Lead Time
Lead Time
Navigating Burnout and Stress in Church Leadership with Rev. Dick Koehneke
Today we're joined by Reverend Dick Koehneke, an experienced voice and guiding force in the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. Reverend Koehneke sheds light on his conviction that God calls us to be faithful to whatever is put before us, a belief he nurtured through his admirable journey serving in various congregations, his tenure at the Commission on Ministerial Growth and Support, and his involvement with the LCMS Ministerial Care Coalition.
Dedicated to the cause of church worker wellness, Reverend Koehneke helps us identify the significant threats that church workers face in their journey - spiritual attack, burnout, temptation, and isolation. We discuss the crucial role of preventive strategies in mitigating these threats, with special focus on the importance of staying rooted in God's word and prayer and maintaining accountability with peers. The episode takes an insightful turn as we look into the distinction between guilt and shame, and how they shape a church worker's life.
Our conversation goes on to highlight the importance of setting clear expectations in a congregation and how it can prevent burnout among church workers. Reverend Koehneke shares his own experiences with a Board of Elders who provided clarity and security during his tenure. We also touch upon the relatively less discussed topic of secondary traumatic stress in pastoral care, underscoring the need for pastors to seek preventive care. Don't miss out on this enlightening episode, rich with wisdom and insights beneficial for anyone involved in church leadership.
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Leigh Time is a podcast of the Unite Leadership Collective, hosted by Tim Ollman and Jack Calliberg. The ULC envisages the future in which all congregations fully equip the priesthood of all the leavers through world-class leadership development at the local level. Leigh Time taps into biblical wisdom for practical solutions to today's burning issues. Each podcast confronts real-time struggles facing the local church in a post-Christian culture. Step into the action with the ULC at UniteLeadershiporg. This is Leigh Time.
Speaker 2:Welcome to Leigh Time, tim Ollman, here with Jack Calliberg. I pray that the joy of the Lord is your strength and that you're ready to buckle up because we have an amazing conversation set up for you today with Reverend Dick Canakie. Now I wanna tell you a little bit about this brother served. He's a product of the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, been through kind of the system, has served faithfully in a number of congregations. Most of his, a lot of his ministry has been at Holy Cross Lutheran Church in Fort Wayne, indiana, shout out to Concordia Theological Seminary there in Fort Wayne. And then he's been serving a number of different leaders throughout the Missouri Synod, specifically in the commission on ministerial growth and support. And when you were connected to us by Paul Zills, who's been a guest of ours here Paul talks a lot around governance Paul reached out and said you have to read what Dick has written regarding church worker wellness and really building healthy church culture. You had me at health and culture and let alone you're a Lutheran Church.
Speaker 2:Missouri Synod product who served faithfully for so many years, Dick. So thank you so much for being on Lead Time Today. How you doing, brother?
Speaker 3:I'm doing great. It's a joy, a pleasure and a privilege to be with you, tim and Jack, and thank God for this opportunity. I'm really looking forward to it. It's a precious gift this time with you, so I thank the Lord for it. I thank the Lord for both of you. God bless you in this important work you're doing.
Speaker 2:Thank you Right back at you, brother. So let's start out. How did you develop that passion for church worker wellness?
Speaker 3:Well, you know, it's really interesting how God will open doors that we're not even expecting to be open or not even looking at. You know, and just real, parenthetically, real quickly, I'm a third generation LCMS pastor too. My dad and his dad were pastors and both got involved in higher education as well, at the collegiate level. So, yeah, that's, we go back a ways. So, yeah, I got it started when I don't know if you remember this, but there was the organization of the group called PALS, post seminary, applied learning and support. Pals Was in 1998. And that was started out of the commission on ministerial growth and support, which at that time was led by Bruce Hartung, dr Bruce Hartung.
Speaker 3:And so our district president here in Indiana nominated me to be a facilitator of a PALS group in that first wave of PALS. You know groupings forming. So I said, yeah, I'll do that. I mean, I didn't know what it was, Nobody knew what it was, it'd never been done before. So so Bruce Hartung did a training of summer of 98. And I facilitated a group of pastors here in Northeast Indiana for three years, 99 through 01. It was wonderful. We developed a deep, close relationship and it was a great three years. And the PALS initiative really is something excellent. I mean, that's to help pastors make the transition from seminary to congregational life, to real, the real world, so to speak, and it was great. And so at that point then in 01, a couple of things happened, and you stop me if I'm going on too long, okay but this is great, I love it.
Speaker 3:What happened then in 01 was that I had been asked to serve as a mentor pastor with Pastoral Leadership Institute, which was also organized by 1998 or nine. So I had to say no, because I was doing the PALS thing at that time. But in 01, I said, okay, I'd like to be a mentor pastor with the Pastoral Leadership Institute, now known as PLI, if you still want me. And Norb Ash, who did the leadership of that, said, yeah, we want you, you know so. So I came on board with PLI and at that same time Dr Jerry Kishnik had just been like the president of Synod and he asked me if I would serve on the commission on ministerial growth and support of Synod. So that happened in 01.
Speaker 3:So all these things are, you know, like I said, the Lord opens doors we're not even looking at. You know, he has a way of doing things that are so surprising. I think my philosophy is that he's calling us to be faithful to whatever he puts in front of us right now, today, with always realizing he may change our direction at any time. You know he can. He can move us as he sees fit. I don't know if you ever heard this saying, but it's a lot easier to get a ship going that's already moving and to redirect it. Redirect a ship that's already moving than to get one going that's dead in the water. So you know, I think God wants us to be moving in some direction or other, and so he can redirect us. So, anyway, then in 2010, the commission was disbanded, along with a number of others, in the Synod reorganization, and then in 2013, out of the Concordia Health Plan, dr David Minch Pastor David Minch formed something called the LCMS Ministerial Care Coalition, which was representatives from all the districts coming together annually for a gathering to reinforce one another, learn from one another, share best practices and so forth and so on with each other. So that came about and I served on that for 10 years and I just decided just recently that it was time to give somebody else a chance to do that. So I have decided that I'll step away from the Ministerial Care Coalition at this point. But it was a great experience to you guys. That was wonderful.
