Lead Time
Lead Time
WE CONFESS JESUS: The Heart of Lutheranism with Pastor Trevor Sutton
What does it mean to be Lutheran in today's world? Join us on Lead Time as we sit down with Trevor Sutton, senior pastor at St. Luke Lutheran Church in Lansing, Michigan, to explore this question. Discover how confessional Lutheranism stands apart from its more liberal counterparts, and why confessing Jesus and adhering to the authority of scripture remain central. We discuss the theological shifts within Lutheranism over the decades and their far-reaching implications.
Ever wondered if church doctrines should adapt to new trends? We tackle this and more as we examine the practical application of Lutheran confessions, questioning whether they should be treated as unchangeable laws or adaptable guides. From the rise of Pentecostalism to the challenges of online worship, we delve into the concept of a living doctrine that balances tradition with modernity, ensuring faith remains relevant in today's ever-changing landscape.
As we face today's existential dilemmas, our conversation shifts to current societal questions like, "What's the point?" We explore how the grand biblical narrative can offer answers and bring meaning amidst modern nihilism and identity crises. From skepticism towards science to the role of technology in sharing the gospel, we navigate these complex issues, stressing the importance of a distinctive Christian life that fosters hope and truth. Don't miss this compelling episode that blends theological depth with practical insights for navigating faith in a fragmented world.
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This is Lead Time.
Speaker 2:Welcome to Lead Time, Tim Allman, here with Jack Kauberg. It's a beautiful day and I pray you're excited for a Jesus-filled, truth-filled, biblically-based and hopefully joy-filled conversation. I know that's going to be the case today with my new friend Just met five minutes ago, literally Trevor Sutton. Some of you may recognize Trevor. He's written a number of books, including being Lutheran, which I have right here, Kind of a staple work that came out a number of years. What year did being Lutheran come out?
Speaker 3:Maybe eight years ago, something like that I would think, yeah, it seems like yesterday, but it's been a little while.
Speaker 2:Been a minute and I was walking through his book Redeeming Technology. We're going to be talking about that Clearly. Christian is another book he wrote. And then Gene Veith, partnered with Gene Veith man. I remember reading a lot of Veith when I went through the seminary for sure A book called Authentic Christianity. Trevor is a senior pastor at St Luke Lutheran Church, lansing, michigan. They have a couple campuses there. He's been there for 12 years. This is cool, man. First call out of the seminary. Not many guys stay at one place right out of the seminary 12 years and has been now senior pastor for the last three. What a joy to be with you, trevor. How are you doing, man?
Speaker 3:I'm doing great and just super excited for the conversation and looking forward to where it goes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, man, the joy is ours. So first question people have different understandings today about Lutheran. Jack and I have had many a chat over the years about the brand that is Lutheran, especially in the United States of America. Some way cultural, outside of the ground, the lines of scripture kind of culture right along with scripture, can kind of dictate the way we understand Lutheranism, and so with that I mean confessional, conservative Lutheranism kind of took a hit If you go to just a wider mainstream evangelical, if you say Lutheran, it could be seen as theologically liberal and that is unfortunate today. So let's just dig into your comments what is a Lutheran, especially in light of how Lutheranism is viewed in the wider world and here in the United States of America in particular?
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's a great question and as a pastor, you tend to have sometimes like repeating conversations with people. Obviously you have very in-depth, but there's a few stock conversations and I think one of those is oh, you're a pastor, what denomination? I'm Lutheran, oh well, what franchise, or what flavor?
Speaker 3:right. And then suddenly the conversation takes some kind of interesting turns when you go down those different avenues because pretty quickly someone will say, you know, will say, oh okay, I thought you were this, but you're that so clearly, within the North American context, there's a house of many rooms that is Lutheran and those rooms are. Some of them are pretty similar and some of them are very different and radically different. You know, I think, at the heart of it. So, before we kind of get into that, the differences sort of thing, I think at the heart of it, like being Lutheran and obviously, you know, writing a book about it and then speaking on it, you got to kind of wrestle with that question yourself, I think.
Speaker 3:In some way, being Lutheran, you know we have these favorite theme verses that Lutherans love to bring about. One of mine, I think, is actually the words of Jesus in Matthew 16, when he says who do you say that I am? And I think that is just a uniquely Lutheran. Lutherans love that question because Jesus puts the ball on a tee for us and says confess, yeah, confess. And Lutherans love it because it brings two things that we hold dear brings those things together Jesus and confessing who he is. So I think that should be a candidate for a Lutheran theme verse Matthew 16, 15. And so I think, at the end of the day, lutherans are confessing people and even that word confessing has a weird ring people, and even that word confessing has a weird ring.
Speaker 3:A lot of times people hear confessing and it's confessing a sin or confessing a wrongdoing. But to confess, another word I use is proclaim or share or speak, testify, whatever you want to call it. That's what confessing means. Testify, you know, whatever you want to call it like, that's what confessing means. And so we are people who, at our core, in our blood and our DNA, lutherans, confess Jesus, the ways that we confess Jesus, obviously proclamation, evangelism, but on the basis of scripture, right, and so for Lutheran, sola scriptura, what we call the norma normans I always joke with my people like if we're not talking Latin, we're not having fun. So the norma normans, like the ruling rule and scripture, is that rule like what demarcates our confession of Jesus, the word of God, and that sort of thing. So we confess Jesus, we confess scripture, and this sounds redundant, but we confess the confessions, what we call the norma normata, the ruled rule, this thing that's on the basis of scripture, this confession. But then to your question like, okay, how come there's all these different Lutherans If we're all clear on that, what gives right? Clear on that, what gives right?
