Lead Time
Lead Time
Lamenting, Listening and Liturgy - A Candid Discussion with President Brady Finnern
Get ready to be enlightened as we welcome Brady Finnern, the insightful district president of the Minnesota North District of the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. Brady pulls back the curtain on the intense world of the Synod Convention, emphasizing the significance of diverse perspectives and representative voices. He shares his enlightening reflections on traditional worship and the captivating dialogues that made a profound impact on him.
Brady delves into the heart of gospel proclamation, highlighting its intrinsic challenges and essential importance. He shares his expertise on how to preserve the clarity of gospel proclamation for our families and congregations, and underlines the significance of individual confession and absolution. With a focus on gospel-centered conversations, Brady provides a fresh perspective on how these dialogues shape our understanding and relationship with God.
In the final section, Brady brings to light the often-neglected aspects of the Christian journey - lamenting and listening. He elucidates on the creation of safe spaces for expressing grief and the value of honest conversations in overcoming disagreements. As we discuss the interface of worship, liturgy, church, and culture, Brady offers his valuable insights on maintaining the essence of liturgy in diverse contexts. Join us for this soul-stirring episode that's sure to leave you inspired and thoughtful.
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Leigh Time is a podcast of the Unite Leadership Collective, hosted by Tim Ollman and Jack Calliberg. The ULC envisages the future in which all congregations fully equip the priesthood of all the leavers through world-class leadership development at the local level. Leigh Time taps into biblical wisdom for practical solutions to today's burning issues. Each podcast confronts real-time struggles facing the local church in a post-Christian culture. Step into the action with the ULC at UniteLeadershiporg. This is Leigh Time.
Speaker 2:Welcome to Leigh Time, tim Ollman, here with Jack Calliberg, and we pray, as a consumer of Jesus-focused, joy-filled content, that the joy of the Lord is your strength. Today, as you lean into a conversation with a brand-new friend of mine, I've heard of Brady Finnern from afar for a number of years now, but Brady is the president of the Minnesota North District of the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod just for one year, also the husband to Amy celebrating 20 years here. Brady, you and I are in a similar season of life. He has four kids, all in their teenage years, a high school 17 down to 13. He is a born and bred Minnesotan. He received his BA from Gustavus Adolphus College with a major in health, fitness and coaching.
Speaker 2:We're going to talk, man. That's cool. I didn't know about that. He graduated as well from Concordia Seminary just a couple of years before myself, in 2006. He served in a number of different parishes all in Minnesota, what I'm looking at and then he's again been district president for the last year. He also serves as a host of a weekly podcast on KFUO called Concord Matters, which is focused on a study of the book of Concord. So we'll lean into that, and then you and I relate on this as well. You're a coach a shot put and discus. I'm coaching Brady right now Football for my son's kind of medium sized Christian high school just down the road. So lots to talk about today. So what did I miss in terms of your ministry story there? Brady, thanks for hanging out with Jack and I today on lead time.
Speaker 3:It's a joy to be with you guys. It's great to be with you for Pastor Allman, as we just got back from Synod Convention. So that was always, like we said, an experience. Maybe we should put that on there. Made it through convention Should have been part of my biography. What do you think?
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, for sure. I mean, we didn't just survive, brady, we thrived.
Speaker 3:There you go, I'll take it, we made it into this.
Speaker 2:And your first time at the convention as a DP. There's a lot For those who don't know. Those days are long 12 some days and you're in this like Synod bubble you remember the bubble back in the day with the NBA? That's kind of what. I'm in the LCMS bubble for like five days talking about stuff that as a parish pastor and even for you as a district president, it's not stuff that's top of mind every single day.
Speaker 3:Is it Brady? It's kind of an unusual experience.
Speaker 2:Anything else to add, though, about convention.
Speaker 3:No, I talk about it this way the Lord gives us what we need, and so we do need to have those kind of conversations, we do need to have those kind of votes, if you will. Who makes those kind of decisions, while you bring the people, the workers, all together in one place and you make those decisions? But, like you said, when you go through all of it, how much of that really affects the daily care of souls that you do and our schools do, and everything? Well, not a ton, but we do need that representation for the sake of everyone, I guess, who say having a voice in a sense, but also so much of it was pointing back to Jesus. So the Lord gives us what we need, and he gave us what we need, and now he gives us what we need where we serve.
Speaker 2:Yeah, amen, and I loved the, because we have both traditional and more modern contemporary worship here, all with liturgical bent. We can talk about that too, maybe. But man, I love the traditional worship. Everybody who put that on it was really really well done. Obviously, jesus centered, yeah, word and sacrament. It was just really really good and it takes you back Like I've done Mattens and Vespers a lot, but we don't do it like on a really consistent basis. So, yeah, those liturgies were really really well received and yeah, so I actually come back feeling pretty good.
Speaker 2:But it was great to enter back with our team yesterday. Jack, from afar, as you look at what Synod Convention is, what are your thoughts?
Speaker 4:I know you've never been you wanted to go, and maybe three years from now you'll be there. We were watching from home. I mean, we were watching. It was live streaming in our office just the whole time and it is fascinating to take a peek into what's going on nationally. There is so much difference in, I would say, culture between the West Coast and the Midwest and different regions that it sometimes feels like you're saying, wow, that's our church too, because it's so different and you have different perspectives on it. Obviously, there's a lot of discussion going on about pastoral formation and what is the right way to worship, and all that kind of stuff, sometimes very passionate conversations. There's a lot of chatter online that's going on as people are voting on these amendments and these motions and stuff. I was kind of curious to know, though, from your perspective being actually there and participating what was the conversation that you felt most interested in during that period of time.
