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BONUS! Modern Israel: Theological Discussion with Rev. Dr. Mike Middendorf
What do the ancient scriptures reveal about Israel's role in the modern world? Grasp the complexity of this enigma as we sit down with Pastor Jeff Sutherland from Christ Greenfield and seasoned professor Reverend Dr. Mike Middendorf from Concordia University. We navigate through the maze of history, tracing Israel's captivity across different eras, and unraveling how the Abrahamic covenant ties back to the Torah.
We extend our discourse to the promises made to Abraham and his descendants, as outlined in Genesis 12 and 18. Drawing parallels to the Church's mission in today's world, we illuminate how Jesus is the fulfillment of what Israel could not accomplish. Navigating through the controversy surrounding Romans 9 and 11, we also delve into the intriguing concept of how Gentiles are grafted into the tree of Israel.
Let's plunge into symbolism and apocalyptic literature, interpreting Ezekiel and Revelation through Lutheran hermeneutical lens. We then veer into the realm of politics, examining the current U.S. foreign policy towards Israel and the broader political landscape of the Middle East. As we culminate our discussion, let's ponder on the need for repentance, the return to a right relationship with God, and the importance of consuming the right information in our chaotic world.
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Leigh Time is a podcast of the Unite Leadership Collective, hosted by Tim Allman and Jack Calliberg. The ULC envisions the future in which all congregations fully equip the priesthood of all believers through world-class leadership development at the local level. Leigh Time taps into biblical wisdom for practical solutions to today's burning issues. Each podcast confronts real-time struggles facing the local church in a post-Christian culture. Step into the action with the ULC at UniteLeadershiporg. This is Leigh Time.
Speaker 2:Welcome to Leigh Time Tim Allman here, jack Calliberg not able to join me today. This is we're recording this in the evening and, to give it some perspective, it's Tuesday, november 7th, and this was a requested Leigh Time episode probably also being shared widely in the Christ Greenfield family of ministries around the topic of Israel and there is a lot of confusion, especially eschatological confusion, around the role of Israel today. Who is the real Israel? And so I could certainly have this conversation. I could certainly have it with Pastor Jeff, but we wanted to bring in a resident at theological experts in Reverend, dr Mike Mittendorf, who has served as professor at Concordia University in Irvine for 21 years. He teaches Old Testament and New Testament undergrad classes, as well as an intro to ministry for gosh 25, 26, church Work students there at CUI so grateful. He teaches in the cross-cultural ministry program as well. Love that. And he is the author of the two volumes set published by Concordia Publishing House on the book of Romans. So, as we were just talking before hitting record today, a lot of this conversation is gonna hinge around Paul's understanding of Israel and the Jews as found in Romans nine through 11. So this is gonna be a lot of fun For those of you who are live with us right now I see six in the audience from Christ Greenfield that you found out about this recording somewhere.
Speaker 2:We're so grateful you are here and, as we're gonna have a Q and A time toward the end, as you've got questions, please just put them in the chat and we'll try to get to all of them in about 45 minutes or so. So Pastor Jeff Sutherland was preparing to take a team from Christ Greenfield over to the Holy Land at just a couple of days before the world changed, and it was October 7th, so one month from this recording. And, yeah, we're grateful you weren't there when everything happened. That would have been very, very scary. But give us your perspective on Israel in general, pastor Jeff, as we start to interact with Reverend Dr Mittendorf.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely Thanks, tim. Yeah, 30 days ago, approximately 30 days ago, a big call. I woke up in the morning and I received a call saying you need to watch the news Israel is declaring war or was attacked by Hamas. So then I had almost 50 people that were gonna go with me to Israel, along with the sister church. So together, another pastor and I from Wisconsin, we've been planning this for literally three years because we had to push it out before. So it was just a very emotional time and we had to make good decisions. So obviously we aired on the side of conservatism, but the decision was made for us and they declared war and it got really messy. So then we had to unpack everybody's airline tickets, everybody's land tickets, and it was just a difficult time.
Speaker 3:So when I look at and I'm looking forward to learning from Dr Mittendorf tonight but when I think about Israel, especially around the Abrahamic covenant that was given from God to Abraham, there was three things he promised. He promised a personal relationship, he promised descendants as far as the stars in the sky and he also promised the land. And when you look at the Israelites and their history, they have been completely overtaken and held captive by so many different people groups over the years. So their land is precious to them and it's tied in scripture, especially in the Torah. So I'm excited to learn from the doctor tonight about his take on it. But yeah, we were sad and I just pray that we can they have peace over there so we can go again. But I don't think that's gonna. That may not be very soon.
