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Lead Time
Lead Time
Lutheran Rapper FLAME Kicks off Season 5!
Faith and music intersect in the most fascinating ways! Let us take you on a captivating journey with our guest, Grammy-nominated and Stellar award-winning hip-hop artist, Flame. He shares with us how rap has not only shaped his career but also helped him memorize scripture and excel academically. We explore the fascinating science behind this and how music can be used as a powerful tool for spiritual growth.
Along the way, Flame opens up about his transition from a charismatic and Calvinist upbringing to embracing the Lutheran perspective. We delve into his experience at Concordia Seminary and how it challenged his understanding of the Reformation, leading him to see Lutheranism as the true center of the solas. We also navigate the tricky waters of theological differences, discussing how Arminianism, Calvinism, and Lutheranism can be communicated effectively and with grace. We stress the importance of addressing humanity's fragility and imperfection, and how the gospel offers hope and purpose amidst this brokenness.
Finally, we share reflections from the recent LCMS convention and our aspirations for our local church in Tampa, Florida. We discuss the need for unity, accountability, and contextual hospitality within our denomination. We also touch on the influential role music and outreach events can play in community engagement. So, don't miss out on this insightful discussion as we explore the richness of faith, music, and community together.
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Leigh Time is a podcast of the Unite Leadership Collective, hosted by Tim Ollman and Jack Calliber. The ULC envisions the future in which all congregations fully equip the priesthood of all the believers through world-class leadership development at the local level. Leigh Time taps into biblical wisdom for practical solutions to today's burning issues. Each podcast confronts real-time struggles facing the local church and a post-Christian culture. Step into the action with the ULC at uniteleadershiporg. This is Leigh Time.
Speaker 2:Welcome to Leigh Time, tim Ollman, here with Jack Cowberg. I pray, wherever you're taking this in, that the joy of the Lord is your strength. As we lean into a conversation with the hit rapper Flame and the Lutheran rapper Flame, let me tell you a little bit about this brother and how we met. So Flame is a Grammy nominated and stellar award-winning hip hop artist, well-versed leader in the Christian hip hop scene, with a growing list of accolades, including a Grammy nomination, multiple billboard chart toppers and several Dove and stellar award nominations. St Louis has been home, though now he resides in Tampa. He's had a number of releases. His latest release includes four EPs. I just learned what's EP mean.
Speaker 3:Flame, you gotta tell me what does EP mean? It's just a short project, but what it actually stands for, I actually don't know.
Speaker 4:I think it's an extended play. It goes back from the days of the records. You gotta be old enough to know that Extended play. Thank you, Jack. So the recent one.
Speaker 2:The recent one was included Extra Nose. Extra Nose came out in 2020 and he has a brand new book called Extra Nose Discovering Grace Outside of Myself. So I gotta tell you, flame just met me for like 30 seconds at the LCMS convention and it was a very awkward interaction. And here's why it wasn't anything about you, flame, it's because we were just about getting ready to talk about. One of the deepest topics for me was pastoral formation and the Pastoral Formation Committee is coming up. You probably don't know this, but the Pastoral Formation. So I got my clicker in one hand and then I'm waiting in a line to talk to Flame. And a really quick interaction. Super Sweet said my son loves him, so many of our sons really love his music as well as us and then I just got back to my chair, flame, to click the button and get to the mic to speak about whatever it was around pastoral formation. So sorry, it was such a quick interaction and thank you, brother, for saying yes to joining us today. How you doing, man?
Speaker 3:Indeed, indeed, I remember. All is well, though. Glad to be here with you, gentlemen. It's gonna be fun, yeah.
Speaker 2:So before we get, into the book and deep theology. We're gonna be talking some deep theology today. It's gonna be super fun. I'd love to hear your story of how you developed a love for rap, who were your primary influences and when did you know? Wow, this could actually turn into something career man.
Speaker 3:Man, it's so funny. So even as a kid always been into hip hop culture, rap music, just growing up in the inner city. It's just the air you breathe, so it's just a natural reflex. But the funny thing is I was always sneaking around listening to music that my grandmother just she abhorred it.
Speaker 3:It was terrible, not that all rap music had that bad message, but I just was drawn to that style. And so one day she caught me listening to some crazy rap music and she was just like man, grandson, like why don't you, if you're always listening to this rap music, why don't you study your schoolwork, write songs about the content? Then when you go to school you can repeat back the content in your lyrics and you'll have to answer, see all the questions and pass all your tests and everything. So I like to say that's when Flane was born, was in that moment just as a kid. So kudos to Francis Jones.
Speaker 3:But, man, as I got older, probably early teen years, I was really into some of the classics, like they could, like slick rick, then it became Bone Thugs and Hormony, tupac, nas, biggie, those guys. So it was just a childhood love that really drew me to the commentary in the music. That was probably the most interesting thing. Yes, the music, the feeling, the fashion, but it was the ideas that I was able to sort of engage from these older guys.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what is it about music, and specifically RAPMAN, that opens up the brain? We do a lot of neurology, we talk about the brain and brain science and things on here from time to time. But how do you memorize that many lyrics? I think for a lot of people they're like man, you're just running through, running through, running through. It's crazy how the brain kind of clicks and you're able to like you're in the zone right. I mean, obviously you've written these songs. But like, talk about memorization and even how we can memorize the word and even use kind of the art of RAP to do so. Say a little bit more about brain science, man.
Speaker 3:Indeed, now, I love that connection. I think it definitely the brain loves patterns, it seems, and cadence. So I mean RAP music is perfect for that. I mean the format is pretty typical and consistent. So you're already used to maybe a three minute song, three and a half, you know, at the longest. So your brain it latches onto that and then once you get that cadence it just sticks and, like you said, if you can just put in the lyrics the type of things that are healthy to think about, Paul says think on these things, things that are lovely, that are pure, that are righteous, if you're loading up your songs with that kind of content and scripture, I mean it's just a great tool and an assistant to just regular Bible reading or, in the case of my grandmother, just learning anything that's healthy.