Speaker 2:Because I think you'd. Yeah, yeah, yeah, brady, you go first and then I'll fill in, because your perspective as a district president not voting necessarily is probably different than mine, kind of with the clickers trying to do your thing at the right time. So, yeah, go ahead, brady.
Speaker 3:So ask that question again. Jack, I think I know where you're at.
Speaker 4:So, yeah, you're there for full day. A lot of discussion, a lot of debate, a lot of topics, a lot of things people are voting on. What discussion was the most interesting to you? What did you feel like? Had the highest impact and you felt the most care and concern and felt most invested in during that time.
Speaker 3:That's a great question. I would definitely say that any of the discussions well, first of all, I was the head of the four committee on mercy, so I could say that that was where I was most of my mind was happening, and the amazing thing about that is how churches that we highlighted and I would say that was one of the struggles is you try and do business as hard to highlight certain ministries, but talking about the mercy that goes on in all of our churches, corporately and individually, was a good discussion that I had with a lot of people, I would say on a personal level, and really I think Pastor Almond would agree that there is a reality that a lot of the good stuff that happens doesn't happen when you're watching live stream, but the conversations you're having, the friends you see, you look in the whole crowd. You have 2,000 people really putting all this together and every one of them is there for the sake of the love, of the gospel and the faith in this gospel, and so to me, that's part of you are trusting that the people who are there are all there for the same purpose, and obviously it looks different and is different, but they're there with the same convictions, which is just incredibly humbling. As you said, you go to West Coast, east Coast, even in the Midwest. I mean, we're struggling just to find our identity of OK, how does the church function in today's world?
Speaker 3:So that conversation also, I would say probably one of the biggest highlights and I heard this from all of the delegates from my district and talking to others is just the connections with churches around the world, different church bodies we went to fellowship with and, knowing the number of people who are part of that process, I mean these church bodies were revetted pretty closely. It was not like, oh, I'm a Lutheran, oh, ok, good, you're coming in. They're vetted very appropriately and thoroughly and so they're serious, they have conviction and every one of them I talked about four of the bishops personally and every one of them just can't stop talking about what we say is Augsburg, confession 4, justification by Faith. They said that is everything of why we're with you and why we confess what we do. So maybe that's more than you wanted, but they're no, that's great I love that.
Speaker 2:I think he speaks to culture.
Speaker 4:That was probably some of the most inspiring stuff for me too is seeing the fellowship that exists with church bodies outside of our borders. I absolutely love that.
Speaker 2:Yep, yep, and you speak to culture. I mean, there was a general sense and, probably being my third here, brady, I don't know, did you go to any as a pastor?
Speaker 3:I went once Did you attend a couple.
Speaker 2:You went once.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, of the three that I've attended and I wrote this in a blog recently I mean it was the most charitable.
Speaker 2:Even on the issues that could be kind of contentious and whether it's pastoral formation, the Concordia system, concordia Texas conversation, I thought there was more charity and kindness generally between the delegates, both when we're on the floor and then when we're with one another outside the floor. And so, yeah, made new friends and that was all really good. But probably, jack, I think the unique reality of the convention is every person's context and kind of the points of doctrine that are most important to them are gonna shape what they wanna get to the microphone and talk about. Right, so you see something that comes off the floor like ah, I think this could be kind of a slam dunk. But another nod to President Harrison and he's done this in number. He knows he's got a pretty good pulse of the room about the topics that we need to let breathe, we need to let folks get to the mic and share, and a couple of them like I wouldn't and I can't remember right off hand right now Some of them are like wow, this should be probably a little quicker or not.
Speaker 4:So yeah, he did a nice job. I wanted to give him props for that. Yeah, no, I wanted to give him props for that because I felt like he did a great job. I'm just trying to think of myself like an eight hour day just being a parliamentarian, being a mediator, just letting people talk and trying to do that in a way that is like as impartial as possible and faithful as possible to allow dialogue to happen. I thought he did that well, yeah.
Speaker 3:And I'll say this too, guys, is that one? I don't look forward to running my first district convention. That made me a little terrified of oh my, I'm gonna have to do that now. And there was a little bit of times where you weren't quite sure when he might have me go up to the podium, because there's a number of district presidents, vice presidents, who went up there, so he could, I'm assuming and I have to know this to kind of gather his thoughts and I thought that was a really wise move.
Speaker 3:Other vice presidents and district presidents went up there and kind of, maybe some low times not low times, or he doesn't have to do as much, and so it made me like, oh Lord, have mercy, so pray for your district president I know President Gibson is yours and pray for others as they just try to make all that happen, because ultimately, everybody wants what's best for the kingdom, and so I appreciate your words because I agree props to him and trying to let people be able to speak and pray their way through everything.
Speaker 2:With sometimes rude behavior that takes place, and it's easy to respond to rudeness with rudeness. It was highly tempting. And I thought highly highly tempting.
Speaker 1:What is it that I want? I mean, he's getting interrupted.
Speaker 2:A lot of different fronts Point of order, point of order, parliamentary inquiry, all that kind of stuff and it's just a part of the dance. There's no other way. I've thought about it a lot. There's probably no other ways to do it. I think there could be more prep.