Speaker 2:We'll see. Thanks, brother, thanks for your faithful leadership. And before we get into kind of the Israel conversation specifically, dr Mittendorf is the well-known author shaping a lot of our theologians over the year at Christ Greenfield of this wonderful image of the bow tie. Dr Mittendorf, I actually rocked the bow tie on Reformation Sunday as I used your handle to tell the grand narrative. So how did you come up with your bow tie teaching on the narrative of scripture and tell the narrative in five minutes or so? What a joy to have you with us, brother. All right, thank you. Yeah, my pleasure.
Speaker 4:So I would say it probably started with Paul Robbie, who was a professor I had at Concordia Seminary, st Louis, and a long time ago. There's a commission on theology and church relations document on the end times and in rough sketch it's sort of there. But I've added a lot more details and I'm on my third revision of videos. So anybody wants to know what we're talking about. Just go to YouTube, put in Mike Mittendorf and it's the first thing to pop up. I love it. The whole Bible in 14 minutes.
Speaker 4:So the short is it starts broadening the left side with creation being very good, but after the fall the promise continues to narrow down through Abraham, through the family of David, to Christ at the center, but then from Christ's death and resurrection he sends the disciples out. So the right side spreads out from the Messiah and then the right edge returns creation restored, renewed, to what it was supposed to be, way at the left edge, genesis one to two and that kind of brings it all together. So in my classes the first assignment is always go on YouTube, find Mittendorf, watch the 14 minutes, critique it, and my favorite response was a student who said I like it because it's visual and I'm a visual learner. It's simple and I'm simple, and then it keeps Christ at the center and I said that's the highest praise you can have. So thank you.
Speaker 2:So so good. Very, very grateful for the Lord giving you that. So how does the biblical narrative, though, help us rightly understand the role of Israel in the Old Testament as well as in the new and the age of the church in which we find ourselves now?
Speaker 4:Right. So with Abraham Isaac, jacob named, changed the Israel, 12 sons, 12 tribes, I think predominantly throughout the Old Testament. They're the worshiping community of God's people. However, they're also, throughout the Old Testament, identified as a specific ethnic group political, military, right has an army, have kings eventually and stuff like that, but, it's important to notice, never exclusively ethnic. So we get Ruth the Moabite, king David's great grandma. We got Rahab, the Canaanite prostitute, we got Yeraiyad the Hittite, who are all brought in, and Matthew one, and that's interesting, when they leave Egypt in the Exodus it says a mixed multitude of others left with them.
Speaker 4:So the predominant definition is the people worshiping Yahweh, the God of the Old Testament. But at that time, yes, it is identified with a specific group that has an army and travels and has judges and eventually the book of judges and the kings and so on down the line. But to me that's predominantly to get us to Jesus, yeah, and so that is preserved until the New Testament, the rival of Jesus. But Saint Paul will say, not all descendants from Israel are Israel, romans 9-6. So there's throughout that time, a distinction between the faithful believers and the ethnic group, which are not exactly ever the same, for example, of the people who got out of Egypt in the Exodus, the military-age fighting man, only to make it to the promised land. So yeah, so I guess it is tied to that group, that again, never exclusively or simplistically racial.
Speaker 2:Well, and that that really goes back to the Genesis 12 and Genesis 18 promise right to Abraham descendants as numerous as scars and you will be a blessing to the nations. Talk about how the call for Israel in the Old Testament and I would say then for the church now is to bring the light of Yahweh and then now the light of Christ to the promised Messiah to to the nations. How did God in the Old Testament, though, work specifically through Israel? I mean, we you've got a lot of these laws of separation. It's a people set apart, and this is the call of the church, I think, in many respects today. It's a people who are set apart but also called to actively engage in love with those who are walking in darkness and lead in need of the light of Yahweh. So talk about that promise from Genesis 12 and then 18 for Abraham a little bit more deeply.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so in your seed or off spring, that gets you a specific family line. All people's will be blessed. And there you have kind of both the selective whatever you want to call it family line, family tree, and also then, once you get the David, and that David, off spring will reign forever. So there that is running, but you got these right. All people's honors will be blessed. I love teaching first Kings 8, when Solomon dedicates the temple and it's this place where God will be with us to bless us with his gifts. But when all the foreigners hear about this, they can come to and be part of this and receive the same gifts that Israel does. Isaiah talks about Israel being a light to the nation. So where there is a what Horace Hummel used to call a scandal of particularity, because there is a particular family line, that family line is in. Even the Old Testament glimpses of how that is to be a blessing to all the peoples of the earth.