Speaker 4:And that's what exactly came about with the Psalms. Right, those were meant to be sung and you could imagine. I don't know what the melodies of the Psalms would be, but you could imagine that the first iterations these people would have known the melodies very well, that it would have you know, and that would have helped these sayings just stay in their mind. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:A lot of what you do. We got a lot of pastors flame that are listening and a lot of what you do is kind of consistent with the curse of being a pastor and being on a stage, on a platform. And so how do you maintain humility as a performer man? All eyes on you, what's he gonna say? A flip, another trick, sing another song, you know? Preach another sermon? That that wows me, so that I can come back again and be wild the next week. How do you maintain that humility, bro? Because that's definitely what I see in you.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, thank you man. Yeah, it's interesting. I think in one sense I credit, you know, just being around good godly men that have modeled that for me. So in many ways I'm just repeating back things I've seen. I also think there's something in my personality that God has sort of made me not as impressed with the glitz and the glam. It's a shallowness to it that's not really attractive. So I do draw on that. But then ultimately, you know, I would say I try to also be around regular people, like people that may not know me as flame, or if they do find out I'm an artist that doesn't quite mean anything, has no currency in their space, and I like being in those rooms because then I could just be me and learn people for who they are, to get to learn me for who I am. So I like that, that emotion, I like that feeling. So maybe something in that combination I think God uses to try to, you know, kind of keep my head low, yeah yeah, have you looked at the Enneagram at all?
Speaker 2:Have you ever looked at that? I haven't. Ok, so it kind of it's not that there's parts of it that I'm like it comes out of the Eastern kind of traditions, but it's good for self-awareness. And one of the Enneagram numbers is performer right, and, and I kind of have that, I've been a worship leader, you know, and preacher for many, many years now and was in the arts growing up and things like that. So the performer is always wondering does anybody really know the real me? The real me, you know there's the, there's a stage me, there's the hit play me. But then who are the people that know the real me? And I've got, I've got that people that just say, dude, you're not that big of a deal. And I think to keep anybody from from stumbling right, yeah, as a follower, we need people that just put us in that appropriate place, obviously under the cross of Jesus, and then level in a level playing field with our family, family and friends. Anything to add to that though.
Speaker 3:No, that's good. I think that's spot on, because we have those types of honest people around you. Hopefully they're honest enough to say positive things. You know if you did a good job serving, and then also you know conscious enough to, if they can sense that you're lost in your own self, they can help rear you out of that also. So now I think that's spot on and that's that's just how the body in in general so function. You know, not being weird or mean, but just just that healthy iron sharpening, iron type of exchange, and I love that. I love that.
Speaker 4:Yeah, being well known can be isolating sometimes. True, I'm not famous by any, any notion at all, but you're a big deal, Jack I did experience fame briefly.
Speaker 2:Oh, yes, you did. I know this story. I know this story. Yeah, go ahead, tell the story. Tell the story, jack.
Speaker 4:So one of the reasons I love your story is because there's a lot of things like there's a lot of harmony with your story and my story. I'm a musician and I spent 22 years in the US Army band as a drummer, Thank you and I got deployed to France for the anniversary of D-Day.
Speaker 4:It was the 50th anniversary of D-Day Big, big big deal and I was with the 101st Airborne Division and we landed there and we were treated like the Beatles. Every single where place we went, I had teenage girls ripping things off my uniform. I would get chased down. Everywhere we were, we were, we were signing autographs, and this went on for two weeks and after two weeks I had had enough. I was totally done with it.
Speaker 2:Oh man, jack, that's like that's one of those stories, that's like a. That's like a fish story.
Speaker 4:Bro, I've never heard about girls ripping anything before I'll just now, you know, I think it does.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it will. No, Marta, Marta does that all the time. She's like come on, Jack, that's his wife. Anyway, funny stuff.
Speaker 2:Let's talk the glory days. The glory days, let's. Let's talk Lutheran. You know, lutheran just the word today, flame. It's fascinating we at our church, because we've got a lot of people in our context that don't know exactly what Lutheranism is. Or Lutheran and Martin Luther, you know, they think Martin Luther King Jr. I know that was maybe early when you were young where your mind went. And then, if, if you hear of Lutheranism in the in the media today, the largest Lutheran church can be equated with a liberal kind of movement in the evangelical Lutheran Church of America. So what does Lutheranism really mean? Before you, you know, came to know the story of Martin Luther, reformation etc. And then deep Lutheran theology. When, when you were in the charismatic to the reform tradition, what was your perception of Lutherans?
Speaker 3:Yes, a few different stages. It's funny. So as a kid I didn't know Lutherans existed just in church life or just generic American Christian culture, never encountered Lutheran thought. I don't even know if I met a Lutheran person. And then as a teenager around 16, I do remember my youth pastor bringing up Martin Luther the German reformer, and the context of him bringing it up had to do with Martin Luther King Jr. He was just letting us know that that's where Martin Luther King's dad got the name from, and then they both had their name changed after Martin Luther. So that was interesting.
Speaker 3:I didn't find it to be relevant particularly, but I thought it was the least cool. It was kind of just one of those little things you know. And then later on, after I graduated high school, I was a bricklayer, so I was laying bricks, I was making good money and then eventually I found out that my foreman was probably a Lutheran because we started to do a lot of reconstruction on Lutheran churches and he made mention of it like in brief. So that was cool. But fast forward, when I was at Concordia Seminary I saw him again on campus. So it was all confirmed. So I've had like these little touch points.
Speaker 3:And then one I forgot to mention was it's so funny. So there was this guy at my local church as a teen and he gave me this book I think it was like the small catechism Now that I think about it. But he told me man, you should check this out, it's really helpful. I think you're a benefit from it. But I just put it on my bookshelf and I didn't visit it until years later after he had gone on to be with the Lord. So you know, after seeing that, it's almost like Lutheranism has kind of been chasing me throughout my journey. So that's been cool to connect those dots.
