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From ELCA to LCMS: Navigating Lutheran Challenges with Rev. Dr. Robin Dugall | HOT TOPIC FRIDAY!
Reverend Dr. Robin Dugall takes us on a compelling journey through his transition from the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America (ELCA) to the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod (LCMS). Facing challenges within congregations that he felt were veering away from foundational principles, Reverend Dugall’s narrative offers an intimate glimpse into his personal experiences and the broader implications for Lutheranism in America. This episode unpacks how the evolving association with liberal teachings has influenced the perception of Lutheranism and what it could mean for the future of the denomination in the United States.
In our deep dive into the essence of Lutheran identity, we highlight the critical balance between maintaining theological purity and ensuring missional effectiveness. Reverend Dugall elucidates the significance of standing firm on the truth of God's revelation through Jesus Christ while being guided by the Holy Spirit to speak truth with love. We tackle current cultural trends, the dangers of aligning too closely with these trends, and the importance of leading with Jesus rather than denominational identity to remain relevant and effective in our mission.
Finally, Reverend Dugall shares poignant anecdotes about sharing faith in a post-Christian culture, underscoring the need to focus on Jesus over denominational differences. We explore the transformative identity of believers, proactive church leadership, and the vital role of discipleship. Through stories and practical advice, Reverend Dugall encourages a return to the simple, profound truths of the gospel, emphasizing the power of the Holy Spirit in fostering vibrant church communities. Join us for an insightful discussion on embracing Lutheran identity and mission in today’s world.
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Welcome to Lead Time. A Hot Topic Friday. Tim Allman, here I pray. The joy of the Lord is your strength. As we get the privilege today of learning with one of my brand new friends, We've been having some email conversation. I'm like, oh man, your story needs to be shared. We need to unite in mission to make Jesus known.
Speaker 1:This is Reverend Dr Robin Dougal. Am I saying that right, Robin? Yep, you got it, Dougal. Love it, love it. Let me tell you a little bit about him. He left the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America in 2003, had some time in the LCMC and then came into the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod via Colic. What year was that? Was it 2010? Did I read that right 2010,? Yep, 2010,. So have been a part of the Missouri Synod over some time. Has a broad range of experience in a variety of different contexts over 50 years of leadership in the local church, Praise be to God. He also is on the faculty. We were talking about the changing dynamics in higher ed. He's been an adjunct professor for some years at Azusa Pacific there in LA. So we're going to have a great time today, Robin. How are you doing, brother?
Speaker 2:I'm doing fine. Thanks for having me, Tim. Hey, this is great.
Speaker 1:Three topics, 10 minutes each. Start the clock, adam. Now here we go. Do you think the brand of Lutheran Robin Lutheran I'm quoting Lutheran here has been irreparably damaged because of our association with liberal teachings, and I've seen a lot of this change the liberal teachings of the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America. I would love to get your take on the brand which is Lutheranism, specifically here in the US.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, when you sent me some of the questions, I had a chance to think a little bit about that. I mean, what's a brand? A brand is what? A way of distinguishing between your product or your service or what you're trying to do from other types of services that are out there in the marketplace. And so, you know, when I think about Lutheranism, I always think about Lutheranism as an adjective, not as a noun, and so it describes what type of Jesus follower or what type of Christian we are. It's meant to be a descriptor, not so much something that's a foundational type of aspect of who we are. It's foundational in a way. But again, it's an adjective, it's descriptor. And so, you know, over the years of my life and you know I've been kind of in and out in many respects of not just the LCMS but the ELCA was something I had to adapt to and adopt to, because when I got ordained I went to actually went to that seminary in Berkeley a long time ago because my home church was going to be very generous with me and support me in seminary. Home church was going to be very generous with me and support me in seminary. My pastor was at the time on the board of PLTS Pacific Lutheran Theological Seminary in Berkeley and he said we'd love to be able to pay your seminary for you, but you'll go to the seminary that we'd like you to go to. So I said no problem, walk away with four years and get a chance to be able to do ministry. I'm in Well.