Speaker 2:Amen. And then we see Jesus at the center and Jesus is Israel reduced to one. I remember that that clicked in so many classes for me. Jesus did what Israel could not do. Could you talk about Jesus at the center as Israel reduced to the Messiah?
Speaker 4:Sure, you get just great things. Matthew's gospel, strategically placed, first, starts with a family line we've talked about, but then you just get the extraordinary stuff. In Matthew 2 he comes out of Egypt I have called my son after the death of Herod the Great. In Matthew 3 he goes through the waters of his baptism. In Matthew 4 he goes out into the wilderness 40 days and you're like oh, out of Egypt through the waters into the wilderness. I've heard that story somewhere before. That's so cool. Israel's whole history is leading up to, fulfilled and repeated in the very life and ministry of Jesus, from birth all the way through the end.
Speaker 2:So who is the true Israel, now that the promised Israel reduced to one Messiah has come, how do we think about the role of the church today in considering Christ fulfilling what Israel could not do?
Speaker 4:Right. So I think we got to avoid what's called like replacement theory, that somehow the Jews are out and the Gentiles in. That is not what the New Testament teaches, often called supercessionists in theologian lingo, but rather that in and through Christ kind of, the ethnic cultic boundaries have been transcended. So there's neither Greek, slavic nor female or female in and through Christ. But that's more a continuation of Israel, not a replacement of them. So Matthew 21, the parable of the tenants, and there's the vineyard, and the vineyard is Israel. In the Old Testament repeatedly he doesn't trash the vineyard and get a new vineyard. He replaces the tenants, the religious leaders who are supposed to be caring for the people of God, with his apostles, his disciples, his pastor, shepherds, to take care of the vineyard which is his people. And in Romans 11, climatically, there's one olive tree and the roots are the Jewish patriarchs. He does not shop down the Jewish tree and replace it with a Gentile tree, but Gentiles get grafted into the tree of Israel, which remains the people of God throughout time.
Speaker 2:Dr Mindoor that is so spectacular. Say more about the controversy around Romans 9 and 11. You dug deep there and the wrestling that the Apostle Paul is walking through and really you see this wrestle both in Romans and then my 6 am kind of leadership study is walking through the book of Galatians right now. What does it mean now? What does the law now kind of mean for us, now that that crisis come and the Gentiles are getting grafted in? Because I mean one of the most profound and you'll know the chapter and verse, but I would be anathema, cut off, for my kindred, my family, to be recognizing that the Messiah has come. I mean he has this much. I would experience separation from the promises of God forever. If only they would come to believe in Jesus as the Messiah. Just say more about Romans 9 through 11 and maybe tie Galatians in just a little bit.
Speaker 4:Yeah, galatians, quit. If you belong to Christ you are Abraham's offspring and heirs of the promise. So that's just how that has been. Just the ethnic cultic limitations transcended. You can still continue kosher food laws. You can still continue Old Testament calendar of holy days. Romans 14-15 is all in on that. But the key now is belong into Christ.
Speaker 4:So in Romans 9 to 11, that's a long, continuous argument very rooted in the Old Testament. It talks about God 26 times but the amazing thing, 39% of the verses are Old Testament quotes and he kind of extends the meaning of some of those in and through Christ. So the not my people who will belong to become the sons of the living God. In Hosea, that's exiled Israel, but Paul reads that as Gentiles who were not my people, who are not brought in as sons of living God. So just how much it all sinners in Christ runs in and through Christ and then gets extended out to even Gentiles. So the big analogy here is Romans is the tree I talked about in chapter 11 and he kind of picks that apart and I think then when he'll say all Israel will be saved, it's easy just to hear that as, oh, all the Israelites living in the land will be saved. But he redefines that. The roots are the believing patriarchs in the tree and the branches that are thereby nature are believing Jews there always have been right.