Speaker 3:I would say this, and here's how I often explain it to folks when you drift on the norma normans or when you drift on scripture, you pretty quickly drift on the norma normata, the confession, and so it's kind of amazing. But, to put it bluntly, I think within the house of Lutheranism in 50 or 60 years there has been more drift in the house of Lutheranism than there has been in other church bodies and us in 500 years. And so it's kind of interesting. We find ourselves theologically closer to some church bodies that split 500 years ago with us than we do with some fellow Lutherans that split 50, 60 years ago, kind of thing. So it's kind of interesting. I guess my point would be where you come down on scripture kind of dictates, how you look as a Lutheran, how you look as a Lutheran.
Speaker 4:So two churches right, Both calling themselves Lutheran, and you go to their service, and in one church they would recite the Apostles' Creed. In another Lutheran church they'd recite the Sparkle Creed.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Right yeah, which is affirming LGBT right and finding an identity and like proclaiming that God is trans and all that stuff.
Speaker 3:right yeah and I think it comes to the question of what is your norm? And I say norm like what is the ruling rule or what is the, the, what's the razor by which you use to adjudicate what's what's truth, what's relevant, what's everything, and um, again, that that's kind of where you come down on foundational things. I often explain it like this, like there's two ways to get lost or to get off course. You can get off course by many degrees in a short amount of time, or you can get off course by a few degrees over a long period of time. But the question is always what is our true north? And for LCMS Lutherans, our true north is confessing Jesus on the basis of scripture and the confessions Right.
Speaker 2:And then, I mean shortly thereafter, we get to how he delivers his grace, the means of grace, obviously. Word then followed by sacrament. We're a sacramental church body. Anything to say about how the sacraments connect to the word Trevor.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I appreciate that. So then this confessing Jesus. What is all that Jesus said and delivered? And Jesus confessed and delivered grace, the grace of God through the cross and the empty tomb. And I think one of the cool things about Lutherans is we have this high view of God's ability to use what I call stuff which is not an bread, wine, water, the most. What would you call it Banal, ordinary things of creation. Key things would be God's ability and desire to use the stuff of creation to assure his people they are loved, forgiven, saved, and his people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, isn't that cool, it's beautiful, it's the best thing ever. Like the simple truths that I learned you learned in confirmation. Catechesis have to. If we miss on the simple things, if we start to veer on, okay, how does he reveal himself to us? Is his word true? Does God lie? He does not lie, so I have to take him at his word in everything. This is truly. I love it. This is truly what it means to be Lutheran, and then we freely share what we have received, we proclaim, and I think this is where we kind of get hung up a little bit today.
Speaker 2:Who does the proclaiming right? The office of the holy ministry, for sure. Yes, pastors proclaim, but I often talk, trevor, like I am modeling for you. This is what Jesus did, right, he modeled, speaking, the things of God, he modeled the rhythms of being with the Father in prayer. So that I'm setting an example. I don't think we talk enough about example as pastors. So as you hear me speak, so in your home, in your various vocations, you move out as a proclaimer. Anything to say between. I think this is the two sides of the same coin, of the mission of God being carried by the office of holy ministry, connected to the priesthood of all believers. Anything to say to add to that Like we must live with this releasing of the word amongst all of the baptized.
Speaker 3:No amen entirely. And the example it's kind of interesting when you talk in terms of example and maybe the pastor as example of professing, but not the exclusive professor, not the exclusive proclaimer. I find it with prayer, and I don't know why, but my people, with prayer, I often hear folks say, boy, pastor, your prayers are so beautiful, pastoral prayers. I can't do that. I'm not as good, you know, as one of those things where I almost it sparks in me this thing of I want our prayers to be. I don't want them to be so intimidating that you feel like my example is impossible to match.
Speaker 3:And I just heard a story recently that was just absolutely beautiful. I was meeting with a family after the death of a loved one and they were telling me this story about a little neighbor, like six years old, that got on FaceTime after finding out that they had passed away or that this loved one had passed away, and this little six-year-old hopped on FaceTime and was praying for the family on FaceTime and it was just, they said, like this is the most beautiful prayer and the most comforting ministry that anyone could provide. And it was a six-year-old's prayer, like it was I'm sure you know syntax all messed up and garbled and everything else, but it was a prayer of faith and earnest trust in Jesus and the hope of life in him. And these people were telling me, like that was such a beautiful prayer and it made me realize like that's awesome and like that's yeah. I guess eloquence should not be the example that we seek to set. How much narrower is the gap?
Speaker 2:between a fallen, broken, ordained pastor and all of the baptized, but people still need examples. So God narrowed that gap and then he raises up leaders and then, hopefully this is what we talk about a lot on Lead Time and through the Unite Leadership Collective is pastors in time, based on respective gifts, mentoring, stewarding, caring for, yes, all of the flock, but also identifying others who can be proclaimers as we launch, as we send them to the seminary or raise them up local, whatever it happens to be. This is a part of our job description. Jesus was so far above and he brought us near. How much more so should those in leadership positions do likewise. So that's so good. All right, I'm going to get into something that I've been wrestling with this man for a minute. I'm excited about this section of the conversation. Dr Chuck Aaron, who I loved, had him at the seminary. Do you have Dr Aaron at the seminary? I did.
Speaker 3:He was actually my Dr Vodder for my PhD thesis.
Speaker 2:Come on. What was your thesis in?
Speaker 3:Dr Vodder for my PhD thesis. Come on, yeah. What was your thesis in?
Speaker 2:It was actually so doctrinal theology, but essentially online worship and trying to make sense of what on earth we do with online worship.
Speaker 2:What do you wish? We're going to have to talk about that too. Okay, so Dr Chuck Aaron in his book Testing the Boundaries to Lutheran Identity it came out in the 90s. It was a second printed edition came out in 2012. One of those books that, unless you're kind of a geek, you're probably not reading because it is a scholastic work. He took a lot of his doctorate work and then he kind of brought it down. It's still.
