Lead Time
Lead Time
Can the LCMS Be More Inviting? | The Ministry Journey of Pastor Greg Griffith
What if your journey to finding purpose took a turn you never expected? In this episode of Lead Time, we sit down with Greg Griffith, a seasoned pastor from King of Kings in Omaha, to uncover his unexpected path to ministry. From a seemingly ordinary childhood faith to a profound transformation in college, Greg shares how a mentor's guidance and a divine encounter shifted his aspirations from law to becoming a pastor. Discover the traits that marked him for leadership and the pivotal moments that defined his spiritual journey.
Looking for innovative ways to make your church more engaging and welcoming? Greg opens up about practical strategies that have successfully attracted and retained members across generations at King of Kings. Learn about creative events like trunk-or-treats and themed Sundays, and explore how modern worship elements like haze and lighting can enhance the church experience. Greg emphasizes low-barrier invitation opportunities, fostering a vibrant community where everyone feels welcome.
Lastly, we tackle the complexities of pastoral transitions and the importance of mutual respect within church leadership. Greg reflects on his own experiences with transitioning into senior pastoral roles, highlighting the significance of readiness and mutual love for the congregation. We also discuss the broader vision of unity among churches, emphasizing collaboration and authentic connections. Tune in for a rich conversation filled with wisdom, practical insights, and a shared dream for a flourishing church community.
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Speaker 3:Welcome to Lead Time, tim Allman, here with Jack Kauberg. It's a hot, scorchy day here in the desert. I pray that the joy and love and the warmth of the Holy Spirit is with you today as we get the privilege of hanging out with one of my longtime friends, partners in the gospel, an amazing pastor, an amazing leader and I'm not just saying that to build you up, man, I've heard that from so many people. The one and only Greg Griffith is with us today, a five-year pastor at King of Kings in Omaha. We're going to be talking leadership in the church. We're going to be talking transition. Maybe we'll get into some systems, kind of healthy culture conversation. Today it's going to be a good time. And then always we talk about our hopes and dreams for the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, kind of moving into a new day and age. It's going to be a lot of fun. So, five years at King of Kings, 20 years as a pastor. So before talking about ministry at King of Kings, greg, well, how are you doing?
Speaker 1:Before I jump into a question, you doing all right, man it is so good to be with you guys and I'm doing terrific.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, Same here, same here. So let us know more about your childhood and what you thought God was going to do in your life. I've heard this story a couple, three times from different angles and I think it's very, very formative. A lot of people come into ministry kind of oh yeah, Jesus, and other people come in kind of kicking and screaming.
Speaker 1:I think you're a little bit more of the latter, at least early on. So tell that story, greg. Yeah, I don't know if I'd say per se kicking and screaming as much as just kind of not really there. I think if you asked me like, tell me about your childhood and what God was seeing you do, or you thought God was up to in your life as a child, I would say I don't, I didn't think God was up to anything in my life. Um, as a child, we went to church every week. We were Sunday um church goers. I did the confirmation my parents served, but we didn't really talk about God outside of um Sunday morning. Um, we didn't. Uh, you know, we, we didn't, we didn't, we didn't pray before meals. Um, know, I think God was a conversation piece of. Like. You know, if I use the Lord's name in vain, my mom would say hey, I don't think you're supposed to say that.
Speaker 1:And so I really kind of see my faith journey growing up as one that was probably like a typical person in our country, where God's there when you need to pray, god's there when things are wrong. I, you know, I remember reading my Bible as a junior, higher and a high schooler, um, in my bed when something was up and I was just like what's going on? But I don't even know where I was looking, um, to see and find God, so on, but I don't even know where I was looking to see and find God. So for me faith became really real and became a life, like a life principle, probably around middle of college. And that so I had a pastor who saw something in me as a junior and senior hire would tell me, go, you know, I should go into ministry and go be a pastor. And I just thought he was crazy. And and so it was really just through his recommendation that I even ended up at a Concordia, concordia, Irvine.
Speaker 1:But you know, and then it was at Irvine that then I was saying, you know, went to be a lawyer, worked in a law firm, realized, you know, by the time I'd be super old, around 40, which I'm 47 now and realize that's not old at all. That law wasn't for me, just the mundane pieces wasn't for me. Kind of went through quite a few majors. Finally, one night was walking and praying and God just visibly said you know what you're supposed to do? And I said it's only only through you getting me through languages and kind of the fear. And so then I said, ok, I think I want to be a pastor. And so then started about my junior year, started taking religious education classes and always felt like the least qualified person in the room and I honestly probably was.
Speaker 4:But God had a plan, so Greg, when you were being mentored by a pastor at a time this was in college you said what was it that he saw in you that caused him to say I think you should be a pastor?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a good question. I don't know, I think he just saw one. I'm a highly relational person and I think he saw that. I do think he saw some integrity and character.
Speaker 1:I was a person that tried to live out just some values, wasn't kind of in the day-to-day high school like, you know, living for just right now or you know whatever girl was most important, that I would sacrifice everything for.
Speaker 1:I just kind of always had a little bit of a bigger vision. I think he too saw just some leadership stuff that I didn't even see at that time. But I also think sometimes leadership and I was doing this you can either lead really well or you can lead just people to other things, and sometimes I would lead and especially as a junior high, senior high kid, I wasn't probably leading people to like go go where they should. I remember when I got ordained at my ordination, my confirmation teacher, who was a lay person, had been at the church forever, just walked up to me and my parents and said I didn't even think you'd be a Christian, let alone a pastor, and a lot of that was because I just was always researching different faiths and different ideas and different models, and so I think he just saw in me someone that loves people and that really could lead really, really well.