Speaker 4:So the New Testament is all written by Jewish Christians, except for, probably, luke and Jesus, the early church Pentecost, predominantly Jewish. So too many people read Jewish as a religion when it's an ethnicity. Some Jews practice Judaism, some Jews don't. If you've been to Israel today, it's a secular Jewish state. Most of them don't practice anything religiously. They'd be secular Jews.
Speaker 4:And so, paul, it's all about faith and it always has been faith From Abraham believed God, or faith God, and was credited righteous Throughout the Old Testament. Those with faith are in the community. Those who reject, turned other gods, unbelief, are out. And Paul says that in the New Testament era, now that the Messiah Christ has come, those believing Jews in the Messiah, like Paul himself, are just in the tree where they always belonged. But those who reject Messiah or even, in the Old Testament, turned away from Yahweh, are out by their own rejection, not by God's plan or predetermination. And the astonishing thing is God could reach out to non-Jews Gentiles, every tribe, nation, tongue, and actually grasp them into his Israel. How and in through Christ. So that's the astonishing thing, and again, that's what I think when he says all Israel will be saved. It's the whole one tree, the faithful people of God rooted in the Israelite Jewish family but are extended beyond.
Speaker 2:So good Pastor Jeff, any response?
Speaker 3:I wish I would have taken a class from him. Wow, I'm just in awe. I love it. I don't know what to ask him right now. I'm just trying to process everything.
Speaker 2:Let's go, man. Let's talk about the primary views on Israel, dr Mintendorf, that trouble you and we would say, all confessional Lutherans within the wider evangelical Christian church. So I'm asking this question around the different views of Israel that you hear, that are very predominant today, especially from pre and our post-millennial brothers and sisters in Christ.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so they. They'll say Israel means Israel and always meant Israel. It's the nation of Israel, the land of Israel, and that has not changed. So when it says all Israel will be saved, then that means every Jewish person or every citizen of the political nation of Israel. And that just doesn't seem to square with Paul's definition of Israel, with his olive tree story or even again, the whole Old Testament, the ministry of Jesus. Some Jews, both Anna to the son of David, blessed is he who comes, others crucify and crucify him. So I think we need to get us just reading the Old Testament in and through Christ, and how the New Testament understands the people of God, not as a political nation, not as simplistically ethnic, but as the family of God in Christ. If you belong to Christ, you're Abraham's offspring and heirs of the promise, Not if you're Jewish, not if you're a political citizen in Israel, but if you're in Christ.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, absolutely. And we a lot of the eschatological expectations, the prophecies and I'm not going to name any names here, but a lot of them are reading like almost past Christ, looking almost for salvation based on the restoration of Israel and even the distortion of an understanding of Ezekiel 38 and Gog and Magog and kind of all of these forces kind of coming together in Israel's role. I mean that's where a lot of the man Jesus is coming back, because all of these signs are kind of taking place. So talk about how we can look prophetically at the Old Testament. And then some of these prophecies are just going right past Jesus maybe.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I mean, let's talk first about so. When Israel became a state in 1948, the big book was how let's see the late great pale on the earth. Prophecy is clear within a generation of 40 years the end will come. And I guess he was wrong when we had the war, the six day war in 1967, when all the Arab neighbors invaded Israel. This is it. The Russians were very involved with Egypt. This is it. We're all here. I just finished reading a book about the Yom Kippur war in 1973 and everybody was committed. This is it.
Speaker 3:And again, this is it.
Speaker 4:And it didn't happen in any of those times. Then I said our college students, they don't remember anymore, right, they don't remember 9-11 because they've most of them were in the lives then, right, so this isn't the first time there's been a war in the Middle East, of people attacking Israel or Israel attacking neighbors. That these guys reading the newspaper, like reading the apocalyptic literature in the Bible, are well here. It is right. So Gog and Magog are from Russia, china. Well, russia was much more involved in 67 and 73 than they are at all, at least so far.
Speaker 4:So in reading those texts Ezekiel is clearly apocalyptic and so you can't read apocalyptic literature in Revelation or Ezekiel like the New York Times, the chapter before 38-37 in the Valley of Dry Bones. But we're not talking about a valley of dry bones. Ezekiel sees that vision and then says these bones are the whole house of Israel. They say our bones will dry up and our hope is gone. We are kind of half because they're exiled to Babylon, but they're brought back to life and they're brought back from Babylon. So it's an image, a symbol, not to be read literally, about dry bones being assembled back to life. That's a symbol to say I'll bring you back to exile. And Ezekiel 37, in one level, is fulfilled when the Medo-Cursions let the Jews return back to Jerusalem, rebuild the temple, and so on. So the same thing after 38,. This is that literal narrative. It's apocalyptic, and so you need that. What is the symbol? What is the representation? And then how do we connect that to something in the story of Israel?
