Lead Time
Lead Time
The Truth about Concordia Ann Arbor - Discussing the Future of Lutheran Institutions with Dan Burk
Join us as we chat with Dan Burk, principal and chief operating officer at St. Matthew Lutheran Church and School in Westland, Michigan, who shares his intriguing journey and the layers of challenges and rewards that come with it.
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We kick off with Dan's extensive background in Lutheran education. Discover the importance of strong support staff and the power of effective communication as Dan delves into the pressing issues at Concordia Ann Arbor, advocating for transparency and honest dialogue.
As we navigate the broader struggles within the Concordia University System, Dan offers a poignant critique of the recent campus closures, drawing parallels to the emotional impact of losing a family member. We explore the urgent call for a clear vision to rebuild trust and the essential role of leadership in casting a future direction. The conversation underscores the importance of open dialogues with stakeholders and the balance between maintaining a strong Lutheran identity while being welcoming to students from diverse backgrounds. Dan's personal anecdotes make the case for the profound impact of Lutheran education on students' spiritual journeys.
We wrap up with a deep dive into the critical elements of effective leadership—vision, trust, and empathy. Hear how vulnerability and honesty can forge stronger bonds within a community, with Dan drawing lessons from Jesus' model of servitude and humility. The discussion expands to the importance of guiding children with integrity and the role of educators in establishing foundational truths. Whether you're a leader, an educator, or someone passionate about the future of Lutheran education, this episode offers valuable insights and heartfelt reflections.
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welcome to lead time, tim allman, here with jack cowberg. It is a beautiful day to be alive. It's a beautiful day for a mustache, jack you're looking fantastic.
Speaker 2:We got a guest, uh, a guest interviewer here. Tom selick is joining us, yeah yeah, I.
Speaker 1:I am going to a family reunion and I'm paying respects to my dad who, when he was my age, had a rocking stash. So shout out to Pastor Dave Allman, I'm coming in hot with the stash.
Speaker 2:Tim, you are rocking it today. It is rocking so ridiculous. If you like Tim's mustache, put a comment in there, go ahead and leave a comment, whether it's—.
Speaker 1:I do not, we should keep it or not keep it? I am not. We should keep it or not keep it. I am not. It's not going to be kept because it's too weird. My daughter actually can't look at me. She just looks at me and she laughs, and that makes me feel real self-conscious. So anyway, it's a good day to be alive. It's a good day for us to learn with Dan Burke.
Speaker 1:Let me tell you a little bit about Dan Burke. He is a principal and chief operating officer at St Matthew Lutheran Church and School in Westland Michigan. He's dedicated his career to Lutheran education. Over two decades of experience in Lutheran schools. Praise be to God. Married to his high school, no college sweetheart. He has a bachelor's and master's degree at Concordia University, wisconsin, and he met his wife, rebecca, there a couple teenage sons, so good. Dan's teaching career spans over 20 years, with Stinson, california, the Lansing area and now Metro Detroit. He's led various schools, various levels, from elementary to high school. He's been a principal at his alma mater, st Matthew Lutheran School. So that's where let's just pause right there. You grew up at the school and church that you're now leading in, dan, is that right?
Speaker 3:That is correct and a funny thing is two of my staff members were my teachers back in the day.
Speaker 1:Come on so now they're boss. It is. It's cool to see that generational impact.
Speaker 1:That is so good, so good, dan. He's been a coach. Dan also received an award from the Michigan District there of the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod as the Principal of the Year in 2022. And he attributes that to his exceptional support staff, his staff and those that are providing I'm sure you got assistant principals, all those types of leadership folks who are around you. So, before we get into this, he also serves on the board of directors in the Michigan district and I've been, as we've had a number of these conversations, I've been praying okay, do we talk about the elephant in the room, which is the Concordia Ann Arbor story?
Speaker 1:And I think I think yes, let's just start there, dan, if that's okay and we're going to speak. The truth Sounds good. Speak the truth and love in all things. So President Dave Davis recently came out publicly with a letter expressing discontent in a variety of topics related to what I term the yuckiness of the Concordia, wisconsin Ann Arbor story. So what part of the story is you're looking now as a leader in the district and on the board of directors? What part of that story is the most troubling for you there, dan?
Speaker 3:Well, I want to say I'm not speaking for the board today. This is my personal viewpoints and opinion and I'm not speaking for President Davis as well. The yuckiness is, as you have heard and going around, is the failure to communicate properly. I always looked at being a leader as how do we communicate? And I think the yuckiness is the hidden maybe hidden agendas that are out there, not clear cut. Communication of being forthright in planning, communication of being forthright in planning.
Speaker 3:There was a, as you know, a committee that came together within the Michigan district that put together a plan and the plan was a multi-year great plan to maybe get us to where we need to be as an autonomous university.
Speaker 3:But from what I'm understanding is that was pretty much rejected, not even looked at with full intentions of not being truthful in what we need to do to not necessarily save Concordia Ann Arbor, but to do what is God asking us to do. I think, as we look at our university system, we have lost, you know, three universities now Concordia's in the last six years. We have Concordia Texas, kind of like a stepchild you know being. We're suing them as sent from Synod Inc. And there's some hurtness there and then we get the bombshell of Concordia, ann Arbor. There's hurtness there and then we get the bombshell of Concordia, ann Arbor. What's happening? I have former students, I have current students that wanted to go to Concordia University, ann Arbor and it's destroying their lives that they're going to have to make different decisions now and not be able to be where they wanted to be.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, it's rough and we're praying for all the faculty and staff and students there through this transition and, um, you know I not to push back too much there, dan, but yeah, I don't destroying, destroying maybe strong, right, I mean it's a life is filled with unexpected things and for kids, to learn those unexpected things and it's.