Speaker 2:Here's what I would say could increase our unity. There could be more preparation in allowing the respective and I don't know, maybe in the social media day and age and the digital age in which we live, that respective delegates could be able to share in a personal way their goals for whatever the office that they have been nominated for. Maybe there's a way for from Senate presidents all the way down vice president, et cetera. I mean, maybe there's more of an opportunity for delegates to be a little bit more informed, not just about the theology, but also to get to know the personality of that individual who could be leading. Maybe there's some opportunity for growth there. All right, what are your hopes, pastor? Finnern, district president, what are your hopes as you look at the landscape of the Lutheran Church of Missouri Synod over the next triennium, the next three years?
Speaker 3:Well, a few things. First of all, that one of the joys that we do have and we have to really work hard on this is for each baptized depressive believers, workers, pastors, so forth, to be very clear. And we do this and we just have to really continually work hard at it. It's proclaiming the pure gospel, that this word is true, that Christ died and died and rose from the dead, and that for the world, that means it includes you. I think about this a lot because, if you were to, when I visit with congregations, when we go through the pre-call process, when they have a vacancy whether it's a church worker or a pastor is one of the first questions I asked challenge them is what is the gospel? And sometimes people kinda bark at me like, wow, you know what the gospel is, and you're like, okay, all right, let's get the scripture passages out and let's talk through it.
Speaker 3:And I'm not trying to be mean or anything like that, but I think a lot of times we struggle just to be able to proclaim what the gospel is, and so that's one of my hopes is we're proclaiming it and it's in front of us all the time and the hope we have is that.
Speaker 3:I mean, just think about it. We have so much of it and we could be better at proclaiming it and the opportunities that we have every single day for this, you know. But gosh, those who love in us that while we were still sinners, christ died for us. And that's great to be able to say to you and I love that too and what you're doing at your church and school is that that opportunity is there every day in a world that basically never forgives. It's always forgive, but I'll never forget. And we're able to say, not only does our Lord forgive, but he forgets, because it's all in His shoulders. And so that's where the hope is right, and everything that we do in the next Ryan and Maryny Tri-Nam is that that is happening already, but also that it can just think it could be even better. Which is kind of amazing for me to think about is that we could even be better at proclaiming this wonderful gospel.
Speaker 4:The second thing go ahead. How do you feel like gospel proclamation gets cloudy? Where do you see that happening?
Speaker 3:It gets cloudy because people will they'll, they'll, short side it and act as if. Well, you heard it already. Therefore I don't need to say it again. I'll give an example. One of them is that before my kids I have four children, like Pastor Almond said, and they're teenagers now, but still I try to give them a blessing every time before they go to bed. It's a little harder when they're ready to stay up late and I'm ready to go to bed at 9.30 now, but anyways, I'll give them a blessing.
Speaker 3:It always starts with me saying Kaisa, sophie, my oldest, and Christ, you are forgiven. And when my young, my second daughter I have three daughters and a boy, my second daughter when she was a little, one time she I gave her a blessing, gave her forgiveness in Christ, and then she turned around and she put her hand in my head and said in Christ, daddy, in Christ you are forgiven. And I think that's where we get cloudy is that we we don't say those kinds of words directly to somebody. We'll say well, you know, god loves, loves people, or whatever it might be. We don't say it straight up.
Speaker 3:You know, christ died for you. You know I'm sorry. God forgave that sin. That's on the cross, you know, move forward in grace, those kinds of that kind of strong proclamation and obviously that forthrightness, you know the proclamation of sin is along with that and that's very clear as well. So I would say that's where it gets cloudy, is that we'll kind of use general language that really can be interpreted in the world that God has love. You know that. Then don't worry, you know God's with you. Those kinds of things it doesn't get cloudy that it's wrong, it just needs to. It could be stronger.
Speaker 2:It's incomplete, incomplete. I love that. I love that discipline of and I've been when I talked to Pastor Christian Price, you know this is where we this is what we all agree on Like our homes, and from our homes into our churches, there needs to be that clarity of the love of God found through the forgiveness of sins and the life and salvation that flows from the cross of Jesus Christ and the hope that we have beyond the grave, because Christ has indeed been been risen for for us. And I think, as pastors, as leaders, we need to not forget what it's like not to know, because I don't know that. That takes place in a lot of our, a lot of our homes, with consistency, especially as we disciple our young ones. And that is our, that's our primary vocation to be a husband to my wife and then to be a father to my.
Speaker 2:No one else can. No one else can do that. And I think sometimes as pastors, because of the show, if you will, of Sunday or just the grind of ministry, sometimes we've forgotten the basics. So we need, we need to go back to the basics of speaking the gospel to our, to our kids and to our wives. Any any more thoughts there, pastor?
Speaker 3:Finner, do you allow me to I would say that you know it goes with, like like my daughter did to me. Is that proclamation to one another? You know?
