, and then a recent grad with his doctorate. Love to hear about that from Fuller Seminary in 2022. He has a wife of 35 years, just celebrated their anniversary congratulations and she's a financial controller at Orange Lutheran High School. So they have been embedded at St John's Lutheran Church and School in Orange County for 30 some years this month and it's a true joy, from one generational pastor to another brother, to get to learn with you and pray for our church body. We love it, we care for it and, out of that love and care, also praying for an appropriate level of challenge as we navigate these uncharted waters in a secular post-Christian culture here in America today. So it's an honor to have you, reverend Dr Tim Klingenberg, thanks for hanging out bud.
Speaker 3:Thank you, it's good to be with you. Thank you for your patience with me and the opportunity to connect today.
Speaker 2:Oh man, so fun. Been looking forward to it. So just a general question why and you can get into your story here a little bit too but why do you do what you do as a pastor in the Lutheran Church of Missouri Synod so faithfully for so many decades?
Speaker 3:Oh my gosh, sometimes I wonder that too, you know, and when I got through that 30th anniversary of ordination and I realized I'm not the youngest guy in the room anymore, right, and there's a season of meaning that comes with those late 50s, that helps you reflect on that, I think. And I think I do what I do a lot our friends and colleagues, right, the love of the Lord Jesus, when I was at Concordia College in St Paul it was, I went there to play football and to hang out and I had left Cal State, fullerton with a low GPA and my father, who was a pastor, sat me down and said Timothy, you're going nowhere and you're an idiot. I mean, I remember I'd go right back to the bedroom my dad's sitting there, all that stuff and so I transferred, played football, blew out my knee, and then I came home for Christmas and I said I'm done, I'm quitting, I'm done. And my dad said I've already paid the tuition, you're staying Well. Okay, and Pastor Tom Reese, who was our offensive line coach, who eventually became the president of both, I believe, lutheran Church Extension Fund or the Foundation, and then president of Concordia St Paul, he put his arm around me and he had kind of a D-boy. He said, clink, we need pastors like you. And I'm like, no, my uncle, my grandpa, my great-great grandpa, my father, I'm not doing it, but slowly and steadily. It wasn't that like St Paul, I got knocked off a horse or saw a burning bush, like Moses, it was just gradual affirmation and I think that's where it was.
Speaker 3:I always really enjoyed working with young people. I know you enjoy coaching. I really enjoyed that, and going into pastoral ministry allowed me the opportunity to work with young people until I got old. You know what I mean. And then all of a sudden I remember distinctly that season ending and waking up in a gym in Memphis and going I can't do this anymore. So then, the way the LCMS works I had an opportunity then to pastor and move my career in a different direction. But certainly it's been affirmation, kindness, encouragement has led me on with that and been a real blessing to my faith and to my life, as well as to my family and the relationships I have. It's been a good ministry time.
Speaker 2:There's, it's so good.
Speaker 2:There's work right now from the Set Apart to Serve initiative in the Lutheran Church of Missouri Synod to help kind of fan into flame those natural relationships, those life on life from one generation down to the next, to raise up women and men for different roles within the church.
Speaker 2:And it sounds, you know, it feels like to me that for a variety of reasons, you know, pastors maybe just trying to stay in the game, keep the church open and hopefully united on mission in some way, shape or form, somewhere along the line we kind of lost maybe that organic I would use that that organic kind of pull into the next generation of leaders. Cause that's what I hear you kind of experience in many respects, just about 10 years behind you, brother, I mean that's what I experienced too. It wasn't one moment per se for me, I mean confirmation kind of is when the door opened. But then there were so many people Lutheran High School in Denver to Concordia Seward that just said, yeah, tim, I see this in you. And what they affirmed was like not because you're like super, super intelligent or anything like that, because you're getting, you know, 4.5, which some kids get today, which I was never approaching.
Speaker 1:Approaching that you know.
Speaker 2:But what they said is you love people and you love Jesus, so let's go love people and invite them into a relationship with Jesus. And there was also that element of and I think you have this too that athletic kind of and maybe we've lost this a little bit that kind of competitive edge that I think a lot of churches just struggle with the sense of competition, not against other churches at all, but against the sin, death and the devil, like we will do whatever it takes, that sense of urgency to bring the gospel in those places. And I think we need more folks that have experienced, yes, the arts, but also athletics, who have learned what it means to be in a team environment moving forward. How did that team aspect kind of shape then? Your team ministry, tim?
Speaker 3:It's so funny I don't know if your staff looks at you sometimes and I'll go hey, it's not fourth and 25, it's third and two. Let's get the first down and press on it.
Speaker 3:So they look at me like I'm brain dead. But I agree with you. For me I was never an exceptional athlete but I always loved to be on the team and like you, I'm sure, like my daughter, I was captain and leader guy and coach guy and that stuff and I think some of the things that you learn there in a safe place, because very few people, if any, no one dies from winning or losing a sporting event. Although I'm living in Orange County, I'm pretty sure that parents feel that if juniors little league team loses three to one, they're diminished as people. But that's just not true right.
Speaker 3:Athletics, sports, is a very safe place to learn sacrifice, giving yourself for others, overcoming adversity, putting your best foot forward. What did they say at this time? It was gracious, modest and victory. Gracious in defeat, in defeat. That's right. It's just such good lessons to learn. And then how to pick somebody up when they've dropped the ball, or you know, I'll never forget some of those games where you went into score and there was a flag on the field and you're like oh no. Or a drop ball. You're like oh no. Well, you go back to the huddle, you pat the guy on the shoulder and you get after it. And I agree with you, pastor. I think that's a great, a great safe place to learn. And I don't know it. Just, my dad was a football player guy too, and we always grew up with that. So there was that competitive piece, that just a part of my DNA, which sometimes I got a throttle back because, oh my God, it's just ooh you know you got to.
Speaker 2:There's a line, there's a line and we step over that. Step over that line. So let's talk about say John's a little bit, get us into your world there. You've been there so long and what's giving you hope, especially post COVID? Right now we're leading in a uncharted waters. What's giving you joy at St John's?
Speaker 3:I think uncharted is such a gracious way to say that it was hard. You know and I know, and people have said you know, what historically have you drawn from? I always think about what arrows are in your quiver. I don't know about you, but I reach back and I'm like wait a minute, I don't have a pandemic arrow to shoot at this.