Speaker 2:At the time I was ALC and ALC had a lot of great, you know, spiritual depth and character, had a long, faithful history and, even though I'd grown up, missouri Synod again this is a longer part of the story of mine that I don't necessarily want to get into I found myself gravitating to the ALC when we had moved to California as a family and I felt at home there. We had moved to California as a family and I felt at home there. But in the mid 80s the LCA came into existence and I saw immediately, as a senior pastor of a sizable church in Utah, that we're going to be heading in a direction that I wasn't going to be able to ascribe to. In fact, I was appointed to a board of ministry for the entire church within the first year that the LCA came together and it became very clear that the agenda that was going to be set by the LCA was going to be not just set, but it was going to be imposed upon the local congregation as actually the new church began to take shape and take form and start being instituted within local congregational settings. So I kind of had a red flag right away in the mid-80s that the LCA was going to be going off the rails. And also I had some experience in the Episcopalian church when I was in college because actually one of my local church ministry experiences was I was a youth director, a youth kind of a youth quasi-past pastor in the Episcopalian church for two years, and so I had a chance to be able to work in more of a charismatic kind, of a renewal type of Episcopalian church, but still working with a priest who was waving red flags about where Episcopalianism was going.
Speaker 2:And so in 2003, after being involved in the LCA for a number of years, the other pastor, the co-pastor, and I got to a place where we really did believe that the LCA was going off of a cliff and we found ourselves as a congregation being very much distinguished, not just in terms of our ministry style and what we were doing in terms of our mission as a congregation, but we found ourselves distancing ourselves from the core of what the denomination was doing. And so it was right, after I left the church, the LCA, to go into academia in 2003, that the congregation I was serving left the church and went into the LCMC. So the two last churches I served in the ELCA both left the ELCA and went to the LCMC. A lot of that had to do with the influences that I was able to bring to the congregation, but a lot of it had to do with the congregation just seeing that the ELCA had not necessarily gone faithfully into the brand of Lutheranism that they felt comfortable with. And so, to really go back to your original question, the ELCA has moved, not so much doctrinally as much as they've moved ethically, away from the core of what we believe as foundational within the faith, christianity as a whole.
Speaker 2:What I would regard as the non-negotiables I think I would say primarily most of the LCA pastors and churches that I'm aware of, they, you know, when it comes to the creedal understanding of our faith I don't think they're, you know're negotiating on that adopted in terms of how they encourage people to live their lives of faith, have actually separated themselves from what many of us other Lutheran Christians believe really means for us to be able to live faithfully according to what the scriptures tell us about in terms of following Jesus as his disciples. So you know the brand has been, you know the Lutheran brand has been damaged because of the radical diversity of what Lutheranism is and that adjective. It just isn't understood from a confessional perspective anymore. And I think personally and this is something that you and I were emailing about I think the average person and I look at everything from a mission perspective, mission-driven perspective the average person on the street, so to speak, doesn't understand denominationalism, and so we can kind of either be excited or we can grieve, whatever our emotional reaction is to the damaged brand of Lutheranism. We might have a lot of angst about it, but really it's irrelevant for a majority of what we see going on around us culturally, especially again, from a mission perspective.
Speaker 2:So you know I think you got yeah, we could, we could, we could bemoan the integration of liberalism and liberal thinking within the LCA.
Speaker 2:But you know the LCA has got its own issues and as far as I'm concerned, in studying a little bit of this and by no means am I an expert at it, but there are a number of mainline denominations that are not going to be around within 15 to 25 years, and the LCA is probably going to be one of those, because they've distanced themselves from.
Speaker 2:I think, what the two of us would agree on, and probably a lot of your listeners, is the power and relevance of the gospel and the transformational lifestyle that the Bible and scriptural truth is calling us to live in the power of God's spirit, in terms of distinguishing ourselves over against culture and living by the leadership of a king who's the king of a kingdom, that's the kingdom of God versus the kingdom of culture. So I think the LCA has of God versus the kingdom of culture. So I think the LCA has aligned itself with the kingdom of culture, not so much aligned itself with the truth and the relevance and the power, the presence and obviously the communicated truth through scripture, of the kingdom of God.
Speaker 1:That's so well said. We're doing a series on Daniel and what it looks like to be living in exile and still holding to for Daniel. You know your Jewish values underneath the authority of the one true God, yahweh.
Speaker 1:And yet you know, jeremiah has things here as well. Their perspective is, you know, in the welfare of the city you'll find your welfare. So there's such a tension filled and Richard Niebuhr, obviously in Christ and Culture, spoke a lot to this. I mean, what is our posture as we engage the world? We stand on the solid truth of who God is and how he's revealed himself in the person and work of his son, and then we're sent out with the comforter and the counselor, which is the Holy Spirit, to speak the truth and to have it seasoned with salt, that we would be a winsome witness in the way that we love and care for one another and that we would recognize all of the gifts of the body of Christ and all of the gifts within the confessing church. Because we have to have other qualifiers.