Speaker 2:Ah, yes, Talk just briefly about a wonderful Lutheran hermeneutical approach to reading the scripture. We're actually right now in a series called how to Read the Bible. The first week was Jesus at the center, that's when we was reformation, did the bowtie thing. And last week was the proper distinction of law and gospel. We're talking two kinds of righteousness the hidden and revealed God, some of these really helpful handles in our Lutheran tradition. So give just a general hermeneutic for the differences in understanding prophetic literature, ezekiel Revelation and understanding kind of the master narrative, the gospels in particular. Right, what are some helpful handles there, dr Mendorf?
Speaker 4:Yeah, I mean. My easy response is I take the Bible literally when it's meant to be taken literally, right. So if you read Revelation, there's this sheep looking as if I am looking as if I've been slain, with seven horns and seven eyes. Almost every night we'll say that's Jesus, but he had two eyes and no horns. So you can't read apocalyptic like you read the gospel of Nancy right or the book of Genesis. A narrative is narrative. Apocalyptic is symbolic. It's cyclical. Usually you need to figure out what the image or symbol is connecting to and react. Jesus is real and he was dead and he's alive and he's all seeing and all powerful. But John writes in visual, apocalyptic style to portray him in ways that exemplify that kind of in a symbol.
Speaker 2:No, that's wonderful, let's come down the homestretch here and if anybody has any questions in the chat I have not seen any yet, but now would be the time to do that. This is so much fun and we're going to close with even talking about CUI a little bit, I'll be that'd be good. So how should confessing Lutherans, dr Mittendorf, rightly stand with Israel? I am not the only pastor who has been approached by parishioners Sweet, sweethearted, lovely people. We got to make sure we pray for Israel.
Speaker 2:So my response generally has been where there's evil in the world and injustice in the world, we're sin. We pray for the Savior and His peace, his love, his healing, to rest with those who are being unjustly attacked by evil and terrorist activities. We have seen this just in spades here recently. So that's been my general response, but I know what's behind that. I think it's this eschatological struggle and sometimes, if time allows, sundays are so crazy, dr Mittendorf, because people are coming and going and like. This is why we're having this conversation right now to help help folks. But how should confessing Lutherans rightly stand with Israel?
Speaker 4:Yeah, on the one hand, Romans 11 and 28,. The Jews are beloved on account of the patriarchs. So in a sense they're that special people because they are the family line through whom Jesus came. Jesus says salvation is from the Jews. There shouldn't be any anti-Semitic Christians. On the other hand, on the account of the patriarch, salvation from the Jews, again, that race or ethnicity is in the automatic. In its faith. You stand by faith, you are out by unbelief. But at the same time Paul says in the next verse, often translated God's call to Israel is irrevocable. I think that's not best translation, as if you're saved by race, no, you're saved by grace. It's in the grace of God's, through the promises to Abraham, also filled in Jesus.
Speaker 2:So what's a better translation of that irrevocable Greek word there?
Speaker 4:Well, the Mininarist Concordia Commentary says without regret God does not regret the problem promised Abraham and Sarah and Isaac and Rebecca and Jacob because it led to the Christ. Right, he doesn't regret the promises to David, yes, so the promise is always rejectable and resistible. He will say, god, some heard and believed, some heard and didn't. And then at the end of chapter 10, he says well, my hands are still stretched out. So for now in time, his hands are stretched out to unbelieving Jews and unbelieving Gentiles, right? So, yes, so he does not regret how the kind of salvation came together. But, like the baby in the manger and the guy on the cross, it's always resistible, it's always rejectable, and grace is that way. So the Calvinist tradition of irresistible grace just is an oxymoron. So then we can separate the ethnic Jewish people from political citizens of Israel, but insofar as they're Jews, beloved on account of the patriarchs, hands still stretched out to them and recognizing they've always been Jewish Christians, they're still Jews for Jesus today, apple of his eye, ministry, jewish Christian is not an oxymoron, right? But that doesn't mean we're locked up in 100% with whatever the political prime minister of Israel decides, right. So I've been to Israel a number of times, met with Pastor Maitre Rahab, an Arab Christian of Christmas Lutheran Church in Bethlehem, right, who's trying to maintain Christian culture in a walled-in city because Israel walled it in to present terrorism. And his great kind of line is well, when did your family become a Christian? Acts chapter 2. They're Arabs there, pentecost Day. His family's been Christian 2,000 years, right?