Speaker 3:And so we likened it a lot, especially through the days where things were closed down school and church and I know you guys have such an extensive Monday through Saturday ministry as well it was like being in a mine with a miner's helmet on, with the light on your thing, just kind of looking around and could never get the full context. So we changed a bunch of stuff that we could. Some of the things that were sacred to us that weren't working were like worship times. Well, the government helped with that the schools and pivoting to online education and online worship services. A lot of that online stuff that we've done, especially on Sundays, has either grown or been enhanced. I mean, our attendance doubles when we consider our online viewers on throughout the week and we try that.
Speaker 2:The exact same. For us, it's the same amount of people. It's hard to get your mind around. The same amount of people 800, some, you know, 8, 900 that are online as in the space, with a very conservative viewership at 20 minutes or more, 1.5 people per view. That's what we use as our metric, and so I mean that's hard to wrap your mind around. I don't know how to pass that environment and it's not full.
Speaker 3:I mean it's not like, hey, I miss church. It's like, hey, we're in Florida and we're watching church and then sounds not good. I'm like, okay, Lyle, thanks, you know I'm good, but that was good. And then reopening was just. I mean, instead of seeing how much programming and how much kind of the old baby boomer of if you build a ton of program and do church things, people have come. We built with a much more missional model and so our school went from about 60 to 70% members to about 40, 45% members and we have record enrollment the last three years and you know as well as I do what a marvelous gift that is.
Speaker 3:The other thing we built back on was missions and our work with vulnerable children in Orange County was kind of incubated before COVID. But one of the things we do is called caregivers day off and like grandma and grandpas who are caring for grandchildren and sometimes it's amazing how many children they have in their home. We have one lady, she has 11. And she comes and drops off the children and we live out I don't know 225 people and then the volunteers come around them. But through COVID with our facilities, with playground and gym and places for food and outdoor field and all that stuff. We really made a huge impact in that, so much that Orange County says, okay, what are you going to do next? So we started working on supervised visits and providing places for that.
Speaker 3:It's been really a good season for us. So we're not as big as we were in terms of size on Sunday morning Last Sunday we ran 900. We had like 1200 online. But a typical Sunday for us before COVID would have been end of June, june 14. 12, 15, yeah, 1400 maybe, but we still get our Sundays of 12, 1300, but we won't hit those till September now. But we're much more focused, much more honestly, much more effective. Our new member classes are full, 35 to 55, a pop, and I'm sure you're experiencing the same. It's not people who are churched coming into our congregation anymore, you know, because they're ticked off at the Presbyterians. They're legit, you know first time they hear Jesus. It's awesome, that's right.
Speaker 2:It's such an opportunity and I don't know how else you'd look at it Either curl up into a ball and kind of give up some you know two, three years ago I was talking to, or you'd lean into it and embrace it. And, you know, build, measure, learn different, different ideas, especially around what I hear you saying felt needs in the community, like what does our community need and how has the Lord resourced us? Time, talent and treasures are spaces like they're the communities, they're not ours. So let's open it, open it wide up. That is so so good man. We talk a lot about felt needs as kind of the front door into a relationship, not just with Christ Greenfield but with Jesus. Right, do you use similar language? I kind of hear you talking about that. What's the language that you use in terms of community engagement?
Speaker 3:Just exactly that community engagement we started down the road of. We won't. I know your congregation is so good at raising up leaders and training leaders. We won't go in a missional direction without having a catalytic leader. And we had a catalytic leader with foster care ministries, which started very humbly. Her name was Mary Salgado and now she's legendary in Orange County Family Services because she just persistently kept going. And if we have a vision and a catalytic leader, then we think God is leading us towards something so right. What is the community need and what do we have? And how do those mesh? It's a very simple process but, boy, navigating it and navigating the details of liability and relationships and personal ups and downs is, you know it's challenging. You know it's first and 10, second and five, third and two first down. It's just kind of taking the ball down the field.
Speaker 2:Yeah, not everybody is is like you, tim, nor like me. You're very, you're very unique. What we like to talk about, too, with the ULC is a leader leading out of their spiky strengths and then building a team around. You know their opportunities for growth. No leader is completely whole. That's why we have the metaphor of the body of Christ. So how do you speak to on your team as you go on missions, start new things, raise up prospective leaders? How do you speak about your spiky strengths and then and then even your gaps? I always say gifts and gaps. What does that sound like with you on your team, tim?
Speaker 3:I would say a spiky strength of mine is passion, but it cuts both ways and I've had to learn to temper that quite a bit because I enjoy serving, I enjoy working, I enjoy doing. I get fed on that and so that that cuts both ways. In that it's taking me a while to figure out that that the pace I keep isn't everybody else's pace, and so I would create, as a younger leader, fatigue in my team and resentment. And actually doing the work at fuller help me learn about myself, how to throttle back, how to listen better to the felt needs, if you will, of my own teammates and, rather than just crushing and driving on, knowing when to ease off and and tap the break. And so we go by the maximum. Maybe you do higher slowly and let people go quickly, and so we've had a much more methodical way of bringing people on the team, almost like a tryout, developing job descriptions and making sure they know parameters, making sure they have the temperament, and so we've our, our teams gotten markedly younger.
Speaker 3:Pastor Trevor is not quite 40. Our music guy is 34. Our principal's 40. So we've moved from a team that was mid to late sixties. I bet the average age of our teams may be 42, 43, and that's me at 59. So filling in the gaps is is is a great way to say we. We want a different temperament than just me, and so I recognize my role and my limitations to some degree. One of my limitations is energy. I certainly don't have the energy you do.
Speaker 1:I don't know about that.
Speaker 3:Right, I can. I can bring big hinges or little hinges, open big doors, and sometimes, with wisdom and experience, I can open a door in a different way than I could with just raw work and horsepower. So that's, that's cool.
Speaker 2:So you talked about your doctorate and what you learned about yourself. But go deeper into the program, cause a lot of people we're talking before we got got rolling here that there may be some who say I can't believe you went and got a doctorate from Fuller seminary. Or, for me, you know, you got a doctorate from Denver seminary, but or from, uh yeah, from some other place, and then Concordia seminary, one of our two and what I kind of felt like is, well, I had a baseline understanding of, and you could even say expertise in some realms of the history and exegesis, systematic theology, and so I was just branching out, not compromising theology at all, uh, but learning how to have theological hospitality and maybe honestly read people that are under the umbrella of confessional Christianity that I just hadn't been exposed to up to that point. So what was your experience? And then talk a little bit about your, your thesis.