Speaker 1:Now, right, we're a confessing confessional church body, the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, and therefore people are kind of watching how we care for one another and how we love and challenge one another.
Speaker 1:And to get to the LCMS now we see some trends that because culture has gone so far this way and because really the ELCA has gone well, as culture goes, so goes our interpretation of scripture, that's obviously not something we can subscribe to. But then in the LCMS we've kind of had this reverse trend that we're signifying ourselves, symbolizing ourselves on various external things to show ourselves as more righteous and holy and we're really straining gnats and even hurting ourselves in our collegial conversation one to another, in our various contexts. I'm just praying for more charity, more care, more kindness centered on Scripture and the Lutheran confessions, which is a true exposition of Scripture, which doesn't allow us to fall off the rails either toward Phariseeism, legalism or, on the other extreme, toward becoming a heretic and saying things more or less than what Scripture has said. This is the best part of what it means to be a, a Lutheran, and I love that is. It is an adjective, um, but I'm Lutheran because it's a true exposition of scripture. Which what focuses us on Jesus right.
Speaker 1:Person and work of Jesus focuses us on the gospel, a gospel of grace, um, for for the world. Jesus died for the world. So thank you for your story and for engaging in that conversation. It's not over, that is for sure.
Speaker 2:One thing to add on that, Robin, before you move to the next topic Go ahead, I just going to say that you know, I've done a lot of study and I pray you have too, and I pray that every one of your listeners does as well.
Speaker 2:They really should do a lot of study on post-Christendom and the post-Christendom reality, because denominationalism is a Christendom reality and post-Christendom is telling us that you cannot lead with tribe any longer.
Speaker 2:You have to lead with Jesus, and I think that people understanding us within culture from a missional perspective need to understand us as followers of Jesus, not necessarily followers or subscribers or ascribers to a particular tribe, even as important as a tribe is. I mean, I would never diminish our tribe and I love our tribe and I love our church, I love our senior pastor and the staff that we embrace within our particular context here in Loveland, colorado. But you know, if we fall into the pit of theological or even practical elitism or arrogance, we're going to be in big trouble because when it comes to mission, none of those questions are relevant. None of those questions are relevant and I think it depends upon again how we define the church. If the church is defined by theological purity versus missional effectiveness, we've got a problem and we're going to be on the fast track then toward irrelevance or even closure in the future as well.
Speaker 1:Well, that's so well said. Agree, the reason I have to use Lutheran confessions? This is insider language, Robin.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, yeah exactly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean I'm not going to lead with my pagan or atheist you know, universalist neighbor. I'm not going to lead with it. I'm going to lead with Jesus. What are your thoughts about Jesus? I just had a great conversation. My car battery died yesterday. That happens in Arizona quite frequently.
Speaker 1:Oh, I can imagine yeah, yeah, and this guy, aaa, he comes and we just have a conversation. He grew up Catholic, disenfranchised Catholic. The church hates on me. I've been kicked out of church. He's saying this what do you think about Jesus, was a question I asked. Oh, I really love Jesus. I really love Jesus. What happened that the church couldn't be? We should just get back to the simple truth, the profound truth, if not simplistic, that God loved the world so much that he sent his only son that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. And God did not send his son. Is the church condemning? God did not send his son into the world to condemn Lutheran.
Speaker 1:Stop condemning one another and just focus on the great work of Jesus. All right, we went a little over, but that was so much fun, Robin. All right. Second, question. I always do. What is the perspective of many people outside the church and you kind of leaned into this, toward denominationalism and on what do you base your perspective? Anything more to say on that? This may happen to be a little bit shorter, but we need to focus on Jesus. Just go deeper there in terms of denominationalism.