Speaker 1:It's just a shame, you know. You kind of equate it to some of the hard things the kids had to learn during COVID. Hopefully it's building resilience. And I will say this though the direct, because of how this has all gone down, the direct sale to say, a kid at Concordia, Ann Arbor, you're immediately going to transfer loyalty over to your alma mater, concordia, wisconsin. That doesn't make a lot of sense and I think a lot of kids are really struggling with staying connected that way. Anything more to say there, dan?
Speaker 3:No, it doesn't make sense and it's it's really not even realistic. Um, if you're just taking the athletes at its own, concordia, ann Arbor, being NAIA had scholarships, athletic scholarships. I have some athletes that had scholarships, mequon being a D3, they don't have those same athletic scholarships. They just think that they can afford Concordia Wisconsin move them over. Obviously there's other scholarships that Mequon could probably provide to offset maybe, but it's not realistic. I love Concordia Wisconsin. I really do. I'm, you know, I'm still paying my, my degrees, you know from there, met my wife there.
Speaker 3:We really, we really pushed our oldest son to even go to Mequon during his senior year of of high school. And you know God has all knowledge and you know he's going to Eastern Michigan and he's working with a good Christian leader with the football team. He's a videographer for the football team. Coach Creighton is a is a good Christian. He actually coached at Concordia, chicago or River Forest back in the day. So I know God's plan for my kids to my students, former and past, that God will provide them. And it is a strong word to say that they're destroying. But that's what they're telling me, that's how they're coming to me and their parents are asking me how can we move forward? What hope do they have? On that? And you know we do rest assured in the hope of our Christ, but it's hard to. To them it's like a death in the family.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think that's a good look at it.
Speaker 2:It seems to me and I have to, you know, confess that I am very much an outsider looking in right. I don't live in Michigan, I'm not part of that district, but it it seems to me what's on the surface of what we can see is that you have a serious disconnect between people that are making this business decision and the stakeholders that are depending on this school as a product, as a service, as an institution, and that communication is not happening, that transparency is not happening. It doesn't even seem like that spirit to try and do that really exists, like it should. And all that being said, if that's what's going on, that is a recipe for the erosion of trust and that's not healthy for our church body. And really, what needs to be happening as a church body is we need to be casting a vision for what it looks like to double our enrollment at our Concordias. That needs to be happening as a church body is we need to be casting a vision for what it looks like to double our enrollment at our Concordias.
Speaker 2:That needs to be the vision that we have to be throwing out there, not opaque, managed decline Right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I think even with the other Concordias, maybe financially they had to close Selma and Bronxville and Portland, but having those open conversations with those stakeholders is key. Some of my former schools have had closed. We just had a local grade school this past week made the tough decision that they're closing for this school year and it's you know their principal. The very next day he's on the phone talking to every parent and you know, giving them the bad news but also giving them hope of you know Christ is real. And there's other Lutheran schools in the area that they could continue at, and so forth. I just don't feel that that communication again goes back to the communication and the vision.
Speaker 2:What is our vision. What is our vision? And there can be great ministry and business reasons why you close down one campus and invest in another campus or start up another campus because of the way demographics are shifting. There can be a great rationale about that. But I just don't see that vision being cast. Like if this is necessary to expand the Concordia system, lay that plan out Right.
Speaker 3:Describe that to us.
Speaker 2:What does that vision?
Speaker 3:actually look like. Don't take three weeks.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we took three weeks and said we're going to close or somewhat reimagine Then, luckily then we got another three months to hold on to the hope. But to me that's a lot of moving very fast without a good plan ahead, fast without a good plan ahead.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So, all that being said, leadership is about vision, and I'm just not seeing there's a deficit there. That's what it seems like.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I pray for President Ankerberg every day and his entire staff. You know that has to make these tough decisions and, you know, maybe getting a little bit more hate than they deserve or not needed. He is still our brother in Christ and I pray that one day that we'll see him in heaven just like anybody else.
Speaker 2:And I think this is an iron sharpens iron moment. There's a lot of talented leaders that are wanting our leaders to be better at their jobs. I think that's really what it boils down to, and that's love right. Frustration maybe, but also, I think, an expression of love right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, and we can't be blaming, you know, the staff members or the other students at Mequon too, I do. You know. I have seen going back to yuckiness, I have seen some of that going around and you know, trying to put blame maybe in the wrong place, yeah, so this is systemic as I look at the landscape of the LCMS and obviously on this podcast and privately talk to a lot of different people.
Speaker 1:I don't think I've ever said this publicly. We've lost the ability to challenge people in our own family tribe camp and if you can't honestly evaluate where the group of people you're associating with and it's just a view of reality here's the struggle and I'm not a villain when I call out what the struggle is, I'm with you. Let's clearly articulate what the struggle is, I'm with you. Let's clearly articulate what the struggle is. And then, if hey, you're my brother, sister in Christ, if I see something that is off, it is my responsibility on your team to be a kind adjutant. But unfortunately we're just in our own little echo chambers spinning around. Anybody that has a counter view and President Davis being one of those folks in the room has just been summarily shut down. That view it was very, very aggressive in that May board meeting with Concordia Ann Arbor, concordia, wisconsin, with 11 brand new board members in that room.