Speaker 3:Oh, wow. I was at a point in ministry where I was struggling and I had pulled all the levers I'd known to pull and I was 48, 49, um, and we had gone through a litigious piece at St John's and we had been in a mandatory settlement thing for a trust where the lady had said we're leaving all this $4 million to your church and it came time for us to receive that money. We got nothing. So I made a phone call and I said where's the money? We were ready to roll on the next project and they said no, no, the, the family redid the will and you're going to get nothing. So we went into a mandatory settlement thing and we got, instead of a hundred percent, we ended up like 15%, which was significant. So then the attorney gave back the money. She said pastor Tim, we want you to go back to school. So they gave $25,000 for me to go and pursue that a fuller. And it was a perfect timing, uh, pastor, just perfect.
Speaker 3:And so the, the authors we had to read. You know I had read some Brennan Manning before, but to read his book Ruthless Trust and to wear it out, um, to read Dallas Willard, uh, to read, um, oh, henry Nowan, to read a more Tim Keller, uh, and then to read some more kind of stuff that I would have never even sniffed. It was completely transformational that. And then I had weight loss surgery and so I lost a hundred pounds in that thing as well, which I mean I can't tell you what it is to be mentally and intellectually healthy and then also to have the physicality behind that as well. So I think had I not done that before COVID Tim, I'm not sure I would have made it. I was not in a good place. So the crux of the project and the crux of the piece was from Bobby Clinton's book. It's okay.
Speaker 3:The making of a leader, and he talks about three stages of ministry. One is calling, and we in the Missouri Senate we're really good at that. It was a strong sense of calling who we are, by whom we're called, for what we're called. And that was the first year talking about that, writing papers and reading books and solve them. The second is contribution, and that's where you know, that's where you build ministry right, you have such a nice campus at Christ Greenfield and I just remember when you first got there and how hard that was. But your contribution is the stability of that congregation, great enrollment, high attendance, leadership development and you build all that stuff from I don't know, 35 to 57, 58. And then that last piece is one of the hardest pieces is Clinton talks about you go from calling to contribution, to convergence.
Speaker 3:And the idea of convergence is taking your calling and what your aptitudes are and marrying them in a way that allows you to get to the end of your career and into retirement or out of professional ministry into something that's deep, rich, meaningful, provides a sense of fulfillment.
Speaker 3:And that was very liberating for me to think that instead of, hey, you got to crush it and you got to achieve all these goals until your Concordia Plant Services pension fulfills and then you're done and then you're out. But it provided an opportunity to draw a picture a little bit more of what post-St John's and post-senior pastor stuff looks like. It was extremely helpful Help me to acknowledge my own weaknesses which, with the help of my therapist and my wife, was really good. But again, it was the perfect timing for me and so then we developed a leadership Bible study. I'll start that again this fall with that and highlighting the contribution, calling contribution and convergence. Speaking also of things that in our lifetime, my friend, I don't think we thought we'd have to address racial inequities, the gender, sex, peace, christian worldview and the goal of that study then, from my D-Min project, is to launch leaders into congregational places and places in the community of influence and authority. And it's cool. So far, so good.
Speaker 2:You're living it out, man, I'm trying.
Speaker 3:I'm so excited.
Speaker 2:You know, I know this doesn't mean much because I'm your junior, but I'm proud of you and you are a testament to a lifelong learner. Oh goodness, you get to that crux in life, tim, and you can go one of two ways. It can go super dark, you tap out leaders have moral failures, addictions, all the things. Or you say, man, god gave me this beautiful life and I need to be refired. Lord Jesus, I repent and really that repentance is that about turn man, I am yours, I'm 100% in and that journey it's like the hero's journey.
Speaker 2:There's a problem right now and, lord Jesus, you've given me your Holy Spirit and I don't know exactly.
Speaker 2:You know I'm kind of walking through. We see now through a mirror dimly, but I'm trusting you as you lead me through and into this new season of life, this new sense of and it is that I love that word convergence, right, the converging of my past, my initial story and all the gifts and the gaps that came with that. But then really you're elevating. You know you're seeking more, where Christ is, where he is seated above, and you can kind of look down with love and grace and empathy upon your former self. You're not gonna live with shame or crippling guilt, but you're gonna lead forward now with, I think, a greater sense of self-awareness about who you are and your contribution to the world. It just kind of elevates and I love, in your story too, how that elevation is elevating others. Tim right, I mean it's about other leaders kind of going on that hero's journey as well, from contribution to convergence and man, the multiplying ripple effect that takes place when a leader in your position does that exponential, so awesome.
Speaker 3:Well and, like your congregation, you have well-connected guys who are gonna retire at I don't know, 58, 59, 62,. They're healthy, they're well-positioned, they're well-resourced. These aren't guys. I mean coming back to our football thing these are players we want in the game man. We want them throwing the ball and moving the ball down the field. Those are some of our best leaders. They have time and availability and passion and gifts that the. I just had breakfast with the chairman of the board for Concordia University in Irvine. You mentioned the 703 thing. He ran the Raytheon plant, billion dollar plant up in Fullerton. I mean, running a university and doing the finances of that is child's play to him. But the relational thing and figuring out how to operate in a people system rather than a manufacturing system, it was awesome. And he's 10 years older than me. Not even he's 64. Five years, six years older than me, man, he's been working on that boards for six years. But that right, that's the kind of influential leader that we wanted to provide opportunity for for real.
Speaker 2:People have heard me go off on this so much.
Speaker 1:I should go off on this. I'm tempering myself.
Speaker 2:I'm tempering myself, right now because.
Speaker 2:I really I'm gonna summarize everything we need to accomplish. The church's mission is within our house for every role within the church, let that, let that just rust with it's there. Systemic leaders in the LCMS do you recognize the treasure of the laity, some of whom need to be called into roles of service, maybe under the office of Holy ministry, or into executive leadership roles? But they're connected relationally, generationally. They love our theology, they wanna go deeper and they wanna leverage all of those gifts that they had maybe in secular America to multiply disciples like they're there.
Speaker 2:But I don't think we're talking too much right now, in this season of the secular push we're talking I say imbalance about we need to talk to the youth in the next generation, raising up that pipeline of leaders. But there's a window right now, I would say, of the next 10 to 15 years, where congregations are like we're a little bit stuck right now we don't know what to do. But could there be vision to say I bet there's a leader in your local congregation that's been there for a long time, that has a street cred and just needs to be theologically formed? Can the methods and the structures accommodate that sort of a move for maybe even a bivocational leader. I've talked about it a lot, said enough now. What are your thoughts, though, with that, tim?