Speaker 2:If you want to look at the history of the confessions in the United States of American Lutheran context, this is the staple book. So, testing the Boundaries to Lutheran Identity, he talks about the various ways that the Lutheran confessions have been used specifically in the American Lutheran Church, either as a tool toward Protestant consensus so these are the four ways Protestant consensus, catechesis or a teaching guide. That's the second one. The third, and this is the LCMS a doctrinal norm. You talk norma normata et cetera or as a historical document, historical decision-making tool. So how should our view of the Lutheran confessions as a doctrinal norm shape our work together today in the LCMS, trevor?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean Chuck's work on that is great and it really does. What I love about that work is it kind of goes to your first question of like how do we have all these different Lutherans? If we all agree on confessions, how can we get so far adrift from one another? And that's where the thing in his point would sort of be people handle the confessions very differently, is his main thing. So it's not just that we have these, which is, I don't know a little dismaying. Really, right, you can agree on a lot of things that you can agree. We can agree on scripture that is important and the canonical books, and then you can agree on these confessional documents. But then there's another order of operation which is sort of like well, what?
Speaker 3:are these things and like you're kind of saying, like some people see them as a basis by which, if you ascend to them, we can all play in the same sandbox and that sort of thing, or the historical example, just like this is just a starting point to show you how people long ago did this. But it's just a start and again, different Lutherans have viewed them in different ways. But for us, with these doctrinal yeah.
Speaker 4:Well, let me throw this out there Kind of into this conversation. You know one of the things I think about when I hear people entering into discourse about what's confessional or not. It almost sounds like we're making the confessions into a law. Does that make sense?
Speaker 3:Rather, than I think. So when you say a law, what do you mean? Here's a bunch of things that we're saying that we believe.
Speaker 4:Does that make sense? And so then we start to look at each other sometimes and we start to evaluate somebody based on a certain pattern of behavior. How do you do your worship service? How do you do X, y and Z things in ministry? And we're evaluating each other from a confessional basis, but really using the confessions as a sort of law, and so what are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, well, also the question so clearly there's a law function to them that they are normative and evaluative and demarcating truth from heresy and things like that. So there's clearly a function of that. But the way that I find it really helpful, you talk about doctrine and I'm a doctrinal theologian. People's eyes glaze over like, oh my gosh, like I would rather read a tax code um than than doctrine. Not everybody, but a lot of people, that's their first glance, right, um. And so the way that I find it really helpful, um is the idea of uh, thinking about, uh, what they call like the um, uh, corpus doctrina in Latin, but the body of doctrine. And I try to as best I can, how do you maintain the essence of what's being talked about, but put it in contemporary language, so just the body of beliefs, like what is your body of belief? And each church body has a body of belief or a body of doctrine, a corpus doctrina.
Speaker 3:And for us we say, like the Lutheran confessions are the body of doctrine that we confess and have. And I love the idea of thinking about our doctrine as a body, because your body has different organs and the way I explain it to folks is that your organs like are of varying degrees of essentialness to your health and well-being, right, so we can say that your blood or your heart or your brain, different aspects of your body, those are mission critical. And if you get sepsis you will die your toenails. They're important and an ingrown toenail will, will annoy you, but like you may not die quite from that. And so, thinking of our doctrine and like there's clearly in the confessions, talk like this there's varying degrees of of centrality or magnitude. So like ac4 justification, like that's, that's your blood, right, and if, if your understanding of justification gets septic, you're dead and I think, yeah, okay. So so this body of doctrine and and like one of my favorite quotes on on this, is like, um, health is the silence of the organs, and so when your stomach is functioning well, you don't even think about your stomach, you don't think, think about your kidney until you get kidney stones, that kind of thing. And so healthy doctrine is like a healthy body and it's alive and it's vitalized.
Speaker 3:And what I love about that is then, why do Lutherans, lcms, Lutherans in particular why do we care about doctrine? Why do we care about the confessions as a doctrinal norm? Why do we even use this. Sometimes, jack, like you're saying, this is inbounds or out of bounds, healthy or not healthy. I think, at the end of the day, we have to think of it as a living body. And what do living bodies do? They go, they live, they move, they have their being in God, and so our doctrine is always aimed at life, our doctrine is always aimed at going and, I think, in some way evangelism in this world. But a dead body can't go and dead doctrine can't evangelize.
Speaker 4:Right I guess I'm going to throw this out there too is should we think of the confessions as exhaustive? Because when I, when I think about it, right, the context in which it's written, it is people coming together saying we believe this, this is what we believe, and even you know. Look at the languages. This is how we're making distinction from the catholics. This is how we're making distinction from the anabaptists later on with is how we're making distinction from the Anabaptists Later on with the formula we're making distinction with the Calvinists, right. But then new trends emerge in the church, the rise of Pentecostalism, for example. So Pentecostalism isn't necessarily a thing in the time of writing the confessions. So there's not a lot of language in that. If we treat the confessions as an exhaustive document, then we may find ourselves limiting, as as the church trends into different types of theological. You know experiments with different types of theology and we need to ground ourselves right so so try reading the confessions, uh, looking for answers to online worship questions.
Speaker 4:Right, that's, that's gonna be tough right and and so this is where I'm getting at like as a law. Well, because they didn't have online worship, then we can't permit ourselves now because it's not addressed in the confession. Does that make sense?
Speaker 3:Like as a legalistic way of doing that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and absolutely the challenge is and we see other church bodies and this is where, kind of going back, tim, to your point, you know chuck's work and testing the boundaries right, and even his language of the title is like there's boundaries and we have to test them, and it's not as if it's like an electric fence that the second you come close to that zap like yeah, um, but there is a sense in which we can treat the confessions, not exclusively, but we can treat them as here's an example of how faithful people adjudicated the word of God on theological questions. But is it enough to say we don't also need to do the same in our present context? And I think that's a challenge. Like you're right, they are not the confessions. Whatever they are, they are not ossified things that don't also need the interpretive work of what does it now mean in 2024.