Speaker 2:No doubt. So talk about going to Concordia Seminary, my alma mater, and your initial interaction with Dr Bodie, who, Dr Bodie, is one of my favorite humans on planet Earth. Man he is, he is legit, so yeah, and then and then your interaction with what are this man is probably? Well, there's so many good professors it's hard to say a favorite right, but in the systematic department Dr Bierman is tops, and those two men and others kind of had an impact on your, your faith development. Talk about your Concordia Seminary experience.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it was interesting too because, you know, to add to the last part of the story, I do remember at some point asking about Lutheran thought and it was just kind of articulated to me that it was like the cousins of the Roman Catholics. That's what I remember here, and so it was already that sort of seed planted that this is something like Rome. So then fast forward. Once I was exposed to the seminary, a close friend of mine was just like man flame, a Baptist, a reform Baptist professor recommended Concordia Seminary to me. Maybe you should check the school out too. So I did that schedule the time to tour the campus, did that with Dr Bodie and, as you mentioned, I mean just a great guy. I mean we had good conversation. He wasn't very pushy in terms of trying to get me to convert to Lutheran thought, but I mean he did mention to me that the institution was a Lutheran institution, but I still didn't really know what that meant.
Speaker 3:So, having tested into the, the master's program, and getting inside of the skin of the Lutheran world, that's when really my mind was blown, because I was confronted with ideas that I had just never had to wrestle with.
Speaker 3:I mean, justification by faith alone was there, but by and large, I mean the word of God and sacraments and that sort of combination felt weird, it felt foreign, it was uncomfortable. I remember thinking I was, you know, joining a cult, like I was scared and I prayed to God like God, my mind, protect me. You know what I'm saying, let me be a student of good Marine while I'm on campus, but it was sort of it was sort of scary. And then even the people that you know, like pastors and seminary professors from my reform space, they had to, like, write letters of recommendation. Excuse me, I don't even think they quite. I mean, respectfully, I don't even think they quite understood Lutheran thought. I wonder if they did what they have recommended the school for me or even written those letters. So that's cool to think backwards and ponder. But by and large, I mean it was just a sweet time of curiosity and engagement.
Speaker 4:There's an interesting thing. I learned about the history of Concordia, St Louis that back in the day it used to be just referred to as the seminary. So if you were just a pastor in America and just somebody mentioned the seminary, the reputation was so stellar that everybody knew that that meant the Concordia Seminary in St Louis. That's powerful.
Speaker 2:I didn't know that, jack. Thanks for dropping all these things, man.
Speaker 4:This is legit, so that's probably why they probably had that same kind of. It still has that brand, probably amongst other theologians, even though they may not agree with Lutheranism right, I love that.
Speaker 3:And the seminary was in California too, so that says a lot along the way from St Louis Wow, wow.
Speaker 2:No, for sure, for sure. So shout out to Concordia Seminary in St Louis and how you know, this book was really impacted by a lot of your learning there. Now, I read it a couple of weeks ago. Was there a moment or was it kind of a cascading set of moments that you kind of said, oh my goodness, I think that this Lutheran, because it's just centered, all the solos, et cetera, this could be the thing. Can you tell that story, or stories? Yeah, yeah man.
Speaker 3:It was definitely. You know, secession of moments, man, I feel like it was a journey. I mean it was just the ebb and flow of emotion trying to track with everything, because in a Calvinistic or a reform space, people, will, you know, give a hat tip to Luther. Typically, the bondage of the will is your first exposure to Luther and the Reformation and then they sort of tuck them underneath the carpet, just kind of sweep them out the way and you think you have the gist of Luther and then it's sort of a position that John Calvin came in and saved Christianities and helped the Reformation to do what it was supposed to do. And so, being at the school, there was a lot of familiar touchpoints, things that I'd already worked through, coming from the charismatic space.
Speaker 3:So I did appreciate that in my Calvinistic journey, just this appreciation for the Word of God, scripture, being the final and ultimate authority. So those were tools and a tool belt that really helped me engage Luther in thought. So I remember being committed to if this is in the Bible, I have to submit to it Like I can't, because if the Bible is the final authority, then it doesn't matter what I feel, how spooky things may seem, if it's in the text, it's in the text. So that was really my anchor and, working through everything, man, I talked to a lot of pastors and lay leaders and I was really trying to get in people's heads and scholarly minds to see am I tripping, am I off? I think I'm seeing this and again, respectfully, I just don't think I got adequate answers.
Speaker 3:Most of it was just sort of like stay away from the Lutheran stuff, stay away. And that even made me more curious. It's like why is this? Why stay away? If it's in the text, why stay away? So it seemed like there were other things that persons were committed to preserving or protecting, as opposed to going where the Bible leads. So for me that was a red flag and I just I followed the connect with the dots, followed the breadcrumbs and I said I can't unsee this man. This stuff holds true to the text and it's showing up throughout church history. This isn't like some new novel idea that the Lutherans have some proprietary thing that just makes them cool or weird. It's like no, this stretches back all the way to those who nurtured their faith off of the closing of the canon. So here we are. I had to go with what was in the text.
Speaker 4:I've been studying with Luther House right now, so separate from Concordia, but really great group of people there. And what I love is the approach that says, rather than standing over Scripture and trying to be an interpreter, what if we stand underneath Scripture and let it interpret us? And to me that's what it is. When you do that, when you stand underneath Scripture and you let Scripture be the thing that's interpreting you, then to me what you end up with is Lutheranism. I mean, that's been my experience. Yeah.
Speaker 3:And honestly, you know, I'm finding out that most people that haven't committed themselves to a system by and large are open. But if you've committed yourself to a system and to the culture of that system, this is your life.