Speaker 3:I love watching you go on that man. I could check that off my list. Watch Tim go, but right on, and I think you're a wide receiver, right yeah?
Speaker 1:we played offense.
Speaker 3:That was a quarterback, we played offense even better. Move the ball down the field right and offense, move, innovate, go. Sometimes you just gotta take off and run. And we play so much defense in the LCMS. I laughed at the email that was sent out to us this week about defending confessional Lutherism in Australia and I'm like, okay, we're gonna play more defense. How about if we go plant churches and lift up leaders in Australia? And I don't like playing defense. I think that's part of what led me to some depressive stuff was playing defense, and one of my guys is a George Patton. He always said defensive fortifications are monuments to the stupidity of mankind. Well, let's go right. I'm with you on.
Speaker 3:Every resource that a congregation has, I think can be found in that congregation or with a partnership with somebody else. But we're so reticent to trust one another in our denomination. It just I don't know. I don't know it's my generation that did that. I mean I feel sense of responsibility for that. I participated in some negative stuff, but not so much anymore. I'm trying to find partnerships in ways that we can work together with other ministries. I'm curious, tim till I retire, yeah exactly, Exactly.
Speaker 2:Gates of Hell can't stand against the movement and that's not defensive. That's not defensive.
Speaker 3:That's offensive Gates of Hell. Right Hell is defending Amen, amen.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, we're playing offense and that means we can remain confessional Lutheran as well as mission oriented trying testing new things, build measure, learning how we multiply disciples and not compromising theology. We can do two things at the same time. So I'm curious to know more about what you think and I know that's a broad brush statement when you say your generation contributed to this. Can you get more specific about what that looks like in your kind of broad brush stroke of?
Speaker 3:that, yeah. So I was born in 1964, so the very end of the baby boom, and when I went through seminary I had different professors, I'm sure, than you did. And basically to get through the seminary in 1991, you had to hate higher criticism and understand Lutheran hermeneutics and some systematics and stuff. But it was not spiritually formative, it was intellectually, academically formative, and maybe that's the way it's supposed to be. But it was all lined up on a. What side are you on? And it went from our colleague, charlie Miller, his father. He talked about Synod X and Synod Y. Well, you know, we would then line up on that and we talked about confessional and moderates and then we lined up on that axis. And now we've lined up on the one of mission and confessional and we've lined up on that axis and it's like if we don't stand against something, we're not standing for something. I've read some things that would suggest that that's just part of being German, herr Almond und Herr Klinkenberg, and this is in our DNA, but it's not been good for the church.
Speaker 3:I look in Orange County and I think you know if we could leverage the commonalities that we have, my gosh. I met with a group of people from Mariners years ago and I said, hey, what are you guys doing in Santa Ana? And they said, well, yet, but we have to rent our facilities. And I said, well, we've got a congregation in Santa Ana that has facilities that may be open to you. Well, that, in our district, all throughout inner city LA, all up into Ventura County, into Vegas and Phoenix, you know, like Mount Calvary, I mean, we've got property there that I mean. But it takes working together, right, and when we're playing defense it's hard to work together. We're so fearful, impensive about what could be and taking risk and all of that stuff. It's kind of painful.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it is the body of Christ metaphor extends to the pastoral office and we have unique gifts. I mean Ephesians four, I believe all of the, you know, apostle, prophet, evangelist, preacher, teacher, I believe that's all kind of under that office of holy ministry.
Speaker 2:But yet there's some unique gifts within that five full, you know, gifting that many people talk about, and I talked to J O, price and Spirit now rest with the Lord my teacher, yeah, I mean he was just so good in talking about our need to not just disagree agreeably but build, build consensus across different gifts or personalities, and I I've said this for a long period of time I think it's more sociological. Right now I'm talking to with guys that are across that spectrum. Right now, tim and I'm finding like, I like this guy like I trust.
Speaker 2:I want to trust this guy in his local context and I would. I would hope that over time our relationship deepens, where the trust moves my way as well. And if there are things we're doing that, oh, that's a little. We sit down like brothers and we talk about it and we don't, we don't gossip, we don't, you know, break break the eight, nine, 10 commandment consistently, that that we just build those relationships, especially I've talked about this a lot, tim especially within our circuit. Man, we can do so much better in our, in our circuit, building those lines of trust. You know, st John does this and I don't know what the other churches. St Paul's is great at this and and then there's kind of this and I don't like using the word brand necessarily, but it's what people are saying about the LCMS churches in that area man, they work together, they are going on mission. Look at how they meet the felt needs within Orange County. Wouldn't it be great if that's how our churches were known, rather than than in fighting and division?
Speaker 3:Is that a pipe dream? I hope that's not a pipe dream. I think you know. You know God works things together for good and maybe, maybe we won't rely on one another and create those partnerships until we have to. And it seems like, at least with what we're fighting in the culture in California. I mean, you see, your brother pastor, you give him a big hug.
Speaker 3:I've got my friend Kevin Kreitzer out in Long Beach.
Speaker 3:Every time Kevin and I have lunch together go to a little taco place at Belaterra. It's just so heartfelt and and we need one another, maybe not programmatically but spiritually friendships, relationships, and maybe that's what God is leading us towards that Both sides will kind of dissolve away and what will be left is this marvelous piece of let's work together. Even my buddy up in Yorba, linda, at a church that's good size, much twice the size of St John's, but every time we sit and talk, we don't talk competitively about you know, what are you running and what's your budget and all that stuff. Talk about how you're doing and how's your heart and where you add. And he can, he might be a better golfer than you, he's a scratch golfer to come out with Matthew, but it just seems there's this driving together of like-minded people and I probably won't realize that as senior pastor at St John's but I sure hope you do, brother I can see that happening out of necessity. Rather than use the word organic, it may be organic rather than programmatic and completely planned out.
Speaker 2:Yeah that would be awesome too, by the way. It would be and I think it will be in the Lord's time, because the Lord now the Lord doesn't need us. He can do whatever he wants to do, with or without the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. For sure the world needs confessing, united, kind, hospitable.
Speaker 1:Lutheran.