Speaker 1:The end of that video that I listened to with a stern warning, generally given everybody knew it was toward President Davis and the Michigan district in general. A stern warning generally, given everybody knew it was toward President Davis in the Michigan district in general. A stern warning don't talk, don't try, you mind your role. We, we get to leave. I mean, that's when you get to that place of power in the room. I know we're trying to manage it well, uh, but we, we miss a lot of the details and the nuance and the trust, because no one can look at President Davis, you know, and say, man, that guy's a real jerk, like yeah he really was.
Speaker 1:No, he's as like churchly as you possibly can. So if you can't, if you can't like, welcome the feedback from that group and then honestly assess. Hey, there was a group of people that tried really, really hard to raise $3.8 million to save, you know, at least buy more time. But no, the die had been cast and the train was down the track. So let me a final question on this.
Speaker 1:President Davis has said that the Board of Regents Committee report on Concordia, ann Arbor. He said the weakness is a shallow understanding. So this is what the report said from the Board of Regents. I didn't actually talk to President Davis about this, but this is what the Board of Regents for the Joint Wisconsin-Ann Arbor Board wrote. They said the weakness is and this is of Ann Arbor the weakness is a shallow understanding of Lutheran mission and identity that equates evangelization with Lutheran mission and identity. And then President David said he found it odd, at best, to put evangelization at odds with mission. What are we even saying there in this report? I mean, those are such loaded words with very little detail to back that statement. So can you help us make sense of this, dan?
Speaker 3:I can try, because when I originally read that report too and it did confuse me in a little bit and I think it goes back to that whole Lutheran identity Is Concordia Ann Arbor Lutheran enough? And I think for the first time in my life and I've been a Lutheran, lcms, lutheran my entire life that I'm questioning am I Lutheran enough? Am I doing something? You know, I am stubborn, I'm a, I am Lutheran, so I'm stubborn and I'm a Burke. We're all stubborn as Burke guys. But I think, where are we? You know, what do we want to see our Concordias at?
Speaker 3:You know, I look at my school, my, you know, we are a Lutheran school. We just celebrated our 75th year as a school building and praise God, and 90% of my students are not Lutheran and another 10% of those almost 10%, almost the entire thing are not members of our church. We only have a few handful of kids at our school that are members of our church and I think, well, we couldn't survive if we were just basing it off of those three kids. And does that mean our other students that we're educating not just academically but spiritually? Are we not doing enough good, good enough job? In the last six years we had 30 students baptized. Now is that not good enough? And to me that's you know again. That's why I'm questioning Is our church Lutheran enough? And we're pretty traditional here. For the most part we do have a contemporary worship service. But if you look at our history, one of our longest running pastor, reverend Fisher, was very, very traditional and I think to say that he's not Lutheran when he has probably had the entire Bible memorized in English and German is a crime. And so, with this statement, where is Concordia at? Are they Lutheran enough?
Speaker 3:I know, when I'm on campus there, you know, I do see Christ being lived out each and every day. I do see Christ being lived out each and every day when I go to chapel there. When I'm there, I see the chapel full of students praising God. I see the athletes there praising God. I was an athlete at Concordia, wisconsin. I could tell you my wrestling team. We didn't go together as a team to praise God or go to the chapel even once a week, if not more than a week.
Speaker 3:There was a group, a lot of students at Macquand that didn't go to the chapel even once a week, if not more than a week. There was a group, a lot of students at Macquand that didn't go to church chapel. Does that make them bad? No, but what are we talking about? Are we? You know, not enough crucifixes, not enough stained glass windows? I mean, we have a statue of Martin Luther on campus, does that not count? So I don't know if that's where they're going at and I don't want to speak for President Davis or the Michigan District Board, but it is a confusing statement and, again, I think the leadership has a communication problem. They come out with something not really thinking it through and then they have to come back out again and try to clarify what they're saying.
Speaker 2:We're seeing this kind of trend. Are our Concordia schools and our Lutheran schools? Are they missional or are they covenant schools? Ie, you know, maybe you would call that confessional, in that you're expecting a confession from the students that enroll and the families that enroll, of alignment there, right? And I think the beauty of our LCMS school system is it really has. I mean, maybe excluding the seminaries, but all of the colleges, all of our schools, they really have a history of being missional schools and I know for our own school, like, hey, you got a Muslim kid that wants to enroll here. Amen, sign them up. They're going to hear about Jesus every day.
Speaker 3:That's Jesus. That's a win. Yeah, that is a win.
Speaker 2:That is a that is a win. An atheist yes, Sign up your kid. He's going to learn about Jesus every day. Maybe, yes, sign up your kid, he's going to learn about Jesus every day.
Speaker 3:Maybe he doesn't get baptized in the time that he's enrolled here, but he's still going to have, you know, eight to ten years of.
Speaker 2:Christian teaching that he's going to have to wrestle with his whole life. Right so good.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So you know, and that reminds.
Speaker 3:That reminds me of a student I had at one of my schools. She came to us. She was kicked out of her public high school for bringing a knife. She felt like she was being bullied, had a knife, automatic, 180-day suspension. Her grandma brought her to us.