Speaker 3:And Tiffany Manor, Dr Deaconess. Tiffany Manor leads that now at the Synodical level and she's doing a great job. And Steve Grunwald with Concordia Health Plan also. Those two are pretty much the leaders right now of the Ministerial Care Coalition.
Speaker 3:So that's how one thing leads to another. Right God is always. He's up to way more than we realize and he's always preparing us for something that we don't even know. We don't even know what it is, but we realize what somebody said life is lived. Looking forward, but it's understood. Looking back and I think that that is so true I can see, looking back now, things that experiences that the Lord was giving me and not all of them were pleasant experiences, but that we're helping to shape me to be more sensitive to what's going on with church workers. You know, you go through your own struggles and you find out what works and what doesn't, and what helps and what hurts. You know, and if you survive, you learn how, maybe something I've learned, something that might be able to help somebody else. So, yeah, so that's kind of the way, the way it worked.
Speaker 3:And then, finally, and another thing that just in 2014, I was asked if I would serve as the coordinator of a new initiative in Northeast Indiana called Caring for the Called, and it's it was funded by the Lutheran Foundation here in Northeast Indiana. I didn't ask for it, I didn't seek it. They came to me and said would you do this? We want to do this. So for six years, ending in 2020, right before COVID that was when this came to a close, so it was very interesting timing there. But and for six years I did that and I ended up working with 43 congregations in Northeast Indiana, with pastors and deaconesses, teachers, dces and, very importantly and very uniquely, almost lay leaders lay leaders in those 43 congregations talking to them about what, what church workers need in order to stay healthy and well so that they continue can continue to serve well and for a long time. So it's really in congregations best interest to take good care of their workers because they get they get better.
Speaker 3:They get better work out of their workers for a longer time if they take good care of their workers.
Speaker 3:You know so, my question always to lay leaders was you know we I know you encourage hard work, can we? How can we encourage self care as much as we encourage hard work? And that that got a lot of puzzled looks when I would ask that question, because people had never actually thought about that very much. But, you know, and some congregations began to find ways to do that. So God bless them. You know, and we talked to church workers to about caring for themselves, and so it was. That was a great experience too. So, yeah, that's been a blessing.
Speaker 2:So, so good. Thank you for your faithful service and your love and sensitivity. Having served at the local level, you know what is needed and you know how the congregation at large can kind of exceed expectations for those who are, are the called and some who are the ordained minister of the ministers of the word, I've had a. I've had a little bit of a struggle of late with the word professional or the phrase professional church worker because of the elevation of kind of the paid and called over the ordained and I think right now one of the. I think we're imbalanced in the Lutheran Church of Missouri Synod on the office of Holy Ministry and the priesthood of all believers. So all of the baptized are church workers right out in their various vocations. It's just that some happen to be called for respective leadership leadership roles.
Speaker 2:I know what we mean when we say church worker well-being, but I think language also also matters. But thank you for holistically caring for congregations, lay leaders and those who are called and ordained. Any response to that? As I kind of talk about kind of the professional church worker hierarchy and then kind of everybody else, this is what we pay you to do. Is there anything as it relates to the ethos, the culture of churches, calling these people to do the work that in your, your work in caring for those who are called, you really wanted to help, help dismiss or help lay leaders understand more fully. Anything to add to that, dick?
Speaker 3:Yeah, thank you for asking that question. I guess what comes to my mind. First of all, when I presented to lay leaders which you typically my major presentation was a two hour meeting with lay leaders. I could be at a church council or board of directors or board of elders. Those were one of those three or some combination. There was the ones I met with when I said to them you are also church leaders, you also work in the Lord's service.
Speaker 3:So what we're going to say here in these next two hours, you may well hear some things that can apply to you and your own well being, because you are subject to the same attacks that a pastor or teacher or principal is, because anybody who's leading God's church has a target on his or her back Okay, as far as Satan is concerned. So that's one thing I know. I'm the leaders. So you know we tried to make that clear right up front. Secondly, I found I came away from this Tim and Jack with. I had gone into it with a great appreciation of lay leaders from Mike for my experiences in pastoral ministry. You know four congregations, 38 years. I told lay leaders when I met with them I said I have to confess to you that I have a bias going into this meeting and my bias is that I think the world of you. I have a ton of respect for you.
Speaker 3:That's my bias and you're going to have to work really hard to convince me not to do that not to feel that way, because I really, I really respect you people, okay, and so what I found was that I guess let's put it this way they were very receptive and I came away with an even greater, even greater appreciation for the lay leaders of these congregations in Northeast Indiana Okay, 43. Now, having said that, the number of LCMS congregations in Northeast Indiana is, I think right now it's 61, I think we were 62, but one closed not too long ago. So that means there were 18 congregations that didn't really want me to come. So what I'm saying, I think that, and that's their right, that's their right, some of them, I think, what I can understand in several cases where they felt we're just so small, we're just so small, we have a part-time pastor, we have only 25 people in worship, do we really? We don't really think you need to take your time to come here. And I would try to convince them that I did. They didn't have to pay me, I was paid by the Luton Foundation, but that was their right.