Speaker 3:it's not just all on our shoulders, but it's reminding the kids and your bride to you know, proclaim that to you how sorely we need it. And because we talk a lot about in our church and this is very important that a pastor has a pastor and I think this goes along with our workers as well is that you have a pastor and sometimes it gets messy when, for example, you have a teacher-pastor relationship and in the administrative tasks and everything is to have that opportunity for individual confession and absolution to very least some kind of proclamation and prayer that you'll get from your pastor, and obviously that goes extends into other vocations as well. So it's just to be able to hear it as well. Like you said, the show was Sunday. I like that. I'm not gonna say it, but I like hearing it. It does get really hard not to think that you're kind of doing a show on Sunday morning and not receiving the gifts at the same time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, amen, amen. So in your district, and in all of our districts as well, today, there are a number of congregations that are small and some of them, some of them, getting smaller. You could look in the urban suburban and especially in the rural setting, which I know, you have a number of rural congregations. You have a strong goal to see more multi-conregational missions taking place. Could you talk about that? Yeah, sure, yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, gladly, and I will say that this is something I've grown into a little bit and I will continue to grow into and understanding the dynamics of it, because I personally have never served a dual or tri or multi-point parish. I never have served that but Minnesota North District, which, basically, if you take north of the Twin Cities and go all the way up to Canada, we have a few churches in Wisconsin, the church in South Dakota, which is maybe scandalous for some, but we figured out, thankfully, nothing in Canada. No, it's kidding, but we in our district we have 197 congregations and of the 197 congregations, 116 of them, which is just about 60%, are dual parishes, meaning they have one pastor, two parishes, tri parishes, which is a pastor with three parishes, or I've defined it this way a part-time parish, meaning that a pastor is serving Word and sacrament, being faithful, but he's not full-time and this is something I'll talk about too is he's bivocational, he's retired. We have one pastor who retired Navy and so he's just serving the congregations without pay, and that's great, but it is something that you know. We have 60% of our congregations, I believe. If you ever talked to President Seiler from South Dakota, I believe theirs is over 70%, and so this is a real challenge if we think of it as a failure. Right now I see the opportunities that the synodies even talking about.
Speaker 3:In May there was a multi-carrigation parish article in the Lutheran Witness that painted a wonderfully positive picture of the opportunities that are there in multi-point parishes.
Speaker 3:And you see that too, with bigger congregations right that are serving smaller parishes around them, is we're seeing that across the Synod.
Speaker 3:And Stacey Egger, who works for Lutheran Witness, works for the Synod. She went into that article thinking when I talked to her she went into that article thinking that she was going to have a hard time finding positive responses from people you know kind of like well, we failed, that's why we're in a new parish or we're going down quickly, that's why we have to be in a tri-parish. But she found completely the opposite that the pastors and the people she spoke to were excited about that opportunity to expand the reach of their ministry, excited about the opportunity to serve their neighbor. Obviously there's challenges. I'm not saying there aren't challenges, but a lot of times it is okay that at one time God gave wisdom to people to say we need the Word of God in this place and now they're able to do it more as the body of Christ, as opposed to saying no, this is my area, you know, stay away, this is my territory, or something that it really is, expanding the opportunities to proclaim that gospel, like I said in that place where God has planted them.
Speaker 2:Man. That's exciting. I think that is a big win that churches are wanting to work together, share people, share resources. So follow up to that Our number of those churches. I mean, because I think some of the stereotypes is well, if you're small, like they're kind of anti-growth, anti-community, anti-sharing the gospel they're just kind of relegated to. This is my church and we do things a certain way. I think that's the caricature of some of those. Is that true? Or how have you found that to be dismissed and not the truth? Because I hear collaboration man. It's like let's go, let's reach people with the gospel.
Speaker 3:It's never as easy as I wish. The positive words I'm saying is very true, but, yes, you do have those situations where the congregation like I want nothing to do with anybody else and so we're in this, but I don't like it. So don't get me wrong that that is very true. However, I've just been amazed more and more at how many people, first of all, love their church and also love that they are in a partnership. Give you one example there's one our first vice president of our district, reverend Dr Carl Weber, has been a pastor of what would be considered to be a bigger church, maybe for Minnesota and North, like 120 on Sunday and they are in a partnership and they've been doing it for years, as long as I can remember, because I grew up in this district and they were in a dual parish when I was a kid, and this church is like maybe 20.
Speaker 3:And that partnership is just beautiful because they have different kind of settings, they have different kind of ministry opportunities and every year this is what Pastor Weber says every year at the end of the year, the bigger church looks to the small church, st Paul's in Richville, and says what can we do more together, which is just awesome, and part of that is his leadership.
Speaker 3:Part of that is this how God has planted them that way, and so you do see that kind of opportunity because, for example, in that situation you have Otter Tail, which is surrounded by just vacation-y people in every which way Richville, so St John's and Otter Tail Richville is a little more on the outskirts of this and they don't have the vacationers as much as the locals and the people who have been there for generations, and so that is a whole different dynamic and ministry that the leadership has taken on. And so that's just one of those examples of how can we encourage them to think about the home life like we're talking about, but at the same time seeing the opportunities which they do, which is exciting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, there's so much opportunity, a smaller, I think, the future. What is the structure? Not just the cost but the makeup of a lot of smaller congregations moving forward, and I think we have no other choice but to see it as an opportunity to reach people with the gospel, rather than this kind of regression. We're not doing enough. Yeah, I love that posture. So I pray that in a lot of these rural settings that more churches are starting to work together and really a lot of that is driven by the lay leadership. Right, you're saying this is my church and our community needs this church. If these 20 people move off and we sell it and all that man, we lose a major kingdom asset. We're in the presence of Word and sacrament here in this place, and so, yeah, shout out to wonderful lay leaders who are holding fast, steadfast to the gospel and wanting it to be there, present for their kids and their grandkids moving forward.
Speaker 2:Let's shift topics here a little bit, brother. Let's talk about theology. So this is lead time. We talk about leadership and theology here. Get us under the hood of some leadership and theology emphases that you drive, especially as a district president. What are you really focused on?