Speaker 3:That's so good. How has that shaped the way you lead in the local church, greg, your story, your kind of pre-on-fire ministry story? How does that shape discipleship the I See in you conversation with other people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I do the I See in you all the time. I mean, I think it's just so important for us to recognize in other people what we see in their potential. I think for me also, because I'm not a I am not a like generational pastor I would say we're also Lutheran because both of my parents were divorced prior to them getting married. They went to a Catholic church to get married. That Catholic church told them they couldn't get married unless their marriage was annulled. Both of them said that doesn't seem to make sense. We were actually married and it was only because a Lutheran church pastor said we'll marry you that they became Lutheran.
Speaker 1:So I very much believe in a couple things. I believe in allowing God and the Holy Spirit to do the amazing work of bringing people into your church, but that we release a lot of the bars, we release a lot of the expectation. We really just say we want everyone. I believe everyone just needs to know they belong. Um, and the faith part is God part, and then the becoming part is where we just kind of hold on and grab on and say I've got a, that my faith is leading me to transform my life, to becoming more, uh, more like Jesus every day.
Speaker 1:So I think for me, when I think about ministry, I think about how how can we in the easiest way get people to just say I like coming to your church? I don't even, like I always say to our teams I want people to come to our church, love the weekend experience and say, and even those who don't believe in Jesus go. I don't know that I buy into the Jesus thing yet, but man, every time I come here like my life's better and like Monday is better. So that's kind of where I always look at it as saying if church isn't fun, if church isn't a place where people just like want to get to, then that's like I feel like we're missing something. That's just part of me.
Speaker 4:What are some of the tangible things that you actually do to foster that in your church setting?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I mean it comes from a lot of different ways. Like, I believe in attractional church ministry, so we're good with having community events. And, by the way, let me say this Rich Birch just said this on a podcast, right, and it's very true Every church has attractional elements of your church. So if you have a sign outside in front of your church that is an attractional model, like you're saying here's a sign, we want you to know information, we're trying to attract you in church. If you vacuum, if you have someone, you are attractional. You are saying we want you to come here and have an experience that you don't walk in and go. This church is gross, um and so so. So you're doing everyone does some sort of attractional. It's just how far do you go with it? And so I do your audiences.
Speaker 4:Right, and who your audience is. Yeah, absolutely. Some churches would say we are unapologetically liturgical, confessional.
Speaker 1:That's the first thing that we're going to front about, about everything and there is an audience, but that's yeah, that that's attractional right, absolutely, absolutely for sure, right and so, um, and and so, so. So we do like. The way I practically live this out is we'll do, we'll do throughout the year, um, and we do those with zero expectation. We just want to say, hey, we want you to come, so, whether it's a back to school event or whether it's a, you know, a trunk or treat or something like that, and then we'll also do fun Sundays, um, where, where Sunday just looks great, I love I took this from a church in Texas.
Speaker 1:I love it's called Super Sweet Sunday, and so it's a Sunday, super Sweet Sunday, and so it's a Sunday prior to the Sunday prior to Halloween, and we tell all the kids come out, come to church on Sunday in your church, appropriate costumes, and and then, and then we have candy everywhere. I mean they get more candy than they will going out that night and and and we just want kids to come in and just go. This is amazing, like I love this and they do and then they bring their friends and they have a great experience. Or like in July we call it July Sundays, are for Sundays, and so in the month of July, at all campuses, we have ice cream available at the end of every service, starting at 9 am through noon, and there's bomb pops one week, there's drum sticks another week, and then it culminates with the final week where you can build your own Sunday bar, and so it has nothing to do with the message.
Speaker 4:I bet the just don't like that very much.
Speaker 1:Oh man, the adults do like I'm like oh, two weeks, like two years ago, someone on our staff discovered the little tiny mini drumsticks, like those little drumstick ice creams, and I was like, oh, dude, I can eat four of these and feel like I've, I've, like it's still healthy, so so.
Speaker 3:I have so many things to say. Right now I'm keeping my mouth shut, but it's so good, it's so much fun yeah.
Speaker 2:And that's what we want.
Speaker 1:I really want people to just go. Like my model and my is I want people to go. I didn't think church could be like this, or, or when I was a kid, this was not what church was. Or, for those who invite someone and that person finally takes the risk of the courage of saying I'm going to show up at church because I love so-and-so, who's invited me for the past two years, that they come and they go wow, that was amazing.
Speaker 1:Also, let me say this I think it's important to build those invitational Sundays in, because I don't believe it's truly I don't believe it's realistic to think our people are going to invite someone every week, like that's just too hard to do. But if we have like four Sundays that we go, the invitation bar is low, like this is a speed bump, this is not a hurdle, right. Then all of a sudden, we just say to people hey, there's four times a year. Golly, just find two that really fits your niche, and that you know someone that maybe has a kid or maybe you go, you know, um, they, they would. They just love ice cream. So I mean, who doesn't love ice cream? Right, and so? So then come along, so that that's kind of our model and how?
Speaker 3:we apply. I love it Great. What is worship then? On those four Sundays per se, super sweet Sundays, what does worship look like?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so so worship worship looks still still the same. I mean, we, we don't, we don't, we don't build a series around that, we try to have you know. So. So Sunday worship will still look. Look for us, it's very modern, it's very engaging. We want our congregation singing, but we also want a modern feel.
Speaker 1:So so we have the haze and and, by the way, let me say this, cause some people are like, and we have even people on our, on our, in our church that will be like why do we need? They call it smoke. Our production teams are like it's not smoke, it's haze. Um, why do we have to do the haze? And actually here's what I tell them.
Speaker 1:I go we don't have to and I say it isn't even actually something I personally love, but I do have a 20-year-old young man who's been with us for two years, who's started interning in our production department, who this was kind of his generation, his idea and something he he builds light, the light experience as well as the Hayes experience.