Speaker 3:So, basically, two thirds, little over two thirds of the congregations in Northeast Indiana, lcms opened their doors for this work. So I think it was kind of a self-selection that the ones that really didn't want to know, kind of said no thanks and for all I know, maybe they're doing a great job of caring for their workers. I don't know. But they chose not to participate in this and that's okay. But I don't know how they're doing. But I can tell you from the 43 that I consulted with I felt a really great. I had great experiences with those folks, those lay leadership people. I don't know if that answers gets to your point.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's excellent. So you wrote. I love all that you've written regarding church worker wellness. And again, this does apply to all of the baptized and, at the same time, those that are public proclaimers of the word, weekend and week out pastors and those that are in the trenches teaching DCs, etc. They do have maybe a little larger target on their back. If they can take down leaders in the church, the church can splinter. So you wrote on the four major threats to church worker well-being. I'd love for you to walk us through what you found those threats to be.
Speaker 2:And then even strategies for countering the assaults of Satan for sure.
Speaker 3:All right. Well, thank you for that question. This is something I'm really feel very strongly about and very passionate about, and I owe a tremendous debt of gratitude and I want to acknowledge it right here to Dr Bruce Hartung. He was a professor they said he was the director of commission on ministerial growth and support. He taught at the seminary and he wrote a book, a wonderful book, called Holding Up the Prophet's Hand. I think it was published in 2011. And it's four threats are the ones that the I drew these four threats from that book Because not only because I respect Bruce Hartung so much, but because I agree with what he said I saw the truth in what he was saying. He, by the way, he's written another book since he wrote another book, I think in 2016, called Building Up the Body of Christ, which is also excellent, and it takes a little different angle on the whole aspect of wellness. But so I wanted to get Bruce Hartung.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, as you get going into this, dr Bruce Hartung was and is one of my favorite humans. He shaped my heart around counseling, systems theory, humility, just the posture of the servant leader, just about more than anyone else at the seminary. I had three or four classes with them and they were all spectacular, and he and I have stayed in touch over the years. So it's so good to know that you've stayed close and have a partnership with him, because both of those works that you referenced are spectacular. So yeah, lead us into those four major threats Dick.
Speaker 3:Great, okay, well, and then I added the big four from Bruce and then I added a lot of my own thoughts over and you know, kind of consistent with what he's saying, but based on my own experience. So the first one is spiritual attack. Spiritual attack and I felt that the main areas of spiritual attack for church workers and you know, again, we're using church workers, maybe in the broadest sense, anybody who's leading in the church, right False doctrine, moral failure usually around sex or money, for some reason relational strife, arrogance we'll talk more about that and shame. So for me, those are my thoughts on the major areas of spiritual attack false doctrine, moral failure, relational strife, arrogance and shame. The key prevention strategy obviously it goes without saying, but I'll say it anyway stay immersed in God's word and prayer. Okay, stay immersed in God's word and prayer, but Jesus said where two or three are gathered in my name, I am there in the midst of them. So I think that a key prevention strategy against spiritual attack is accountability. Accountability being in accountable partnerships with others who will hold each other mutually accountable for walking in the way that the Lord is calling them to walk.
Speaker 3:I think that isolation and loneliness are huge problems. I'll say just for pastors for sure, because I know that, and when a pastor is isolated and lonely he is very subject to temptation. The Bible says the devil walks around like a roaring lion seeking someone to devour. Ok, what does a roaring lion look for? He looks for the animal that is separated from the herd, or the flock Maybe it's got a wounded leg or whatever but he looks for the one that's by itself. Then he attacks that one.
Speaker 3:Well, we know that in the church we're not by ourselves. You know, like it says, the same experience is required of your brothers and sisters throughout the world. Right, we're not alone. But we forget that and we start to think we're alone, and then we get lonely. And when we start to think that way, we become very vulnerable to Satan's attacks. That roaring lion sees that sheep or that antelope or whatever is separated. So how do we fix that? Some people say, well, go to your circuit, your circuit conferences. Some people, people calling them Winkle's, the old word, the German word I never liked that word. That much Sounds kind of weird. I like circuits better.
Speaker 4:But anyway, maybe accountability group or something, I don't know.
Speaker 1:Yeah something besides a circuit.
Speaker 3:Because what is it? A closed circuit, you know. But anyway, I like circuit better than Winkle, though I'll say that I don't know what a Winkle is, but I don't like the word. Anyway. But the problem with circuits is that they're geographic. There's nothing to ensure that there's going to be any kind of affinity among the participants, right, in fact, sometimes it's very competitive, sometimes it can be very competitive.
Speaker 4:Look how good I'm doing. I should be stepping up, kind of thing? Yes, yeah.
Speaker 3:And what are you up to over there? I heard you're doing this or that, I don't know. Now I was blessed to be in the circuits that I was in in ministry, where a couple of them were very strong and good and a couple of them were not a problem. So my experience with circuits has been okay. But that was not my accountability group for the most part. Maybe it was one or two from within that group.
Speaker 3:So circuits can work, but I do think pastors it takes intentionally looking for people and this is not easy for people to be in an accountability with, but I do think it's so important to ward off spiritual attacks, in addition to God's word and prayer. The second major threat is burnout, and before we get into burnout, Dick can.
Speaker 2:I just make one comment regarding spiritual attack and pastors in particular. Pastors, if you don't have a spiritual father, someone that you look up to could have been another pastor, or just someone with immense wisdom who has walked your road and doesn't believe your press If you're succeeding, or they just view you as a human, far before they view you as a pastor, and if that person can be even closer to you in your world, where there's a rhythm of connecting, maybe weekly man, I think there's so much opportunity for growth there and I feel so blessed right now. My father, father-in-law I've got men that are above me there that I submit to and talk openly about the highs and the lows of life, public and private. And then I also have right now on our team he's been on some podcast with me and he's a slightly younger than I am but filled with a lot of wisdom Michael Haydn, pastor Michael Haydn, and I've told him he was called an associate pastor. We're just pastors, right, and he's like a pastor to me.