Speaker 3:Now, you can get adrift, no doubt, and we've seen Lutheran's different church bodies get adrift on that, and that's where it a boundary, um, and it needs to be tested and clearly, uh, there is that normative function in it. But, um, I think your point is right. Like, again, my example of technology. Like you can find aspects of technology in the confessions. You know simulacra of technology, but you're not going to find any reference to the internet, online worship, social media. So we have to somehow do interpretive work right, yeah, amen.
Speaker 2:So I love your analogy of the metaphor of the body, right, I mean it's all over scripture, it's helpful, and there are times when the church moves on a spectrum, right and we've been doing a lot of thought about this and there's behavior, there's personality, there's the culture. I mean all of those things are kind of meshed into the spectrum of, really you could say, discipleship, which I think clean Lutheran, clean Lutheran you could use even pure doctrine, like we want robust catechesis to take place. But then the other kind of pivoting movement is how and for whom. It's obviously through the word, through good teaching, but then released for the body of Christ.
Speaker 2:And I think from time to time right now we spend so much time and we look at the world and a lot of times doctrine is reactive rather than proactive and sometimes I think we become imbalanced around discipleship conversations, purity conversations, where there needs to be a balancing move toward for the sake of the world, for the sake of proclaiming Christ. And here is innovation, technology, opportunity, adiaphora Is it getting messy? And I think this is where the LCMS is living right now. We're obviously not going to make, we're not going away from scripture, we're not battling over the Bible today. Where the conversation is now is kind of this movement back toward starting churches, how we train up leaders, releasing the priesthood of all believers, et cetera. So anything to say around that in the LCMS context today, trevor, absolutely.
Speaker 3:Just to further torture this body analogy we're working with. I think we can think in terms of health and fitness and like that's a huge thing in our contemporary world, right? Like like big money, big time draw for people, health and fitness and all that. But one of the things like, like I love running, I do tons of distance running, you know ultra marathon kind of stuff. But I have to ask the question like what's it for? Is this, is this for myself? Is this is this for myself? Is this for vanity? Is this so I can live as long as I can possibly live? Is it is my health self-serving or is my health according to my vocations and the needs of my neighbors?
Speaker 3:And I think that's that's a question we can think about health and fitness. But I think we can bring it into this conversation of the health and fitness of our doctrine. What's it for? Is it for myself, so I can be like man? I am optimized in my doctrinal health and wellbeing a hundred percent. I'm going to live as long as I can, you know that kind of thing. Or is is this doctrinal health and well-being in service to the neighbor? And I'm pretty sure the answer is that.
Speaker 2:I would hope so. I would hope so. So let's, let's, let's get specific here a little bit. As you look at the broader landscape of the LCMS, what doctrinal issues should we be addressing and I want you to live in doctrine Should we be addressing more intentionally and a lot of my work, Trevor, was in circuit conversation, circuit collaboration, pastor to pastor, congregation to congregation. So what doctrinal issues should we be addressing intentionally in circuits, districts and as so work, kind of local to national, if you would right now, Trevor, Okay, yeah, I think, yeah.
Speaker 3:So kind of local to national, if you would right now Trevor.
Speaker 3:Okay, yeah, I think yeah, so kind of local to national kind of thing. This is a question I don't have a definitive answer on this but one that's kind of been rattling in my head. A friend of mine asked me this years ago and it's just stuck with me, but his question was what is our most pressing existential question today? What is the question that 10 out of 10 people on the streets in your neighborhood are wrestling with? And I think, jack, this kind of goes to some of your point.
Speaker 3:I think in the 16th century, the most existential, pressing question was am I right with God, yep, or am I saved? Or at least in a church context, that was the question. Justification, yeah, exactly. And so one of my questions would be and again, I don't think I have the most definitive answer on this, but it would be what is our most pressing existential question? And are we assuming that people's most pressing existential question is the same as it was in the 16th century? I'm not entirely convinced that that's accurate Now. It's still. That's not to say okay, ac4, justification, that's not important, not at all. No, it absolutely is. But I think we need to recognize what then is our situation and letting doctrinal exigencies flow out of that. I think our deepest existential question today has got to be like what's the point?
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Which is actually a form of nihilism or what we call like normal nihilism of nihilism or what we call normal nihilism, but just this idea of sort of eat, drink and be merry, this kind of hedonic nihilism sort of thing of what's the point? Is there a point beyond life, now, here and now? And if so, then letting that drive the question. And so I think absolutely we can get to justification questions from there. But we have to back up a little bit, and I think some of the most urgent doctrinal questions are really what are your foundational narratives? What is your bedrock for meaning? What's it all for meaning, um, what's it all for? Yeah, and it's a little hard to answer justification questions um, right away until you um answer or at least address some of those, and that lets you then situate the justification questions um I think the what's the point question is we would say it's identity, right like why am I here?
Speaker 4:right when you say what's identity? Right, like, why am I here? Right when you say what's the point? Like here I am, I'm on the planet, I'm walking, I'm doing stuff, I got a job. You know what is the meaning of all of this Right.
Speaker 3:And identity is kind of who am I, and then what's the point?
Speaker 4:Yeah, Right that fundamentally is an identity statement. What Right that?
Speaker 3:fundamentally is an identity statement. What is your actual true identity? Which the beauty is is that when you actually dig into Lutheranism and Luther and all that stuff, there's like a tremendous amount to say about identity. It just wasn't the debate. The theological resources are there. Why? Because it's predicated on scripture. These are what I call permanently relevant truths. The question is is we just have to make sure that we are ferrying those permanently relevant truths into the contemporary context appropriately and not assuming what mattered to people in different times and places matters to people now, and so it's certainly not novelty in theological confession. It's not coming up with new theologies, but it is the wisdom to know what's the mood in the room and then what word needs to be spoken appropriate to that mood in the room.