Speaker 1:And I said, in a church where we spend, in a church culture, where we talk all the time about where are the 20 somethings? Like, if I can sacrifice my like Hayes senses to allow a 20 year old to be leading at this stage. Am I not willing to do that? Like am I willing to say I'm going to sacrifice how I perceive and want worship in order? That gosh, we've got a 20 year old, not only who's here, but actually is is looking and saying I think I want to do ministry in life because I've been able to do this, and so that's one of the things that I look at in our worship experiences of how are we empowering others and raising up the next generation and raising up the next leadership by sacrificing even what we might perceive as my personal preference?
Speaker 3:I think a lot of times the attractional conversation moves quickly into the worship conversation you know, traditional, contemporary I think our worship should be glorifying to God, should be well put together, whether you're traditional or contemporary. If you can't do contemporary well and you're kind of one of those smaller, don't do it. Just don't don't like play on the piano, have the organ. Just be winsome, hospitable, diligent with the liturgy. And so I think, smaller churches I'd love to get your take on this smaller churches, very liturgical, traditional churches and the King of Kings, People have certain predispositions. You know about what, king of Kings, you've compromised, et cetera. No, no, no. There is space in the Lutheran Church, missouri Synod, for all of these types of churches and expressions to do whatever makes sense in your culture to get people to hear the gospel, believe the gospel, follow after Jesus whatever it takes. And so some may say, like you're selling out. If you're into attractional ministry, you're selling out. Well then, jesus was a sellout, right? I mean Jesus was very attractional. That wasn't the end of the journey, that wasn't the end of discipleship, but I mean 5,000 men alone come to receive a meal from Jesus, like the crowds are gathering Now he does winnow down over his time as the bar gets raised, if you will, for what?
Speaker 3:The cost of following Jesus is the theology of the cross is all of you are going to leave. You know, and you've got those moments. I think it's John 6, right, where all these disciples go away. Are you two going to go away? Where else are we going to go? You have the words of eternal life.
Speaker 3:So Jesus does kind of bring the masses, but then he elevates the expectation. Right, I mean, he feeds the body, he heals those who are mentally, emotionally, spiritually ill, but then he elevates what it looks like then to follow after him, to pick up their cross and follow after him. And that is what we see in the early church. It was a very attractional move that crosses Jew, gentile, slave, free, young, old, rich, poor, male, female, right, it was this move, but there was a cost to it. So I think a lot of times we're too narrow in our thinking, that we think if we're attractional we're compromising the cost of following Jesus. I think it's unwise not to start with attract, and I think we agree on that. Anything more to say to that, greg.
Speaker 1:You know, I think the only thing I would say is I love the fact Jesus was attractional, and he was even attractional to his very last breath, right, I mean it's at the cross.
Speaker 1:The Roman centurion says, truly, this was the son of God. I mean his very last breath was still attracting people from the outside to go. There's something different about this, jesus, and I think for me, I want to look and go. You know, for me, lutheranism, and I love Lutheranism. I believe Lutheranism has the best expression of the gospel of any church on the planet. There's no doubt about it.
Speaker 1:And here's what I love about it Lutheranism is a full expression of scripture alone, faith alone and grace alone, and it's in that grace alone that the character of God is. Not this for me, not this God who's far off or not even involved in our life, only in the serious matters. But our God loves to laugh with us, our God loves to smile with us, our God loves to high five us, and so I just love the attractional piece of Jesus of to say, if we're going to say he's our best friend, man, the beauty of best friends is we get to have fun with them. So let's do that for here and for the new life and the new heaven and the new earth.
Speaker 3:Love that so good, all right, so let's get into King of Kings. Just top three things, greg, that make you excited about what the Lord is doing at King of Kings. Been there five years. We're going to get into the transition conversation, as you followed longtime pastor Mark Zender, but right now, what's getting you pumped?
Speaker 1:Yeah, quite a few things have me pumped. We're in just a great, crazy season. We're right now rebuilding, completely rebuilding our student ministry, our kids ministry, and we're just pivoting. How we're doing that, I think you know if you're still doing student ministry the same way you were doing it five years ago, you're probably out of date. And same thing with kids, and so we realized we were out of date. So I'm actually really enjoying just kind of getting into the weeds with our student ministry and our kids ministry and kind of saying what does this look like? How does this? How are we and how are we not counting numbers? Because everyone thinks, right, your numbers matter, they don't, it's counting who are you retaining in the handoffs as you move from kids into junior high and junior high to high school, high school and college and so forth and so so. So I'm really pumped about that. That's been exciting. That's been a lot of fun. I've been enjoying watching our team do that.
Speaker 3:I got to go just a little bit deeper. What are you doing? That's different now than five years ago.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so there's quite a bit. So so we're we're now pushing to where we're going to do on. Like all, student ministry will be now on Wednesday nights and we're doing six or eight, six or 12th grade, but then they'll break out two weeks of the month. They'll break out into small groups, gender based, grade based small groups. Their teaching will be a portion as well as worship Sundays. We will have no high school ministry on Sunday mornings.
Speaker 1:We want high schoolers actually serving, serving down, so into our junior high, serving down into our kids ministry, serving in our worship, doing those things and then accentuating them as leaders. Doing those things and then accentuating them as leaders. Also, again back to attractional, and we do this. Most churches do this, right, if you have a kid's ministry and a kid brings a guest, that kid usually gets a prize and the guest gets a prize too. It's usually candy or something like that.