Speaker 2:I can talk to him very frankly about the ego you talk about spiritual attack and the arrogance I just told him yesterday, as things are growing and blah, blah, blah and people are this kind of stuff. 99% of my heart, michael, is nah, probably not 99. 95% of my heart is pure and humble, just wanting to sacrifice a server. There's that shadow side, that 5% side that, if left unchecked, can become about Tim, could become about Jack, could become about ULC rather than the elevation of the name of Jesus. And if you get a sniff of that, bro, I want you to call me out in Christian love. Kindly be gentle, I'm sensitive, you know, but do speak clearly about areas of character growth that you see that are lacking in me, and I think pastors just need to be that vulnerable and say, hey, if I don't have it, I gotta go find it. Anything to add to that, jack.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I would say I think that there's a lot of discernment that goes into it, but I think what I see is that spiritual attack can come from when a person has a lack of self-esteem, and spiritual attack can come when a person has too much self-esteem.
Speaker 4:And I think that's where I see the balance in it, rather than like humility but also a type of courage that comes from faith, having those things that keep the character in balance. You know, we've talked a lot about there are people who are extremely talented but their character has not cut up with their talent right, and so I would say that those are two examples, like on a scale, where you may see issues with characters like not enough self-esteem right, because they've not been built up enough in faith, too much self-esteem right, and there's shadow, there's like positives, pros and cons to both of those. You know, one person may lean more towards humility, right, but maybe lacks a little bit of courage and faith. Another person has a lot of courage but lacks humility, and so I think that's something that you need to know about the person that you're walking with, and also self-awareness for the leader. Where do I lean on? You know, where do I lean on sort of fall imbalance in either of those two?
Speaker 2:One of my favorite handles, dick. I don't know if you've heard this, but the four base emotions, fear and pride being the two kind of base emotions there's a whole bunch of. You know, you can get shame and you can get anger. A lot of that's connected to to fear, or or then an imbalance of pride on that side. That middle way is what we're looking for, and the counter to fear is love. The perfect love of God casts out fear.
Speaker 2:So, leaning into our baptismal identity not our identity as pastor or anything else, but outside of a child of God. And then and then humility the humility to say I get to be a part of the mission of God, I get to bring God's word today. You know, I know who I am, and yet the audacity that I get to step into this room and lead these people on this finite amount of time like this is this is nuts, I am unworthy, and yet here am I, here, am I send me anything to close there around? Pastoral accountability you heard us talk about it. I just think it's so huge though, dick. So thank you for leaning into it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, I think what you're saying is absolutely true and I the thing that I think that I don't know, the more I live this life and the more I think about it and experience it for myself and see and others, I think that and maybe we'll talk about this a little bit more later on but I think this idea of spiritual pride is so pervasive and so insidious it can creep in and I don't know. I guess I'm trying to say we need to. I don't mean we need to be anxious, but we need to be alert and and realize when it can be happening, because sometimes it can sneak in from an unexpected place. You know, I've said to people, you know, you know the devil tries to attack you at your weakest link, at your weakest point, rather your weakest point, and so people will say well, you know, I think I know my weakest point, I know my weakest point and my comment to that is okay, good, but maybe your weakest point is something you don't know, that you don't know it is. Maybe you think it's fine, maybe you think it's fine and maybe you're getting kind of prideful about that point and you don't even know it yet. But the devil, the devil, if he'll see that, you know, and your flesh will see it for sure, your sinful nature will gravitate toward that. So I'm not again. I don't want to sound like I'm an alarmist or like I'm fearful. I'm just saying we need to stay alert.
Speaker 3:And as long as we're in this life, tim and Jack, you know we're gonna be tempted. I mean, let's face it. I mean Jesus was tempted to his last breath. Right the devil? At the very first temptation in the wilderness, he said if you're the Son of God, do this, right. What was the thing? What was the thing that people were saying to Jesus on the cross if you're the Son of God, come down. The same dog on temptation, the same exact words, not coming directly from the devil, but from the people around the cross if you're the Son of God, prove yourself right.
Speaker 3:And one of the desert fathers back in the second or third century said of one thing we can be certain we shall be tempted until our last breath. We shall be tempted until our last breath. And thank God that Jesus says I am with you always. I am with you till your last breath. I'm not gonna leave you at your last breath. I'm gonna be there with you, you know, and when you take your last breath, he says I won't be with you anymore. You know why? Because you'll be with me, that's right, you'll be with me. That's why he says to the end but then after that, because you're gonna be with me then. But so, thank God, our Lord is with us always, because we need Him always, always. So I don't know, I just want to throw that in. And I think your idea about accountability, like call me out on it, you know, I mean that's bold, that's bold, but I love it, that's, you know, that's. I really appreciate and respect that.
Speaker 2:No. So I love your exegesis of Jesus temptation and then all the way to the cross. That's fantastic, because what? What is Satan attacking our core identity?
Speaker 3:yeah right but when our life?
Speaker 2:has been hidden. Our life now has been hidden with Christ. I have been crucified with Christ. I no longer live. I live in Him, wrapped up in Him. That's, that's our baptismal identity, that's the power of. So, when Satan comes at us, you're this, you're this, you're this. You could say, yeah, on the one hand, I know I'm a sinner, I'm broken, you got me fine but on the other hand, I've been washing the blood of Christ. My life is not my own. I've been redeemed, brought back into a right relationship with God. So, back off Satan. I'm the Lord's and that's what the Lord says over us now and forever. So I love you got your preacher on there, dick. That was sweet bro. So let's, let's talk about, let's talk about from spiritual attack.
Speaker 3:Go ahead, yeah let me just say this I you know when you have talk about how Satan attacks us. I think we really, really, really need to be clear about the difference between guilt and shame yes because guilt has to do with behavior. Shame has to do with identity, identity that's it guilt says I did a bad thing.
