Lead Time
Lead Time
Revitalizing Lutheran Values in a Digital Age with Dr. Gretchen Jameson
Have you ever pondered the deep roots of the Lutheran Church or how technology has reshaped our worship communities? Join us as we traverse these fascinating topics with Dr. Gretchen Jameson, a seasoned member of the LCMS. Gretchen sheds light on her longing to resurrect certain values within the church, and offers thought-provoking reflections on the balance of maintaining a 'village mentality' amidst a rapidly modernizing church landscape.
Our conversation with Gretchen goes beyond theology, delving into her experiences in leadership and her ability to connect with people who view the world differently. For Gretchen, stepping into unfamiliar spaces, often bathed in secularism, did not dampen her Lutheran values but rather fortified them. She shares her wisdom on why understanding learning theory and harnessing the power of curiosity are key to engaging an increasingly post-Christian world.
As we wrap up, we touch upon the somewhat contentious issue of female leadership within the LCMS. Gretchen candidly shares her own experiences, a mix of support and spiritual abuse. We explore several biblical practices that have helped Gretchen cultivate her own well-being, including reflective practice and contemplative prayer. We also delve into the role of emotional intelligence in navigating challenging interactions and fostering understanding. An episode not to be missed, if you desire to gain a deeper understanding of the complexities and opportunities entwined within our faith communities.
Join the Lead Time Newsletter! (Weekly Updates and Upcoming Episodes)
https://www.uniteleadership.org/lead-time-podcast#newsletter
Visit uniteleadership.org
Leigh Time is a podcast of the Unite Leadership Collective hosted by Tim. Ollman and Jack Calliberg. The ULC envisages the future in which all congregations fully equip the priesthood of all the believers through world-class leadership development at the local level. Leigh Time taps into biblical wisdom for practical solutions to today's burning issues. Each podcast confronts real-time struggles facing the local church in a post-Christian culture. Step into the action with the ULC at unitel leadershiporg. This is Leigh Time.
Speaker 2:Welcome to Leigh Time, tim Ollman. Here and today I get the privilege of getting to hang out with Dr Gretchen Jamison. She is an amazing leader, gretchen. I've heard you speak in a number of different settings and just been amazed at your wisdom, your poise, your leadership gifts. And then I find out that you got your EDD in organizational leadership development, which is pretty much what my doctorate of ministry was in as well. So we're going to have so much fun talking today. She is an entrepreneur, an innovator, leadership guru. In higher ed she has been an amazing, amazing servant. But more than that, she is in on Leigh Time.
Speaker 2:Here we talk about a number of different vocations your wife of 25 years to Leon, and then two wonderful ladies Sydney, you're telling me, she's a sparring professional ballerina that's spectacular. And then Rielle in fifth grade. So thanks so much for hanging with me today. On Leigh Time we have an LCMS audience, primarily, as I was just letting you know, and why theologically. Let's just talk theology. Why are you a part of the LCMS Lutheran Church of Zerch and Gretchen? Thanks for hanging with me today, man.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it is great to be on Leigh Time and it is always fun to talk shop and all the things that go around our lives outside of our shop with awesome, engaged, spirit-led servant leaders like yourself. So thank you for the invitation. The Lutheran Church Missouri Senate is the church of my birth. I guess you could say that's part of it, right, which I actually think is important to acknowledge Child of two Lutheran educators, just retired after 45 years as commission ministers and the LCMS teachers both of them and so that's the world that I've known, right, my undergraduate at Concordia University, nebraska, and then my first teaching call, actually in Milwaukee, where my husband and I live today. It's been a part of my life, right, every age, every stage. But really, as you get older and I'm older than you you realize, oh gosh, we have choices. Yeah, I'm married to an LCMS pastor, so maybe I don't have as many choices, but you have choices.
Speaker 3:Why stick it out? And I think for me people will say, well, we need to be a church that isn't my grandfather's church. Well, quite frankly, I loved my grandfather's church in the Lutheran Church Missouri Senate. I would love to see us get back to my grandfather's church in the Lutheran Church, missouri Senate, and I feel that we offer the world just a beautiful expression of God's grace in Christ and an answer to so much of the malady that faces our culture, because we understand and recognize where that strength comes from, in the grace and purpose of Christ Jesus and his sacrificial death for us, and I feel like we have something that we bring to the table as LCMS, lutherans, as Lutherans, I'll say more broadly, corporate senate being what any human organization is, so that's kind of why. That's kind of why, I guess, so, good, so good.