Speaker 3:I started working with her one-on-one, tried to get her caught up. Our school board didn't really want her either in our school, but I was able to set her up with a couple educators to continue giving her what she needed and she didn't really have a life with Christ. Besides, her grandma kind of went to church once in a while. After I left that building I got a message like two years later telling me that the student got baptized, she's going to church regularly and and she thanks me for planting the seeds. I mean, it's the Holy Spirit doing all the work, but I I I have a hard time. Even probably one of my faults as a principal is that fine line of a rowing a student that maybe not know Christ, that maybe behavioral wise, maybe a little bit off, and giving them the word of God. And that's always been the struggle of how do we get these kids the word of God, because we may be the only seed that they're getting.
Speaker 2:I've heard so many stories where the student is the evangelist in the home. That's right.
Speaker 3:We've heard stories. We have that always.
Speaker 2:I mean preschool students that are teaching their parents to pray at the dinner table, right, they've never done that before.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:The kid insists on it. Right, because of what they're learning in school. Right, they're coming to chapel. Families are coming to chapel. It's the first time they've ever been in a worship service. Right? So it is hardcore evangelism and mission. From my perspective, if you think about it the right way, right, if you give yourself permission to think that way. But that requires a bold sort of confident stance in what you're doing.
Speaker 1:So we're. It's kind of interesting. We're walking through a lot of the same, I guess struggles as the Reformation Church did. I guess struggles as the Reformation Church did, and one of the biggest struggles that on both fronts that Lutherans had was with Catholics and then Anabaptists, and in both of those cases they were making the case that I am righteous because of something I do right or some ritual that I keep right or good works that I make, and so it's this external indicator, or you could say fruit, that I am found in faith. And I see the same.
Speaker 1:We're falling into the same kind of ditch Lutheran dish when you ask what makes me Lutheran enough, and then you have all these external indicators to prove that you're the right kind of Lutheran. The things you do in worship per se, I'm all into, you know, lutheran liturgy. It tells the story. But when we're kind of labeling people a certain way because they have a certain ritual, we're falling right into either the Catholic or the Anabaptist on either one of those extremes we're falling into that. Works righteous, you live by the law, you die by the law. We have been set free from the crushing weight of the law by the finished work of Jesus through his life, death and resurrection. And now I am made righteous. Apart from anything that I do, I'm made righteous by the declaration of God for me, baptized in the name of the Father, son and Holy Spirit, I'm a new creation. I no longer live. Christ lives in me.
Speaker 1:So what makes you Lutheran enough? It's the confession of Christ and Him crucified and, through the means of grace, the catechesis that we receive of passive faith. That should be enough. Church Today, that should be more than enough, Dan. But we should be enough. Church today, that should be more than more than enough, dan. But we have a number of these external indicators, uh, that we're trying to and I would so to challenge the contemporary side. Do you look at your brother or sister that has different worship practices? You're like, wow, those guys aren't growing because they do the certain things. They don't do all the new trendy stuff that we do. That's living by the law. Neither of those extremes are going to work for us as we unite around the confession of Christ crucified today. Anything to say to that, dan?
Speaker 3:Well, I'm not an expert on the theology side at all, but I look at it as a school being a missional school or covenant school or somewhere in between. There are different types of schools and we need different types of schools. We need our public school. I always I'm an advocate that I want my Wayne-Westland public school district to be successful because I believe that helps us out as St Matthew Lutheran School and then we are successful. That helps them out. We're in this together, we're, you know, even though we're competing for the same kids.
Speaker 3:In some ways we have to be able to see that there's not just one. I mean, there's only one way to Christ, one way to heaven, but there's not one way to educate. There's not, you know, one way as long as all the elements are there. What type of songs? I don't care anymore. I used to care, I think I used, I used to be. You know, very, you know, I would say anti-contemporary music and there are some bad contemporary music out there and at least back in when I was younger, when it was kind of hitting its waves, there might've been some, but I, I found churches that Lutheran churches, missouri Synod Lutheran churches that can do it the right way and be able to uplift Christ theologically correct. And I think you know when we look at again how are we doing things, let's do it with love in Christ and if we have different opinions, let's talk about it nicely.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so good. Well, let's get into school, that's, that's enough. That's enough. So let's get into education and leadership.
Speaker 1:There's there's a lot of conversation now about why are we having so many struggles in our public secular universities and there are places of great secularism today the DEI kind of move and the openness, what I've heard. I've heard a lot of folks leaning into this in the secular world and these are not necessarily, these are education specialists. What they're saying generally is that we have had this very open kind of egalitarian approach with educating children that says we're going to teach you how to think, and a lot of them are saying, no, that's the wrong approach. We need to teach kids in the formative years what to think, what to think, what is true. This is the appropriate form of catechesis. Here's the history you need, here's the way the sciences work, and you've got the sage on the stage. There is a role for the sage on the stage to be sure, who says this is the way the world works. This is reality, both in your relationship with God, self, others and the rest of creation.
Speaker 1:But we've had such a I don't know liberal, you could say approach toward educating children that then, once they get to higher ed. It's all. Bets are all bets are absolutely off. And so what's your approach as an educator with teaching kids what to think? The final point here I heard someone recently say you know what? Every kid, especially the 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, into their teens, every kid is a communist. Have you ever heard this, jack?
Speaker 2:Every kid is a communist?