Speaker 4:So does Israel as a political, earthly government sometimes overstep, oppress the Palestinians? Yes, so we're not 100% locked in with whatever Israel decides. They're God's people, so we have to support it economically, politically, militarily I think we need just the left-hand kingdom issue and we need to I think, validly support Israel as a democracy in the Middle East and not let them be run over by their Arab neighbors as happened in 6773, not let them be decimated by terrorism. And then that's a tricky situation. How do you stop? I'm going to ask you. I have to go in the Gaza and finally say that's a myth. Clearly, some of us started this a month ago, but yeah, I think we just. Why is it so important, for the innocent as well? And what's the best way to bring earthly peace so that People's lives are preserved, hostages are returned, terrorism is stopped and we can have at least outward peace in a very volatile part of the world.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that is our prayer. You talk right in the left hand kingdom. Folks have heard me. If you're connected to Christ Greenfield, talk this way. But would you give just the one minute kind of distinction between the right and the left hand kingdom and how understanding the right hand kingdom leads us to set our hearts and our minds on things above, where Christ is, the seated above, reigning above, and he's called us in our baptismal reality to have this above view and therefore we can kind of, as Christians, keep our minds, dr Mittendorf, when people are overwhelmed with fear and anger.
Speaker 2:I think Christians have a huge role right now in bringing wisdom to conflicted situations. As you just kind of rightly distinguish there. You can't be angry or anxious to make the statement that you just make, because there's a lot of nuance, there's a lot of distinction in the right and the left hand kingdom that the Christian has to understand. So I think Luther's understanding of right and left hand kingdom is so, so powerful. It always has been and is still here for us today. So give like the one minute definition, the distinction right and left.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I think I distinct Luther and obviously a lot of gospel sacramental. But the idea of vocation, yes, that you have a vocation as a citizen, you have vocation as a father, father, brother, sister, classmate. And then our two kingdoms view, I think reflects Romans 13, what Jesus says about to Caesar, caesar to God, god's, so that we live primarily in the kingdom of grace. Blessed are the poor, and spirit there's is the kingdom of heaven and that's where our ultimate allegiance belongs, by faith and the grace of God in Christ and that we're trying to live out in ways that share that with everybody. But we're also living in the kingdom of this world.
Speaker 4:So for citizens of the United States, that's the left hand kingdom which sometimes has to use force, sometimes is involved politically, police, military. How does our government relate to the people of Israel? That's left hand kingdom stuff. And yeah, it's judgment calls sometimes. What was the lesser bang in a situation like this? Correct and then right institutions. Then, like recording, I got a foot in both right and that makes it tricky your congregation to is partly a left hand kingdom but in service always, hopefully, to the primary, primary mission of the church.
Speaker 3:Dr Mendoza, if you know what I find to be interesting, when you look at the makeup of Congress and other political leaders in our country, I find it interesting you don't find a lot of Lutherans. You find a lot of Episcopalians, catholics. It's interesting, and do you find that to be because of our heritage, of just trying to be effective within our personal vocations, like you just talked about in the left hand kingdom? Do you have any insight on that? Why do you think we're not as active politically with our voices?
Speaker 4:Now that's a good question. I mean we do have an active fashions that Christians can serve in the military, can hold political offices, can be judges, in fact should be right involved in the left hand kingdom affairs of the state. Why we're not is politically maybe visible or prominent as we ought to be. That's a good question to pose that I don't have an easy answer. There's they. Are you so heavenly minded? You're of no earthly good. Are you so earthly minded? You're of no heavenly good? And that's just trying to balance out left and right hand kingdom responsibilities that we have both.
Speaker 2:I think we've generally. I think we've generally shied away because in the pulpit, like I'm not going to tell people a candidate to vote for, I'm going to talk to biblical concern issues etc. But I think congregations and I'm not in love with this, pastor Jeff, but I think church bodies, where the right and left hand kingdom is not well defined, distinct, are probably naturally going to raise up more, more political leaders in their respective respective movements. That's just my general sense. That's not to say that we shouldn't be raising up wonderful, wonderful leaders in the political left hand realm, but that's, that's probably my, my rationale for it. Pastor Jeff, what are your thoughts, bud?