Speaker 2:Well, it's all about the solos right I just hear you leaning in. It is about sograzia and the grace of God, which is radically undeserved in that divine exchange that comes by faith given in the waters of baptism and sustained by the spirit connected to the never changing word. So, thank you. You talk about your grandpa's church. That's fascinating. You're like I'd like for us to go back to grandpa's church. Many of the characteristics as you think about your grandpa's church a couple generations ago in the LCMS, what would you like to see values of your grandpa's church see valued today?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think that, and this I would suggest is sort of a broad issue across sort of Protestant religion in America today, but a return to kind of our first love being Christ Jesus and his church. Right, I think often in America we idolize and elevate systems and kind of a me first narrow self-interest that is toxic and difficult to overcome. It's part of our strength in our culture, self-determination and all that. But it also becomes really tricky when it infiltrates our religious experience.
Speaker 3:And I think back to what I understood to be true of my grandfather's church and my grandparents actually were part of a long established church in St Joseph, michigan and then actually helped church plant a church back in the 1960s and so I saw a humility of spirit, an understanding and a recognition of being a part of their community civically as well as through their church, a recognition of priesthood of all believers and both were lay people, german farm people, but a recognition of the power of each person to contribute their gifts and ministry, whether lay a T or called. And it just was a beautiful expression and I guess we all long for a simpler time. I read an article recently I think it was in the Atlantic that said that's actually a fallacy Like that's not true. There wasn't like a better time. We all think that, but I'd like to think that maybe there was something different going on, a little less hyper politicized, I think, would be my hope for what we could become as a church again.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I agree with that, and I don't know that there's any going back, given the technological revolution that we've walked through. You just didn't know about as much then, gretchen, you know. So, I think, the village mentality. I've been doing a lot of thinking. I actually renovated a sermon that I was not just yesterday I don't normally do this, but it was Saturday night. This has probably happened a handful of times in 15 years as a pastor. Normally I see it on Saturday, but I was like it was all about relationship. It was all about relationship and the Lord gave me this vision, or a visual of the rings of relationship. Obviously, jesus is at the center, he's the one that claims us, and then I'm put in right relationship with God by faith in Jesus, and then I'm in a family unit and then I'm in a friend unit and you can see the three, the 12, the 70, with Jesus is kind of outer circle as his ministry moved. And so then you've got from the family friends and you've got that kind of village mentality.
Speaker 2:Christ Greenfield is a church. In school we call ourselves a family of ministries. There's about 100 people or so. I know more people than that, but about 100 people that. I know them and I know their story deeply. And then you find yourself in the state, nation and world and what's happened today, that's kind of untethered us, is a lot of the anxiety has skipped right, because loneliness is the number one epidemic. A lot of that anxiety has skipped. Maybe if your family unit's been torn apart and you don't have deep friendships and then the role of the church or some sort of an organization that tethers you deeply in relationship, you go straight to worrying about things that are way beyond your control in the national, global, and there's way more information that we take in today. Any response to that, how we're kind of relationally untethered today and how that this is a deeper question how that impacts us as the Lutheran Church of Missouri Synod in our love and care for one another.
Speaker 3:Oh well, you touch on so many pieces there?
Speaker 2:Simple question.
Speaker 3:Telling that your degree is in organizational systems and leadership. We can even just apply a systems lens to that and really think about this idea of locus of control and what really lies within my capacity for influence, which is good and necessary and really gaining clarity around what is in my sphere of real impact, real control, and beginning to develop a healthy relationship with the things that really are a part of the world, that God's placed around me, versus things way out there. So I think there's something to that because, you're right, not only are these very far flung impact points brought right into our hands, right Right into our sense of space, but we also feel like we need to say something about it or comment on it or take action around it. And so I think there's something there I think about with respect to even just any corporate church, corporate denomination, and I really have been, in recent years, very clear when I speak about the difference between the church and the corporate structure of the church, because those are not the same thing, and I think the mental model that we put on something is really key, right, and so, just speaking about our own lived experience and the synod ink in the corporate church, we've adopted a political model.
Speaker 3:A political model delegates and votes and bylaws, and we love those bylaws.
Speaker 3:And so it becomes very difficult when we've imposed that schema on things, to think any differently about what's really going on there. When we've imposed a model on it that is frankly a secular political model, and you're going to get what you get. And so I observe that now, two and a half years out of the system, no longer kind of earning my professional paycheck through the system and I'm just very curious about it. I don't have an answer to it. I'm not trying to make some big sweeping assertion about it, but it does intrigue me that as we watch political gamesmanship at our national stage civically and how that works I was a caucus delegate once years ago, years ago back in Missouri and then you watch how that in civic politics and then you watch how that plays out in church politics and something isn't square there for me and I'm not sure this side of it, how we avoid that. But I think the model we've imposed on the system has a lot to do with what we're getting out of the system, I think.
Speaker 2:Well, no, I think that's very fair. And the only I've thought deeply about how could Synod convention be different? I don't need to spend a lot of time there, but I don't know exactly how it could. It's such a and there's good and there's ill with this is such a kind of a machine that all the different kind of interconnected that's the systems there here right, and you pull on one lever too hard, the another, another piece is gonna become disrupted, and so you kind of get to this, while you just kind of gotta live and let live and we're gonna balance, balance one another out.