Speaker 2:Yes and we yes. So to piggyback, we must teach the macro, master grounding narrative of scripture more today. We can't assume people know the story of creation to recreation. If you look at the confessions there's some assumption regarding a biblical worldview understanding the grounding narrative, and I think we have to start there. And that obviously moves to where do we find ourselves right now in God's grand story. It's the age of the church. Jesus is going to come again. We're called to proclaim and confess and howate ourself in a narrative, our personal and hopefully, if we're tethered to a family narrative, to a community narrative, obviously grounded in in God's macro narrative. Anything to talk about the power of story Trevor.
Speaker 3:Except for amen. No, I mean just the idea that that we are. This is Stanley Hauerwas uses this language and he kind of got this from Watership Down and Richard Adams but the idea that we are a story formed community and just this idea that I guess, yeah, maybe we live in a culture and a society where there used to be more monolithic stories that provided that cohesive narrative for people to anchor their lives on, and now those comprehensive narratives have become micro narratives and they're breaking apart. And so the idea that people are desperately looking for a narrative bigger than themselves because they aren't able to answer that, what's it all for thing? Uh, if, if the answer kind of jack, like if it's identity and your identity is like it's all about me, so like, if the narrative is what's it all for me, like that's not a durable narrative. Yeah, um, and that's a narrative that's going to break down.
Speaker 4:yeah, and cs lewis hit some of that in some of his writings, where he's you know he's contemplating, or he starts off as an atheist and he's sitting there saying you know what is the point, right? Are we just Adams bouncing around in a skull or are we a child of God? Right? That is a radically different way of seeing what is the point. Yeah, yep, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yep, absolutely yeah, and we, we believe this because it's true, because the Bible is true. Jesus is real. Jesus died, rose, ascended. He's going to come back to make all things new. Can't wait until that day comes. And he is. He is truth, he is, he is clarity, he is the way, the truth and the life. I love your book. Clearly Christian Following Jesus in an Age of Confusion Came out in 2018. Read it Super accessible read. But then I got to thinking oh, my goodness, how far have we spiraled in the last five to six years since that book came out? So what cultural change? You look at the wider world. What cultural change since 2018, we're living in a profound age of confusion. What's most shocked you since you wrote that book?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think the one that's most shocked me wouldn't be the most obvious, but I think it's the one behind all the other shocking things, and this is not going to be the most exciting way to describe it, but it has to do with epistemology, and epistemology is knowledge Like how do you know, what do we know and how do we know it? And I think we are in the midst of an epistemological crisis that's just speeding up, and you can call it, you know, post-modernity or liquid modernity there's several different names for it A post-truth age. I think people talk about that, but it's just this idea that we have no idea what we know or how we know it.
Speaker 2:Culturally, yes, and then what happens?
Speaker 3:then, is like yeah, we just have no idea.
Speaker 4:Well, science has failed on many levels.
Speaker 3:Well, and that's what's kind of crazy. Yeah, exactly, it's like there used to be. Yeah, and that was kind of modernity, if the modern age is all about science.
Speaker 4:Well, you've got World War I, World War II, where they used science to commit mass murder, right Yep. And to justify racism on the basis of science. That's Darwinism, right, Yep. So science has failed us.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no exactly. And so we were able to cannibalize or metabolize the authority of science for a little while. After all that, there was still some fat on the bones to metabolize, but I think even that's kind of gone in a lot of ways. And so if I had to guess, um, today we we live in a strange like. Our epistemology is a strange combination of, like, personal intuition and tribalism, um, and so it's sort of like I know I know how do I know?
Speaker 3:Because it feels right and my tribe says so yeah, and that's just a weird place to be.
Speaker 3:And that's an identity right, yeah, sure, exactly, and I think that's the skeleton key that kind of unlocks all of those other shocking cultural changes. And so just you know and like, for example here's a way I kind of describe it to folks you know, like what do they say? Like a picture is worth a thousand words, right. But suddenly, in the realm of like AI and deep fakes and generative AI, that statement that has been helpful for us for a really long time, that is no longer like it's laughable, right.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And so I think that just shows this, this crisis that I'm talking about, that. Just how do you know? Seeing is no longer believing, right yeah?
Speaker 2:And I mean to to get like super practical. I think this is a place where we in the LCMS should have a more united conversation about the role of the family the role of mother and father.
Speaker 2:The fourth commandment, the gender confusion that's going on today. I think there's a number of folks because I'm a large church pastor or whatever right, and a lot of times we kind of were critical maybe of President Harrison a decade ago or so, as he's talking demographic shift and birth rates and all of those types of things, but it's actually real and we're seeing it right now, and I don't think it's a. This is a statement that pastors should say. It's a, it's a. This is a statement that pastors should say Get, if the Lord calls you to find a spouse, a Lutheran spouse. Get married, and younger is okay, you're going to figure it out together.
Speaker 2:I got married at 22 and just celebrated 20 years. Right, younger, and then have kids and raise them up to fear and love the Lord. Is it a messy thing? You don't have to have all of your life figured out, financially, et cetera. Have kids, raise them up to love the Lord. I mean, this is how demographics, over and culturally, over the next generation, two, three things could shift back, as people look at the wackiness, the confusion, the chaos in our world and say that's just, that's just not working. The tendency, though, could be to throw up the walls. A Christian commune? No, no, no, no, no. We're in the world. We're not of the world, but we're definitely in the world and we're for the world. The gospel is for the world, but we're also going to be very strong in saying we live differently. We are a people who are set apart for love and good deeds. And the attack right now, the confusion I think it's a satanic attack directly against the foundation of the family. Anything more to say about that confusion around the family? Trevor?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think one of the things would be how do we live in such a way family, marriage in our vocations, all of these things how do we live in such a way that people can't help but say who do you know, what do you know? And that sort of thing, and that is a form of evangelism, but I think it's again. I know I've mentioned Hauerwas already, but he talks about living with the grain of the universe and it's one of those beautiful things where, like man, if God's word is truth and reality and the bedrock of creation, and it's not good for man to be alone, and therefore God made the institution of marriage and family and the community of the church, like all of these things, that's the grain of the universe. They're imperfect in a fallen, broken world, but if that's the grain of the universe, that's captivating, that's enticing, it's beautiful, it's good and I think it prompts people to say tell me more.