Speaker 3:No, I agree. I agree, I think that we need to hold the line on that, and it's just something I've noticed over the years. I sometimes want to speak a little bit more forcefully about these issues, but I know that once you cross that you're in dangerous territory. So I like, I like our position on it and so I would never really change it. I just think it's interesting. I just don't see a lot of activism coming from Lutheran people in our government. You know the the.
Speaker 3:The second thing I wanted to bring up which is kind of interesting is I think the U S foreign policy around Israel needs to become more realistic because, you know, decades ago I think it was much different than it is today. When you look at our allies that we thought we've had, for example, turkey, jordan, saudi Arabia things have changed in those countries and I and I think we need to take a reality check on. You know the kind of anti-Christian, you know thoughts that are going on in those countries around Israel and you know, if I'm Israel, I'm feeling pretty boxed in right now and I can kind of see why they can have some pretty tough initial responses to these, to these things. You know, because you look around and there's nowhere to go and then that's why they put you know, young kids, everybody goes to the military there and it's like you know, and it's there's really no question you will go through the military, unless you have some special exception. So I just think the Middle East is changing. Doctor, I don't know what your thoughts are on that.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I mean yeah, if you go back to 67, 73, it seemed like Israel would just be decimated. Well, in 1948, right, there's no way. And so somehow you're correct. Military training, their equipment, often ours, their air force, I mean how they still exist, is an amazing military feat, right, that's the question now will this spread beyond the Palestinians and and come us is somewhat in Lebanon that? Will Saudi Arabia get involved with Egypt, get involved with Jordan, get involved? I think we don't know. That's very plausible. That's what's happened before. Is Israel going above and beyond by just kind of decimating Gaza? It's tough and this is a. These are left hand King and just judgment call issues. And you know, again, I pray that the conflict doesn't extend beyond what it is, which is horrendous enough for now. But again, don't simply equate that with like a religious crusade or Israel's the people of God. We got to fight for them, no matter what. I think the New Testament doesn't understand the people of God, israel in that sense.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think it's also important to remember that all Hamas are Palestinians, but not all Palestinians are Hamas, right Totally.
Speaker 4:And when Israel became a state in 1948, 40% of the Palestinian Arabs were Christians. Nazareth is an Arab Christian city, bethlehem is an Arab Christian city, and that's pretty much been totally excluded from the peace process. Everybody assumes every Arab is a Muslim, every Jew practices Judaism, and neither of those are anywhere near the truth. So yeah, it's complicated, right, but yeah, jesus is the center of it all.
Speaker 3:Exactly.
Speaker 4:We're still in living in this world, and so you got to try to have earthly peace as best we can and keep the whole thing from exploding beyond what it is now and hopefully get to some sort of a maintainable peace there.
Speaker 2:Right. Yes, in this world you will have trouble. Take heart of overcome the world and, yeah, it's great to be feel, it's great to be the people of the story who understand where we're at on the timeline of human history, god's work in the world and just to pray for that day of resurrection, reality to descend and where evil, tears, death itself will be put to death forever and life and a right relationship with God self, others in the rest of creation will be what wins. Wins a day. I mean. Apart from that, dr Mittendorf, apart from being connected to that, to that story, the greatest story, greatest love story of all time, god pursuing us, wanting to get his kids back that's the simple definition of the kingdom of heaven is advancing right. God is on a mission, through Christ, to get all of his kids, kids back and and anytime there are wars and rumors of wars, earthly calamity and any nature, from the accident to the elderly who pass away, it's a call for repentance and a return to, by faith, a right relationship with God, and he will use this struggle to hopefully reorient us.
Speaker 2:We get sucked into so many faulty worldviews and anxious about things that are far beyond our control. I mean one of my primary things. I'd love to get your thought on this as we're coming down. The home stretch is the amount of information we take in in comparison to the things of the world and comparison to the things of Christ connected to the word, worried that it's exponentially greater in terms of the message of the world, the world rather than God's holy word and man.