Speaker 3:Shame says I'm a bad person. Right, and the Bible, the Bible's very clear. We guilt is necessary when we sin, we need to be guilty. Yeah, paul calls that the, the godly grief that leads to repentance. Right, the godly grief that leads to repentance. But shame, I'm a new creation in Christ. Devil, you cannot, you can accuse me of bad things, things I've done. Okay, I repent, I confess, I stand guilty, I am the guiltiest chart. But you cannot accuse me of being an evil person, because 2 Corinthians 5, if anyone is in Christ, he's a new creation. That's right. The new creation the old has passed away, didn't say someday will pass away has passed away. Behold, the new has come. Oh, my goodness, right. So shame is. Shame is off the table, right, but guilt, yeah, okay, we, we actually, we can embrace guilt. And you know, like somebody said, for the Christian, there may be, there may well be conviction, there may well be conviction.
Speaker 3:We sometimes need conviction, but there is no condemnation yes that's the difference yes so we welcome conviction, but we reject condemnation because, hey, it's irrelevant, you're talking about somebody else, you're not talking about me, because I'm in Jesus Christ and Jesus is in me praise God, hmm yes, this is fun man you're
Speaker 2:like alighting it up. Man, this is so good because your point is back to Jesus and the truth of who we are in Him. So four major threats. First one is spiritual attack, the second one burnout, burnout.
Speaker 3:Talk about burnout burnout I define and I think Bruce Bruce says something like this too chronic disappointment. It's not the same as stress out we'll get to that in a second but burnout is chronic disappointment with yourself and or with your ministry or your life. You know, if you're, if you're not, whatever well, burnout looks like is that the person is flat, they're flat and they cannot care anymore. It's really important, it's not. They don't care, they cannot care. And their favorite word in my opinion this is my own little thing that I added to the my favorite word of the person in burnout is this you ready, whatever?
Speaker 3:whatever what do you think we should do? Should we do this, whatever?
Speaker 3:don't care what do you think we would do? What do you like? Do you like this idea or do you think it's a bad idea, whatever? So it can be mistaken for apathy. Apathy is you don't care. Burnout is you cannot care because you feel like I don't measure up. Why keep trying? Why keep trying so hard? Because I don't measure up and I won't measure up. That's burnout. So the key prevention strategy for burnout, the key prevention strategy, is not and or treatment, if you will, treatment or prevention. I prefer prevention because it's a lot less expensive than treatment in terms of time and money. But it's not to say get your butt in gear. That's addressing apathy, not burnout.
Speaker 3:The the strategy for burnout is to clarify expectations. What exactly, pastor, do we expect of you? What are we expecting? Romans 12-3 do not think more highly of yourself than you ought to think, but think of yourself with sober judgment. What are my strengths, what are my weaknesses? How can I capitalize on my strengths and minimize, if not eliminate, the impact of my weaknesses?
Speaker 3:And when you have a group like a Board of Elders, like I've been blessed to have, and especially at Holy Cross, where we did that from time to time, clarifying expectations, that was so healthy, you guys, so healthy to do that. I mean, it gave me such a feeling of security and I know that the Board of Elders and I together were clarifying these expectations, and so it's amazing what can happen when you do that, because sometimes people will come to fellow members they won't come to a pastor, right, they'll come to an elder and they'll say well, I noticed, you know, pastor so-and-so used to do this, but pastor Kanaki doesn't seem to be doing that anymore. What's going on? And then the elder can say, well, no, we told him he doesn't need to be doing that and then the member says and then the member.
Speaker 3:And then the member says oh okay, all right, thanks. So if the pastor says I don't need to be, if the pastor says I don't need to be doing that, it's like all all hell, hades is gonna break loose. But if the elder says, no, that's okay, we agreed. No, the elders agreed that he wouldn't need to be doing that okay, thanks yeah, they believe it if they believe a fellow member, right.
Speaker 4:so that's, that's how that works clarifying expectations, so it sounds like you made a big impact on this is the church's governance that's. That's kind of the analogy. I see, like Tim and I walked through a decade-long process of going through a couple different governance changes and in our respective church here, where we went from a traditional council model to a board model now to a carver model, each of these kind of have different expectations, different boundaries. I would say we've gone from less to higher amounts of clarity of what's expected of Tim and his ministry role and wonderful, and I would say that that's also like when I was thinking about you know what is, what is the most strategically important things here for us to be able to function in the long term. The top of the list was our governance has to be set right. We have to have absolute clarity about what is expected and not expected for Tim and any other person serving on staff here. I think that's absolutely right.
Speaker 3:That's so healthy. I mean don't we all need that in our relationships? I mean, don't we need that in marriage and friendships and workplace? I mean exactly what. You know? What am I expected? We don't ask it in a negative way, but we want to measure up, we want to do the right thing, we want to do what's helpful. So tell me what that is. And then that needs to be re-figured from time to time.
Speaker 1:You know.
Speaker 3:I remember Roy Oswald used to be with the Albin Institute.
Speaker 3:He was talking about a long-term pastorate and he said he feels like that in the long-term pastorate there needs to be a renewal of the covenant every seven to ten years, where they where you step back and it's almost like you start from scratch and you look at the whole ministry Okay, now going forward into the next. Well, you know what we've been doing. Okay, now let's look ahead and kind of covenant renewal and I think there was a lot of wisdom in that. I think you know, so that you don't just lapse into saying, well, just keep doing what we've always been doing. You know, and it needs to be continued, you know, reviewed from time to time and that's healthy. But Paul Zilts, I'm sure Paul has been very helpful in that whole governance thing with you. I mean he's great with that and a lot of other things too.