Speaker 2:Hopefully, at the national level where I'm, where I'm left, it's all about relationship, right, it's all about relationship at at the circuit level, congregation to congregation, and then I can have a relationship with my district president and hopefully that is a relationship of love and care and trust.
Speaker 2:But really, beyond that kind of location of web, that web of love and care and support, it can get sideways. Then, when we start to Say things and I can be guilty of this, I certainly confess that same things becoming discontent and putting maybe the worst construction on a senate president or other leaders and presidents of other institutions, I'm not in consistent relationship with them, nor are they with me. So how do we At the, for those of us that are striving to say, and this is the dance right, the local church, the mission of the local church is a big deal hello, are you? Are you recognizing the changing times in which we live? And and really the difficulty of being a parish pastor? Everybody agrees with that. So Is there is their communication that is flowing freely between a number of the heads of our institution, kind of the gatekeepers, and those of us that are on the grass, at the grass root level.
Speaker 3:And I think we could do better there and that's honestly why One of the main reasons I do the podcast so that there can be that open line of communication, so that trust Can be built save more on that and we know, as leaders, right, and as we develop as leaders, this ability to hold space for and to actively actually seek and rehearse relationships with people who are Very different from ourselves and recognize the capacity that I think you know fundamentally we are called to.
Speaker 3:As we observe, all human life is divided by a divine God who loves all and seeks their redemption, and that undergirds at all.
Speaker 3:But to truly embrace that, that human, and to Develop relation, to rehearse relationships with people who are very different from you is requires a certain intentionality by a leader and, and I think it's really important because it allows us to build up that muscle In terms of how we can, how we can lead more clearly in in our own value set right, because I learned how to frame it, how to speak it, how, and I'll tell you, you know there's these last Couple of years for me. You know God had a different leading for me, a different, a different train to get on a different track, and it's been just a beautiful gift of of really being in some pretty high level spaces with secular folk and learning how to have my plumb line and how to be clear. That's been a tremendous gift in my own leadership. I think that I think is probably going to help me in in church context, be a little bit more tolerant frankly of of those with whom I may very much disagree. I think.
Speaker 2:Let's yeah, let's lean into that. You're in the secular, you work at Ripple works right now and You've been in human performance in a human performance company last couple years and just waiting on, potentially next into the nonprofit world. Maybe church institutions will see what the Lord may have for you. But in the last two and a half years, what are the primary lessons leadership lessons you've learned that could have a deep impact in how we relate to one another and and how the church goes about goes about her ministry.
Speaker 3:Well, first of all, it's been phenomenal fun, right, to have the opportunity to carry my Lutheran passion and clear vision for vocation and how we understand the dignity of every human into secular spaces and, frankly, be handed, in the case of building the human performance center, well over a four million dollar budget to launch a human performance center that impacts our community, folks of all backgrounds. That is not something you get to do every day. What a gift, what a phenomenal gift. And but to be able to think carefully about how we help people understand the dignity that they carry and what that means for them, for our community and yes, right, for the things of God, as we live out our faith and invite People to be curious about that. And it's happened, tim. It happens all the time.
Speaker 3:You know, choosing to earn my doctorate at the University of Southern California was a very specific choice on my part. I've been in Lutheran Ed my whole life, my master's at Webster University in St Louis, but Lutheran Ed my whole life and I wanted to be in a context as different as possible, where many would tell me I should be, maybe afraid to go right, and I found nothing but acceptance and tolerance for my worldview, which meant I had the opportunity to rehearse how to speak it and be clear about it, not hide it in the public sector here in my life. I'm a person who is in Milwaukee similar opportunities in my work now with Ripple, as we work with law enforcement in particular all over the nation, as we work with educators all over the nation and enterprise right an opportunity in all those spaces I'm getting to like help people use learning to develop their sense of human development and performance. There's a calling in that. But it's taught me to be super aware of the way God moves in the world.
Speaker 3:I am a fan of Richard Rohr and the contemplatives. I'll just say it, you know I'm not a Franciscan, but I'm a fan and and I appreciate very differently now this idea of God's presence in our communities, in in spaces and places where we might not normally find him and or feel we could find him. I'll say and and the invitation to speak my faith with people who are wildly different has been a real gift and I'm grateful for it, grateful for it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, that's that's so good. You bring up a learning theory, you've said. You've said curiosity. What does learning theory have to teach us as we try to engage in a post-Christian day and age today? Because you threw out words like tolerance and honestly, I don't know that the LCMS in general, the culture of the LCMS, from her leaders, just to our congregation members in general, when I hear tolerance, I think many of them will say well, that means you've sold out on biblical truth, you're compromising the doctrine, isn't it hilarious.
Speaker 3:This is the narrow way in which we think yeah.