Speaker 3:Well, right now I'll start with this, theologically speaking is visitations Is 197 congregations according to our bylaws. I'm supposed to visit all of them within a trianium, and so that has a lot to do with what I do and the specific focus that I have when I make visitations. And this is very challenging. I'm learning how to do. It is really okay. What is the soul care that one, the pastor and workers need so a lot of listening, a lot of application of God's Word to our workers and encouragement that they have.
Speaker 3:And this goes back to Acts 15, you know where Saul and Barnabas are like, hey, let's go back and see how the churches are doing. This is Acts 15, 31 through 36 or so, and it talks about at the end of that passage, 36, where it says and they went back and strengthened the churches, and so to me, that really is a call for us, as to me as a district president, is to visit the congregations, have a quick, quick to listen and even quicker to listen longer to them and that goes to the leadership as well and to see, kind of where their conscience is. And that's one of the big aspects too is do they have a clear conscience with the Lord, meaning that they see that their relationship with God. This is different than Gepetto and Pinocchio. Not your conscience, be your guide. But your conscience meaning how do I know my relation with other people, specifically as Christians are conscious with God and so as you listen is okay.
Speaker 3:Do they see this as God? You know that they have a right relationship with God, which is where the gospel comes in, and also the law gospel, but also understanding of what am I called to do in this place, and so that's why I need that reminder constantly too, is as when I was a pastor in a parish and our teachers and so forth is okay, what is your calling? Your calling is to preach and teach and administer the sacraments for our teachers, to proclaim the word of God, to care for those children and so forth. Always bring it back to the simplistic reality of what we do every single day. No-transcript, keep focus on that clear conscience and we hear that throughout the scriptures, the confessions is really making sure that our people, the baptized, understand their identity throughout their ministry and who we are as a body of Christ.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that means that you're deeply getting to know. Going back to lay leaders right, when you're analyzing the conscience, you're not just looking at pastors, you're looking at lay leaders. Would you tell me a story or two to encourage our listeners about lay leaders who have that clear kind of mission focused conscience, gospel law, gospel conscience. I'd love to hear a story or two, brother, absolutely.
Speaker 3:So a couple of weeks, a couple of months ago now time flies I was visiting a congregation that's celebrating 125 years and I talked to the elders. And we're talking and he's been a member of that church his whole life, whole life and I was just you're looking at everything and he's walking through the basement and he's showing me. In Minnesota, especially in the past, we had dart ball leagues, kind of like the metal version of corn row. Nowadays, I mean, it's just like. You see, remember as a kid I mean they had like these metal darts that were like this huge and those old codgers are throwing it at each other almost in the basement. Anyway, so he's showing me all these metals from the past and you kind of look at it like OK, all right, and I remember as a kid thinking that's bizarre, like what is? What are these leagues? I mean the church is about Jesus. I thought what about these? You know what's going on. So he's showing me that and he's showing me the kitchen, the basement and telling me the stories of different people and all this. And then he brings me to the sanctuary and he said that's where I was baptized and he was like, wow, you know.
Speaker 3:And then he's speaking about the stained glass windows, which I would encourage any of you or the listeners to look at the stained glass windows or the other imagery in your church. And if you ever go to an older church, I mean, these people were just, they were so rich in their faith that they made sure that everything that happened in the church would point you back to Jesus. And so he's showing me all these different stained glass windows and it's just phenomenal though the imagery, the baptismal imagery, the gospel imagery, and I asked one. I didn't know that one and it was. I can't remember exactly what the stained glass window was, but he said, oh, that's about Jesus. And then he just spoke. He's been there 80 plus years in this congregation and he just said and we are so blessed and this church has maybe 25 people on a Sunday.
Speaker 3:And so you can see that this was not only something that he had a pride in a building, even though he does. It was not just a pride in that this church is old or that his parents were here, but he was just speaking so much faith language. Especially as Minnesotans, we're not really good at expressing our emotions or always being good about this, but you're catching the words where he was just constantly speaking faith that even these Darpaul leaks, he said, would start with prayer and end with prayer. It was always something that they did out of motivation for what Christ had done for them. So that's one story of at least 30 that I've had as a district president, and how people speak about their church shows it's not just about the building.
Speaker 3:Actually, it's very little to do with the building. It was the people and the gifts they received all these years and they're able to articulate the gospel. This is why I used to. This is one of my regrets as a parish pastor. Sometimes I would rail on people for not saying the gospel correctly, but if you listen closely, they know the gospel and they're proclaiming it. Could it be clear? Absolutely, myself included. But they know the gospel and love the gospel so much that that's why they do what they do.
Speaker 2:That's one of my biggest frustrations and, jack, I'd love to get your take on this, because Jack didn't grow up as a Missouri Synod Lutheran. You're a pastor's kid, right, righty and.
Speaker 2:I'm a third generation LCMS and some of my laments are that we're not especially in social media and, jack, you're there more than I am we're just not kind with one another and then focusing on what we agree on, which is the clear proclamation of the gospel, word and sacrament, the gifts of baptism, the real presence of Christ in the Lord's table, and that we can just get a little dissonant with each other and just disagreeable in general.