Speaker 2:But yeah, so anyway, yeah, that's so important, you know, as I look, it is, it is and as I look at what's expected of a pastor all their different hats a pastor has to wear, you know, from high level executive functioning, if you happen to be I always, often, lament for the 26 year old young man that enters into a you know a congregation that may have a you know a $600, $800,000 budget, something like that, and he's supposed to be kind of the main strategic visionary leader of that group.
Speaker 2:Like that's a tall task. I'm just trying to figure out how to preach and how to counsel and how to Mary Barry, baptize, all that kind of pastoral functions. And you want me to like be responsible for the fiscal. You know, jepper, I don't even know how to freaking balance my own budget. You know what I'm saying as a young, as a young kid. So like the task is so great and if I could, if I could instill one trait, character trait is the ability of a pastor to come in and clearly say I, I just can't do, I'm in need help.
Speaker 2:Like you may have had folks that did that in the past. God bless them. But I have a small can. Can pastors start to say I have a very small set of skills and not all pastors can have the same set of skills? You know, I can do two or three things pretty well and if their project or whatever it is, is around those things, man, I need to be at the table. But man I need, I need an army of people who are around me to hold up my arms. But for me to hold up their arms is they they are gifted in unique ways Jack's role. There's no way, dick, that I could do Jack's role.
Speaker 2:I don't have Jack's experience. He's an executive director, finance operations. You know budget projections. He's a master of that kind of stuff. Like I don't need to even. I need to trust Jack. I need Jack to teach me like how to, how to read it so we can make like good decisions. But I don't think we've. I don't think we've raised up the equipping effusions for mentality for a lot of our leaders and that just leads you to feel overwhelmed over time. I mean, how awful is it to feel like you're failing all the time?
Speaker 1:All the time and I think a lot of pastors feel like that.
Speaker 3:That's an awful feeling, dick, and that's burnout, yeah, chronic disappointment. Yeah, I you know, and it's, it's really close to shame. It was really close to shame because it's a short step from saying I have been failing to saying I am a failure. Right, and I am a failure. That's a shame statement. Now we're talking about identity and you've probably heard this saying a failure is an event, not a person.
Speaker 3:That's right, right, we do experience failures in life, but that doesn't make us a failure, right? So, um, yeah, I think I think, with everything, what you're saying right now is is right on the money with, with this whole idea of burnout.
Speaker 2:So this is so much fun. Spiritual attack burnout. Third one excessive stress, excessive stress. Talk about stress.
Speaker 3:Okay, some stress is good because it brings out the best in us. I call it. I call that being stretched stretched, all right, it's good to be stretched, and I find that as healthy stress. Where stress gets negative, when it's been too much for too long, all right, and. And that can do bad things to your brain and to your body. I mean, that's been documented, right, cortisol in the bloodstream can do bad things to you. So what excessive stress is, and these are my little homespun definitions.
Speaker 3:Okay, this is not what a clinical psychologist might say, but here's how I define excessive stress. Too much stuff at once, all right, too much stuff at once, and and what it sounds like. I said that chronic disappointment sounds flat, right, burnout sounds flat, correct. What stress sounds excessive stress sounds like is frantic. It's frantic and the person who is excessively stressed out, whereas the person in burnout cannot care. The person in it who's stressed out cannot change, because every change is perceived as a threat, because it's a one more dog on thing that I've got to deal with, right, and it doesn't take much to put to put a person into that mode. I mean, when you're so stressed out, it can be the tiniest little thing.
Speaker 3:The favorite word of the person in burnout is whatever. The favorite word of the person who's stressed out is this You're ready? What, what, what. You want me to do? That too, what and it? You know it could be. Excessive stress can be mistaken for being hot tempered. We said the burnout person can be mistaken for being apathetic. The person who's stressed out can be mistaken for being hot tempered, and what it sounds like is in addition to what is, I can't handle all this. I cannot handle all this. So, unfortunately, what happens is some people who are stressed out they'll keep trying to handle it and then really bad things happen. Really bad things happen to them and to their, their, whatever they're serving. So the key prevention strategy for excessive stress is not you need to settle down.
Speaker 4:That's not it, or it may not be a retreat right, Because that may not have it, may not.
Speaker 3:The key prevention strategy is to set priorities. Set priorities it's. It's related to clarifying expectations, okay, but setting priorities. Paul says in Philippians one nine through 11, he says I pray that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight so that you may be able to discern what is best. And another good translation of discern what is best is to decide what matters most. So love abounding in depth of insight discerns what matters most, set priorities. So you know. The question is what are the things that really need to happen, that need to happen and make sure these things happen and are done well, and then figure out what to do. You know, with the rest of the things that maybe, okay, we delegate them or we distribute them or whatever. You know they may still need to happen. What you find out is that a lot of stuff doesn't need to keep happening. You know we're just doing it. We're just doing it because we've always done it. Yes, but I think so. That's the key prevention for excessive stress. It's a set priority.
Speaker 4:I want to add to that that's a fantastic scripture to look at. I also want to encourage people to look at Exodus 18, where Moses oh, yeah, yeah, right, all the people are being brought to Moses and he's got to decide every single thing. And this is happening from sunrise to sunset, nonstop, no breaks, just everybody bringing every single thing to Moses. And then he's got Jethro. And what does Jethro say? What you're doing is not good, this is not good. And so what is the advice that he gives? He gives the advice you need to delegate, you need to put people into right 10. People in charge of a hundred, people in charge of a thousand. So he's telling Moses like this, you're gonna burn out. You cannot be everything to everybody. You need to let decisions go. You need to Delegate these decisions down, empower people to take on the responsibility of these decisions, let them handle this, and then you handle the things that ultimately truly matter. And I lament the fact that pastors these days, they don't have a Jethro telling them this, but so true, I think, to this.