Speaker 3:It's in your backpack and you're just carrying it around, right, exactly, and then, the thing that I do want to trade lightly and respect is that some people have made this their source of income and stability, so it's just a tricky thing to uproot your entire life. How do you explain it to your spouse? Oh yeah, we're changing doctrine.
Speaker 4:Well, that's what you went through, kind of right. I mean, you built a career in a different thread, a different theological thread, and then you had to shift midstream. That must have been very difficult or interesting. I don't know how to explain it. How would you explain that process?
Speaker 3:Yeah, it was tricky. I mean, to your point, I had been in the reform space for 18 years and the connections, the network, the friendships, the bonds that were developed, the people that cared for me, just as a brother, as a friend, all those things are in the mix, and so there's this sense of loyalty there that I wanted to value. So it puts you in that sort of fork in a row, and this is not an easy thing to do. And then, financially, like you said, my income comes from this collection of Christians that have trusted me over the years and put me in front of their youth and their church and say, hey, you can rap, you can speak, you can teach, you can do Q&A sessions, and so I understood that world very well.
Speaker 3:But I've never committed to those peripheral things. Those things have always been peripheral to me. Not that I devalue them. I genuinely care for those people and those things, but I never sought to position them above the word of God, which, again, was my anchor while studying something that was new to me.
Speaker 3:So once that sort of collision of events took place, the bare basic thing was what does the text say? And, to your point, I had to stand underneath that and humble myself and say, god, I don't know what's about to happen, but I can't be a secret Lutheran. I wouldn't be able to sleep at night. And I think these things are good, I think they're helpful. I know so many influencers and pastors and regular people who, in the quiet of their own hearts, struggle with the things I struggle with. They may be pastors, pastors or just regular Joes and James, but I've been in those accountability groups. I've been in those spaces where I hear the angst and the doubt and the lack of assurance and I'm like man. This is helpful, this is practical. This is useful as well as true and rooted in scripture and church history. So I was like I just can't hide it.
Speaker 2:We're made for community and relationship flame. Isn't that true? I mean, the first time God says something's not good happens alone and we need folks. So as you're sharing your story and as I was reading the book, I'm just like man, like the change of relationship with all those people over almost two decades in your industry. And then to have some of them actually say you've left Orthodox Christianity as they've understood it, man, that's a heavy, heavy thing. So how do you handle criticism, both to your face and then as an artist? I mean, you put yourself out there and preachers they kind of put themselves out there. So how do you handle criticism in a healthy way?
Speaker 3:Ooh, that's a good question. I always say, too like to an artist, and maybe for a pastor too, but to an artist your songs and your impact eventually functions like the law, like people hold you up to that standard. They want you to give them that same feeling every time. They want you to give that that first high, if you will, and I always holding you to that and I get it for them. They've benefited from them and they want that same feeling Like every time you bite the sandwich. You want to taste the same every bite. So that's kind of like the expectation, so that can be a bit way and right.
Speaker 3:So that could be weighty, sometimes it could be, you know, annoying, sometimes it could be overwhelming, but by and large I do think the way I sort of weather it is trying to remain rooted to the fact that I want to say things that are helpful. I want to say them the best way I can, but my goal ultimately isn't to entertain you alone. My goal ultimately isn't to just, you know, sort of scratch your itch for well, put together words and sentences, punch lines, metaphors. I want that to be in place as a tool, but I don't want to be led by that. I would like to think I'm leading you all with some good information and some biblical truth. So, however that comes out, I'm just sort of trusting God in that and not being connected to the performative portion, as much though I value it.
Speaker 3:Obviously I'm in the entertainment world, but I don't let it lead in that way. So that way the people don't have that sort of supremacy over my thoughts or my creativity. They're there, but not in the ultimate way. So I try to some kind of way work those things out of my head, to guard my heart and to realize there is this gospel reality happening so I don't have to function under the burden of the law that the people put under me. But it's like I just want to give good news, you know, and the laws are part of that sometimes. But you know, by and large, let me just say the things and try to say on the best way I can, and I'll take a deep breath, or if I need to complain, I'll do that with people behind the scenes, I'll share my walls and then I'll keep it pushing.
Speaker 4:I see your book as an incredible resource that churches ought to consider as part of their toolkit, especially as they're thinking about outreach to new people who are trying to understand the theology of Lutheranism. You do this incredible job in your book, where you tell your own story. It's your own biography, but I would call it a theological biography. You're talking about your story and in it you're talking about your context, starting off in a more charismatic Pentecostal-ish type of background. Is that what you would call that in your original church home?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I would say yeah, charismatic, and yeah, it was like a blend between Baptist and Pentecostal.
Speaker 4:Right. And then you had what I would call they use this term a sort of an apocalypse moment, where you have been mentored by people and you become Calvinist, right, yes.
Speaker 4:And then another phase as you go to school and you become educated, another apocalypse moment where you've been moved from Calvinism into Lutheranism and in that whole process you talk about, like, the great benefits of what you got from moving from one step to the next and then ultimately landing in the Lutheran understanding of things. So what I like about it is, you know, it breaks the mold of what your typical you know church book would be. You know, if you're just, I think it honestly. I think it's a great thing that churches ought to consider giving as gifts to new people. Yeah, because I love, I love.
Speaker 2:I agree, Jack. I love the tone. I love the tone because we can become super, super legalistic with the gospel right, and the way that comes about is we're better than we're, you know, we figured it out. And it's like, nah, we've been figured out, we've been exposed by the law and the goodness and grace of God has come to us by faith alone. Extra notice outside of ourselves, not because of, not because of us.