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, because they can be prone toward thoughts, toward communism, equality for everyone. You know it's just. Everybody gets whatever they want and all these types of things. That sounds good. That sounds good to me. That's not the way the world works. So talk about from your perspective, Dan, as a two decade long educator, how you teach kids what to think and then, as they grow, they learn how to think Any thoughts there.
Speaker 3:Well, you start with the truth, you know you start with. You know, from our preschool, even all the way through eighth grade, you start with the Bible and you, this is the word of God. This is there's no question about. You know, when you talk about communion, is it the Bible? And you, this is the word of God. This is there's no question about. You know, when you talk about communion, is it the blood and body? Yeah, this, this is. And so you work on.
Speaker 3:You know, we want our kids to be critical thinkers. We want them to investigate and examine and explore. We want them to do that. But at the same time, as a parent, you're not going to let your kid just walk down a busy street. You're going to withhold them until they're able and capable of making those decisions for themselves. So I always look at it as that. You know, as a parent, as a dad, same thing as a teacher. You know it's a.
Speaker 3:How do we get to the kid or the child to know the truth, first off, that the God loves him and that, and then also academic truth One plus one equals two. No matter how way you want to do it New math, old math or any other type of math. It is what it is. There are certain truths on that and it doesn't matter what you think. So it's, you know, it's with love and it's going through, you know, step by step.
Speaker 3:And the hard part for educators and I think especially since post-COVID is, you know, the fight that we might have with the parents, trying to get the parents more on board with our vision and culture than necessarily the kids. Usually the kids are there with us each day. They get, they see it, they believe it. The parents it's. How do we communicate to the parents to be on board too, especially when the parents may come from a very different background. So you know, this year we're working, besides just having student interactions, we're trying to be intentional by pretty much teaching the parents how to be A be parents in today's world, but B, how to be Christian parents to their kids and what does it mean to have their kids here at St Matthew.
Speaker 1:Hey, that's good, let's get into leadership Before we do that. Parents, your role is not to have your kid be your friend. Your role is to teach, instruct, guide, direct, point to Jesus, the one who is true If your goal is to make your kids a friend in their early years and you do not provide the boundaries for them as they grow up. Kids need boundaries. They're probably going to grow up and you'll miss the opportunity in their adult critical thinking years to be their true friend.
Speaker 2:You'll miss that opportunity.
Speaker 1:If we, if we set, if we set aside, hey, in this season, until you're of age, probably all the way up to time you're married, ready to make those adult decisions. My job is to guide, direct, and there's different seasons of how I parent. Obviously, I parent a teenager different than I parent my five year old, but it's not. The ultimate goal isn't to keep them from all all harm. That's one of the biggest things today is like how is like?
Speaker 1:how do we give our kids the appropriate freedoms, you know, so that they can step up to the line, dip their toe on the other side of the line, behaviorally or whatever, physically, and say, ooh, don't go there, that burns. You know, I don't think we're giving our kids enough, either we're too detached from our kids, you know, or there's a happy medium.
Speaker 3:I think, yeah, that we need to walk down anything more there on parenting well, I think that you know you make up a great point and it kind of with our oldest son, you know, wanting him to go to mac one. I wanted to keep him in. You know we say it's a bubble, but you know, you know there there's sin still inside the bubble and and he? One of the reasons he didn't want to go to McQuine was he wanted to challenge himself a little bit, as as a Christian, he wanted to be able to see if he could be among the wolves and still still be a sheep. And and again, he has done a marvelous job. I am so proud of my son that he has. You know he helps me out each Sunday with our live stream and our sound booth in our church. He wants to help other churches out. He does a great job with the football team. He loves his major as a digital media production. He's doing everything. He makes my wife and I so proud, and the same with our youngest son.
Speaker 3:The way he acts and behaves. As just a freshman in high school, he's truly becoming a great leader, and especially on his basketball team and with his friends. He does, you know he does pretty much. He still sins, but he does what he's supposed to be doing and pushes his friends to do the right thing as well. I think when you are a parent and not their friend, especially as a young age, when they get older, it becomes really fun. It really becomes a great time to have those. You know, I have an 18 year old and a 15 year old and it's it's becoming starting to become real fun that we can have some great conversations and so forth, and even, as myself, if my dad tells me to do something, I'm doing it. Um, even at my old age, always a son.
Speaker 1:That's right, that's right. Fourth commandment. So good, um, all right, let's get into school leadership. As you lead in the church and the school. Uh, what are top three characteristics that make someone a leader that other people want to follow?
Speaker 3:So I thinking about this, I think about all the great leaders that I've had, again, going back to my late Reverend Pastor Fisher, pastor Robert Dargots out in California, president Ferry. I have Reverend Jeff Moore here at St Matthew and so forth. I think about what qualities they had and I think about also the maybe some of the bad leaders that I've been under. And then I look at myself and what does my staff want? And we kind of talked based about. One of the major one is being a visionary, having that vision, be able to look down the road and be able to communicate that vision of where do we want to go as a school, as a ministry? How do we lead our students? I truly believe in that. Every teacher is a leader, every student is a leader as well, and we need to be able to. My job is to cast that vision for my teachers, to get them to see here's where we want to go, here's where we need to go. And with that, you know you can't have. You need integrity to be able to, for them to not just see that vision but then to believe it. They need to know that I have their back, that I'm supporting them, it. They need to know that I have their back, that I'm supporting them, correcting just like a parent correcting them when they're wrong, but doing it in a loving manner. And then it goes to my third one is probably empathy. I think we see students not having enough empathy for each other. Again, I'm not a micromanager type person. I don't like being micromanaged. I want voices from my staff to tell me help me, here's a question, guide me. I mean, ultimately, the decision is mine and I have to live with it and I have to take accountability if it fails. But I'm here, we're one happy family. Now, with that being a happy family, we do have fights, we do have disagreements. We talk it through, we work through issues together, but we know that we love each other and we care for each other and we love, as my staff, we love spending time together. We love, you know, on Christmas break, going to somebody's house and just relaxing, or summer barbecue One of the best, I think, during faculty meetings.