Speaker 2:Who do you know? Let me tell you the one who knows me, yeah, who do you know? Let me tell you the one who knows me, yeah, who's made sense of this thing called the wackiness and the chaos of of a confused world. He's brought order to my chaos because he, he knows me, he sees me, he's for me, he loves me, and let me tell you what he's done for me through the gospel. Amen, dude. So, whatever it takes, a lot of times we throw out the word. Like Paul, he became all things to all people, so that all possible means we might win some. We're moving to the technology conversation now. How should we think about technology? There was a great debate during COVID right about online communion and things like that. How should we think about technology in sharing the gospel? Love to hear your words of wisdom, especially given this is your doctorate too. Man, this is cool. How long you got right? Uh, no, yeah, like five to 10 minutes on this. I got a few other things, but yeah, okay.
Speaker 3:I'm joking, yeah, we'll, we'll distill it down, um, yeah, so I think, to answer it concisely, this won't be the whole, the whole conversation, but but when it comes to technology, and especially proclamation or evangelism, or being confessional through technological means, right, any of those things, I think one of the things that has been super eye-opening for me is this is what does media do? And this comes from Marshall McLuhan but media extends, and so media allows the extension of something. So think of it like this you have the water treatment facility and you have your faucet, and the pipe is the media by which it goes from one to the other, and it extends the reach of the water treatment facility to your faucet. So that's kind of a way you can think about it. And so digital media what does it do? It extends part of us, but not all of us, and so, for instance, like it's always helpful when we're doing something like this, this is extending our voices and our visual senses, but not like the chemical senses, so nobody can smell us, taste or the tactile not so much. So, like, what's happening here is, some of you is being delivered, but not all of you is being delivered, which is kind of an interesting, weird thing. And so that lets us say like something real is being delivered, right, like I have learned so much from podcasts, I've learned so much and been so comforted by sermons that I've heard online and things like that. So something is absolutely happening.
Speaker 3:But it's not what philosophers have talked about with this. It's not a common sense experience, and what I mean by common sense is the communion of the senses. It's not a full sensory experience. So it's like, think of it like this, like a picture of a hug versus getting a hug, right, like there's something being delivered in there, but like there's a whole big difference in that sense there's, there's something being delivered in there, but like there's a whole big difference in that sense, um.
Speaker 3:And so this idea that, like, absolutely we can see technology, um, being a tool for proclamation of the gospel, um, but this idea that that in that process, and even scripture talks like this, um, I have uh, this is a first and second, john, right. Like I have more to write to you with pen and paper, but I'd long to see you face to face, that our joy might be complete. And so it's kind of weird. Even the epistles talk in this terms of like something's being delivered, the word of God, but boy, wouldn't it be nice if we could just be together. And so that's not to say technology has no place or purpose. But then the question is is what then do we do with it? Technology has no place or purpose, but then the question is is what then do we do with it?
Speaker 3:And I think the way that I've kind of thought through this myself is this is very pragmatic and practical.
Speaker 3:But, given everything I just said, the more direct and personal our use of technology can be, the better.
Speaker 3:So I was working with Our Church Body on the CTCR and they're doing some work on digital technology stuff and I just gave them some extreme examples of like imagine generative AI writing a sermon for somebody in the metaverse, you know, with an avatar that you don't know who they are or what Like. That would be the farthest extreme of impersonal generic the word proclaimed but we don't know to who that is or what, their situation and whatever, as opposed to you getting on Zoom or FaceTime with a friend and share it specific to their situation. Or you know, this is a big thing for the Lutheran, theologians, luther and so forth, but the idea of like for you and that idea of like, like for you, this, this, not this objective thing, but subjective, like this is God's word for you thing, but subjective, like this is God's word for you. And so that'd be kind of my guiding, in a nutshell, you know, recognizing how can we leverage technology as directly and personally as possible.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I think technology like, let's say, social media platforms, they can create an illusion that you have more friends than what you really have.
Speaker 3:Right, you know I can go on there Friends than you really have, According to there.
Speaker 4:Then you're like 600 and so many friends, but these are not people that I would call on in times of need. The ideal friend is somebody like if you've got a crisis at 2am and you need to call somebody.
Speaker 4:that's really what a friend is Right, and so, in a sense, like technology can create the illusion that you have friends, but in reality you're becoming more isolated, and that's probably not necessarily well. It can be a theological issue. It's a societal issue, definitely that we're dealing with, but I think you know, there's something beautiful about the idea that God is calling us to gather not just to have an online chat right, but to actually gather in person with each other and actually lay hands on somebody and pray. Online chat right, but to actually gather in person with each other and actually lay hands on somebody and pray with them, right.
Speaker 2:Technology is helpful in building allies, people who have a common language that can be shared to go on mission, but it can't build confidants, the deep, deep, close and there's a lot of work that's gone on between turning an ally into a confidant. We may have way more. We're gonna have way more allies, partners Like Trevor, I would count you an ally, but we're just getting to know one another right. I mean to share the deeper things in my life. I better have a number of people in my community, face-to-face, laying hands, prayer time, and this is what the local church is for. You cannot duplicate via technology, face-to-face, life-on-life, the tears, the emotions. I'm here with you, I'm for you. There is something that's remarkably incarnational about the church that technology cannot duplicate, and I'm not going to put you on the spot here, I'm just going to say it.