Speaker 1:For some reason, we personally here we just stopped doing that, by the way, we do that with adults, right. So like, hey, do you want to serve on VBS? Sign up to serve today. You get a free T-shirt, right? So so we do this all the time. And we were saying the high schoolers were like we don't. We don't give you anything for bringing kids, we don't give you anything for inviting someone or for showing up or doing anything. So so we're getting back to where we're doing If you invite someone, you get a ticket, a raffle, and then we're going to do some pretty big, outrageous things for kids and we're really wanting. We're not looking to out entertain the world for our kids because we can't, we'll never do that, but we do. We do have an opportunity to out engage the world with kids relationally, not only with us and adults, but also with one another, and so so I'm really excited for what that's going to look like. We're kind of building a new paradigm for how we do student ministry.
Speaker 3:So, we'll find out what else is getting you, yeah, what else is getting you excited? Thanks for sharing that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I'm I'm also really excited about our we're. God has laid an ambitious plan upon us, which is to have 10 new campuses in the next 20 years, and so last October we launched our second campus. We do video venue, we do video venue. So we video venue in preaching. It's live worship and live hosting by a campus director or campus pastor at that site, and we're right now in talks with another church about potentially merging and becoming a third site for us and we're looking at an area where there's not a church like us for a potential fourth site.
Speaker 1:I'm excited about this for a couple reasons. One, I think it's a model. The video venue model with multi-site is a model that is scalable and sustainable. I've watched too many pastors and churches start sites, place a pastor at that site and then three to five years from then, they're just always spinning their wheels of restaffing, restaffing. Also also consistency and messaging from Sunday morning is super hard to keep and then it just kind of you really can get to two, maybe three with that model, but it's really hard to get past that. Some are doing it and doing it well, but it's like a grind and a beat down on that. So I'm excited about this.
Speaker 1:I feel like this is an area where King of Kings for our church body is pioneering. We don't have a pathway or a trail that this has been done and done really well to say here's our learnings, um, uh, so, so we're kind of working on that. I'm excited about that, um, and, and I'm really excited to to see, like, how, how is God going to continue? Um, to help us. Cause, here's my desire Too many churches in our, especially in our tribe, with our expression, which is the best, are closing, and I don't want them to close. I'd rather say let's just start relaunching and then resourcing smaller churches to do the ministries they want to do, do the ministries that are making community impact that people are saying oh yeah, I remember St Whatever, and and and oh gosh man, this church is, is alive, they're for the community, so yeah, so that's our second thing I'm really pumped about, really excited about that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think to pause on that. I think scale very rarely do we talk in the LCMS about, about scale.
Speaker 2:I think it's a it's a viable conversation.
Speaker 3:We're kind of just starting the conversation right now. Greg Jack, you and I were in the meeting yesterday where we're more of a preaching team and I know you've got a team approach too, and that because we've got like three and a half. We got a micro site that's going right now and then three sites and so could there be live preaching periodically sprinkled in at some, and then video used, you know, half the time or so.
Speaker 3:So a little bit of a hybrid of what you're doing right now, realizing that we have a lot of people that can pastor and not pastoring is very, very hard. So shepherding, you know, mary Berry, baptizing being with people. So shepherding, you know, mary Berry, baptizing being with people in the midst of you, know the highest of highs and lowest of lows, and teaching, if you will right, and digging into the Word, leading a good Bible study, etc. But it's a smaller number of people and this is not elitist or anything like that, but it's just a smaller number of people who have the kind of pulpit platform communication gift and we're going to blow up. We're like we got so many pastors bivocational pastors right now, but there's probably not all of them are going to be on that preaching team in time and I think it's a both and rather than an either or, and it's taken me because I care so much about leadership development at the highest level. That's my heart. No-transcript. You know the Phoenix Valley and what we're attempting to do something similar to you.
Speaker 4:20 and 20, right For us here. So go ahead In lines with what Tim is saying. You know, what you can see potentially is a scale to actually be able to start something really small. If you need to right A really small, let's just say it's a group of 25 people in this area.
Speaker 4:That's difficult to commute to come to Gilbert, in our case, right? Well, you can gather these people and you can use video as the means of delivering the word and you could have, you know, somebody that you're kind of commissioning as the local elder to do sacramental experience. You know, administer the sacrament locally, like you know, under the supervision of our senior pastor, right? So the scale, you know it creates a whole new level of scale, which then that can you know, if it all works out, you've got that great content being delivered in that small location. That becomes something that you can grow with, right? So I, we have to be open to that, you know.
Speaker 1:And yeah, go ahead. Yeah, no, it's a resistance, and I think you have to look at your culture, you have to look at your context in your community. One thing that would be really interesting, um. So so phoenix is one of I I think maybe the only location that I know of, um where lifechurch Craig Groeschel's church planted a church and it closed.
Speaker 4:Really close to us actually. Yeah, the joke is because they were too close to us.
Speaker 1:Right, for sure, yeah, but I think there's got to be some learnings there. So, like why, where he's got? He's got 38 locations across the Midwest. Like what was it about Phoenix that didn't allow? Because their I mean their worship is second to none as far as a music and production experience. Their preaching is really great, so something was there that didn't translate from Midwest out there. So that's a learning and discovery that has to happen and you have to look at that throughout and where you're at.
Speaker 1:I will say this we had some people here when we were launching and told them about broadcasts. They were like, oh, I could never watch the message on a screen. Well, we got a super funky room, could never watch the message on a screen. Well, we got a super funky room, and so our worship space is rectangular. You know it's an old assembly line. I just said to them when you watch the message or listen to the message at our campus, where are your eyes? Are you focused on the live person or up on the screens? Because we have a on them. And they said well, I'm watching the screens. I said, so, you actually already do video venue, even at our current campus. Um, and then for those who say I just I don't like watching videos, uh, or watching screens, I would actually counter and say you watch screens probably 85 percent of your time throughout your week, whether it's your phone right now on a podcast, or or your work, right? I mean, like in television, we watch screens all the time. So so, really, what it comes down to and this has been our hard part is how do we engage with the camera in order to feel like we're in the room, and there are ways, and there are ways and learnings and expertise to be able to do that, and so we were watching, and really also it's watching yourself.