Speaker 3:Go ahead oh, my word yeah. And to tolerate we all tolerate all sorts of things every day that it doesn't mean we're out there putting a yard sign in and broadly celebrating. I think learning theory has a lot to teach us. I mean, when we think about how we get from where we are to where we aim to be, there's three big stepping stones. There's things I need to know factual, procedural, conceptual knowledge just to understand my gap from where I am to where I want to be. There's organizational constraints, systems, structures, cultures, climates that should be shaped in certain ways to help me get from where I am to where I want to be. But the biggest piece is what's motivating me. What's motivating me and I think, when we think about motivation as a part of how we learn.
Speaker 3:For me, this sojourn into non-professional church workspace, my motivation has been born out of frankly deep, intrinsic interest. I'm super curious and I think we have to maintain a certain curiosity. I'm super curious Because the fact is, most of the world is out there doing that. They're not in here doing this. What's going on? What is really going on?
Speaker 3:And I've spent most of my almost 50 years on this planet on the inside of the church talking about why people are doing what they're doing out there, right, and it's fascinating. So I'm deeply, intrinsically interested to understand it, not because I'm going to suddenly capitulate to it, but because I'm curious, curious about it. It also, you know, there's a certain value, motivation that drives us when we learn values, meaning, is this extra effort worth it? Is it worth the extra time, treasure, focus, hardship, and there has to be a certain level of that, and I think for me there too, it's so much easier to stay in here throwing stones out there than to go out there and truly put in the hard work where gosh, darn it, tim I'm. You know it's actually a hardship to have my resume with so much time spent in the church. It's not a plus.
Speaker 3:Let me be very clear, doesn't put me at the top of many search lists, right?
Speaker 3:So I have to say it's worth the extra effort. I believe that there's a value there of something unique to learn, and I think also just the last piece would be this when we learn, there's all kinds of other motivational structures, but the other big one is the sense of efficacy that, like I can, I can learn this and understand this. When we frame like our experience, I think, as lifelong Christians and as professional church workers, through a lens of how can I learn about the other, doesn't mean I'm going to. In fact, it means quite the opposite, that I'm going to hand over all my beliefs to them. My heavens, what a fragile way to walk through the world that if I'm tolerant of my neighbor, I'm suddenly going to lose my sense of value and identity. Holy smokes, there's something else going on there, but this idea of being very curious about my neighbor, being very curious about my neighbor, and the reason I'm curious about my neighbor, is because I want more people in heaven and less people in hell.
Speaker 1:And so I'm going to be curious about you.
Speaker 3:And I'm going to invite you to be curious about me too, and in that we can learn from one another, and God will do what God will do. Yes, but those are the lessons I wouldn't have necessarily had if I just stayed where I was. And that's that's that's my story, right yeah.
Speaker 2:So good, jesus, as you're talking, jesus modeled this learning theory, posture of deep knowing. Obviously he's got, you know, he knows all things and therefore, out of that deep relationship with the Father, he could enter into you could say the power structures that be connected to organizational structures, in in Pharisee, you know, in Jewish culture of the time, and he could speak with clarity and confidence out of that deep relationship with the Father and those who were, who, those who were closest to him, obviously with his motivation being absolutely like Jesus tolerates, welcomes, loves, cares for broken. That's one of the I don't know when we enter into this and I can get a little frustrated because I think we're so myopic. So so black and white on this conversation. Jesus loves sinners, me being the worst. Jesus eight with you could say, partied with it, just did life with broken people, the outcast, the, the prostitute, etc. You know, and and the dude, dude, the slept with the prostitute. He's going after all of them. He cares deeply for people and that obviously does not mean Jesus compromises his principles, right, right.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 3:Well, in this side of heaven right, we're not, we're not, we're not going to be quite as adept at it as Christ Almighty, but here's the thing he always got there Right, in those interactions with those broken people. He always, he always gets there. But it's fascinating when you really deeply study. He gets there in different, he takes different tax with each account. We have, right, different tax, different approaches, as sort of the master teacher that he was, the master rabbi that he was, he took different tax and he always got them there and I think that's.
Speaker 3:But yes, it was a, it was a posture of love and a posture of welcome and a posture of belonging and seeing them beyond the immediate political issue or sin, which is really hard, right, we, I mean really hard, and we are up against cultural calamity. That is, frankly, just profound, you know profound. And I I know one of the questions you had on our list, where was it? We won't get. I won't read the whole question because we might get to that topic, but it was some words and you said how are we to appropriately understand these words when the world generally uses them in ways that could be interpreted as counter-descripture?
Speaker 2:Well, I'll bring it right now. So diversity, diversity, equity, inclusion, dei. Okay, let's just throw it out there. So how are we supposed to appropriately understand this?