Speaker 3:One of the Favorite story I have is I had the teachers ask me what's one thing we could change about our faculty meetings, and a couple of them said have wine. And so then the very next faculty meeting, we had a bottle of red and a bottle of white to partake in a little bit, not a lot, but just so that they know that, as their leader, I'm here for them, I care for them and, as you mentioned, my principal of the year is all because my staff is amazing staff. They support me 100% and I try to support them 100%. I always apologize to them that I wish I might go. Okay, what else can I do for you? Where can I go to help you out If you're having a struggle? What? What more do you need? You you know. Do we need classes? Do we need all the resources? Let's figure it out. So those are my three vision, integrity and empathy.
Speaker 1:That's great, Jack Can you take on that.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:As, as you were talking like, I had my own list in my head which was almost identical to yours. It was vision, trust and care, which remarkably overlaps what you're talking about.
Speaker 3:It's basically the same thing.
Speaker 2:You have to be able to tell people where we're going. You have to have the personal type of character that lets people know You're not just going to randomly backtrack on things. A lot of times leadership falls apart because of lack of trust. So you say one thing and you do another thing and that creates a very toxic environment.
Speaker 2:So, even in the things that we correct right, that is an expression of our integrity, trust building, right and then, empathy, care, seeing people as human beings and not just cogs in a wheel for a machine to get something done right. Actually, being relationally connected to people, I think that's brilliant. That's a very easy handle for people.
Speaker 1:those three so how does trust deepen as a leader? I'll give you my general take. It's when the leader admits they're wrong or whatever they said was incomplete, or they said I'm not very good at this, I need help. All those things sound really, really simple, but it's hard. It's hard to actually do like in the moment.
Speaker 1:There are all those moments for leaders where you're like do I really want to be vulnerable right now? Do I really want to let folks in to? If it's personal, if it's a, if it's a characteristic, it's not a flaw, it's just a gap. I'm just not gifted to do these various things. So it always drives me. Trust building always drives me toward team and diverse gifts on that, on that team.
Speaker 1:And then if you're the senior leader, you better take like you can question what they say, but it would be unwise for me not to take Jack's advice regarding projections in our budget, Like I have no idea. It'd be very unwise for me not to take our team's advice regarding the systems that need to get created for us to be more efficient and effective in connecting with our growing community. I mean that would be. It'd be wild for me to think I need to do all those things. So how do you, Dan, honestly, you talk empathy. I guess it's right in between that care and the empathy. How do you ever express kind of like hey guys, I don't know what is a vulnerable conversation? I guess for you, Dan, look like and sound like.
Speaker 3:So I'll just throw out, when I was a principal at a high school part of what it was, a preschool, through high school and we would have I had a high school chapel, different from the rest of the school and it was right around, it was during right around Holy Week and it was a rough time for for us personally. You know, as a school, we were the board, the administration, we were starting to have a conversation of do we cut the high school? Do we, you know, do we split the high school off and let it do its own thing? Um and so forth, and and I, you know, I was put, I was in a negative spot in my mindset, a lot of it, cause it was, it was hurt, it was, there was a lot of pain and for the one of the chapel offerings, I, uh, we had a cross up on the board, uh, on the stage, and I wrote down every sin that I was thinking or did, like you know, got angry, you know, said something mean, and I went and I talked about it and I put it on the cross. And then I invited the kids to write their own sins and put it on the cross and give it over to the Lord. And, right there, the kids.
Speaker 3:Even though I was only there for two years, the bond I have with those kids, even still today and this is, you know, 15 years later is amazing.
Speaker 3:One of my students just got married this past weekend and so for another one it has three kids and we talk all the time and they saw me as not just their principal, they saw me as a human being that we do make mistakes and when I did make mistakes I apologize. And even now, as a principal, at an end of the year meeting, faculty meeting, my first thing to my teachers was I feel that I failed them because I couldn't do more for them. I couldn't you know and be there for them. And again they always uplift me and say no, you're doing more than that they need. It's just, you know, being vulnerable is tough and a lot of our leaders can't open up. I guess I'm a big baby in some ways like that, very emotional. I wear my heart on my sleeve and put it all out there. And luckily I have amazing staff and a loving wife that forgives me when I do wrong and loves me all the way.
Speaker 1:Was Jesus ever vulnerable?
Speaker 3:Yeah, where For sure. Ever vulnerable. Yeah, where for sure. Um well, when he walked into the town and his whole family in town said are you crazy, get out of here I mean that's good that's good.