Speaker 2:There have been a number of brothers who made a really, really, I think, trying to be faithful in volatile times, which is COVID, meaning people need the tangible forgiveness of sins through the body and blood of Jesus. And we did not make I'll just speak for self we did not make the choice to go virtual with communion. We did drive through communion, you know, which was strange but received really, really well. I mean just seeing the emotions of people. I haven't seen you, pastor, or been at my church for a couple months. We didn't stay close for too long. But, man, it is so good to be here. Take and eat, take and drink the body and blood of Jesus for you.
Speaker 2:And so I will tell folks today, like, why do we gather it's hard to do Lord's Supper? Well, we don't do it online. So you need the body and blood of Jesus for the gospel delivered specifically for you. So I'm not even going to get into the debate online. There's a lot that's been written and spoken about it. I just personally, in our context being a large church, we made and still make the case people need in-person Lord's Supper. So what's the difference? I love your and I don't remember which book it was, as we're kind of we'll go back up to 30,000 feet as we kind of close. Here you talk and I don't know if it was clearly Christian or whatever, but I found it really interesting to talk about the difference between judging and scrutinizing. Go into the difference between what it means to judge and scrutinize, trevor.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so that's one of those things we hear about judging in scripture and Jesus warns against judging, but then clearly, you know, the prophetic role is also proclaiming judgments, Right, and so it's this weird, this weird thing of like well, which is it Right and so trying to it was it was in weird thing of like well, which is it Right and so trying to it was it was clearly Christian. Trying to to tease out some of those differences. And I think if we look at scripture, if we look at how scripture talks about judging, I would say that judging is a final pronouncement and it is a condemnation pronouncement and it is a condemnation and at the end of the day, we are not situated in a spot where we are able to do either of those things final pronouncements and condemnation because we don't know human hearts, we don't know the future, we don't know the mind of God in that ability to speak, a final pronouncement or condemnation on someone, but then scrutinizing would be the way I talk about. It is speaking on behalf of the judge or or using God's judgments to discern good from evil, right from wrong and then speak on behalf of that. The $10 term for this I don't talk about in the book, but it's deputized discourse and what that means is like a member of a jury gets to say like guilty, but that person is not making that pronouncement on his or her own behalf. It's deputized by the judge, by the courts, by the team of jurors, to speak that word.
Speaker 3:And so I think that that helps me and I hope, helps other people. Like we don't sit in the place of God, but we can speak what God has spoken. And so sometimes I hear people say like don't judge me, which is another way of saying like you can't say anything about me, my life, what's good, what's bad, what's right, what's wrong. That's what we're trying to say with that. Sometimes we do the opposite, where we truly do condemn and pronounce final pronouncements on people when we really don't have that ability. And so I think it's just this idea like God does not call us to judge, but that God does call us to speak on behalf of the judge, and there's a huge difference there and that's a filter for knowing what to say and what not to say. In some way, this is the office of the keys, right? I mean this is entirely the office of the keys, where it is not our job to enact the judgment, but it is our job to announce the judgment Right.
Speaker 4:Hmm.
Speaker 2:That's that's so good. Connect that to the way Christians, lutherans, should speak today. And I have to get slower because we're moving into politics here. I'd love to get your take on the role of the two kingdom theology in our remarkably polarized political context today. Trevor, judging and scrutinizing you can use that or other kind of handles if you'd like.
Speaker 3:Yeah, as far as the judging and scrutinizing, I'd have to think more of how do we apply that? Clearly, I think there is a connection, but you know, two kingdom. Theology recognizes just for folks, if they're not super clear on it that we are dual citizens. We are citizens within the kingdom of God and you could say the church and we are citizens within a nation state, a sovereign, an earthly kingdom. And the thing that's often not recognized is God rules over both.
Speaker 3:Yes, and I think what I find very simplistically is that what often happens is we sacrifice one of our citizenships over and against the other, so we say this earthly kingdom is all that matters and it's out of control. Therefore, I have to, you know, tooth and claw, whatever I can regain power or prove someone wrong or this or that, and I think what happens there is you're holding on to the earthly citizenship over and against the citizenship in the kingdom of God and you're forgetting that God's over all of it. The other side, I think, is like a form of like apathy, where it's sort of like you know what, like God's got this. I'm just like whatever.
Speaker 3:I don't care about my earthly citizenship, like just let it burn, no big deal, and that's not biblical either. And so it is this dual citizenship. And that's not biblical either. And so it is this dual citizenship.
Speaker 3:I pastor at a church where we have a lot of refugees and a lot of folks from Africa. So I have a lot of people who have like dual citizenship on an earthly sense and I guess you might say like triple citizenship in the biblical sense, but they're always navigating this thing of concern for the motherland and concern for where they live now. And I think that helps me understand. What does it mean to be invested in our citizenship that is, in heaven and the kingdom of God, and invested in our earthly citizenship? And I guess what I like in that sense is if we recognize God's in control overall, god's in control. We can live in a world that's out of control, but we can also then lean into a world that's out of control with a non-anxious presence, knowing God's in control, and that's the key thing. So it's like it's not leaning out, it's not leaning in with anxiety and fear, and this is the only whack I got, but it sets the basis for a healthy engagement.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love that. This is the middle way of Jesus. This is a Lutheran tension filled now and not yet, is probably another handle we can. We can have that. Jesus is Lord overall. Jesus is still present here with us, and so the way we talk about current political divisive issues, like the gender conversation, abortion, whatever it happens to be, we talk about it with truth, with love, but with profound hope.