Speaker 2:Church, missouri Synod, and I pray that's how we can continue to evolve into that more up into Jesus, who is our head? More on that, tim. Yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 3:Well, and the idea of biblical authority. What Lutheran Church, missouri Synod Lutherans bring is biblical authority. We believe the Bible is the Word of God and the only rule of faith in life. No one else believes that. I mean, brother, we're antiques. I just loved when they would say that at full or they'd say, okay, clink, you believe the Bible is the Word of God. What does this mean?
Speaker 3:And we had a Pentecostal guy, not a like Lutherans will say, oh, that's a Pentecostal, he's not a real Pentecostal, it is kind of you know, fluffy, but a real Pentecostal. He'd say, like God is leading me for a chili cheeseburger for lunch today. I like Matthias man, calm down, but just the idea of biblical authority. And then I don't know if you watch the the Pride marches the last month, absolutely that. What we can speak into, that is Lutherans with kindness, but with strength and conviction, instead of being like reactionary evangelicals or dismissive liberal mainline people. We have a beautiful spot right of center. That's right. That, I think, is what the culture is desperately looking for. Who says, well, the Bible says, well, why? Well, okay, let's talk about that, right, I can help you with that. That's where our new member classes, we morph, those I mean, we went from what we call photo Mount Lutheran classes, which is you drive in and you drive out and you're Lutheran, to a seven week hour and a half. We have no attrition on those, tim, yep, yep.
Speaker 2:Man we used to. I think people are wanting right now way more depth, theological, the big, the big questions. Where is God in the midst of these things? Why do bad things? I mean, it's all the stuff we learned at the cemetery Like people actually ask you, the world appears to be unraveling.
Speaker 2:The world appears. What am I to make of this? Well, it's kind of part of the story toward the end times, you know. I mean there's just so much opportunity for great theological conversations and people in my people are hungry. Man, help me, help me disciple my kids.
Speaker 2:Like I'm walking through like real time right now is Tim here I'm walking through life discipling three teenagers a 16, 15 and a 13 year old. This is boundaries as it relates to social media and use the phone and tech and all that stuff. Like I, my wife and I will love for the next gen to come down and just put their arm around our shoulder and care for us. And how did I then cast vision for my kids lives connected to how God, god made them their unique gifts as they become unfolded. Like there's so much opportunity for cross generational theological conversation right now that if we can, if we can just say and pastors just have to lead with great humility, I think they man there's.
Speaker 2:I know I know a little bit about a little bit as it relates to kind of scripture and systematic theology and stuff. But how that gets lived out in a changing culture today, a diverse ideologies coming at me. Man, I need, I need the entirety, the breadth of the body of Christ to speak, to show up and show off. So, yeah, it's such a such an exciting time, I think, to be a leader within our church and within our church body. So you were one of the nominees for LCMS president about four years ago. Things changed in recent, in the recent election, we had five men who were nominated at your year and that had been 2019, you were one of three. You, along with Dair Meyer, right and then obviously president.
Speaker 2:Harrison, what was that journey like? Tell us about that experience walking into saying here I am Lord. If you, if you choose to call me, I'll serve. What was that?
Speaker 3:like I went kicking and screaming with some friends and they said you got to do this and I said I don't want to do this. I said it's just really hard and I'm not a. I'm like you a little bit with my lineage. I mean, we go back to Carl Rudolph Klingkeberg came over from Neu and Dettlesau, he was a, he was a winnican guy and so that's where my heart beats for the Lutheran Church Missouri Senate.
Speaker 3:But the organizational side of the Lutheran Church Missouri Senate as hard for me I struggled with that, the it's not happy. It brings on I'm sure president Harrison and and Dr Meyer Dale, dr Meyer David and and probably Dr Ferry could tell you the same thing that it kind of brings out some the worst in people. I didn't do anything this last election of meetings and counting votes and all that stuff, because it just brought out a bad part of my personality. So I got some horrible letters during that presidential thing, emails and stuff, and I'm like man, you don't even know me and you're critical of me. Okay, you know, stay in California.
Speaker 3:The opportunity to speak and have a bigger platform is fantastic, and so I've had to carry myself with a little bit of a more measured conversation rather than just Tim Klingenberg spouting off. But it also helped me to connect nationally with some guys who I would have never done that once. A pastor up in Cheyenne, wyoming, and he's just a good guy Now he would never. I mean he's close to communion and Lutheran service book and all that stuff. But I would have never connected with him and become friends had it not been for that and some of that's cool. But I'm pretty convinced that my role is here in Orange and God has not put an opportunity for me to lead nationally. I lost district president. I was how about that man? That was a rough two years. Everything I had my name on I lost. I guess that was God telling me something too.
Speaker 2:Well, he gets him telling you you're a parish pastor, bro.
Speaker 3:Amen brother which is the most noble task there is, so I'm good with that.
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 3:I have a question for you. You are one of the guys at the last convention who got up with great courage and there was a couple of times where you could see the chairman of the convention kind of roll his eyes as you came to the microphone. You're just sitting to the left of me and I go, there goes, there goes faster. All of them again. Well, how, where's your? You have so much courage. When I stood up at that microphone and spoke, my hands were shaking, my voice was screaming. You just stood up and brought it right on and I just appreciated your leadership, the questions you asked, the clarity brought. Your love for our church body is unmatched and I really appreciate that in you. What do you anticipate as we go to Milwaukee in the weeks ahead?
Speaker 2:Well, thanks for the kind words. I don't know where that came from. Honestly, I'm not a challenger in terms of my personality, I'm not huge into the Enneagram Tim, but I've been on stages and in front of folks.
Speaker 2:So the three, the performer kind of who is the lights go on or the, you know play starts, and I can kind of kind of do that. So I guess it's just a little bit of that. Okay, here we got another, another mic which is in front of a lot of people, but I'm doing stuff in front of lots of people.
Speaker 2:Anyhow. So I guess that's where that. So how do we? How do we just maintain calm and clarity and, hopefully, a sense of kindness and courage, all wrapped up into asking what I think need to be questions that are asked, and a lot of times they don't get asked, for whatever reason, and I, being a systems guy, tim, no one person or one group of people are the enemy or the problem. I pray for President Harrison, I pray for all who are in his kind of cabinet, for regional vice presidents, the Presidium and all the district presidents, but what I know is that the level of of trust and collegiality needs to, we need to get closer together so that we can again disagree agreeably and hopefully we model that at at the convention around the topics of Concordia's, around the topic of the need for workers. You know those are going to be around the topic of how the church speaks with one voice to the issues of the day. You know how we do so with with love and and truth. So I just am a very small part of hopefully bringing back, yes, connection to scripture, but just reason and and love, and and we shouldn't be, we shouldn't be shy about asking questions One of the big questions for me right now is I'd love for synodical leadership to have clarity around the amount of churches that are in need of a pastor right now.