Speaker 1:Coming back to scalability, tim and Jack, I think you both have said this. I think it's also really important and I would say this probably is a critique I have of our system is we built and said the pastor is all of the apest, right, we're the apostle, the prophet, the evangelist, the teacher and the shepherd right, and the reality is God doesn't wire us to be all those things, and so we have to realize how does God wire me? Some of us are amazing preachers. Some of us are amazing caregivers right, like Michael Hyden is a guy like he, you know, someone walks into his space and they're down and they're out and Michael's going to make sure they feel and know that they are one-on-one, perfectly loved and cared.
Speaker 1:I don't have that gift, like, if you're in a hospital, you don't want me there, like I'm not the guy right, I'm just not there with that. I'm not the guy right, I'm just not there with that. And so understand who we are and how we're wired and built and then be okay with that, because I think that's really an important piece for us to look at and say lean into how God's wired you and your strength. Don't try to be all things as a pastor, because then you'll actually do a deficiency to everything.
Speaker 3:So to use higher ed or just education principles in general. We have in our system batched pastors rather than matched them right With their unique gifts in their respective context on a team. If you nail down self-awareness, understanding of your role in that community and then your role on the ministry team, that appears to be what Jesus kind of set up. Greg, they're all unique. I mean, you got a zealot, you got a tax collector, you got all these types of spectrum of personalities and giftings that are there, but we've not made room, I guess, if you will, for so I'll get a little bit snarky.
Speaker 3:I guess the Lutheran entrepreneur, visionary, passionate, extroverted, risk-taking pastor, they're viewed as liberal, wacky, heretic, even though none of those things I just said have anything to do with theology, it's more the personality of that pastor. We have generally said you're not with us and I think that's to our systemic detriment as a church and that's one of the reasons this podcast exists is to say, okay, we got something to learn and we can talk about first article realities, how to lead well, how did God make us and not move into? You know this isn't a liberal conversation, this is just the way the world works and respecting unique gifts and unique people. So let's move into matching rather than simply batching Anything more to say as we land that plane, gigi.
Speaker 1:Oh man, I would just say it's so true and what you're talking about. So I'm right now reading through a book called Rocket Fuel and what it really talks about is the need for any organization, any organization, to have a visionary and then an implementer. And the reality is that true visionaries that match up to kind of 80% of I'm a visionary, true visionaries, only 3% of the population are that. And I'd be super curious to do a study of our church body pastors, I would assume, because we attract actually most pastors, are actually introverts. I would assume we're less than that. 3%, agreed, but then I think most are actually implementers, right, and so they're kind of one saying, let me take a vision. Inventors, right, and so they're kind of one saying, let me take a vision.
Speaker 1:But if there's no vision, that's happening, then you're going to run into trouble because what are you implementing, right? Or you're trying to do both, or there's an expectation for both. And that's where I mean you look at you know, this is Walt Disney with Roy Disney. Nobody knows Roy Disney, right? This is McDonald's had both of these, right? Everyone.
Speaker 1:I would even venture to say you have Luther and Melanchthon, and they both were able to walk and truly be a V and an I together, and they don't always match well, but you've got to match them well, and then you've got to work it well. So, and then you've got to work it well, and the hard part is, in our system we've kind of said you know, there is no more. The only vision is the vision to share the good news. That's our purpose. But there are so many ways right, there's only one way to the Father and that's through Jesus. There are so many ways to Jesus, and so let's just look out and recognize that Jesus meets people all the time where they're at, in different ways and different ways that we're, that we're known.
Speaker 3:Yeah, all right, we man. I can say so much more there, but we got. We got more ground to cover. Let's talk about transition. One of my longtime friends I would say a spiritual father for me over the years you would probably say the same as mark zender yeah, uh, talk about how that transition took place. A little bit of a longer runway, few people. Why I respect you to the nth degree is you would follow like it's one thing to follow a guy that's like, well, it, it was a little bit rough landing there, but you followed a guy that was as smooth a landing as you can possibly imagine and I know the grounding of that well. One, it's the power of the Holy Spirit and two, it's remarkable humility that Jesus gave to Mark Zender to release, to pass, to champion you as you transition into your lead role. So talk about that transition. It seemed pretty smooth from the outside, gigi.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it was really smooth. So I've actually done two transitions into a senior role. My first transition was at the church. I was called to out of seminary and that transition was done as from an associate into a senior pastor role and that transition went well, but it had probably a little bit more hurdles than we realized and that we knew I was ready for that transition to happen. I think the congregation was a little bit ready not perfectly ready and then I would actually say I don't think the person that I followed was ready. I think he knew it was time, but I don't think he was actually ready and so that was a hard part and we had some hurdles in that. But we were able to make it work because we both had mutual respect for one another and so it worked really well because we mutually respected one another and we mutually loved the congregation that we were in. I had been there at that time for almost eight years. My wife and I had gotten married there. Both our girls were baptized there. I wanted that congregation to flourish and so I would sacrifice my own pride and my own ego in order to make sure that our team ministry worked together. I think. Well, he had been there for 28 years of his ministry and had seen the congregation grow under his leadership, and so his desire and passion was he would sacrifice his own ego and his own pride in order to make sure our team ministry worked. So that was one way that transition worked well.