Speaker 2:So how do you talk in a, how do you talk in a winsome way to help folks kind of understand the differences between Arminianism and Calvinism and how Lutheranism kind of sits right, right in the middle of that? Because, yeah, if we, if we head in like too hard man, we just lose. I see, Lutheranism is just arms wide open, like Christ, arms wide open. We want as many people as possible to experience the extra nose, passive righteousness that comes because of the finished work of Jesus sign, sealed and delivered through the waters of baptism. That's our heart's desire, you know, and we don't want to. We don't want to say things in a way that could lead our inner Baptist or or reformed brother or sister or, for goodness sake, you know, the pre Christian just waiting to hear the goodness and grace of Jesus. That's our ultimate heart, right. So how do you, how do you communicate that in a winsome way, fling?
Speaker 3:Man. You know, one of the things I think about is I'm always thinking about people and that they're not very complicated in one sense. I mean, obviously we can be multi-layered and complex beings, but there is a simplicity to most people where they aren't thinking deeply about things, they're not always processing what they believe on a day to day, they're not in a way that's in their face, as conscious of their own theology and how to connect those dots with everyday decisions. So I try to remember that about the people and I just I wanna speak to where I know we all live, which is being broken, being disintegrated within our own selves. We all have things we would like to improve about ourselves. We all would want to grow and overcome certain things. We all wanna be good friends by and large parents, spouses, students and that can bring a lot of guilt when you are faced with yourself and your own contradictions and hypocrisy and things hitting you from the outside and influences are all just sort of moving in on you and that could be weighty. So I think, for non-Christians and Christians alike, lutherans just have such helpful language in understanding the complexity of that, the simplicity of that, and not calling you to look within or to try to master yourself in some kind of therapeutic self-improvement thing. Not speak against therapy or self-improvement, but if those things are ultimate they kind of lead you back to the problem, which is man. There's something in me that I just can't quite fix.
Speaker 3:So the Lutheran language to me really serves the culture where we are Non-Christians, are super into finding the goddess or the God within or like. That kind of thought is back. It's popular, everybody loves that sort of spiritual thing, manifestations even in the space I'm from and even in a black community people are talking about manifestations and using sage to clean out spirits, and so people are trying to figure out this good versus evil thing and conquering and growing from within. But it's that loop that sends you back, looking within, and that can bring a sense of despair or pride and man. Lutheran thought has really nailed those engagements as a person and what that means with us before our creator. So it's just, I mean, this is the time now, I think, for Lutherans to just gently move into these conversations and say, hey, there's some helpful things I've been written and said about this I think you'll find helpful.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean 2KR flame, is it 2KR? You dropped 2KR in a lot of your songs and man.
Speaker 4:All over your songs, man, it's great stuff All over, all over it's so good, it's so good.
Speaker 2:So have you had any stories of folks that have been like especially since 2020, and your writing style changed? And have you had folks kind of say I didn't realize that there were these really solid handles law, gospel, two kinds of righteousness, all that to understand the scripture, and now it's a new gospel center, jesus lens, that we're really putting on? Have you had any of those kinds of stories that people have in these Bible discovery moments connected to your music?
Speaker 3:Oh, my goodness, oh my goodness, yes, yes and yes. I mean, and it's been so encouraging because on the front end, you put the project out, you don't know what's gonna happen, you don't know who's gonna hear it. Not to mention, we're all fighting the algorithm on social media so all your posts don't go to everybody that subscribes to your pages, so it's all these things, it's a mystery. And so now to hear back from I mean again from professors, seminary presidents, pastors, laypersons and some people, they'll seek me out like Nicodemus in the night, just like yo. This is good. I've never heard this, never been confronted by it. Those things are very encouraging. I mean, in many cases I know I'm thinking of at least three pastors now that were reform pastors, but in sort of the best way you can, they took a similar journey. They were up front and honest with their congregation and the people at the top. Like this is what I've been.
Speaker 3:I've been thinking and considering this lately. I've been praying through these things, I'm learning more about the Reformation and Lutheran thought and I know some guys who've walked that down over time and are now training at Lutheran seminaries to move into the pastorate in the confessional Lutheran space, and I think that's encouraging. I think by God's Spirit he's giving people courage and people are seeing that this shouldn't be a threat. If we can get over the hump of oh my God, this feels Roman Catholic and we can sort of see it in scripture, I think the church will actually see it as a benefit. So I understand we need a portion of time where it's gonna feel a bit turbulent.
Speaker 3:So just knowing that prepares you to weather it, because it's like, okay, this idea is confronting and it feels violent on the front end, but as you work through it and see how it fits into your everyday, practical, mundane lives, it becomes useful. Then it becomes necessary and you need those truths and all those distinctions the law of gospel, two kinds of righteousness the list goes on. I mean those things become dire in a counseling room for people who are experiencing crises and trying to figure things out. Or just man. Should I be a Christian rapper, a Christian doctor, a Christian janitor? Or can I just serve in my vocation and do good there, trusting that God is smiling on that activity too? People need this conversation and it's so helpful, so helpful.
Speaker 2:Yeah, man, you got a counseling minor. You've been interested in psychology for a long period of time. Talk about that journey and how your theology interacts with psychology for you.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's personal for me, man. So I grew up again in the inner city, but the thing about that that makes it unique was my mom was classified schizophrenic and depressed as long as I could remember. So I've always grown up in and out of the psych wards visiting her, her and my dad having to care after her, and so I've always lived in that space where mental illness was, in my face, present. So I've been trying to understand it for years and then it has implications for me as the son of a mom who has schizophrenic. That's an interesting dynamic that I had to figure out. So just on a personal level.
Speaker 3:And then I started meeting other people who I saw these practical challenges and I'm like man Lord, it would be cool to be able to take these weighty truths and just connect them with the practical understanding of how to live as a broken creature and maybe blend them together and find ways to talk about it. So I found that to be really helpful, and especially now again, talking about therapy, where people are open to that and it has the cool factor. Now I think that can be useful. But for the most part, again, I think Lutheran thought is necessary, even in a counseling room, because what you get a lot of times is a lot of law in a counseling room where it's like, ok, here's your homework assignment, here are the things you need to do to improve. Try these things and for a person that's already struggling and kind of broken, it's like that could just be the worst thing ever. You know.