Speaker 2:Like, I want to know that actual number and the amount of churches. And this is you got to kind of round this out because it's the Lord's church and some may have a longer go but like, what does that number look like in the next 10 years? And and how then could some creative ways to raise up local leaders accommodate that? And what I'm concerned about as I look at maybe the SMP, some of the restrictions around SMP being narrowed in, and then really from floor, committee six really saying it's, it's, it is residential seminary education. It is the only thing we do and and to which I say I love it, I'm great with it, but show me the numbers, show me the numbers of the pastors that we're going to need right now to serve the church and what we're going to need. And then, what's your plan actually to make that happen?
Speaker 2:And I don't know that there is a strategic plan to to send enough men to the seminary right now. I think we need a buffer state and so we're just run, running a test right now I do get interested and curious about how, in the next three years or so, there could be groups that come and start to explore, hopefully with kindness and and curiosity rather than condemnation, because what we're doing right now testing, raising up local leaders I don't want it to kill the seminary what do you do? What do you do to change an organization, tim? You do a new thing within an existing thing and right now, because of the structures within the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, we don't have like strategic changes, especially as it relates to formation are in committee and then you have a paper that comes out three years later.
Speaker 2:It gets debated what, the way we've set ourselves up does not allow for us to pivot as fast as the world is changing right now, and I think it's just wrestling with that and and having honest, collegial conversation around. I want a highly trained, theologically trained pastorate. This is a huge thing for the future of the church. We're really just talking about the how. We're really just talking about the how and and then and then. I'd love for the how to be more than just institutional preservation. It needs to be more about the needs of the local church. So I said a lot there.
Speaker 1:But those are some of my general thoughts going in.
Speaker 2:Anything to add?
Speaker 3:I think you're right on and I think structure needs to serve the mission rather than be the mission. We just redid right I I mentioned some stuff. We we ran under the when we had COVID and we had time we redid all the, all the bylaws and constitution of our and the articles of incorporation which we haven't changed since World War II. That's a big deal. You know. We updated all that stuff and we had a guy do it and he had been on the federal election commission brilliant attorney. Actually. He's got like a a new job doing constitutions and bylaws for everybody in Orange County.
Speaker 3:But the drum structure serves mission. It's structure is not the mission and I think a little bit of of where we're at as a denomination is that we serve the structure. The structure doesn't serve us and I don't know about you, but I don't feel like congregations like ours and men like us have much of a say. I'm anticipating going to the Milwaukee convention and losing 60, 40 every single time. I'm anticipating losing almost every election, but for me it's the collegiality I'm going to call it a reality.
Speaker 3:People and love people and be kind and introduce guys who don't know one another that I mutually know to one another and just be right, be that salt and light in that setting rather than be a bad guy. So that's kind of what I see is just be kind and work together and those things, because the structure I mean, brother, you and I have been there that thing is structured to be a steamroller over our ideas. That's okay, got all straightened that out. That's not unless.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's exactly right, and I don't. I love what you just said.
Speaker 2:I don't want to be a bad guy If all pastors and laymen went and just said I don't want to be a bad guy like I can have my ideas, but I just, lord Jesus, by the power of your Holy Spirit, helped me not, not to be bad, because the structure, the we don't have a house in a Senate right now, the way, the way votes go, especially for a synodical president, those of us that have larger than average congregations, our voices, the same as a congregation with 20 to 30 people on a weekend. So I really our denomination, and this is my experience based on a lot of these conversations the gap is not that, not that wide right now.
Speaker 2:We may have some nuances. It relates to worship. We're all liturgical. Some of us have more modern expressions, but invocation through the benediction, confession, absolution, the prayers of the church, I mean we're, we're all doing that. We agree to the general structure of the liturgy. We got some conversations around women and we've always had that, you know. And then it's, it's wine, women and song.
Speaker 1:I mean it's kind of race and repeat on a lot of that.
Speaker 2:And that goes back multiple generations. So we're just continuing to add and hopefully we're, we're moving more toward the middle that extreme voices I would rather not, you know, be that one of those extreme voices just moving more toward the middle around those three topics, but then also the topic, which obviously is a passion of mine, of leadership development. Again, I hope that is, that we use much more reason and recognize that this is Adiaphora. The way we do it is Adiaphora, it's not scripture in the confessions. So yeah, it's fascinating.
Speaker 3:If I was, if I was elected Senate President, say last week and I had right, y'all's got a few chips. Your first couple free chips, my first couple free chips would be building relationships. I'd bring disparate groups to St Louis. I'd sit in that Waltha room. I'd do some team building exercises. I'd put them in a casual setting. I'd say no Hawaiian shirts and no collars. Right, I'd say you got it, we're not wearing our uniforms, we're just going to get to know one another. And then we all adjourned at Ted Drew's later in the evening, after after dinner.
Speaker 3:And I think some of that can be done at the convention. But I think part of that is the burden of leadership, and leadership, at least as far as I've witnessed, hasn't done too much of that. And that's okay, right, I don't lose sleep over that. But if I'm in, right, I'm a people focused leader in a systems guy like you are. So how do we build a system of relationships and people in a way that there's a place in the table for anyone? I get a little resentful when I sign the form for the check. We do it all online for the convention assessment. I'm like oh, what vote? And we just sent you 60 grant. Okay, you can come to the party, we'll pay for it, and you can tell me that I'm a heretic. Great, that's the system. That's not going to happen.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it could be, but you know, the invitation to President Harrison right now and those that are in his respective cabinet, those that that you would lean in this season more into differing voices at the table, all within the confessional family of faith and the Lutheran Church of McZurray Synod, that, if that's not been done in the past with I which I don't know if it has or hasn't like we can learn new things. We can learn new things.
Speaker 3:At the very beginning President Harrison had, there was maybe six or eight of us in the Walther Room and it was okay, but nothing ever came from it. Right, and I had to laugh. You have a big Lutheran school, we have a big Lutheran school and my, my Lutheran school. I mean, we're the only Apple distinguished Lutheran elementary school and Lutheran Church of Missouri Synod. Nothing, that's crickets. Yeah, that's okay. Right, I don't need that pad on the back, but we're just going to keep playing offense at our church. We're going to keep moving the ball down the field.