Speaker 1:When I got here to King of Kings, mark and I both had immense honor and respect for one another. I knew that this was a place where Mark had just poured his life into and also Mark just had this amazing visionary like he and I were like. We are very, very similar. We have some differences, but we're very similar in our approach to ministry and our model. So we had that going for us. The big piece also that we had going for us is he was ready, I was ready, and the congregation was ready. And I'm going to add a fourth piece the staff was ready, and that was an important piece, because then it was something that everyone was like yes, even though there's some sadness and sorrow, we're ready for this to happen. And so there was the ability for us to grieve, the ability for us to go gosh, that's a little different. What do we do with that? But also everyone to go, but this is what we know we were ready for, and so there was also excitement. The other piece, I think, with Mark and I and this is something I've learned recently and I would say this the transition is never done as long as both are still in the congregation and I'm going to.
Speaker 1:I believe that if you have a long-term pastor, the pastor should be able to go to that congregation. I don't like when we go oh, you don't have to be there. This is not just a science. This is an art. Transition's an art, which means it's not going to always look the same for everyone. It's going to be dependent a lot on our personalities and our readiness.
Speaker 1:Mark is my biggest cheerleader to me and around me and just in the midst of me, and I'm his biggest cheerleader. I am so thankful for him. I also love you know. We met last week and I just spent the afternoon at his house sitting poolside and saying, hey, here's a few things like I'm curious about, what are your thoughts on this? And so so again, it's making sure that that he knows some things, has input in things, making sure that he knows I value still his ability to contribute and that's a big deal Like. He's still very relevant to our ministry, and he's relevant because he has a passion and a care and only sits in the seat that I sit.
Speaker 1:There's a great book I read that was called the Ex-Presidents Club and it's a tremendous book and I'm assuming actually this club is kind of broken right now because of current times, but this went up through President George W Bush and President Obama President George W Bush and President Obama and what it was is it was started by Harry Truman and it was just how do we treat those who are now in the seat that only we sat in? And at any given time, there's only about five other human beings that have ever sat in the seat of the President of the United States that are alive up to five about and so there's a special, unique club in that and that's the same thing here. Like the only person that actually knows what it's like to sit in my seat at King of Kings is Mark. No one else.
Speaker 1:And so there's something really important about us just staying in touch with one another on that, and then I would say our last thing for our transition that has gone super well is, I would say that we really just have this amazing love for one another, amazing love for one another. Mark knows that for his legacy to be successful, our church must grow beyond where it was. And for our church to grow beyond where it was, I've got to always honor the shoulders I'm standing on, and so we have that just mutual belief and and heart for one another. And yeah, it has. I mean I would say from the outside it looks like it's gone really well. I must say, from the inside it's gone tremendous. This is, this has been one of the best, the best transition that I could ever even think of could ever even think of.
Speaker 3:It's such an awesome story and unfortunately, far too infrequent. I agree with you If the transition has been done well, the pastor staying in the congregation can certainly happen, I think, in a friendship and a respect one to another. He's got enough self-awareness to not insert himself into various things that are going on. But when advice, counsel, is sought, you have enough trust in him that he can speak honestly and that's just. It's a beautiful story and I think the example should be the way pastors treat one another.
Speaker 3:There are very few people that know what it's like to be a pastor in a church, to be the guy that's kind of making some of the harder decisions, and so in our circuits can we treat and honor and respect one another and go to one another for advice and care and counsel? I hope so. Rather than seeing one another as competitors no, like there's so many people that need the gospel let's care for one another and lift one another up, collaborate with one another. I mean, one of the coolest things for me and in our ministry now here at Christ Greenfield is our collaborative sermon writing. So we got the gospel being preached, similar messages being preached in multiple I think it's at any given time, it's between four and six spaces where the gospel is being shared, in those in those collaborative sermon times, and we're just better together. Anything more to say to just collaboration between pastors and churches, greg.
Speaker 1:You know, I I had the honor of doing a funeral for a guy who was, uh, in the military as a drill sergeant and then he was in the fire department as he retired and then he died from leukemia at about 46 years old. Wow and um, they closed down like they shifted closed down is the wrong word they shifted all emergency fire calls to outside that community for that time of the funeral, because all the fire came. Air Force Base had, I mean, we had a thousand first responders and military servicemen and women at this funeral honoring the life of this guy and they just said we're family. Why wouldn't we show up? And they were there before he died, with the family. And they were there after he died, caring for his family, because they said we're family, family. And they were there after he died, caring for his family, because they said we're family.
Speaker 1:And I just remember actually having some sorrow because I thought to myself why are we not doing this as clergy, like, like we're, we don't look at each other as family?
Speaker 1:Um, unfortunately we, we don't look at each other and say you know that, that there is someone that I love and I care for, that I want to be there for. And so, like, I looked at at our fire personnel, at those who are on the front lines, because they realize they're willing to give each other's life for one another in order, the sakes of lives of others. Holy smokes, pastors, we are on the front lines against Satan. Like all of our families have been attacked and beaten, we've had more temptation thrown at us. The target on us is huge Our marriages, our parenting right, like we are, there's not any one of us that has not been wounded by by the, by the weapons of Satan. And and so, like, how do I not look at my fellow pastors and say, man, like, we're in this together? We may not always agree on everything, but at the end of the day, we're fighting the one fight that really matters, and I can't fight it without you.
Speaker 2:And so that's all I would add to that.
Speaker 3:That's good. We're coming down the homestretch here. Two final questions and we're going to elevate the conversation just a bit. I think a lot of folks can look at King of Kings and you know there are many different labels that we throw at churches, like this Like well, you gave into the charismatic movement back in the day I heard some rumors about that and you know. And then your large church. You don't really care about people, you're all about production and attractional ministry and we even started with the conversation there, and then we just kind of dismiss everything. What misnomer or two about being a large church pastor? And that is all of our churches. Well, generally in the LCMS, large is like we don't have any mega, we may have some more large. Exactly as those numbers are used cross-denominationally, we are declining from the top, if you will, from our large churches down. But what misnomer or two about being a large church pastor in the LCMS would you lovingly like to dismiss Greg?