Speaker 1:Yeah, to me that's one of the stories when he cried for lazarus right cried out for lazarus when he gives the hard speaking and talk about john six, unless you eat my body, drink my blood, you have no place with me. And a lot of the disciples go away. And then Jesus says vulnerably, looks at the 12, or you two going to go away and Peter a leader speaks up and says where else are we going to go?
Speaker 1:You have the words of eternal life. We've come to know you're the son of God, um, promised Messiah. So yeah, jesus was dead. Obviously the cross is his greatest moment of vulnerability, most likely naked, and I love we've been. We've been reflecting Jack a fair amount on shame, the role of shame, and he scorned the shame. He vulnerably hung on that cross for you and for me, um, he walked the shamefilled journey of our first parents, adam and Eve, who went and hid.
Speaker 1:Jesus was absolutely vulnerable, hanging there for the sins of the entire world, crying out my God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Asking for forgiveness for those that had put him there, and then stomping on Satan's neck as he died in the greatest reversal three days later, and then stomping on Satan's neck as he died in the greatest reversal three days later, rising from the dead. He is the most vulnerable one and so like and he was a perfect one. That's the wild thing. If there's one guy that shouldn't have been really that vulnerable, it's God in the flesh, for goodness sake. And yet he humbled himself, even to the point of death. Anything more to say on the humility of Jesus, dan?
Speaker 3:even to the point of death. Anything more to say on the humility of Jesus, dan? Well, it just shows us. You know, jesus is our ultimate role model as an educator, as a leader, and how you know going into, you know being a servant leader, and how do we give you know for our brothers and sisters in Christ and do what we need to do and speak love and speak truthful. I mean, jesus didn't hold back when he needed to tell them exactly what's going on. And to me, as a leader, we're put on the spot and sometimes we need that support staff around us to lift us up, because we aren't perfect like Jesus, but we need to try to be like Jesus.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so we started this conversation off with some of the rough stuff in life. There's always going to be rough stuff, because people are rough and messy and broken and sinful and selfish. So let's close with some good stuff. Why are you a part of the LCMS? What are the best parts of us?
Speaker 3:Dan. Well, I started out, you know, I've been LCMS my entire life. I thank my parents for being two individuals that have always pushed that going to church was important, being religious is important, Reading your Bible is important, making the sacrifices that my parents made to make sure that my brothers and I had a Lutheran education in grade school and high school and even into college. My older brother is an alum from Concordia, ann Arbor, you know, and his wife went to Concordia, ann Arbor, you know, and his daughter is going to go to Concordia, nebraska, next year, you know.
Speaker 3:So being Lutheran, lcms has always been part of my life. So, you know, I don't have any transformation story like that. But why do I stay there is because I, you know, find that it it's the closest to the truth that we can get to without being, you know, dogmatic about it. You know it's when you read the Bible and you listen to. When I listened to a pastor sermon, I can see the relationship there. When we look at the history of the LCMS and the importance of family, importance of education, importance of reaching the loss and reaching the communities. It's what I wanted, what I want and it's what I need. And, plus, my wife is Lutheran and LCMS and we went to have a strong relationship together with the same faith has always been important to both of us, and making sure that we raise our kids in the church too.
Speaker 1:Jack, you got any take on that. Why are you in the LCMS, Jack? You're an outsider, bro. What are you doing here? Definitely an outsider.
Speaker 2:You know people have followed my story. I was well, I've been a Christian my whole life because I was baptized at a very young age into the Lutheran church. But I was not raised Lutheran as a young kid. I was raised Pentecostal and I definitely see my Pentecostal friends as fellow Christians. But I had a lot of problems with the theology of the Pentecostal church and in some ways experienced the best way to describe it as a spiritual malpractice. And so, because of that experience, I was very unchurched for a while. I decided to keep my distance from it.
Speaker 2:But then, as I got later in life, you know, more mature as an adult and was getting ready to start a family, my wife and I we realized, you know, we shouldn't just be Christian nomads, we should find a church home and be part of that family. And so it brought me back to Lutheranism, mainly because my family had started to reconnect with Lutheranism due to my you know, my father's roots. And when I came here this is actually the church that I came to you know what I saw was word in sacrament and I didn't realize that's what I needed. But that is absolutely what I needed. It actually just freed my soul with a lot of the baggage that I was carrying, and so I immediately became a home for this place, and I loved becoming a member here, so I'm a committed member of the.
Speaker 2:LCMS. I love our theology. I think it's wonderful. I think it's beautiful, I think it cares for people really, really, really well and I'm praying. I'm praying for health and revitalization of our church body because I think it has so much to offer the country. I really do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the interesting story is we have a lot of leaders, actually pastors, who have a similar story to you, jack, who were outside either Catholic, charismatic, one of those two probably extremes and come in and I've known a number of these guys and they actually become like the most, the most passionate, bullish, passionate to pharisaical in terms of how they kind of look at. Yeah, because your tendency coming out would be to go, unless it looks and sounds like this, then there's no, there's no truth here and we need that part of us for sure to to step away from, you know, unionism, syncretism, all of those types of things. But then a number of us, like myself, third generation LCMS, like it's just, it's just in me. You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1:It's a different perspective on things, right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so I have this kind of more evangelical kind of approach toward it. Like I can be in relationship with different parts, Dan, you probably have the different members of the body of Christ and you know my fault would be I'll put the best construction on just about everything, all the way up to the point of potential heresy, and then I got to be kind of pulled back. Oh, I'm serious about that. Like I want to agree. There's a part of me that wants to find bridges of understanding because I think John 17, Jesus' vision in John 17, that the world would see a united church is not something just aspirational. It has a real, powerful impact today and I think that Lutherans this is a major part of our Lutherans walking that middle road can extend an arm of understanding both to charismatics. We should be spirit filled, passive faith, right, Spirit filled.