Speaker 2:Amen, last question here. This has been so fun, tim, thank you, love you and we could go forever, brother, we really could. So there's a lot of conversation right now about Concordia University System, the 703, which, if anybody's listening, the 703 is now the conversation around Concordia, texas, and 704 has been differentiated as the conversation around restructuring of the C U S and and bringing all the presidents together and maybe creating that Concordia educational, ifc, em or something.
Speaker 2:There's so many acronyms I don't have it right in front of me right right now, but what are your thoughts, because you're intimately connected. Concordia, irvine, michael Thomas, what's going on there? What are your hopes for the C U S conversation?
Speaker 3:My sense is there has to be some flexibility. There's been a lot of conversation about Kingdom of the left and Kingdom of the right. Again, that's theological conversation. I don't think that's ever as neat in an organization as someone would think. I think that the people on the ground in the institution have a greater, wider understanding of what's going on in and through the institution than an outfit that's 12, 1500 miles away. Again, the idea of playing offense, I think, is where the Concordias are More enrollment, more kids, more Kingdom impact, better professors, better teachers, better programs, better facilities, all of those pieces.
Speaker 3:And the idea that they have to kind of back out of a frontline fight and come back and play defense in their own camp, I think is frustrating to them. It's been a ridiculous amount of meetings and I know that firsthand. They have met and met and met and met, and met, and met and met, and I think you've got to provide parameters that are reasonable, within which everyone can agree, or that they can negotiate where not to agree and say, okay, we're good. But I think that could happen informally among the Concordias and the people at the International Center, rather than have to be a big fracas of arguing and fighting from the floor of a convention. Again, a healthy system, a healthy sociological system in our denomination would allow them to sit together and say, okay, here's our issues, let's talk it out.
Speaker 3:I'm not privy to whether that's happened or not. My sense is that it hasn't. So I think that Concordias don't need to be independent, but they need to be more self-governing. Does that make sense? They need to be able to make their own decisions on site rather than have to continually go back to St Louis or whatnot to say. Is this Lutheran enough? But I know that Concordias are profound blessing to Southern California, even culturally. What they do with music and worship and training and students and events and I mean our Concordia University Irvine is a marvelous blessing to us. Unreal.
Speaker 2:It really is, I wonder. We're pretty strict policy governance here, tim, meaning our board, the owners of the congregation set policy in which I interpret how we're staying within that respective policy, either toward the ends achieving the ends. So I got a reasonable interpretation that the board kind of signs off on and then I get to give metrics that show how we're achieving that ends or, with the limitations, staying within those boundaries. I think there's something to learn here that gives clarity about what those boundaries are and hopefully we keep them wide, connected to scripture and the confessions, and then give our presidents and their teams or board of regents the ability to say this is how we're living that out. And then it's negotiated in conversation with people you love and trust and respect. That's how it works between, say, a pastor and a board or a president and another entity of Synod who have certain theological kingdom of the right, you could say responsibility.
Speaker 2:I would love to see more clarity along those lines, rather than no respective policy and then this kind of arguing around how Lutheran are you around? Lutheran ethos or Lutheran values or Lutheran identity, whatever. That means we're throwing out all these words and unless you define those words and centermen policy and actually give the respective person an opportunity to define how they're interpreting what you're asking of them. We're gonna have this kind of because what a good policy does is it depersonalizes, it's not just hey, trust me, I'm a good guy.
Speaker 2:Well, no, no, we're not gonna do that. Show me your interpretation and then we'll have conversation and really some collective negotiation around that and then achieve those ends of, because I think it's so arbitrary. And we say we need 60% of our university filled with LCMS faculty.
Speaker 3:Well, maybe, but that's gotta be negotiated man based on your context, you know it's so subjective.
Speaker 2:So yeah, I think there's something to learn from a more strict understanding of policy governance. I'm not saying it needs to be completely adapted, but I don't think we live with that sort of a clarity, with that sort of clarity and the relationship, at least, between the Concordia's and the CUS. Any thoughts there, tim, am I on? I don't know if I'm onto something but it.
Speaker 3:I think so. I think what makes policy governance work, and we're not as strict as you guys on that. We call ours the accountability model, but it's similar and it means I can't go off half-cocked and do whatever I want and the board can't make me do things that are unethical or whatnot, but that all operates at the speed of trust. And one of the things that limits us as a denomination is there's not a lot of trust one for another and you know what. Honestly, that probably goes back to the 70s and the walkout. I hope that your generation of guys will be able to move on from that and build relationships of trust. I mean, michael Thomas is an unbelievably kind, loving, industrious, creative leader. He's brought so much vitality to Concordia in the last two years. It's been amazing. And how they handled COVID in California and with accreditation unreal, spectacular.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, so I do.
Speaker 3:I think trust is kind of an issue and our boundaries for our policy-based governance stuff. They're drawn reasonably and they're assessed too. When we redid the constitution we said, okay, where's your policy manual? Let's go Well, you know, maybe the CUS is the keeper of the policy manual. And they say, okay, where are we at? Let's sit and hammer this out. Is this still relevant? We've moved enormous parts of our bylaws out because they were irrelevant.
Speaker 2:You know, I think one of the misnomers as people listen is that you're proposing a renegade, you know, do whatever. No, no, no, no. Just identify what those respective boundaries are and we'll play ball there for sure. There just needs to be greater clarity, you know. So, yeah, we'll see how Synod Convention goes. It's gonna be fascinating. I do lament with you. I think those Seminex wounds are still real in your generation and slightly older, and those are, you know, folks who are in your generation. They're the ones that are sitting in a lot of those respective seats. The Presidium, it's not entirely filled with a lot of people that are in my generation. Gen X, obviously, millennials are coming up and there's a number of really, really vibrant leaders who, I think, live in this kind of middle space man and we don't necessarily we want to lead out of scripture and reason to steward the resources, mostly the people that God has entrusted to us in the Lutheran Church of Missouri Synod. But by and large, I don't think we're at the table and those wounds still cripple trust.