Speaker 3:world generally uses most words of the church in ways that would be interpreted as counter-descripture. Right, and? And it's the fascinating strategy of the evil one, I think I mean you want to tear apart the church, go after the word love. That's what the evil one has done. Take the very word that God defines himself as and twist, twist, twist so that Christians, because we are flawed, sinful, controlling people, will gnash our teeth to protect what it really is and, in so doing, create this, oh, this met, this space we are in today, where the very words, the very words have been corrupted, and I just find that it's terrifying to be honest with you and to be out in the world more regularly and to hear how many people frame the church. It's very sobering and it leaves you with some grief. I will say this I am very careful in the world to quickly disabuse people of the notion that I am Christian, slash evangelical.
Speaker 3:I'm very clear to talk about who we are as Lutherans and why that's different and that's a separate topic for a separate day, but I think those are important distinctions to make as well.
Speaker 2:Man, the church can teeter. And this is such a great topic. Thank you for handling it with love and charity. I think we've got to become, as leaders, more adept at talking about the tools that Satan is leveraging, and he uses two really negative emotions.
Speaker 2:Pride, on the one hand We've got it all figured out If they, just if the world, you know, I can't believe you know. So we constantly, as preachers, must preach a message of humility. Christ, who came to humble himself, even to the point of death on a cross for his enemies, for those who not only hung him on the cross, but those who were pagan worshipers, etc. Jesus came. Do we actually believe this? Jesus came to die for the sins of the entire world. For God's sake, love the world right. So pride.
Speaker 2:And then, in the other hand, we in the church can be, and this is the other extreme. Pride says I can do it. Fear says, oh my gosh, everything's fallen apart. And he just. We teeter, totter between pride and fear, and they're very, very interconnected. And what's the opposite? The base emotion opposite of fear, the perfect love of God, the love of God which drives out fear. And if we live with love and humility, this leads us innately to curiosity rather than condemnation. Both within, it has to start within the church. Within the church, care and love for one another. And then out of that deep relational center it moves us out in love for our neighbor, who is not our enemy. Satan is our enemy and his days are numbered. Anything more to say about that dance between pride and fear.
Speaker 3:Well, and I love that you frame it that way, Tim, because what do fear and pride do for us? Pride puffs up, yes, but it also closes me in on myself. Fear literally closes me in on myself, and we know that the opposite posture is what we're called to do and to be in this world. I think, with respect to any of these topics, I think that there is an opportunity. Well, I'll say it this way the DEI topic and we're, you know we don't need to necessarily talk about it, but it's, I guess, for me is again as a.
Speaker 3:Lutheran Christian, the idea that systems and structures are profoundly and inherently imbalanced and sinful is not a shocker to me, never has been and never has been because of my grounding in Lutheran theology and my recognition of original sin and the way that permeates every single human created system or structure ever conceived, ever conceived, be it government, political, be it church politics, being the incorporation of systems and structures in schools, whatever it might be. These are not perfect and I always say you know, I worship at one altar and it's the altar of the Lord, god Almighty, it is not the altar of a particular philosophy or political view. I think as Christians, as Lutheran Christians, we do well when we elevate our thinking to yes, but how should I perceive these things? My father in his retirement has started at his little parish. They retired to his hometown way up Michigan, lifelong educator, master teacher, awarded master educator, looking for what he was supposed to do, and so he started something at their parish called form and forum, and form and forum now exceeds the capacity of the room and in form. He was an AP comparative politics teacher.
Speaker 3:He has a degree in international affairs from Washington University and St Louis and what they talk about are the toughest, trickiest climate. They talk about liberty, they talk about LGBTQ, they talk about any number of topics and the whole framing is we want to learn. They bring in guests. We want to learn everything we can about this issue and then we want to have a dialogue around how we should think about it differently not Republican, democrat, libertarian, etc. Etc. Etc. But as Lutheran Christians and when people start to get feisty and they do he's the master teacher in him stops them. That is not why we're here. We're here to build a mental model, a new mental model about how we frame these things. Because we are Lutheran Christians, how do we think about these things? And it has been a remarkable thing in their parish and I think we need more of that. I would submit around so many of these issues how do I see this differently? Because I am a Christian, not because I am. Insert the adjective or the label.
Speaker 2:Can you just just really briefly, can you say more about the, the Lutheran model for engaging that your dad is kind of broad, and how that's impacted you as you think theology, are we talking? Walking the tension between Satan's sinner, the now and not yet, the two kinds of righteousness. Can you give any kind of models that your dad or you may use to help us walk that little road?
Speaker 3:You should give him on and talk about it.
Speaker 2:He's awesome.
Speaker 3:He's 17 years old and you know I have not actually been able to attend Foreman Forum because they're like several hours away from me, but every week we talk about what it is he's preparing and the lesson, like he's got his curriculum for this year.
Speaker 3:They're just starting out and my perception of the framing is it's good catechesis, like people don't know that's what's happening, but you're dealing with a master Lutheran educator of 45 years, and it's this idea of helping us think about two kingdoms and what scripture promises us and how we are invited to be, and where we control confidence because of the security and promises we have, and how we understand God and his character right in scripture. You'd have to talk with him about it to get like his actual, like mythological conceptual framework.