Speaker 1:And at the same time. You know there are, there's a history, there's a tradition. We don't just come, you know, fly by night as American evangelicals. You know we come from somewhere. There's a stream, there's a line of thought, a theological foundation that undergirds us. And so, yeah, can we walk that middle road today? And unless Missouri can kind of figure out how to walk that middle road today, disagreeing agreeably and putting the best construction honestly on those of us who are within the tribe, whose practices look slightly different, not unfaithful, but just slightly different in our varying context, that has to be a part of our vision of unity moving forward. And I don't know that we're speaking across the respective aisles that well. Today we're pandering to the partisan tribal tendencies here in the American story and it's just really, really damaging. It should not be in the church. Anything more to say to that, Dan or Jack.
Speaker 3:Well, I think you know I look at it as we're trying we're kind of hunkering down a little bit too much where we have this great thing and the world is trying to take it away. So we're we're trying to let's get all the reserves into inside so we can hide it, so that we don't lose it and not reach out to you know where we need to be reaching out. You know, every week I kind of do a children's message during our traditional service and I try to always end it on reminding the kids to go out into the community tell other people about Christ.
Speaker 1:Amen.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I guess kind of to your comment.
Speaker 2:Tim, about the insider and the outsider right, like I think what you're seeing.
Speaker 2:For those people who are grafted in, there's a reason why that happened right.
Speaker 2:There's a reason why they're not where they were and why they're in a new spot right now, and I think their anxiety is hey, we don't want to become the thing that I went away from Right, and on the surface certain things may look the same, but if you peel back the surface, there's other things that maybe, because you're an insider in that environment, you know a little bit more about, and so there may be challenge in that, in that direction, which I think is healthy for our church body to balance those two things. I love the idea of staying connected to other church bodies, just because I think there's a great opportunity to have conversations about things and to speak into certain things that we're not really getting a chance to speak into right now, and I think people in other contexts would be blessed by hearing the things that we're not really getting a chance to speak into right now, and I think people in other contexts would be blessed by hearing the things that we have to say in a loving conversation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Lutherans have always been very interested in inter-ecumenical dialogue. Right and as the world has shifted, today we have so much to learn in terms of first-article realities, Jack.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:Just what are the systems and structures? This is a lot of what the ULC does. What are the best practices that's not a negative term Best practices for leading in 2024 and beyond as best use of technology? You know we need to wrestle with all of those types of things, so this is great. Last question, dan what a joy to get to meet you and hear your story. Tell us about what makes you excited, about what God is doing in the Michigan District.
Speaker 3:You know I love the Michigan District. I mean not just because I grew up here, but too I think it's no offense the greatest district there is in the LCMS. I'm offended.
Speaker 2:PS yeah.
Speaker 1:I know.
Speaker 3:I love being a part of the board of directors, getting to know the ordained, the other commission workers and even two faithful men of God that love Christ and want Christ known as much as possible to everywhere we go.
Speaker 3:You know, talking about casting a vision, even though they're both of their visions might be a little bit different, but it's all for the kingdom of God and be able to be part of that, be able to live in the coldness, even when it's snowing, but be able to have such a great place to serve God. You're having three different camps here for people. I have a couple students this year going to Camp Concordia out here in Michigan or going to Camp Arcadia in Louisville. It's just amazing that you, you know we might not have the mountains, might not have the heat, deserts, but we have God in Christ and be able to be part of that is just amazing. Having having the Lutheran high schools that we do, having the Lutheran grade schools that we do Some, some of the districts you know, don't have that and struggle to be able to provide that. The fact that we can provide that in many different areas in Michigan is amazing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, michigan is kind of like the motherland of the LCMS in many respects. I mean a lot of really old congregations and I'm so, so grateful. Those camps, man, lutheran camps we run them. Different, man, you want to talk about an evangelical opportunity for kids to invite their friends to an amazing experience. That is what Lutheran camps provide. So this has been so fun, dan, grateful for you and for all that God is doing in the Michigan district. We're praying for Concordia, ann Arbor and everybody affected there If people want to connect with you and your ministry.
Speaker 1:How can they do so?
Speaker 3:They can go to. Stmatthewinfo is our website. You can find information there on that. I'm on Facebook. You know Dan Burke as well.
Speaker 1:All right, this has been so good, jack, wonderful work, as always. Sharing is caring, like, subscribe, comment wherever it is, you take it in. Uh, there's. So, if you want to, if you want to give a look over on YouTube to the, to the stash. I had a beard for about six months and uh, again, this is probably the one and done in terms of an interview with a stash. I just I'm laughing at myself.
Speaker 2:Unless the audience votes that he has to keep it, then he's got to keep it. I can't even take myself.
Speaker 1:serious. People can't listen to me talking about Concordia, ann Arbor with a stash. Look at this guy. What's he know? Anyway, so much fun to be with you guys today, dan, jack, we'll do it again sometime down the road. Jack and Dan, I can't wait to stay in touch. So peace the Lord. Good job Take care. God bless you, amen.