Speaker 2:And I think some of that flows maybe our Germanic, maybe stoic heritage. That contributes to our lack of kind of winsomeness maybe from time to time. With the gospel and I think there's a new, I think in our generation, pastor Fennin, I think there's the Holy Spirit is always at work to create and sustain faith and I think the Holy Spirit is bringing us together now in a powerful way Small churches, large churches and it really comes down to telling the gospel, telling the story of who Jesus is and what he's done, and then telling the stories in all different sorts of contexts about how the Lord is at work and kind of then just shrugging our shoulders at the areas where we get a little cross with one another and agree on the clear proclamation of the gospel. Anything to add on that, jack?
Speaker 4:Yeah, I think, going off of piggybacking off of the earlier conversation about the gospel, sharing the gospel you are forgiven, I am forgiven, we are forgiven in Christ, and if we know that, if that's the number one thing that's defining our identity, then how should that inform the kind of conversations we have with each other? When we talk about what's the best way to do ministry, it should be the most joyful, peaceful type of conversations you can imagine, and I understand that there's sin. We're still carrying our sin with us and we're forgiven for it, and it's just. It's shocking to me sometimes to see the type of conflicts and the types of arguments and the type of language that we use with each other. So I lament that.
Speaker 4:I understand why it happens, but I lament it a lot, and it can be difficult maybe for people to observe those types of conversations, and so I can imagine that you've dealt with this a lot as a district president. You've probably been called into multiple situations where something is not going right at the local congregation. People are not talking to themselves, talking to each other the right way, and so I'm curious to hear other people's perspectives on it. But that's my observation. I understand why it happens, but I lament it and I'm kind of curious to know what is your approach when that type of thing happens in a local congregation or even maybe across congregations, or conversations that happen on social media, pastors maybe getting heated with each other about certain topics. What is your approach to that, or have you had that kind of experience in a district president role?
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I'm still learning on how exactly to work through that, and I appreciate you using the word lament is because I think one of our issues that we've had is that we haven't been able to lament. What we need to lament and this is why we have the book of Lamentations. This is why literally 61 of 61 chapters of the Psalms are lament or imprecatory Psalms is that we're not good at allowing people to lament. And, as you mentioned about allowing that space to be able to speak at the same convention is so vital because people need to say something and sometimes you hear yourself and you're like wait, that's not, that's not right. But thanks be to God, you let me say it, because now I can actually filter through it in my own mind, and so that's one of the big things I get talked about being quick to listen, and even quicker to listen. Longer is to be able to hear.
Speaker 3:What is the soul care issue here? What is the soul issue? Is it an identity issue? That I'm not. I'm struggling in my faith. Is it a conflict? Is actually affecting your faith? Is it something where you want to be faithful to God's word and you need assurance that what you're doing is actually faithful to God's word, or I'm having a hard time really loving my brother right now, and that's a soul care issue. And so a lot of that comes down to a lot, a lot of listening.
Speaker 3:And for me, I'm learning because we're very blessed with different organizations like ambassadors of reconciliation. They work a lot with these things to put everybody under the word of God, while realizing that if we think that the church will just get along just because we're just fooling ourselves, and so we need to be able to work better at listening to one another and having, I would say, more upfront personal conversations with the people of whom we're frustrated with, because, well, in the body of Christ, we will admit that, hey, we're together in this thing, right, we're together in this thing, so that. But that's a challenge. Don't get me wrong. I'm not a guy who's like oh, I don't like what that guy just said. Therefore, I'm going to go and confront him and talk to him as a brother. No, sometimes you're like, I kind of hope that goes away, you know that kind of thing.
Speaker 3:So yeah, so that's a challenge I asked for your prayers to be honest, oh man for sure.
Speaker 2:For all district presidents, anybody who has supervising responsibilities, for sure, ecclesiastical supervision yeah, we tried to set up at the ULC this, this table, and you may have seen us having conversation around. One of them was the LCMS needs. More routes toward ordination changed my mind and we're trying to be like super. We just wanted to have honest dialogue about how the church can can be healthy now and into the future around the topic of pastoral formation and really church worker for formation, commission minister formation as well, and not many pastor, not many people wanted to, wanted to talk, which is kind of kind of interesting, you know. But then they I know a number of people have really strong opinions and I think if anybody's listening to us, I'm not going to be I mean, hopefully not mean or like ill will toward them. Like you can have that a lot of the conversations we're having are around things that are audiophore. Like I don't find in scripture, in the confessions, where it mandates a certain way to do it. So we have a little bit more. We should have a little bit more charity and then and then curiosity around different ways that the Lord is not just shaping leaders but leading the church in this in this day and age.
Speaker 2:But, yeah, we, we avoid conflict, that you get back to your conscience, right? Is my conscience clear, being able to speak what I truly believe, especially if it's something centered in the never changing word of God? Because if I don't, if I don't, you go back to Luther. I am beholden by scripture and my conscience to speak, I can do no other. Right? I mean, this is, this is a serious thing, and and yet I don't.
Speaker 2:I think a lot of times, culturally, just this is not just Lutherans and Christian, this is just in our, in our culture, we, we don't have the courage to speak as the Holy Spirit gives us the reason, and I think it's a relational thing, it's an identity thing. I don't know how it's going to go. So if I could pray for one thing, for just every baptized believer, pastor Finn, and it would be more, more courage, holy Spirit, gospel inspired, jesus, infused courage to speak a word of law, maybe to our brother, with listening and charity, but then obviously to lead with the gospel, to end with the gospel, the love of Christ for those who are broken, by saying anything else to add about the the maybe the passive nature that a lot of us find ourselves in, especially around topics that could be controversial.