Speaker 2:You just gave a great anecdotal example about the fact that it's all about relationships, and you know I am not. I mean, even though I've got a oh, I got a little bit of a academic part of me. There really is more of a pastoral Jesus follower, disciple DNA about what I embrace in my own personal life, and so it's all about relationships with me, and so I will personally spend a good portion of my day every single day. Number one asking God what is he doing out in the community and where can I join him. Number two, going out and just having conversations with people in regular places that I hang out. You know, the same coffee shops, the same bagel store, the same grocery stores, the same bagel store, the same grocery stores, the same place. And so I'm basing my assessment on denominationalism by having very practical conversations with people about what it means to have a life of faith, whether I want to pray for them or whether I want to talk to them about Jesus or whether I just listen to them and their story. I'm not hearing anybody talk about any particular denomination when it comes to aspects of walking or knowing who Jesus is. They want to know about the relevance of the gospel and when it comes to brands and when it comes to specific tribes, they're not as interested because they don't understand it. And so, you know, we'll talk in my conversations, we'll talk about life and we'll talk about what it means to be able to integrate our lives into the story of the gospel and what the redemptive power of the gospel can be in a person's life, as well as what it means to be able to follow Jesus, be in a person's life as well as what it means to be able to follow Jesus. But you know, it all has to do with that's the part of what I'm seeing on a day-to-day basis, conversation-to-conversation basis.
Speaker 2:People are interested in, and again, denominationalism for most people I try to describe it when I'm doing classes or seminars or whatever is basically denominationalism is white noise it's. You know, people drive by churches all the time and they wouldn't understand what a Lutheran church is over against a Christian church or a congregational church or a Methodist church or so. They're just names on a billboard and unless there's a relationship that they have with an individual within that particular tribe or within that particular congregation, they may not know any distinctive that would be even interesting or even attractive to them to be able to investigate. So you know, again, I don't have any hardcore evidence from personal study. I wish I did, I wish I would. You know if I? I guess if I had to do another degree in this season of my life I'd probably be really interested in something like that.
Speaker 2:But most people's perspective about denominationalism is that it's completely irrelevant. Because for a lot of people who are non-Jesus following people, the churches are relevant. I mean, faith is irrelevant. They're just trying to get through the day. They're trying to make money. They're trying to be able to see if they can ever afford to buy a home. They're trying to be able to deal with economics, the divisiveness within culture. Politically they're just kind of dealing with things as things are happening and they're not asking questions about what does that Lutheran church down the street believe that's good.
Speaker 1:As a teacher of the word, robin, and you read the book of Acts, I know you've taught a lot in the New Testament. You read the book of Acts and you read the epistles pastoral epistles even too. Is there anything there that should shape our heart and our conversation as the gospel went cross-culture I mean Jerusalem Council kind of, how they all came down to Acts 15, I think is pretty formative. What is required, right, there's a new ethic and get rid of your other gods. There's, if there's sexual immorality, get rid of those. Get rid of those, those other other idols, just going back to our old Testament kind of standards. That's, that's it, and it's going to look. It's going to look different for you in your respective context, but the core, the core teachings of Christ and Him crucified, the gospel is going to go beyond. It's crazy how the gospel goes into all different types of cultures and is so—Jesus is a thing that unites us.
Speaker 1:He is, and he also divides us because he's pretty exclusionary, right with what he says about Himself. But I think that's the posture we need to have today. As you look at Acts and Paul's approach, how should that shape our work in post-Christian America?
Speaker 2:Man, that's a great question. I'd have to say that one of the things that always strikes me about the book of Acts was that they found ways, through the leading of God's spirit, to be able to share faith and I use the word language their faith in a way that people understood. And I don't know if we're doing that type of training in a local congregation any longer. I think we have it. Like you said earlier, we have insider language. We all understand what we say within the walls of a local congregation. But, you know, I've done some interesting studies about the fact of. I mean, you can actually find places on the internet where very smart people have studied what most individuals are talking about in culture these days, and you can see this as almost like buildings tall buildings or small buildings and majority, vast, vast, vast majority of conversations that people are having do not in any way, shape or form have to do with faith, and so Christian people, jesus following people, don't even know how to be able to explain their faith in a way that a non-believer or a non-Jesus following person would understand. And so, you know, I've tried to be able to think through.
Speaker 2:What does it mean to language the faith in the 21st century, in a post-Christendom culture where people don't get the whole idea of even some basic things that we understand, like sacrifice.
Speaker 2:Sacrificial living is key to the gospel, key to the response of God's spirit within our lives. People don't understand sacrifice and how much consumerism and other type of language from culture has been integrated within issues of faith. We don't even know how to be able to have conversations, and so I'm always taken aback by and astounded by the fact that the book of Acts is loaded with not just miraculous acts of God and miraculous outpourings of God's spirit that actually were changing people's trajectory of their lives, but the conversations that are talked about within the pages of the book of Acts are all relevant. People are communicating to each other and, like I said, I don't know how we train people these days. I wish I had a really great book to be able to share with everybody. But how do we language the faith in a way that people can understand who Jesus is, how much Jesus means to us and how much Jesus can make an impact upon their life Not just their eternity, but their life today, and that's a huge challenge.