Speaker 1:I think I would dismiss a couple things. I would first say it's not about numbers, like I everyone says oh look, you know, I get this all the time. You really just care about numbers. We do measure everything, but they're not the end of all things. It's really about how are we engaging people? Um, and and and. What are we doing to engage people, you know, with God, connect with God? How are we connecting with each other and connecting to the world? How are we connecting with each other and connecting to the world? And I think that that's a big piece for us and a big piece for me. That's why our app is like we pray daily, like people can put prayer requests on the app. We pray daily for people and I then am able to use that and if I see them, I can say, hey, I prayed for you on, like, how's that going?
Speaker 1:I love the other churches that are in our community and I want them to flourish. I want every church to to be doing well in whatever context that they have and that they need. And, matter of fact, I, when I meet someone who comes through our doors for the first time and they go, I don't, I don't know if I love this church. I go awesome. Hey, what are you looking for? Gosh, you might love this church. Like, this is a great place, and and and. So we just want to. I just really want to help other churches pour gas onto what they're doing, because I need them Like we cannot be.
Speaker 1:If God desired that there would only be one church on every street corner and it would all be the same, Jesus never would have ascended and left the church to human beings and, second of all, we wouldn't have every church. We wouldn't have churches on every street corner. So how do we just like I would say, as a large church pastor, I'm not looking at stealing anyone. I'm actually looking at saying how do I get more people to where you're going? And then how do I come alongside you and how do we walk together Because we need one another? Like we can't I can't do everything that other churches are doing.
Speaker 4:I've often said in our own context, because we talk a lot about metrics and stuff like that, but the numbers themselves don't matter right. What makes numbers matter is only the extent that they represent people, and people matter Right. So if people matter, then the numbers that represent those people. They should matter to us.
Speaker 4:We should care that more people know and love Jesus, right, and that's kind of the way of reorienting and it's like it's not a win that something was some number is bigger. It's a win because more people are connected to Jesus, more people are in Christian community, more people are growing in their faith and their vocations right, that's what matters. And then the numbers then they just become a tool to help us know. Are we winning the people game, the people discipleship game? Right, and being authentic to that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's so good yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So I've just seen so much power here in the East Valley of Phoenix in churches, one pastor is extolling one another, caring for one another in their diverse contexts. I've had some pastors who you know, I've heard things on the podcast or had some preconceived notions about what Christ Greenfield was about. Actively reach out to me, some preconceived notions about what Christ Greenfield was about, actively reach out to me. And we go and sit down and we share a meal together and we become closer together and we pray for one another, like that's a beautiful thing. And we've also released people to start new ministry, our La Mesa ministry, in partnership with the church in Tempe, inner city, tempe. It's boosting what was at one time a smaller church. They have all sorts of new members now, young and old, who are coming into their congregation. So shout out to Beautiful Savior and Pastor Tim Anderson doing great work there in Tempe. We're simply, and their worship style is remarkably different. You know the feel of their space. All of it's remarkably different, but it's beautiful and it's a beautiful expression of the LCMS theology, et cetera. So, yeah, we just need one another. All different types of pastors, all different types of community doing all different types of thing under one common confession. Can that take place? It must take place today. So final, final question, again a little bit high level One of my struggles, and I think the ULC struggles, is we don't see honest conversation around where some of the gaps are, where some of the struggles are, where some of the pain points are in our synod.
Speaker 3:You can talk around formation, numbers of leaders, all that kind of stuff. Or even, like I've heard certain leaders say, we're super united. Well, I don't know. I don't know that we're super united when people won't even come on to a podcast like this where we're super evangelical, super confessional Lutherans to talk about real stuff. You know what's really going on, the metrics that are really going on.
Speaker 3:If you're going to be a healthy pastor, it's problem analysis, it's looking, this is a three. This is in us, this is ingrained in us. There's always going to be a problem. Why? Because there's sin. Sin leads to selfishness. There's always going to be problems. So honest problem analysis and then interpretation of what the problem is and then how we solve it, and then action. Right, then action. It's the unwise leader that does not go through that process as it cycles over and over and over again. And when action takes place and interpretation takes place, it better be with a team of all sorts of advisors. All sorts of advisors right now, and I don't know that that's taking place systemically in the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod today. Again, it's a system thing, it's not one person. For some reason, we're not listening to one another as well as we could and should. So anything more to add to that, and really what I'm asking you to do is problem analysis, but then vision vision for the way we could do this better.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I would say this I think I honestly believe that God has removed a mantle from our church body. I don't believe that God is going to bless a church body that spends its time fighting against one another when we're still fighting, when we're actually fighting for the cause of Christ, and if we can't extol our brothers and sisters in the faith because they're doing things that are different, and our ecclesiology is an ecclesiology that's open handed.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 1:And yet if we're not willing, like if we're going to spend time taking shots at one another without conversing with one another and without being willing to yield and go your way might not be my way, but I know that you only care about the way to Jesus I don't think God's going to bless us, matter of fact. I think God could remove that and just say you know, you're not a church body that I'm going to pour gas onto right now, and I believe that we're in that spiral and I believe that we need to confess that, and I believe that we need to confess that. I have to say I have been convicted. There was a time where I didn't speak well of my authority Matt Harrison is an authority of mine, yeah and I didn't speak well of him and I was wrong. I was wrong. I have zero defense for that and so I needed to pray for forgiveness from that. And now I never engage in conversations that are against my authority, because that's not healthy and it's not godly, and that's an important part. So I think, first, we have to acknowledge that we have a problem of loving one another as brothers and sisters in faith.