Speaker 3:Well, I think part of it too, is not simply that we're passive, is that we're trying to understand? What's being said. One moment. I know there was a moment at one of our district conventions where someone was really mad at President Harrison and they were talking about, you know, diversity, equity, inclusion and very much so just wanted to talk about this is what I'm seeing, and President Harrison didn't really say much.
Speaker 3:And somebody came up later and apologized for that, because the person was very caustic. They were definitely not speaking as kind. You know, it was not words with salt, they were not salty in a good, positive way. And a person apologized and said I'm sorry that you received this. And President Harrison said this. He said no, I am glad that they're able to say this, and I, the way I am, I'm thinking through everything they're saying is I have to consider it, and so that's sometimes where we don't we don't always interpret what the other person's going on in their mind, and so we want quick responses when sometimes we need to be more patient, and so I don't really know how that all fits.
Speaker 3:I know that I need a lot of patience from people because you're listening, you're like, oh man, I never thought of that before, and our natural reaction is to bite right away as opposed to listen even further and go back to the scriptures with one another. So the passive that's where I'm trying to think through, the passive nature that we have. Part of it is we don't want conflict. I think part of it is we're just trying to think through. How does this all relate to what I've been doing, and how many of us want to say, oh, you know what, what I did might not have been the best, and so it's hard to repent as well in the midst of this. So a lot of learning, a lot of going back, a lot of going back and fixing our eyes on Jesus, as the author tells us in Hebrews Amen.
Speaker 2:Amen and having as our friend. You know, people by nature put the worst, construction that's your finger and on silence, right, yeah, yeah, if I don't hear anything from leadership or from you know I mean you fill in the gap with negativity.
Speaker 2:The human mind goes toward negativity much more consistently than it does toward oh, that's but the best construction on that, that silence. So tell me more listening, whatever it, whatever it may be, and and also recognizing that social media. Well, we can have these kind of debates regarding we haven't even gotten into some things, pastor Finner that we may have different, nuanced, contextual perspectives toward today, and that's just fine. We want to fight for our, our right, truth, right, and what we've lost, then, is relationship. We don't see, we don't hear telling, we don't see the face, all those, all those types of things. So let's close. Let's close with something that could be a little, a little, you know. Let's talk about wine, women and song. Which one of those, pastor Finner, would you love? Would you love to close on?
Speaker 1:And let me, let me, let me which one I'm?
Speaker 2:I'm, this is an honest question. Which one of those three do you think the church needs to give the most attention to in this context so that the gospel proclamation goes forward? So we talk admitting to the Lord's Supper, which we did talk about us in a convention, the liturgy in a number of different forms, and then the role of because we had some resolutions that talked about women's suffrage and kind of whoa, it was kind of we didn't, we didn't talk about that necessarily, but but women in leadership speaking in the church. Which one of those do you think we really need to hone in on and find clarity and unity around? Pastor Finner, that's a great question.
Speaker 3:I'm gonna, I'm gonna kind of turn that back to you a little bit, because I'm I'm not quite ready for it right now, but I, but I, because all three are something that tend to be at the forefront, and I'll say this too that each one of them has a conscience issue as well. Okay, what is the soul care issue in this? So, are you saying context, my context, or you're just saying Senate context?
Speaker 2:No, I want to know, in your context, as you work with your 197 congregations, what is your primary emphasis as it relates to those three points of doctrine.
Speaker 3:What I would say that, as far as what I would deal with the most is the question of the role of the church and the culture, and I would put that in the song portion of it. So Minnesota North overall is, you would have not a huge spectrum but the spectrum of probably more middle of the road liturgy, meaning that they're following the hymn, though in a sense they're not doing the intro necessarily, they're not doing a lot of bells and whistles and so forth, but they're kind of just following the service, maybe even do a more simple liturgy. And it's not so much that is an issue, as much of it is what's the reason for worship? Why are we worshiping? What's the place of worship in our culture as it is in different places? And so then you get a little bit of the generational question of like a new seminarian comes in and he starts chanting and people kind of start flipping out like oh my gosh, I can't believe this guy's chanting. This is terrible without asking the question of, okay, what is worship? We haven't had a lot of controversy over quote contemporary styles or more simple, mainly because we don't have a lot of it, not to say that we're necessarily against all of those kinds of styles per se, but it really comes down to the question of, well, people who are maybe upset about a more simple or even a contemporary worship service, they might be upset about this. For the same reason. They're against chanting is okay, what is what are we doing here? What is actually happening here? And so I've dealt a lot more with that of, okay, you're kind of mad about acts in the worship service or how.
Speaker 3:The approach was, well, why? And then to talk through, okay, what's actually happening here and what is the freedom that we have and where are the important aspects that really what we do shows what we believe, you know. So, like confession, absolution, is it absolutely mandated? It has to be in every service? Well, no, but it reflects what we believe and therefore what we do and need forgiveness. So let's do, let's give it to them, you know, at those kind of office of the keys and John, chapter 20. So a lot of that is really where how far is the freedom? How far do we go with understanding of what is needed and what isn't? But also, ultimately comes onto this what's happening when we gather for worship and how do we make sure that's very clear with everybody there?
Speaker 2:Well, what's at stake, right?
Speaker 2:The gospel is at stake, I would say worship is the primary thing. The church we gather around word. We gather to receive the forgiveness of sins. We gather to be shaped by the word as we carry out our respective vocations. We gather to receive the body and blood of Christ for the forgiveness of our sins.