Speaker 1:You know what and I haven't. I agree I haven't done a lot of work on this. I don't think I've ever even said this, but weren't all of the early Christians? I mean, when Jesus came, he did a new thing, right, I mean?
Speaker 2:the.
Speaker 1:Holy Spirit came. This was a brand new thing, and so they were all on this like, wow, this is kind of crazy. Are you a Jew? Yeah, but I'm a Christian. Are you a Gentile? Well, I have some of these like pagan roots, for sure, and my family's still there. But now there's a new king in town. His name is Jesus.
Speaker 1:So they were all kind of starting from scratch, if you will, god was working, and so I think that when they raised up indigenous leaders, like they immediately knew the language, they knew the gods, right, and so it's really hard.
Speaker 1:The gods of that day and age, right, and so it's really hard, I think, for those of us especially, you've been in the church for your whole life. I've been in the church, I'm 42, right, my whole life and multi-generation, this, that and so I've been enculturated in a Christian context, and so it's really hard for me and for many of us I think we've got to have a lot of sympathy and empathy here for us to learn that new language. We are cultural outsiders and there's a blessing to that, to be sure, but there's also a major hurdle to be jumped over by the Spirit's power as we immerse ourselves, and I think a lot of folks would say you know, I just don't want to do it. I'd rather not do the missionary thing, learn the culture, engage with folks. I just don't have any time for that. Maybe it's because our faith is pretty shallow, it's pretty weak, and to land this plan, I think the church has struggled with discipleship.
Speaker 2:Oh amen to that. I mean, that's basically in my blood right now. I mean, I've been hired by a local congregation to not necessarily be the senior pastor. I love my senior pastor. I'm a program leader of a discipleship program and what it means for people to connect with each other and learn how to connect with people outside of the walls of our congregation, of the walls of our congregation, and you know, I think we need to find some way to be able to come up with spiritual formation measurements. That is not just about learning you know greater insights about and again understand my spirit in this.
Speaker 2:It's great to learn issues that have to do with the confessions and about scripture. But instead of looking at spiritual formation measurements that have to do with insider language, greater insights into what we already believe, higher levels of orthodoxy, how we feel closer to God, even how many times we've taken Holy Communion We've got to be able to give people spiritual formation measurements that have to do with challenges in mission and relationships outside of the context of the body and relationships outside of the context of the body. We've got to give them some sort of imagination for saying that you really are being spiritually formed when you're in a relationship with a person who doesn't know Jesus and you're even spiritually struggling and intellectually and emotionally struggling with how to be able to connect with them. And you've probably heard this a million times. I mean, I have and I'm a lot older than you. I mean, but many, many, many Christ followers and many, many, many people within our church bodies don't have significant relationships with people who are outside the church. You know it.
Speaker 2:Just it's astounding, it's that it astounds me, but you know, a vast majority of what we've taught Christian people to do is to lean into their Christian relationships and that's a great value. But you know, you've probably seen the Venn diagram. It's been popped up in all sorts of different types of books and literature and seminars etc. But I mean as much as we want to be able to embrace a vibrant worship life and we want to be able to have a vibrant life in Christian community, we've also got to be able to find just as balanced and connected way of being able to say we're going to take this mission blessing other people and serving the world this, what I call the out dimension of our relationship with God very, very seriously. It's got to be balanced. It's got to be equal emphasis and equal balance and equal connectedness All three values, or something's drastically missing.
Speaker 1:That's it. We've been loved, we're in relationship, we're tethered to Christ in his church and then we're sent out. There's always the sending. We're sent out in our various vocations to bring salt and light and love and care and tell the story of Jesus in a way that people can understand. And I think Lutheranism has a lot last topic here. I think Lutheranism, not as a denomination but as a set of teachings, would center us extra nos on God's love for us, not our love for him. Right, Not based on feelings, based on his proclamation.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Based on feelings, based on his proclamation, his declaration of who we are, I think. I think one of the olive branches of understanding right now what Lutherans can bring to the table is around the widely received by, by pre-Christians. Any other, any other take on identity and some of our core doctrines. Uh, that can kind of shape. Let's do some teaching training here. That can kind of shape how, uh, christians, lutherans, have conversation with their pre-Christian neighbors and coworkers.