Speaker 2:So good, this is so much fun. Let's do it.
Speaker 3:Your retirement. I mean anyway, just super fun, super fun.
Speaker 2:I love it. There's no retirement in the Bible and you had the model of that my dad to write. I mean just continuing to give and give and give in different, different contexts, using the gifts that he's received so good. You stand on the shoulders of man are pretty, pretty impressive. Man and family I know who have given you such confidence. You know you have some pretty unique gifts, obviously charisma. You're very articulate, you're you're well read, you're obviously a leader. There are some again, this is an LCMS podcast there are some in the LCMS that I don't know what to do with a Gretchen Jamison, you know, and I guess the I mean we even had a few few resolutions brought upon women's suffrage and at the convention, which was, which was fascinating, I was very pleased to see a number of wonderful female leaders moving into, you know, leadership roles within, within Board of Regents, etc. So what does it feel like to be a female leader in the Lutheran Church, missouri Synod.
Speaker 1:And.
Speaker 2:I'm asking just kind of generally whatever the Lord has kind of put on your heart, what does that feel like to be you in the LCMS system?
Speaker 3:Tim, that's a big question and I'll get to it. I think what I would first say is my thinking on this, as I've observed again now two and a half years, chin up, smile wide, boldly called into a new, onto a new track, that I think we have an opportunity in our church body, not just with women but with many different kinds of people who have been given the giftedness of leadership, to explore how we can create pathways for them to live more fully into that leadership, be that young people, be that individuals of color, be that women, be that lower income.
Speaker 3:Smp called pastors, whatever it might be that people who have been gifted with the talent and calling to be a leader would have more opportunity to live into those gifts more fulsomely. I think that's like really important. It's funny too. I have been told some would say well, I've been told publicly that I'm too liberal to be in the LCMS. But when you get out of the LCMS you're told you're too conservative to do anything else, and so it's kind of a fun catch 22.
Speaker 3:I can't tell you the number of women who suggested I'm completely brainwashed because I'm even remotely still affiliated with this denomination. Right, because for me the issue has never been ordination. So I start there because I just want to take that off the table. It's for whatever reason. For me that issue has not been one that I have felt consternation around, and I wish I could understand why when I talk to my more liberal female secular friends, I wish I could understand why I don't think I'm brainwashed, but it's just not this, you know. But what does it feel like? Well, I'm not a woman leader in the LCMS system anymore, so it feels pretty good. Two and a half years ago it felt pretty bad and very painfully so, tim, and in ways that I'm not really ready to talk about on a podcast, but a very deep sort of spiritual abuse.
Speaker 3:I would call it to be on the receiving end of not just the principles of the matter but the tone in which it is presented, and that's been very difficult. I am grateful, however, and I have to say this, and I say this very frequently my leadership has been shaped and formed, majority, by men, phenomenal men, pastors, most of them of God in our church body, men like Jerry Kieschnik, terry Dittmer, jerry Professor, jerry Fabia Concordia, or walls Brian Friedrich, patrick Ferry I mean I can go on and on. I have been the beneficiary of tremendous perspective by faithful men who recognize the giftedness of their sisters in Christ, and I think there is tremendous joy for many women serving in the church who have been sponsored. I would say I've been sponsored by those men and I appreciate that Because they've given me the courage I mean, it's funny, me and my first jump out.
Speaker 3:I was at a convention with my CEO. He owned 14 different companies, one of the largest of which was a manufacturing concern, and we were at Fabtech which who would ever picture Gretchen Jameson sitting at Fabtech? But there I was and we were there and we're having dinner in this really nice restaurant and he goes are you uncomfortable in here right now? And I look around the room and it's all men, all men. All manufacturing means all men, and we were meeting with some of the biggest execs of German manufacturing tech companies and it's all men. And I'm like you know, actually I give them all colors and I've been in this room before. I'm not uncomfortable at all, and so I feel like it's the ways the Lord prepared me for some of the spaces I'm leading now, because I was nurtured in a leadership space that was predominantly men.
Speaker 3:So I'm like well, that's kind of ironic, but I think the advice and wisdom I would have for I don't know girls like my daughter's age is to just continue to be thoughtful and reflective, continue to forge strong relationships and bonds with your male and female teachers and pastors. God will guide your path, your vocation, and whether that's within the LCM or outside of it. I mean, I'm still a Lutheran, I'm just not in the corporate synod space anymore.
Speaker 2:So well, that's such a good answer and I know I don't have to say I'm sorry because we've just started to meet one. But in so far as there have been, you know areas where we could have done better in coming alongside you and many other female leaders like yourself, I definitely am sorry about that and I want to be a part of a church that welcomes all voices, from all the different you could talk socioeconomic, racial and, obviously, men and women at the women and men at the table to help shape the future of the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. So thank you, thank you, thank you for staying connected to us.