Speaker 4:Yeah, that's for sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Go ahead Jack.
Speaker 4:A background. One of my military backgrounds also was I was a master resiliency trainer, and so this was all based on. What are the cognitive tools that a person can learn to be more effective when they're like going through really, really, really stressful times in their life? And it's all great stuff, it's all very practical stuff, but as I was going through that training, like the thing that kept calling to me in the back of my mind is like how much greater would this be if this was tied to faith, like what makes you more resilient than trusting in the Lord and knowing that God is providing for you and that he's promising you eternal life? And so one of the things that I'm hoping someday is maybe a little bit of a passion project is to kind of take these two things and to put them together, that there's practical tools to make you a more resilient person, but let's add the gospel to that. Then see how resilient it makes a person. So, yeah, I appreciate your emphasis on mental health, amen man, and that is our witness.
Speaker 2:People are just crushed under the law. You talk about the two different extremes in your book of kind of self-righteousness or pride, and then the other end of the extreme is self-loathing and despair, and all of that comes down to our identity. Do you know? This is the beautiful thing, man, about pastoral counseling when someone comes in, if they're thinking they're a big deal, that's when the law comes in, but that's not the majority of the time. People come in, man, they come in and say my marriage is falling apart, I'm suffering with an addiction. We do a ministry here called La Mesa, and it's a meal and worship inclusive of, but not exclusively for, the working poor and homeless, both in Mesa and in Tempe. And on Tuesday and Thursday nights, man, there's just brokenness in your face and so when we preach there and a number of our vickers, our student pastors, they get a preach there and, man, it just is a beautiful thing to say our sin is right before us.
Speaker 2:A lot of people in a fluent community they wear their brokenness on the inside. In a lower income community, working poor, high addiction, mental illness, it's very evident on the outside. Jesus came for you, jesus runs for you, jesus died for you, jesus got a plan of purpose for your life. You are His, you've been baptized in His name. Man, this is an amazing story. And you just see people I mean weep at the goodness of God. After all I've done, he still knows me, sees me, wants to draw me near. I love the metaphor. He still runs after me like the prodigal God, right that pursues a prodigal son. He's coming after me. He's throwing a party for me. That's how much he loves me. That's next level flame.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, thank you for leaning into just communicating the gospel in a winsome way. What the law does is it crushes our self-righteousness and what the gospel does is builds us up a new in Christ. The powerful mystery I'd love to hear you go off on this man, just a powerful mystery that Christ, the God of the universe, by the power of the Spirit in the waters of baptism, calls us his own and makes us his dwelling place. It makes us his hands and feet, makes us his winsome witness in the world. I mean, it's just nuts. Anything to add toward that desire. How the broken are then given a brand new identity. Flame, anything to add to that? Yeah, man.
Speaker 3:And that's that's that really hit me, because coming up in the reform Baptist world, particularly baptism was just an outward sign of it and would change, or inward expression, or it was communicated as your first act of obedience. So I mean we're talking about the law right now. We've taken the gospel thing, good news that Jesus has for us, a thing that he's done for us and we, and keeping with just the generic American church, we flipped it upside down and we made the works of God works of man and it's a burden that was added. And I remember coming up, just seeing so many people think about the baptism that way. So that means, in terms of identity, if you look at yourself and you don't see the kind of fire and passion that you saw when you believed at that conference, or you had some super spiritual highs and you felt like I'm living for Jesus, I'm going hard, no more sin, no more, I'm just living for God. And as that starts to wane, you think about your baptism and you say, man, I must have shaken off my faith, I must have broken God's heart to the point where I need to get saved again. And I've just seen many people get baptized multiple times, trying to get back in right position with God trying to hit reset. If you're old enough, you remember the Nintendo button where you had to hit reset sometime because it just it wouldn't act right. But that's what baptism became for so many people just that reset button and showing the world. All right, I'm ready this time. And so it was hard for me to think differently about baptism. But once I was able to just sort of slow down and walk through the scriptures and see God so understands the human journey. I try on God does.
Speaker 3:And then even the second person in a trinity, christ, right, the God man who takes on human flesh. He's a high priest who can really sympathize with everything that we experience. I mean, he was tempted in every way, on every hand, but he never sinned so to have that sort of personal touch from a God who gets it. I remember there was a popular rap song back in the day from an old school rapper named Jaru, and he had a song and it was called If God Was One of Us, and the whole song was just this story about how God can't relate to humanity, all the things that we deal with, the brokenness, the betrayal, societal and structural ills.
Speaker 3:You know friends turning up back on you, lack of finances and support, god never could. He could never undergo what we go through as people and I remember man just thinking about that. And when you think that we do have a high priest who can sympathize, and in fact he so understands the human journey, that in baptism he says I'm going to deliver to you the perfection Jesus won on a cross and your baptism will function for you as assurance that will give you a good conscious that, as you are filling the angst of what it means to be a broken person, you can remember and cling to what he delivered to you in that baptism. It just flips the concept rightly in positions you in Christ, based upon his gifts, and my goodness, that's just. I can't think of anything more practical than that.
Speaker 4:And his promise for you in baptism is true and he doesn't lie.
Speaker 3:It's not a lie, it's a true statement.
Speaker 4:Whether you're an adult or whether you're an infant, the statement is always true. You were saved. Yes, amen, yes, yes. So what was?
Speaker 2:it. What was it like? Flame? Because Lutherans, and especially our worship practices, like, are very, very different right From what you took in. I mean a lot of singing maybe then, and then like a 30 to 45 minute message Like what's it been like with Lutheran liturgy? Talk about that a bit, yeah it's so okay.
Speaker 3:So I sort of had the cheat code because I came through the reform doors.
Speaker 2:Sure, sure Cheat code.