Speaker 2:That's great, um, workers, that's great. Yeah, I mean, our identity is, is based in Jesus, and so when we, you know I mean I've heard Alan Hirsch say this years and years ago he said you know, when you, when you cut yourself, you should be bleeding Jesus. That's actually something that's stuck with me for years, since I heard him originally say it at a conference but you know, our identity is shaped by Christ. It's in Christ, every day, that we live our lives. You know, or we should be reflecting the nature and character of Jesus. And the word of God informs us too, because we now, obviously, as Lutheran Jesus followers, lutheran Christians, we have a rich, rich, rich heritage of embracing the truth of God's word, which, from the very beginning, not only tells us about the nature and character of God, but what it means for us to be able to understand ourselves as human beings, not just human beings individualistically, but individuals in relationships with each other and with God himself and also with creation. So I mean, just the opening chapters of the book of Genesis set out what it means for us to be able to understand our identity and then to be able to jump right into the core of the gospels and the core of, you know, the Pauline epistles, as well as other places in the New Testament, which continue to take us back again and again and again to a new identity that we have in Jesus.
Speaker 2:I mean, as much as I love it, I actually get into fun oh kind of like teasing conversations with some of the members of our pastoral and leadership staff at our church. It's really fun. But you know, I love the fact that we can talk about the fact that we are broken sinners on a weekly basis. But I mean, if you look at the opening verses of every one of Paul's letters, he does not identify himself as a sinner, he identifies himself as a saint and he addresses the saints.
Speaker 2:So there's something about our identity that has been shaped in a transformational manner by the cross and empty tomb and by the giving of God's spirit. We are saints in the Lord and we challenge each other to be able to live that calling in our lives, not necessarily to look back over the Red Sea, to be able to put ourselves into the weight or distortion of our sinful nature, but rather to be able to embrace this new nature and new identity we have in Jesus. All this is just solid, solid, solid Lutheran understanding of what it means to embrace the faith and we have so much to be able to share with people. I don't understand why we can't give the people within our local congregations more tools to be able to engage their neighbors and friends and people that they know with the types of things that can really make a difference in these people's lives, for the sake of the kingdom, I mean it's baptism, right?
Speaker 1:Yeah? Yeah, remember your baptism, you've been baptized. The evil one who tries to put all these other faulty identity markers on you, he has no right to say who you are. I get to say who you are and I say you're mine. And how do I know it's baptism?
Speaker 1:And then as you walk through the struggles and trials of life, as you are a poor, wretched, miserable sinner, you need to come back over and over again because we've sinned and thought word and deed by what we've done and failed to do, sins of omission and commission. Just come back to the table and taste and see the goodness and grace of God. You're claimed by him and forgiven of all of your sins, and now we're sent out by the Holy Spirit's power. I have struggled, I guess, because a lot of leadership and life in the church is so reactive rather than proactive, and one of the things I've observed is our I think, right suspicion of some of the charismatic movements and the abuses there. But I don't know that we talk about the Holy Spirit as much as we should. Anything more to say about the work of the Holy Spirit in our Lutheran context?
Speaker 2:Yeah, Well, it's interesting. Kind of anecdotally, I've been asked by a couple of little Bible study small groups to be able to help them just kind of process the teachings of the Holy Spirit and the whole idea of sanctification. I personally believe, after being involved in Lutheran Christian churches a variety of them over the course of my life as a lay person as well as a professional leader in the church that our embracing of the doctrine of sanctification and the doctrine of the Holy Spirit is the weakest part of our overall teaching within a congregation. And I think if people understood more not just understood intellectually but understood experientially about the power of the Spirit, there would be a revolution within the church that we wouldn't be able to contain, because that's where the power comes from.
Speaker 2:And you know what I'm going to go back to one thing you were telling some stories just a minute ago.
Speaker 2:You know I always go back to that identity issue that Peter had to deal with with Jesus at the end of the gospel of John, you know, and here's a broken man who denied Jesus publicly three times the day of the cross and he's brought to a small little fire where Jesus is making a meal.