Speaker 2:What is it about the word leadership? Because this is lead time, I am a part of the United Leadership Collective. Could you help me understand in your experience how leadership could be a synonymous with liberal in some way, shape or form? Because I just I struggle with that. Jesus is the head, he is the leader and obviously he started the greatest leadership, development, multiplying mission of all and we're the beneficiaries of it as a church. So how do we, how do you some in your experience, connect leadership to liberal?
Speaker 3:Yeah, that question. When I read it in the questions that you provided, I really gave me pause. I like to think, while I'm out of my run, you know. So I was thinking about it and I think it has to do more with how the individual feeling, making that assumption, making that linkage right, saying oh, leader, they're liberal. I think it probably has more to say about how they define leadership than than really anything else. Right, I think that?
Speaker 3:Sure, I guess, if, if I perceive Tim as leading and it is somehow counter to the way I'd like my sheep to go, I'm going to call him any number of things, right, I'm going to equate that with, I mean, are you just trying to break group? Think? You know what I mean? So I found that really fascinating because it's like, well, yeah, that doesn't surprise me If.
Speaker 3:If it's that you're inviting a leadership of thought and perspective and reflection away from status quo, I could see how people would perhaps equate that with little you know. Well, maybe they equate it with big L liberal, but with little L liberalism. I find that just really intriguing. Actually, you know, I find that really intriguing, I think, because to me, to your point I would agree scripture is pretty clear that leadership is completely a part of the Christian story, and all the way back through the Old Testament. When we look at oh, I don't know even Deborah as a judge, when we look at the idea of leadership through, through the story of God's word, it's, it's present and often completely bucks the status quo. Right, I mean completely bucks the status quo. So, yeah, I find that an interesting linkage that people would have as well. I'm not quite sure I understand why, aside from a feeling of being threatened, that's simple, threatened.
Speaker 2:maybe I think all of us have some level of I could be leading better. There's things I want to do that I should be doing, or maybe, yeah, I'm just insecure in some in some way shape or form. I think we all all battle that. So, yeah, I don't. I don't think leadership is a is a. I think we ought to highlight it, the gifts of all and that first, corinthians 12, romans 12, and the respective leadership roles in Ephesians four that the apostle Paul kind of kind of highlights. So I hope that good, deep Lutheran theology coupled with leadership, leadership development, the principles, the cultural standards, that kind of norm us as, as people of God who love and care for one another, can be, can coexist, it can coexist. So this has been so much fun. Yeah, go ahead. Add to that.
Speaker 3:No, I was going to say and I would juxtapose deepening our perspective of biblical leadership with a more healthy teaching around biblical followership. I would just say, because I think followership I've sat in the second chair for many, many years and there is an art and a style to followership that I think is something we miss, especially in American 21st century culture where everyone's a leader, everybody gets a blue ribbon, we're all right, we're all leaders. Yes, we all lead self, we're all leaders of self leadership. But situationally, being in the second chair, I've often said I want to write a book around second chair leadership because it's you have to have a different understanding of followership when you sit in that seat. You just do.
Speaker 1:And.
Speaker 2:I've sat in that seat for many, many many years. And, let's be honest, we're all in the second chair.
Speaker 1:There is a head, there is a God and we are not in the second chair, and are we following after the way?
Speaker 2:the works of Jesus save us, the words of Jesus obviously save us, but then the way of Jesus give us great wisdom. Sorry, is our discipleship fully, fully orbed around the works, words and way of Jesus? And because I think then we'll have the heart and mind of more of the heart and mind of Christ, the humility of Christ and the love of Christ for all people. So you're, I love talking holistic wellness. This is probably a topic for another, but I just want to dabble in terms of self care for the leader coming down the home stretch, how do you maintain holistic health as a leader heart, body, mind. And so I'll give us some practical words of wisdom Gretchen, yep.
Speaker 3:So a big part of my work right is constructing right now. Actually, what I've been doing at Ripple works is writing the methodology behind our human performance model. My colleague who founded the company was a colleague at USC and well-being is a significant piece of that right, the kind of intellectual, vocational, spiritual yes, it's in there physical right, emotional well-being, and I it puts it in your own crosshairs as a leader quite a bit, I think, for myself. What I've recognized is I'm going to drive how I'm wired, I'm going to drive myself banana grams if I'm trying to hit and I am a perfectionist people. Please are all eight of those dimensions of wellness equitably, all at the same time, every single day, right? That same wise dad I told you about.
Speaker 3:I, there's hills and valleys, whether it be in my, my running, my exercise, and so to have this sense and be very thoughtful and reflective about you know, which part of that well-being am I being, you know, called to cultivate more intentionally in particular seasons.