Speaker 2:If we could flip that script because I think it's 10 to one, if that may be even generous, could we go 10 to one the other way? Sure, I wanna have the newspaper, look at it, but then I wanna, okay, say this that's yours, lord, and in so far as I can pray for and be aware of what's going on, for sure. But then I'm in the book, I'm in the Psalms, I'm understanding Paul's urgency for the churches, I'm living in kind of the book of Acts coming alive right now, in a secular, post-christian era. Right now, this is a great time to be the people of God and the people of the book. So any thoughts on how our members maybe just drawn, you know, toward the things of the world rather than the word of God.
Speaker 4:Yeah, this is a bit my generation, but people used to actually watch the evening news, right, our college students. They're way past that. The guy would say get out and say good evening and then spending in 29 minutes telling you why it's not. And I think the whole internet and all that has just made the barrage of scare tactic frighten, negativity just overwhelming and anxiety, depression on the rise because of all this just coming at us.
Speaker 4:So, yes, romans 13, there are secular authorities, including our own and in Israel, that are there to restrain evil. So when there's terrorism, god has established those authorities and this is their role, even if they have to use the sword. Right, romans 13. Yes, at the same time, you know that's not our main focus as the people of God here in this world, we pray for earthly peace, we support the earthly authorities as they're engaged in as best as they can discern, punishing evil, terrorism, commending those who are trying to do right, at least in an outward earthly sphere, but then realizing that our identity is in Christ. We belong to Christ, we're Abraham's offspring, we're in that family of faith, we're his children, now and forever in his kingdom. And yeah, that was nice, so you can just absorb yourself in the good news of the gospel more than in the bad news of everything else you're barraged with around you, and then that bad news isn't quite so unsettling, because you know where you're rooted, amen.
Speaker 2:Facts You're actually rooted in Israel. Right, you're rooted in Israel, that's it. That's it. So last question what makes you proud about what God is doing at Concordia University, irvine? It's an amazing institution.
Speaker 4:Thank you. Yeah, I've been blessed to be here For more than two decades, I think. Far from perfect, but I think we're doing a pretty good job of maintaining the essence of the Christian community and mission. But we're not like a Bible college or a school that forces a faith statement or forces worship on you, like so many schools around us. But we're open to anybody and everybody. We say who will engage in our mission and the enduring questions we focus on our curriculum? Right, we love that.
Speaker 4:Who do you say that I am? Well, Jesus asks that, but we want you to ask that of yourself too. Right, who are you as a person in relation to God? And yeah, so I think we've got the core committed mission. I think we've got a very lively worshiping, sick services a week, gathering around the word as the people of God, but then trying to get that out in the community and beyond. You mentioned the first work training class, so that's obviously a big need in our sit-in. You just look at the demographics so it's really inspiring 25 new church work students last year, 27 this year and just to be a part of training workers for your church, for churches in the Senate around the world, is just a segment of what we do, but a very important one.
Speaker 2:Hopefully, in the next four years or so, you'll have two of my daughters there, both considering teaching, becoming teachers in the LCMS. So that would be. My son would probably be there as well, but you don't have a football team, so I understand why he really wants to play football. But yeah, we need more church workers. Thank you for investing in them. Any final comments, dr Mittendorf, on our time today.
Speaker 4:I know I just love how Romans 11 ends with just. It's all doxology praised to God, all things are from him, to him and through him the God's the glory forever. Amen. So he can trudge through Romans nine to 11, and, if you understand it right, it just drives you to praise God for all his goodness to us.
Speaker 2:Yes, so so good, that's good.
Speaker 3:So I just wanna say I feel so blessed. Thank you for this evening, dr Mike. I just learned so much from you tonight. I wish I could have taken a class or two from you. So thank you, it was a blessing.
Speaker 4:You're very welcome, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this is lead time. Sharing. It's caring like subscribe comment. Wherever it is you take in conversations like this. We pray this was helpful for you, gives you clarity in your gospel witness to bring light to dark places. The days are short. Jesus is coming again very, very soon, so take heart, have courage. Jesus is Lord. It's a good day. Go and make it a great day. We'll see you next week on lead time. Thanks, dr Mendorf. Pastor Jeff.
Speaker 3:Thank you.
Speaker 1:You've been listening to lead time, a podcast of the Unite Leadership Collector. The ULC's mission is to collaborate with the local church to discover, develop and deploy leaders through biblical Lutheran doctrine and innovative methods to partner with us in this gospel message. Subscribe to our channel, then go to theunitel leadershiporg to create your free login for exclusive material and resources and then to explore ways in which you can sponsor an episode. Thanks for listening and stay tuned for next week's episode.