Speaker 1:I think the second piece I would say that's really important is we have to get to the business that we want, and that's the business of Jesus, which is sharing the good news of Jesus with people who currently are outside the kingdom of Jesus, them with Jesus. And I think I would say this is a problem that we're starting to ask a lot of any candidates that they're bringing on. And I asked a simple question when was the last time that you shared Jesus with someone who doesn't know Jesus? And what'd you say? And man, so many of our candidates, so many of our called workers, so many pastors that we're talking to say, well, on Sunday morning, I go no, no, no.
Speaker 1:In a one-on-one conversation like where are you meeting people that don't know Jesus? And and we're just like, how can we, how can we grow the kingdom of God if we're not actually engaging people who are outside the kingdom of God and engaging them in ways, not in like you're an agenda, but actually you're in a relationship that I care about you enough. Then you know I love you enough to be able to speak into your life. I think we have to get back to our roots, which is getting back to a loving one another and then be loving those who don't yet know that they want to love Jesus and and and get back to that evangelical spirit of identifying where are we meeting people who need to hear the good news of Jesus? Because, as I bring this back to where I started, we have the best understanding of the gospel on the face of the planet. Let's just go and share that.
Speaker 3:Jack, anything to add?
Speaker 4:Yeah, your challenge of have you had conversations with people that don't know Jesus. I think it's a very powerful one. It convicts me, you know, in your going right. In your going, we're all going.
Speaker 4:We're all having interactions with people outside the campus and do we feel confident enough to share Jesus with people right, build enough relational equity that that kind of a conversation makes sense and actually be competent at that? And if we want to be a discipling evangelical church community, we have to role model that as leaders and we have to have a team of leaders that feel very comfortable and confident and say just do what I do, right, yeah, and and be that, be that, be that type of role model for people. So I think that's a beautiful thing and I think it's something that we ought to maybe feel convicted for in a very in the positive way, convicted by the Holy Spirit that we can do more to share the gospel with more people and hold ourselves accountable. So I appreciate your perspective.
Speaker 3:A wonderful amen. Amen, a wonderful uniting piece of data was what we heard from Lyman Stone regarding smaller church pastors and maybe more introverted pastors being very eager. Even if it's not in their like wheelhouse, if you will, their evangelism wheelhouse, the pastors still know like being in the community. Developing relationships with people who are on their way to Jesus is a part of my responsibility and if I'm not modeling that and this, I pray this is across the board. No matter what kind of church, wherever you are pastors, we have to model being in the community and that means we're sharing stories of conversations that we've had. We can respect confidentiality, things like that, but if I don't share stories about the highs and the struggles with evangelism, having the evangelical conversation like, the congregation has to see it modeled from the pastor to be, to be sure. So, greg, this has been so fun. Any closing comments? Man, for the good of the conversation. The body of Christ.
Speaker 1:Hey, I just love what you guys are doing in the East Valley. I love the leadership you're taking to help our church at large be able to raise up leaders and be able to empower people to get into bivocational and also volunteer vocational ministry. And so I just want to say I am asking God to just pour abundance of favor and blessings upon you guys and I pray that you look around and just go, holy cow, like the warehouse has been opened and the floodgates have come through, and because you're making an impact and a difference that probably it's seen a little bit, but man, the full extravagant of it, won't be seen for generations to come and maybe even beyond your time. But I know it will be something that, unless Jesus returns before then, will definitely be something that has changed the scope of the landscape of our kingdom and our church, so thank you.
Speaker 3:Well, praise God, it's all. It's all him, it's not us by any stretch. And, and I pray that you use the mantle language, I would rather that mantle not be lifted from the Lutheran church.
Speaker 3:I mean, can we care for one another and can we dream with one another, can we honor one another, can we love and then, out of that love, appropriately challenge one another? That is how the mantle will be maintaining on the collective back of the LCMS. And I'm not, we're not going anywhere. And some people say you should go certain places. No, I'll tell you what. No, we're. This is our family and I'm multigenerational, you know, and you don't. You don't leave your family and every family has, has opportunities for growth Right, and we're, we're no different. So it's an awesome opportunity. Joy, greg, you're a longtime friend. Thank you for your leadership at King of Kings for the sake of the wider church and your generosity of time today. If people want to connect with you and King of Kings, how can they do so?
Speaker 1:Yeah, you can follow me on Instagram. Greg Griffith Leeds is my Instagram handle. Greg Griffith leads as my Instagram handle. You can always reach out to me. My email is super simple GG at king of kingsorg. But yeah, those are it.
Speaker 3:GG One and the only, greg Griffith. This is lead time. Sharing is caring, like subscribe comment. We're approaching a thousand, I think, subscribers on YouTube right now, as a lot of folks are taking taking part in that conversation there. Wherever it is iTunes and Spotify, whatever Comments really do help. The five-star review is helpful too in sharing the word, and so it's a wonderful opportunity to just set up space, kind space, long form podcast space, where multiple different people with multiple different ideas can gather together and hopefully, keeping our eyes firmly fixed upon Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith. It's a good day. Go make it a great day. Thanks Greg, thanks Jack, good work. God bless friends.
Speaker 2:You've been listening to Lead Time, a podcast of the Unite Leadership Collective. The ULC's mission is to collaborate with the local church to discover, develop and deploy leaders through biblical Lutheran doctrine and innovative methods To partner with us in this gospel message. Subscribe to our channel, then go to theuniteleadershiporg to create your free login for exclusive material and resources and then to explore ways in which you can sponsor an episode. Thanks for listening and stay tuned for next week's episode.