Speaker 3:For me that means intentional space, always, for we, you know, contemplation, not meditation, contemplation and reflective practice, contemplation around scripture and the things of God, and, you know, starting each day grounded in that space, but then making time, making time for reflective practice as a leader. Without it we cannot. We cannot function at at our optimal space and place as leaders. And so to have space for thinking in advance of spontaneous interaction, thinking ahead of time, what are my mental models about this issue or that issue, so that when I'm confronted as a leader at a moment I can't choose, I have already given thought to my own schema around some of these things and so that boy, you, just you have to carve time for that as a leader, and it's really really hard to do. But for me that's been a pretty consistent practice to help shape my own, my own vocational sense of well-being.
Speaker 2:Are you a? Are you a fan of sports? Do you know Alan Iverson Gretchen?
Speaker 3:I do. We're talking about practice man. We're talking about practice man, you know. So I've got some sport, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I mean, one of my favorite quotes funny is quote man. He's like we're talking about practice, not a game. We're talking about practice, man.
Speaker 1:And he's kind of downgrading.
Speaker 2:Have you seen that? Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, so he he's downgrading practice and we should say, as a church, we're yeah, we're talking about practice.
Speaker 2:Like we are we are training our soul care, our self care in the morning, heart, body, mind, spirit, rehearsing like you, look at your day rehearsing. Okay, how am I going to respond? How am I going to show up? Am I going to show up with hostility or anger and am I going to show up with curiosity and love and care for this person? And when they, when they attack, have I actually you talk rehearsing I love that word.
Speaker 2:Have I rehearsed to pause, to give the room to breathe, so that I can breathe and so that I can move to my prefrontal cortex and use that rather than my fight or flight responses or automatic responses? I don't think a lot. That is the goal of of morning meditation. I would make the argument that it needs to be on the morning, on the day that first morning, first hour of the day, care for the body, get things moving and then open up your mind, obviously to to the word of God and then to to rehearsing what's going to happen in your upcoming day or in that, in that season. More to add there, gretchen.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and when, when we have these interactions right, and I had. I was not at convention, I was in the city. I saw a lot of people who were at convention and had a lot of interesting interactions with hearing stories, you know hot hot exchanges, hot, interchange, hot. You know a passageway comment or conversation, and to many of those leaders I said so. So if you had a chance to think about that for yourself, like huh self, that was interesting.
Speaker 3:Why, why did I, why did I get so hot? Huh self, that was curious. Why did that push my button? And I think, for leaders, when we have emotions emotions are so quick, 30 to 90 seconds boom right Today have the ability to let it kind of come in and out and observe it. That's a fascinating feeling.
Speaker 3:I wonder why I feel that, but to come back to it later. To come back to it later and to really think why did that make me so angry, why did that make me so afraid? How might I have behaved differently if I could have? And I think often we go, go, go, go go. As leaders, we don't have a chance to really reflect huh, that's curious and to understand ourselves right, to understand this, this culture and climate, and to really be mindful. I think that mindful attentiveness is a leader, about our kind of, how we're calibrated, and I live with I live with a man who has that in spades. I mean his emotional intelligence. I've had 25 years to observe his calm demeanor.
Speaker 2:It's very different from much.
Speaker 3:But to to observe that and to be like wow, how do you not get? I'll spun up in that moment and to be curious about ourselves as leaders too, and that's a lifelong practice. That's a lifelong practice.
Speaker 2:Gretchen, that's a whole nother time I want to say so much, and we would rip on that for another hour, but this has been so fun.
Speaker 3:How can people connect with you if they?
Speaker 2:desire to.
Speaker 3:Absolutely. This has been awesome. Thanks for the opportunity and thank you for what you're doing with these conversations, I think you know creating space for people to you know, share and speak freely and to just generate ideas. I hope all those listening have picked up a kernel or two that leads them to thought. That would that would be a gift, I think, for this.
Speaker 2:So absolutely a gift. If people want to connect with you, how can they do so, gretchen?
Speaker 3:Oh my gosh. So I would say LinkedIn is actually the best way to do it right? So if you're on LinkedIn, you just find me at Gretchen M, like Marie Jamison, like the whiskey, and I'm there and would love to interact with anyone who would want to reach out so fun.
Speaker 2:This is lead time, thank you. Thank you, gretchen. Sharon is caring, please like, subscribe, comment wherever it is you take in this podcast and we promise to have provocative, insightful fun, hopefully joy-filled, jesus-centered conversations into the future. We'll see you next week on Lead Time. Thanks so much, Gretchen.
Speaker 1:Cheers. You've been listening to Lead Time, a podcast of the Unite Leadership Collector. The ULC's mission is to collaborate with the local church to discover, develop and deploy leaders through biblical Lutheran doctrine and innovative methods To partner with us in this gospel message. Subscribe to our channel, then go to theunitel leadershiporg to create your free login for exclusive material and resources and then to explore ways in which you can sponsor an episode. Thanks for listening and stay tuned for next week's episode.