Speaker 3:This come brings to mind something else. It's kind of a fine point, but I think it's an important point is the difference between delegating and distributing. When you delegate I believe this is just me now I believe when you delegate something, you still have ultimate responsibility for it. You, you know it's, it's still gonna stop at your desk. But sometimes I think I look, can speak from a pastoral perspective. Sometimes, when it's a lot of things are going on, sometimes you just have to distribute things and say look, you go ahead and do this, you do not have to report back to me.
Speaker 3:You know, you take, you see, we'll see what happens, you know and as long as everybody knows that that's what's happening and I would say in my case it would be the Board of elders we're gonna distribute this to Judy or Fred or Sam or whoever, and they go okay, all right, fine, if they agree, then we're all on the same page. So delegating and distributing can be two different things, and sometimes Things need to be just give it turned loose, just absolutely turned loose, and see what happens.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so summarize the conversation so far. Go ahead. Dick finish the thought and I want to summarize this is awesome.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but that I guess could just quickly. Yeah, that takes discernment, you know it can't be done. Flip the tech can't be done flippantly, or cavalier Lee, you know. But if there's, if everybody's perfectly working together on that, and they say, yep, this is something you need to let go of and distribute it, just so, and so, then then we're good.
Speaker 2:So, to summarize, like key prevention strategies, it's relationships. First, your relationship with with God and your identity in him. I love Philippians 413, right, I can do all things I can't do. Through what? Through him, who gives me strength. So he knows, paul knows who he is, and then, and then he's actually having this boundary initiating, because if you're looking at burnout and and excessive stress, clarifying expectations, setting priorities, you're comfortable talking about your need for help and then boundaries, about what you can and cannot do. And so, philippians 414, no one memorizes that Paul says. And yet it was kind of you to share in my struggle.
Speaker 2:Hey man, it was kind of you to go on. It was kind of you to go on mission with me and to hold my arms up and to comfort me when I was Overwhelmed, like I did all of this in in community. There's no way I could do any of this on my own, and so I pray that deep, abiding relationships and then and then boundary setting Conversations are what are happening in in our churches, especially with our, with our leaders. So Last one dick, this has been so much fun. Your wisdom, yes, man, I could talk to you like all day long. We, we groove man, this is so cool. So last one we got spiritual attack, burnout, excessive stress for Secondary traumatic stress. I can tell you this I have experienced all of those to some degree and I've had to help, but this one right here is a real thing secondary traumatic stress. Go ahead speak on that.
Speaker 3:I just have to just jump back for 30 seconds to something you said before, tim, sure, that's fine.
Speaker 3:I, I, actually this is just I'm. This is an existential comment right here, right now. I got a thrill chill in my body when you said, when you linked Philippians 4 13 and 4 14 that's so beautiful. I Can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me. Yet it was kind of you To share my trouble. That is so beautiful. I mean, that's the both and right. Jesus is all in all and not but, and we need each other, right. So thank you for everything that's. That's. That's very moving. It's very moving to me. I gotta say that.
Speaker 1:So, all right, I'm gonna try to pull myself together. Then go to the fourth point your heart, man, oh man.
Speaker 3:Okay, secondary, secondary, traumatic stress, cumulative trauma that's important. Cumulative trauma that you absorb from others. Trauma Some people call it vicarious trauma. It's absorbed from other people. It's not your own, but it's absorbed from other people and it builds up with time. And as a parish pastor for 38 years, boy did I ever experience this and what it looks like? Because if you care, here's the deal you have. We are called to really care for people. Right, we really are called to care for people, but the problem is, if we care, if we care so deeply that we can't let it go, we can't keep caring for the other people because we get worn out From carrying these burdens. So what it looks like it's very similar to burnout. What it sounds like is there's no hope. I'm exhausted, I'm exhausted, and the key prevention strategy is to learn to let go. And the first, the first somebody said, the first step of faith is realizing that you are not God.
Speaker 4:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 3:Okay, only God can care for everybody all the time. I'm not God, I cannot do it. That's not the same thing as saying I won't do it. It is healthy to say I cannot do it. That's reality, right. And then I think, along with that, to talk it out, first Peter 5, 6 and 7 Humble yourselves under God's mighty hand. And then it the casting is a participle. This is how you humble yourself, by casting all your cares on him right now. Okay, so does that mean the pastor should just pray if he's got problems? Cast all your cares on God. It says cast all your cares on him. Well, if a member came to me and said, pastor, I have a problem, what should I do? I wouldn't say to that person hey, cast all your cares on God, don't bother me anymore. Right, you know I would care for that person. Well, the same thing is true for the pastor. We, we need to turn to people for care also. And now, one of the things I suggested in the caring for the called initiative was this I Suggested to pastors in particular that they have regular consultations with a mental health professional, not because there's a problem or whatever, but just to talk about what's going on in their life, in their ministry.
Speaker 3:So you walk into the therapist's office and the therapist says how's it going? And for the next 45 or 50 minutes you talk about whatever is on your heart, on your mind, and A friend of mine who's a psychologist says it would be good for that to be done every six weeks to two months, every six to eight weeks, just preventive maintenance. Now I think that was true as three years ago. I think it's still true today that the Concordia Health Plan provides for up to six free counseling sessions per topic per year. For For the church workers, six six topic, six sessions per topic per year. So if it's excessive stress or if it's burnout, you can talk about that with your therapist up to six times that year and then if you can talk about a different topic and still have it covered by Concordia Health Plan, okay, are we still together? Yeah, okay.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, no, this is. This is excellent. I was, you guys were freezing up.
Speaker 3:Oh, you guys were freezing up on the screen and I was, I was hoping, I was, I was hoping you were Intentively here. Oh.
Speaker 1:God bless you because you weren't moving now. Okay, done.