Speaker 3:With Konami code. So yeah, like and particularly that you know, in terms of church history, calvin and then Calvinism really didn't have a space for the arts and they sort of saw those things as potential idols. So even in the Calvinistic culture it was a journey to convince the elders and the elderly that this Christian rap thing was useful and that it was permissible. So most churches that I would visit and then commit to had a certain style of singing and liturgy that had at that point it was uncomfortable coming out of the charismatic space where it's just a lot of, I mean, exaggerated emotion of you emote a lot of energy and expression, dancing you might take a lap around a building because something that was said in a sermon was so good, like those things are all permissible. You know what I mean.
Speaker 3:So, moving into the Calvinistic space, I was sort of detoxed from that. So then once I was exposed to Lutheran liturgy, by that point I didn't even have an appetite for the thing I came up understanding as church life as a kid. But the church I'm at now we do have more of like. We have both. We have a contemporary style liturgy and then we have one that's more traditional, which I actually enjoy both.
Speaker 4:I think both have their place, both are helpful and maybe even a blend of the two can be good too, but yeah, and I think that's a misconception we have sometimes about liturgy is that it always means organ or it's a broader meaning than that. It's about what you're teaching and not necessarily about always the style of what's going on.
Speaker 3:Yep, absolutely Absolutely. But I do remember the first time I picked up a hymnal. It was so funny. I was trying to follow along One. I had to find a page. Then, once I found a page, I had to understand the flow of the books. I'm reading the lyrics, singing along, trying to keep up, and then the lyrics skip down the page. I'm like what just happened? So I'm reading the wrong words, I'm singing the wrong words, I'm looking around to see if anybody sees me. Then I just thought, humming and faking it like mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, just kind of smile I like it stuck.
Speaker 3:It was like mayhem, but over time I just got used to that and yes, but it was funny.
Speaker 2:Oh, man, this has been so good. Just a couple more. A couple more questions, man. What was it like at the LCMS convention? I bet my experience was a little bit different than yours Because of some of the things I've said on this. I'm not like universally loved within our church, and that's okay. My identity's in Jesus, If people really know my heart, I really just want our church to be as evangelical in the best sense of the word and confessional Lutheran as possible. And then just look at some of our practices. So I'm praying for unity in the midst of our diverse context today and you get kind of a microcosm of our church at the LCMS convention and I was just, I was overjoyed, man, that they put you on the platform, let you share your story and even wrap a little bit. So what was that experience like?
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, indeed. I mean, when I was honored to be there definitely felt like it was a privilege and to just seeing the level of accountability like you know, all denominations aren't made equal and I think that's a courageous thing to do is to get that many people in a room and sort of like open field and people are taking shots and shots are being fired back. But I think the end goal was to try to work through difficult things. That was, to not hide or run from that scary responsibility to me stood out and I thought that was something to admire and maybe even something to model. I think other people can learn from that.
Speaker 3:It didn't seem like it was always fun, like I was following online and you see the different things that people were discussing and voting for, but by and large, I saw something golly about it.
Speaker 3:I was just like man, this isn't easy, but this is the long suffering stuff, this is the suffering, and all of that was in a room and in a mix and it's not always fun.
Speaker 3:But just for me it was cool to kind of come in and be a time to breathe, a time to laugh and just sort of hit that reset, if you will.
Speaker 3:So that was my goal was to come in, hopefully, and say things that encouraged all of us to say I'm a byproduct of you, gentlemen, and even the ladies in the room just fighting for these things. I mean they made their way to me because I'm sure there were decisions and votes that were made at some point that allowed the institution to be there for a guy to randomly stumble on campus and to hear good confessional thought. That rescued me at a point where I was probably thinking about leaving the faith just sort of exhausted, with that never ending upward climb on the ladder that I experienced, respectfully, in a reform space. So I saw all of that in a room like man. Lord, give them the courage and the patience to keep weathering this, saying hard things, hearing hard things, figuring out how to work through it, because on the ground it's just regular people who need to hear the good news of Jesus and if this is part of that journey, help us to weather it and maintain strength through it for the good of the people.
Speaker 2:And in the LCMS man that's so encouraging. In the LCMS we've got the goods man, you know, or the goods or the goods got us however, you want to say that's what, that's what.
Speaker 1:You know so so can we?
Speaker 2:can we love and care for one another? And the cool thing about the convention well, I got some concerns about pastoral shortage and and how we train and while not changing what we train toward the truths of of that we've been talking about today truths in God's Word and Lutheran Confessions we're not, we're not talking about, we're not battling over those types of things, or even like the major cultural issues today man and maybe, maybe how we engage in the LGBTQ plus the conversation but but no one is saying that that God didn't create a man and a woman and that marriage isn't a beautiful thing and that that life matters and all of those kind of hot button issues were. We're very much aligned and I'm just praying that as we communicate that alignment, we have contextual hospitality. So what are your? Because the land in the lead lodes you're, you're pastor man. What a, what a cool dude.
Speaker 2:I, I really enjoyed him and he and I were classmates at the seminary 15 years ago. So what are your hopes as you look at your church, in particular in Tampa, florida, going on mission, and what is the story that you hope is told that could ripple from because we kind of think this from Jerusalem, judea. From Phoenix outward, from Tampa outward, what? What gives you a lot of passion about what the Lord's doing in your local church, especially as it relates to communicating the gospel with those who don't know about Jesus?
Speaker 3:Yeah, man, I think one. I like being in the mix because it does help with the imagination. So, just, you know, by way of presence, people can sort of imagine a black, inner city male and what they might feel like to worship alongside of someone like myself and people from other cultures and vice versa. I'm learning that as I engage my brothers and sisters in my local church. So I like that close proximity softens our hearts and helps us see the humanity of one another. And then we think about how do we communicate good things to people where we know maybe a certain vantage point may feel it may be a tender spot. So we figure, okay, well, let me go around and maybe take this approach. So I like that, that that's happening. I like that.