Speaker 2:And so I think the preacher's call today is to elevate this is the metanoia kind of to elevate people's minds and hearts above the fray of the problem today so that they can to use another metaphor, they can look from the balcony with Jesus who is above, and then look at the things and think about not just what they say but their posture, the how they live in the world, not with anxiety, fear, divisive, you know, or party politics, or labeling of a person. They're just going to kind of enter back down into the world as a light bringer, a joy giver, rather than a condemner, and one who is just constantly like I don't think Lutherans should be, we shouldn't be apathetic, but like angry Lutheran, I don't think that should be a posture of our leaders, et cetera. We know the grand narrative and we know how Jesus is delivering himself to us consistently through the means of grace. So just, I think that it's a call to pastors we can talk about issues, but don't let the issue be the issue. The primary issue is sin. Satan is having a heyday, the world is broken and we have a Savior entered down into it and still wants to enter down into it to remind us of his redemptive love.
Speaker 2:Anything more to add to that, Jack? Jack and I did a Christianity and politics kind of two-day seminar. You know 30, 40 people attended. We even had a local politician come and kind of talk about his, a former pastor come and kind of talk about his role in now the State House of Representatives, etc. And it was fascinating, jack. Any kind of takeaways?
Speaker 4:from that experience, I'm thinking about good old Luther, right. Yeah, I mean I'm thinking about good old Luther, right, because sometimes he'd be very harsh in his language to people and say, hey, you know this group of people, they're damned right, and it's important to put that into context. You know the way that we see it is to exist. I mean the moment you're born into this world. We're all sinners. We're born into condemnation. Right To exist without the gospel in your ears, to not have that trust in God, is to be condemned. That's where you are right now.
Speaker 4:It's not saying this is where you're going. Only God knows that we can fully trust God to do whatever he wants to do with a person. It's almost like a diagnosis this is where you are and this is not where we want you to stay. It's like saying, hey, you're drowning right now and we don't. You know, take this life raft right, this is being given to you. Take it right Because you're drowning, and so that is really kind of like the language when we talk about you know, when we really think about law, you know how does the law kill us.
Speaker 4:It helps you realize you're drowning right now. You are drowning. You are condemned and apart from the gospel. We don't want you to stay there. God doesn't want you to stay there. Take this life graph that God is offering you and cling onto it tightly. So, yeah, that's the way I've been thinking about it lately. It's not about where a person is going, it's about where they are right now, and we don't like, if anything, it should cause our hearts to pour out for people to know that they are existing, that they have an existence apart from God, apart from the grace of God, and that they're right now, in this moment, drowning and they need to be rescued Right.
Speaker 2:Amen, so this has been so much fun. Trevor, last questions You've spent a lot of time in apologetics. What is the nature of Lutheran apologetics today? Because I think when a lot of folks hear apologetics arguing, people into the faith could be. I know that's not your approach at all, but what is the role of apologetics connected to evangelism today and sharing the gospel? Trevor?
Speaker 3:I'm sure experts in apologetics would argue that I abuse it horribly, my definition of it. But I think, just like you're saying, I think apologetics is more than just defending that. Apologetics is in the realm of communication, articulation and even embodiment. I think I get that straight from scripture, you know 1 Peter, 3, 15 and 16. We always stop short on that, which is kind of frustrating, but it's, you know, always be prepared to make a defense for anyone who asks for the reason. So that's clearly the defending, the, the, the, the defense. But then do it with gentleness, with respect, having a good conscience, so that you're not slandered, or so when you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior are put to shame, Like it's. It's clearly.
Speaker 3:Again, people can say I'm totally wrong on this, but I think apologetics is there's a spoken apologetics or a rational apologetics and then there's a lived apologetics, and that lived apologetics especially they go in tandem. But it's kind of in things we've talked about already. But this sense in which the way you handle the hardest things in life, the way you interact with other people, the way you approach divisive issues and political upheaval and all those things living in such a way that people say, hey, what's the reason for the hope you have. And that is, a lot of times our embodiment precedes our speaking and a lot of times we think that the apologetics is our speaking first, and I think it's kind of cliche. But they don't care how much you know till they know how much you care. And that idea of just like in the realm of apologetics, the classical proofs and theorems that we have for apologetical discourse have a place, but so does that compelling life that is lived following Jesus. That prompts people to say you have hope. I'd like to know more.
Speaker 2:Yeah, amen. Is there a work that you wrote of your books and or others that you would recommend if people want to go deeper in apologetics?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so clearly Christian. That is an apologetics book and it's certainly not an apologetics book in the sense of taking you through different theorems I have some of those in there, but it really is. It's an apologetics book in the sense of if we live in a confused world and if people are confused about who Jesus is and what it means to be a follower of Jesus, then I think apologetics is being clearly Christian in word and in embodiment. So that'd be a book that, at least, if people are wondering, tell me more about this Trevor. That would be a book that, um, at least if people are wondering, kind of, you know, tell me more about this Trevor. That would be a place where I'd send them.
Speaker 2:Cool, I love it. Man, if people want to connect with you, how can they do so?
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's a good question. Uh, I have a website. Uh, a Trevor Suttoncom would be a good place to get started. Uh, and that's where I have my different um books are available there Different. And that's where I have my different books are available there, different articles. I've written ways to get in touch with me that way.
Speaker 2:Love it, man. Well, keep writing, keep influencing, keep being faithful in your local context. I'm a strong fan of guys that are, and this is one of our approaches. We need more practitioners who are speaking into the wider conversation. Today I'm a practitioner at Grassroots and thank you for being also a pastor to pastors and helping to steward the gospel for the sake of the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod and beyond. This has been so much fun. This is lead time. Great work, Jack. Sharing is caring Like, subscribe, comment wherever it is. You take this in and we pray we continue to have more Jesus-filled, joy-filled, entrepreneurial, confessing Lutheran conversations, moving forward with wonderful, wonderful pastors and leaders. Just like Trevor Sutton, it's a good day. Go make it a great day. Good work, Trevor, Good work Jack. God bless.
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