Speaker 3:Tim, All right, Anyway. So that's preventive maintenance and that's you know. I mean, I think of this, that our own Concordia Health Plan facilitates that and makes that possible. So that would be the. That would be the fourth one, secondary traumatic stress, and it's very, very insidious and very dangerous because the more you care, the more vulnerable you are, and so you have to know when to stop caring about that so you can care for the next person who comes in to you and needing your care.
Speaker 2:A lot of systems theory here, dick, is ringing true being differentiated and connected at the very same time, and recognizing you're just a human, you're a creature in God's creation and at the same time, again, we need. We need one another. But I've said that statement so many times and how you say the statement. This statement is very, very important because you can say I can't be God for you, but you can say, I know you're walking through struggle. I can't be who Jesus can be for you and I can't be who the wider body of Christ can be for you. So I release you to Jesus and to his church and I'm a part of your team, your wellness team, and it's an honor for me to play that part, so that at the same time, that's a connecting and boundary setting statement. Anything to add to that, dick?
Speaker 3:Well, yeah, that's a great way to put it, and I would say it can even be something like when this let's say I'm counseling with somebody and I've been with them for 45 minutes, and let's say we're going to see each other again, but when they walk out that door, I don't think about them anymore. I make my notes, I make my notes, but I stop thinking about it. This is going to sound horrible, but I'm going to say it anyway because I trust you guys and I hope our audience will accept this. You stop caring. You stop caring at that point because you're not God.
Speaker 3:You've got to care for the next person who's coming into your office, right, and the next one after that, or you're the hospital that you're going to go visit, or the prison cell or whatever you're going to be doing next. So that's what I'm talking about and also making like what I think you just said making referrals. If you know a competent counselor in your area to refer people to in different situations, that's a great resource to have. You know a pastor should be. Somebody said once a pastor I don't know if this is, but this is one person's theory A pastor should not have more than three sessions with a parishioner around the same topic because they're going to stop growing after that. They need to see somebody else, because pastors are not equipped for long-term therapeutic relationships.
Speaker 2:I think that's a wonderful word of wisdom for sure. So we're about at time. Time has flown, dick. This has been so much fun. We talk about a lot of topics where the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod has and we all do individuals, churches, the Synod we have room for growth. What is your biggest prayer as you look at the broader landscape of the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod? How are you praying for her right now in this season, dick?
Speaker 3:Well, I think that my prayer would be that we we can maximize our strengths, our great strength of, of our biblical and doctrinal base, and maximize that in our mission outreach to lost people. You know, we have a, we have a great message, but we're we're inclined to keep it to ourselves and I remember I don't know how much time we've got, but if I've got a minute or two, I was teaching a new member class.
Speaker 3:This illustrates my point that we have this doctrine, which is so true that it would. Without faith in Jesus Christ, the person is going to spend eternity in hell.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 3:All right, I was teaching a new member class and we were covering the, you know the, the subject of the last day judgment, heaven and hell. And I was talking about, you know, the very thing I just mentioned faith in Jesus Christ. And I looked back in the back back row of the people that were sitting. There is this beautiful young woman named Heidi. I know I remember her last name too, but I'm not going to say it here, but her name was Heidi and she had tears streaming down her, down her face, I mean, and it gets me moved, it gets me choked up just to talk about it right now. And I said, heidi, what's wrong? Are you okay?
Speaker 3:And here's what you said Pastor, if we really believe that people who don't believe in Jesus are going to hell, how can we not be telling everybody about Jesus? All right, yeah, that's, I mean I, that's my prayer that we can tell everybody. We, we thank God, we have that, we have a good, sound knowledge of the Bible, faith in Jesus. Sola grazia, sola scriptura, sola fide. Okay, but not many people are speaking Latin anymore these days.
Speaker 4:So what do?
Speaker 3:we do? What do we do with that?
Speaker 4:It's great to sound smart at cocktail parties. Yeah, right, right, exactly.
Speaker 3:Exactly so that would be my prayer that we would maximize the impact of our sound biblical and doctrinal base in mission outreach to a lost and dying world.
Speaker 2:Yes, Mike drop game set match. That is it. Why do we exist? Why does the church exist? It's because the missio day, the mission of God, there we go cocktail party. The mission of God as compelled us forward and we cannot help but proclaim the praises of the one who was called us out of darkness into a marvelous light. If all of the baptized by the power of God's spirit were captured toward that, and how powerful would the Lutheran church in Missouri Senate be going forward? We have challenges and we have located the enemy and we recognize our sin. We often can be one another's worst enemy, and so I just pray that we love and care for one another and unite around the essentials of what it means to be a biblical and confessing Lutheran church Missouri Senate, especially that pastors and those who are called and commissioned would take the lead toward that end.
Speaker 2:Dick, this has been so much fun and I'd love to have you back because we didn't even scratch the surface of the amount of biblical wisdom and insight leadership insight that you have, so I look forward to that. In the meantime, this is lead. Time sharing is caring. Please like, subscribe, comment wherever it is it could be YouTube, could be Spotify. That's where I take in podcasts, but I pray that you are a learning, humble, courageous leader and that you just took one or two things from today and setting an intentional strategy. This is what I'm taking an intentional strategy to build deeper relationships and to set stronger, loving, loving boundaries. It's a good day. Go and make it a great day. This is lead time. Thanks so much, jack, thanks Dick.
Speaker 3:Thank you, peace.
Speaker 1:You've been listening to lead time, a podcast of the Unite Leadership Collector. The ULC's mission is to collaborate with the local church to discover, develop and deploy leaders through biblical Lutheran doctrine and innovative methods To partner with us in this gospel message. Subscribe to our channel, then go to theunitel leadershiporg to create your free login for exclusive material and resources and then to explore ways in which you can sponsor an episode. Thanks for listening and stay tuned for next week's episode.