Speaker 3:You know, even here we've already done an outreach concert just to signal to the community hey, we're here, we love Jesus and we like rap music too. So come get some food, get some snacks, come sit down and enjoy a concert and I've seen that you know already displayed being here. So that's super cool to see other things like I'm. You know I have a podcast and sort of I don't know what you want to call it organization that I've been working on building extra no secademy and we're doing our first conference. But again, my church is hosting it.
Speaker 3:They're like let's have it here and that's just going to bring a different demographic of people. They're going to show up. They may not even know much about Lutheran thought, but they'll be in the building, they'll be able to meet my pastors and they'll be able to see who's there and what that's like and how y'all are getting getting along together. And even when y'all don't get along, how are you still? Oh, because because of Jesus and the law, supper binds us together, even, you know, reminding us that we're still family. So I like all those things happening and also things in the room. So, yeah, just more stuff like that man putting ourselves in those positions to feel what the other person feels and to how do we say the good things to one another, knowing those sensitive spots.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 4:This has been so much fun. I've become all things to all people. It's not a statement saying I'm going to compromise my theology on behalf of others. He's saying I'm going to go out of my way to show radical hospitality to people and let them know that they belong in the church. Yeah, Right so that they can hear the gospel.
Speaker 2:Amen, amen, that is that is it that it comes from outside of us. I love that a lot of your. Your writing your rap, what your music was included in the book and I'm on page 109. I'm sure you haven't memorized the pages, but would you, would you just share, like because at the at the convention you wrapped a little bit, would you mind? That's from your interlude to good works and, man, I love how Luther emphasized. Do you remember any of that, can you, can you?
Speaker 3:drop that for us as we close. Man, Let me see you know what that that part actually is in a rap, so I may be off the hook. It isn't a rap?
Speaker 2:No, it's not, you just say this.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So we're talking those things out, but uh, Let me just let me just quote a little bit, and then maybe you could drop something else out, man.
Speaker 3:I love that.
Speaker 2:Luther emphasized that God doesn't need our good works, but our neighbor does. I mean, that's so weighty when you think about it, because all our good deeds are sanctification. Our skill sets and responsibilities and various roles are for the benefit of those around us. That's how we are made righteous by faith, and how we remain righteous in in Christ, by faith, man, it's so, so good. So, thank you, and I know your, your music now, your art, is having a ripple effect right now. That's that's who knows what the Lord wants to do, man. But I'm praying for this thing, to to blow up for flame, and that your and that your heart, um, and that the good people around you, that you know, the hedge of protection, the love of the Lord, all of those things would just be around you as you carry out your work. Man, I'm praying for you, praying for you big time. So is there any? Is there any music that, without music, any rap that you could just share for us as we close?
Speaker 3:Let me see what's in what's in the can. Let me see, oh yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 3:Oh, now we get the river Jordan. John the Baptist baptized Jesus. Then he brought him out of water, father, son and the Holy Spirit all present, like how the creation started. Heaven's opened up Spirit descended like a dove and he came down and rested on us. Rested on them. This, my son, in whom I'm well pleased. The father speaks from heaven. Put his blessing on them. This, the logos. Who met the standard of the law with no flaws. He kept the standard. No commandment broke it all. Yet he was tempted on every hand and never choked at all. The text reveals he did fulfill all righteousness, in fact. Then he got this hill and blood got spilled and that sacrificial act. Now he is the promise the father has made us through prophets and priests, to be our mediator. His baptism basically inaugurated to bring new beginnings, redeeming creation. Now how we access what he earned back then historic objective for women and men with no exceptions. He died for our sin. Christ said by faith you get baptized in.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, baby. Yes, so grateful bro. Thanks for doing that. You are gifted One last indulgence just for me.
Speaker 4:My son is a huge fan. Would you give him a shout out as we wrap up to what's the question?
Speaker 3:What's his name? Christian, christian, yeah, christian. What's going on? This is your brother in Christ, flame. Thank you for listening to the music. Thank you for tapping in. That's encouraging to me. Hopefully you're finding things in the music that are blessing you. So until we meet in person, god's peace.
Speaker 2:Thank you. This has been so much fun. Flame, Thank you. This is lead time. Sharing is caring. I'm going to go and check out Flame's music. Where can they hit you up, man? Where do they find you? I'm a Spotify guy. That's where my son and I listen.
Speaker 3:Where else can they find your music? Yes, so the music is wherever music is streamed. So, if you're Apple Music, spotify, the like, if you want to just go to a hub for all things, flame Extra, noce Academy.
Speaker 4:ExtraNoceAcademycom. We got the podcast, the merch the music. Go enjoy yourself.
Speaker 3:We have the audio book also, so for people that are on the go, you can enjoy the audio book. I'm actually reading a book myself.
Speaker 2:How was that Getting to read your own book?
Speaker 4:It wasn't since.
Speaker 3:It was probably about 13 hours of audio which you narrated right we got it down to about five and a half hours and it's also produced. So certain parts that I'm talking about like, for example, I talked about an accident I was in you will hear the tire screech and the cars- collide, it's really good. It's a journey, it's a fun, immersive experience.
Speaker 2:It's also good Thanks for this time, man, your generosity, your hospitality, your kindness, your passion for the Lord. He is using you in beautiful ways. This is a good day. Go make it a great day. We'll be back next week with another episode of Lead Time. Thanks, so much Flame.
Speaker 1:Thanks, jack. Yes, You've been listening to Lead Time, a podcast of the Unite Leadership Collector. The ULC's mission is to collaborate with the local church and deploy leaders through Biblical Lutheran doctrine and innovative methods to partner with us in this gospel message. Subscribe to our channel, then go to theunitel leadershiporg to create your free login for exclusive material and resources and then to explore ways in which you can sponsor an episode. Thanks for listening and stay tuned for next week's episode.