Speaker 2:And Jesus doesn't put his face into his sin, doesn't put his face into his brokenness or even his personal sense of most likely hidden shame, but he calls him into a new reality, that new identity, and I think that's what happens with us every single day and that's what we need to embrace. And also, you know, right there in that particular section, there's that section of the Gospel of John where the Spirit of God is talked about very, very, very plainly and very, very openly and also very extensively. So all those themes interact with each other as they're getting to the culmination of John's story in that gospel and I think they're all integrated into the identity issue, into what it means to live mission and what it means to be able to see ourselves as spirit-enabled and spirit-powered people living for the kingdom today.
Speaker 1:Man. That's such a good place to end, peter. Peter, obviously he receives the Holy Spirit Right. But not everybody preaches that same sermon in Acts 2. It's Peter, and I can't wait to ask him how much did that? That meal with Jesus? Do you love me, peter? Feed my sheep, feed my sheep that meal with Jesus? Do you love me, peter? Feed my sheep, feed my sheep, give them my word, don't stop, bro.
Speaker 1:You know how much did that shape his future ministry? Profound, isn't it? And then he goes. You know, on this rock, peter, you're my rock, bro, I'm going to change your name Peter. And like, that whole identity catalyzed him as a leader of the church. How much more so. And Jesus is setting obviously an example for us, speaking words of love and care and sending over those that we've been blessed to disciple. And that's the greatest joy of my life is, hey, you love Jesus more than that, he loves you. Leader, go, feed people, share the gospel liberally, get it out there into people's ears so they may believe and then, as they believe, they're going to bring more people to believe. The goodness and grace of God, for the days are too short for us to the last, last comment here. The days are far too short for us, robin uh to be fighting with one another within the church, straining, straining, gnats.
Speaker 1:A day has come for us to to share Jesus and and to train to see if you're a leader in the church. We talk about this a lot. You're not a doer, yeah, you bring word and sacrament, to be sure, but you're a developer of people and, as you're being, hopefully you're being discipled by someone pastor, someone, a spiritual father who cares for you, loves you and then mobilizes you, empowers you to go and empower others. This is the call of Christ, it was the way of Christ, and the days are too short to do anything else. Any final comments? Robin, this has been great bro.
Speaker 2:Yeah, two more things. I love your spirit of hospitality, tim, and I love the fact that we really are called, even though we might have disagreements with other leaders within our denomination. I hope and pray that we can be loving and hospitable even in those disagreements. But I really do believe that something that you've said is that the church itself, if we understand the church as the practical application of the missio dei, we will understand what the church is supposed to be about. The church is not primarily for us, it's a church for the world, and that's but that if we, if we turn inward, we're going to continue to find ourselves as a dying brand, and a dying brand is a defensive brand. If we talk about branding all the way back to question number one and so we need to be, we need to be jumping on God's mission. I think once we're all mission-driven, hospitality comes along with that. Because we're hospitable with the world, we find that that actually leaks into our own relationships one with another.
Speaker 1:This has been so fun. Robin, this is Lead Time, Hot Topic Friday. You blessed our listeners so extensively, brother, not just with what you said, but how you say it. The love and joy, the hospitality of Christ rests upon you. Continue to lead with passion and boldness. I also you're a healthy guy and we've just met, but I can tell like immediately, you care about being present with people. You care about the temple of the Holy Spirit, the body God has given you for as many days as he has you on planet earth. You are going to waste yourself.
Speaker 1:You're going to waste yourself, and I have the same perspective waste ourselves in anticipation of serving others who can bring the gospel to others. How can people connect with you, Robin, if they desire to do so?
Speaker 2:Well, they can get ahold of me on my email at rdougal and my home email is maccom, so they can do that Also. I have a website, robindougalcom. I've got some of the things I've taught on in terms of missional living and some Bible study stuff that I do here locally at our church, as well as seminars and conferences I get a chance to be able to speak at. So I'm all about discipleship these days, tim. You know I wish I would have been 30 years ago, but that's a whole nother conversation we can have.
Speaker 1:Discipleship is what the church is about. No, he isn't.
Speaker 2:I mean oh man, that's so true, but thank you for having me today. I hope our conversation continues.
Speaker 1:Amen, I love it. This is Lead Time. Sharon is caring Like subscribe, comment, wherever it is you take in these podcasts and we'll continue to have invigorating conversations with those within, and most of the time our Lead Time conversations are with brothers and sisters within the Lutheran Church, missouri Synod, and we're also learning with those who are outside. I've got some great episodes coming up on the American Reformation podcast, so God bless you, robin. You're a gift to the church, brother, great to meet you.