Speaker 2:The liturgy maintaining the liturgy I don't care whether it's, you know, an organ or it's a guitar or whatever like maintaining the guts of God's story, god's love story centered in the person and work of Jesus, is one of the primary differentiators for confessional Lutheranism in the broader evangelical Christian landscape today.
Speaker 2:Like if we lose, if we lose that, we lose an awful, an awful lot.
Speaker 2:When I came to Christ Greenfield you know, because I'm a type A driven people know I've I sing and I've led contemporary worship for gosh since I was in high school, for sure, but the older I get, pastor Finner, the more like I don't want to be like like legalistic about this but the more I think the guts of our liturgy must be maintained.
Speaker 2:Because when I came here there was a certain group of leaders who were we were moving. I think we had a Sunday night, contemporary, you know, a youth kind of service and things in our context, difference of bourbon, you know, larger congregation and they were, they were kind of stripping a lot of the guts of the of the liturgy out for trendy purposes or something. And I kind of I kind of said, nah, we're not, we're not gonna do that and that's a you know kind of awkward conversations and just like I'm not going to be like forceful about much, but we're not gonna. We're not gonna strip what is our heritage as it relates to telling, because the liturgy tells the story of God's love for you, for us as as a people of God, and the evangelical world doesn't have that with just, you know, 30 minutes of singing and a 30, 40 minute minute message. Anything more to add there, jack?
Speaker 4:Yeah, I know I I love the approach that that you've brought here to Christ Greenfield and you know I'm a big fan of both styles of worship that we do.
Speaker 4:We fully embrace traditional styles of worship and contemporary.
Speaker 4:But when we do contemporary, I would describe it as a liturgical contemporary service, in that there's always these sort of elements in there that you can always count on having. And even as you're playing modern music, it is really cool to kind of take a moment and say, okay, now we're going to say the creeds and this creed now ties us back to the church thousand plus years and you have something in common with them in this confession and I think it's a really cool thing and I think people, you know, I think people appreciate that and it is a, it is a differentiator that I appreciate a lot about what we do. So that's that's the yay part I love about the. You know and I think that's some of the debate that goes on about the word liturgical is that genuinely liturgical? Because there are people that would say, well, because it's a stage and not, you know, not your traditional altar with a rail and there's guitar and drums, that's not genuine Lutheran worship. But I genuinely personally believe that it is genuine Lutheran worship.
Speaker 3:And it is. It is interesting too. We all have to ask the question what? What is the purpose of doing X, whatever it might be, and not for the purpose of well? I don't think everyone understands that. Therefore, we get rid of it. But the opportunity to teach and also to ask okay, so what's your alternative?
Speaker 3:For example, after we take communion, you have this in the divine services. In our hymn, though, we often will have the song of Simeon, and you think about the imagery we have there is that here's Simeon holding Jesus. Is everything's been fulfilled? Lord, I'm good, I'm good, I got this. This goes back to clear conscience. We sing that, especially in the old divine service setting three and Lord, now, how, let us all lie. Servant, depart in peace. I mean it. Just it brings back, just like that guy that I had the conversation with, they've started singing that he'll be able to sing it right there. I've sung it at funerals because this is something this individual saying their whole life. They were comforted to say I'm good, I'm good with God, I'm good here, and to say, okay, you know what. You can have something else live and freedom, right. But let's talk about this and say, okay, what's your alternative?
Speaker 3:And I think you know Luther had this kind of understanding of okay, there's, there's ways, he has a purpose, make sure it's pointing to Christ and not just because I'm not, I'm not doing that because I don't like that. Therefore, I'm doing this, but let's talk theologically. Let's look at Jesus, and to me, sometimes I'm just not, I'm a simple guy, so it's like I'll do the nonchalance because I don't know what else to do. You know, I'm just not. I'm just not good at this creative thing, and so there's a lot of that that we can just unpack in a beautiful way that really captures the heart of like what Pastor Almond said so beautifully of, of what's going on in worship and pointing us back to Christ. So, yeah, that, yeah, I love. I love how you guys are speaking about this.
Speaker 2:District President Finnern, this has been a lot of fun. Brother, I'd love to have you back on. Thank you for your kindness, your charity of time and for your wisdom and your leadership for the church in your district. I'll be praying for you and would love, would love to get to know you better into the future. If people want to connect with you and the work of your district, how can they do so?
Speaker 3:Well, send me an email. Bradyfinnern at mnnlcmsorg. Bradyfinnern at mnnlcmsorg.
Speaker 2:Love it, love it. This is lead time, sharing, it's caring. Please like, subscribe, comment, wherever it is that you're taking in this podcast, and we're going to continue to have a lot of conversations that that focus on, yes, leadership and also focus on the culture of the LCMS and our need for unity and when we disagree, we disagree agreeably. And going back to the convention, man, I think that's what we, we saw. Whether it was disagreement, there was charity, there was kindness, jesus was, was glorified. It's a good day. Go and make it a great day by the power of the word and the spirit. We'll see you next week on lead time. Thanks Jack, thanks Brady, appreciate it.
Speaker 4:Thank you, god bless.
Speaker 1:You've been listening to lead time, a podcast of the Unite Leadership Collector. The ULC's mission is to collaborate with the local church to discover, develop and deploy leaders through biblical Lutheran doctrine and innovative methods to partner with us in this gospel message. Subscribe to our channel and go to theuniteletorshiporg to create your free login for exclusive material and resources and then to explore ways in which you can sponsor an episode. Thanks for listening and stay tuned for next week's episode.