Speaker 3:And that happened in my generation too, where we you know our colleagues who we conference with we said, hey, you got to start building your bench. You got to start building your bench and the previous administration never built the bench and the result of that is what we have now. I'm not sure that the ruling guys now, I'm not sure they have much of a bench either, but there certainly are some fine, fine leaders like yourself and in your generation who lead with distinction and courage and conviction of your theological convictions. And I would like the Presidium especially, and even the district, the COP, to represent a broader swath, age wise than it does. And just, I don't know, it's all old guys and I'm 59, I would be one of the younger guys. It's just funny.
Speaker 2:Well, let's close with hope. Man, I don't want to close with CUS. Paint me the best picture possible. Say you're moving into a new season of refinement. A decade from now, tim, what would you hope? The culture of the Missouri Synod that people would say about the culture of the Missouri Synod? Close with hope.
Speaker 3:Oh, I love that. That's a great question. The idea for me is that the vitality of the Lutheran Church of Missouri Synod is in the congregations. So as congregations reach new people, stratify successful ministries, dispatch stuff that's not working, that more and more people would know the Lord Jesus. And that's what we would be known for is kindness and courage maybe, but not the stupid courage that just runs into machine gun fire, but a measured courage that isn't so risk averse that we would look and say how it might lose a million dollars here. But we'll take a chance on this because I think that would be awesome and I think that's what it's winnowing down to, and I think you're going to be the beneficiary of that. District President and Pastor Tim Almond, that would be awesome.
Speaker 3:I would, I could give my eyes to that, but I think, as your generation of guys takes leadership, it's going to be great for the denomination. It'll breathe new life in, it'll add vitality. We won't sit and nitpick on one another. We like to say that rather than doing things right. We like to do the right thing, and I would think if the Missouri Synod could get in that posture where, instead of saying well, we got to mark the checkbox and say hey, we got to do the right thing, and that would be very hopeful. That would change the entire conversation.
Speaker 3:But I think the best days are coming and part of it is the winnowing that's going on now, which is so painful, but God will bring as he always has right. I don't know if you listen to the Hallow app. Do you listen to that with Father Mike? No, tell me, it's so good, it's a Bible in a year and it's a priest from Duluth. It's a high-zooed app. I think it cost me like 50 bucks. I'm like 50 bucks for an app of your nuts. I know, huh, that's four bucks, but it's a little bit of scripture every day and it's just been so good for the soul. It's not, it doesn't lean to the left or lean to the right, but it's inspirational and that kind of stuff. I believe that's the best selling app on both the platforms the Apple Store and the other one. I think.
Speaker 3:When you commented about where people are at, I think that's where people are at and as the church learns to pivot on that not necessarily being the sole dispensary of the truth, but leading people to the truth I think good days, good days are ahead, man, and that's go ahead it. We're out of the time of the 60s, 70s, 80s, evangelical church growth, donald MacGaver and Kenny Callahan, all that stuff. That's all dead and that's good. And now we're into the building up of people time rather than building up a program, and that's very, very hopeful and joyful for a pastor. Right, I've got a baptism this Sunday of a name I have to figure out how to pronounce. It's not Alman or Klingenberg, right, it's a Latino name. I got to figure it out so I don't butcher the middle name. Check it out on a selly. I got to figure it out, but that's the best thing in the world.
Speaker 2:It's the best thing, and it's all about the people of God, the baptized, and this goes back to our reformation. The great reformation ruts right Getting the word of God into people's ears. That they talk about going back to the Old Testament, talk about the Lord, the goodness of the Lord, when they rise, as they go about their day, when they go to bed. That our homes are saturated with the word of God and that the fruit of the Spirit then flows out of that saturation in the word, with our eyes firmly fixed upon Jesus. You know Just more of that and more stories of just hope and love and joy and life transformation, like not just Synod leaderships but pastors.
Speaker 2:Man, just tell stories of the Lord at work and your congregation and see how that takes you above the fray of the petty divisiveness that the evil one wants to seed and destroy within our congregations. Because, man, that's hope filled. That's what the church has to offer in the midst of a dying culture in which we live, a depressed culture in which we live. It's the hope of the Lord, tim. This has been so fun, bro, last comment.
Speaker 3:Go ahead. This is easy compared to what Solomon left and this is easy compared to what David went through. And you read those stories and you listen to the thing of the Baals. I mean my gosh, if Pride Month isn't a celebration of Baal animistic worship, my gosh. And God is faithful in all of that stuff. God is right. He led us to Jesus too. A virgin will conceive and bear a son. That was the sign. Okay, let's roll. Now let's roll. You know the Old Testament stuff so filled with. Right now we're doing Hosea in the app and you're like that was pretty bad. Oh my God, it's faithful, right, yes, amen faithful to the Son of God.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for listening to the Latter.
Speaker 3:On. I sure appreciate you Appreciate our friendship.
Speaker 2:Likewise, likewise. This has been fun. If people want to connect with you, to Tim, how can they do so?
Speaker 3:Email is good. I'll give you my short one PRTIM15 at gmailcom. I'm good at getting back and happy to do that Again. Our website is wwwsaintchanceorangeorg and you can check out any stuff on there and I'll be happy to interact with anybody. I got time, I'm good.
Speaker 2:Amen, amen. And Tim, I don't know, I know you've heard hard things from other people. You kind of, in passing, drop hair. You are not a heretic, you're a passionate pastor who loves the Lord and loves bringing his word to his people through Word and sacrament. And just continue on faithfully serving the Lord and dreaming new dreams. Old men can dream new dreams to reach new people with the gospel.
Speaker 2:You're not an old man. You got many, many years left, so keep getting after it. It's a good day. Go and make it a great day. This is lead time. We're setting up conversations with people like Pastor Tim, thinking of Pastor Christian Preuss getting after it in Casper, wyoming and everywhere in between. These days we need more conversations that are long form. Leading is not a simple. It is all about relationships. So that's why we're letting these podcasts go on for a bit and I pray you take that long journey with a brother or sister in Christ that you're like, wow, we may see the world slightly different. Get to know them, love them. Go on a journey to make Jesus known with them, not despite them. Jesus loves you so much. We'll be back next week with lead time. Thank you so much, tim. Thanks, tim.
Speaker 1:You've been listening to Lead Time, a podcast of the Unite Leadership Collector. The ULC's mission is to collaborate with the local church to discover, develop and deploy leaders through biblical Lutheran doctrine and innovative methods To partner with us in this gospel message. Subscribe to our channel, then go to theunitel leadershiporg to create your free login for exclusive material and resources and then to explore ways in which you can sponsor an episode. Thanks for listening and stay tuned for next week's episode.