Lead Time
Lead Time
Pastor John Stennfeld after 35 Years of Ministry: Traditional or Contemporary? and much more!
What sustains a pastor through 35 years of ministry? Join us as John Stennfeld, a seasoned pastor at Christ Lutheran in Austin, Texas, reveals the foundations of his enduring journey. With a focus on God's word and a balanced identity, John discusses how understanding his "why" has influenced his leadership and ministry. Discover the significance of knowing who you are as a child of God and why this identity should take precedence over worldly labels.
Explore the rich tapestry of Lutheran worship as we navigate the balance between traditional and contemporary practices. From historical instruments to modern music integration, John sheds light on the evolving landscape of church services. We also challenge common philosophical misconceptions, critiquing Platonic dualism and advocating for a resurrection-centered belief. Gain a deeper understanding of how theology and philosophy intertwine, impacting modern American life and contemporary theology.
Imagine the new heaven and new earth as envisioned in Christian theology. Reflect on joyful reunions, eternal fellowship, and the embrace of absolute truth in a world of subjective realities. John shares creative ways churches can engage their communities, from pumpkin patches to pickleball, emphasizing the need for outreach beyond traditional worship. Learn about the transformative power of Christ's message and how living a life centered on His teachings can make a profound impact. Connect with John and explore more at ChristAustin.org.
Join financial expert Ralph Estep, Jr - Daily tips for balancing your faith and finances.
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Welcome to Lead Time. Tim Allman here with Jack Kauberg. Jack, how you doing, man?
Speaker 2:Doing well. How about yourself? We've both been having some time of rest and recuperation here through the summer, taking our own respective breaks. Yeah it's great to be back.
Speaker 1:It is Getting back after it. Summer is for projects, for rest and relaxation. I'm proud of you and our team, both the ULC team as well as Christ Greenfield man Some really great progress being made this summer. So well, today is a great day to lean in and learn from a new friend of mine. I've been watching John and his ministry from afar through my friend, Jordan Besling, and Jordan said hey, man, you got to talk to my longtime friend and pastor here at Christ Lutheran in inner city, Austin, Texas, and this is John Stenfeld. Let me tell you a little about him. This is what Jordan says a clear and concise confession and a communicator of the word of God. He's consistent in his preparation. Commitment to excellence. This is what Jordan says. He says you're a creative genius and a craftsman with words, and what we're going to be talking about, too, today is one of your projects a number of years back called Singing Through the Scriptures.
Speaker 1:And it's categorized by lectionary A, b and C, the three-year reading cycle for the LCMS, as well as other themes and books in the Bible. So we're going to be leaning into that. But before we get going, john, how are you doing? You feeling good today?
Speaker 4:I'm good, I'm good yeah.
Speaker 1:All right, all right. So you've been at this for gosh, almost 35 years this thing called being a bringer of, administrator of distributor of word and sacrament ministry in the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod for 35 some years, pushing 40 actually and what sustained you? Let's just get into. I'm really into seasons. I listened so to kind of frame this up, I listened to Bob Kolb and Dr Dale Meyer. Dr Kolb and Dr Meyer talking about finishing well, but it wasn't about finishing per se, it was about transitioning well. So what sustained you and what are your thoughts around even transition at this season of Life in Ministry? John, thanks for hanging with us, by the way.
Speaker 4:Yeah, you bet the first and foremost answer is kind of cliche, but it, god, I mean honestly it's god's word. I reading it, meditating on it, uh, hearing it sung. I lately, as the last couple years I've really gotten into christian contemporary music and just hearing the word of god sung to me and the messages day in and day out, I mean it. It really, first and foremost, it absolutely is God in his word. I mean, I know, like I said, it sounds cliche, but it's just, it's true, it's just absolutely true.
Speaker 4:I think also I feel still, even after 35 years, a sense of calling. You know there've been many times and many struggles. I feel still, even after 35 years, a sense of calling. You know there have been many times and many struggles, but I kind of think, like Jeremiah, you know, if you know that's where you're supposed to be, it doesn't really matter what you're going through. You just you know you're supposed to be there and so that's kind of kept me going, just a sense of really that I was called to this and I still feel that call inwardly.
Speaker 4:I think, a good sense of balance. My dad was a pastor and he was a good pastor, but being a pastor, what was most important to him. For me it's not, um, I pastor is what I do. It's not who I am, um, I even have my business card. I have, and it says first of all, I'm, I'm a child of god, I'm a husband, I'm father, and then it has pastor. So trying to keep that balance in my life about what it means to be all these things, that my family, my wife being a child, those things come first before being a pastor, and I think that sense of balance has helped me a lot.
Speaker 2:So you've brought up a um kind of an interesting observation, um, something that we see is super relevant in today's society, which is the idea of identity. That's what I think what you did right now is you gave us a confession of what your identity is. Yeah, right, and how that. So let's talk about that. How does that identity impact, impact you, and how? How do you think we ought to be maybe talking more about this idea of who are we actually right?
Speaker 4:it should shape everything you do I mean you know, you know, nietzsche said, you know he has a why.
Speaker 4:Um can endure almost any how and I think about what is the why your life and what you do? And for me me it starts being a child of God and that shapes from that flows being a husband and a father and then pastor flows. But you know, I was at an inner city church in San Francisco for about 10 and a half years. That I found with some of my members was that the black men and also the Asian men would identify themselves as a black man or as an Asian man or Asian American. I thought you know that's. You are a man who is black, you are a man who is Asian, but that shouldn't define you. Now I know there's going to be a lot of people, but I think, as a child of God, that's where our identity always starts with. That's why God's Word talks about male nor female. Those worldly things cannot be. Who defines us? It's God who defines us, and so for me that shapes everything I do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so the who defines the why?
Speaker 4:Absolutely.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:No doubt about it and I think, the identity conversation. It seems like we round back to that quite a bit and there are so many trappings in ministry and leadership if you miss your identity statement. And.
Speaker 1:I think, I think a lot of the, whether it's power struggles in the local church, in a district or a synod, and like Satan wants to attack and it leads us to have, you know, a lot of fear and control. You know, grab on, grab on, uh, and, and it's about me, whereas when my identity is good, we centered in Jesus and who he says I am, then there's a lightness. I don't try harder, I think if your identity is off, it's this try hard got to go, but when the lightness, the freedom of the gospel comes, it's a try softer. It's like I'm going to do this.
Speaker 1:I'm going to do that.
Speaker 2:Try freely, try freely, try softer.
Speaker 1:So anything to say to that sort of mentality of leadership, then, out of that identity, john.
Speaker 4:Well, I think I'm a guy who loves quotes. I'm a quote master and one of my favorite ones, you know, keeping the main thing, the main thing. I forget who said it, but I think about that constantly in ministry because there's so many pulls at who needs you, what needs you, but try to remember what is the main thing I'm trying to do here, to accomplish here, and when I reflect on that question it kind of centers me again always what is the main thing here? Because it's very easy to get sidetracked from what the main thing is. In preaching, in dealing with people, one of my own struggles is I work with the office and people walk by and want to talk to you and I'm thinking, hey, I'm working on my sermon, hey, I'm doing that, and they're like okay, I'm here to serve people. That person needs my time right now. Now you got to balance it always, but I can't just say sorry, I'm busy, you know. No, they are at that moment the main thing if they need to talk, you know so.
Speaker 1:No, that's so good. So you brought up singing and songs. You even shared. I think it's we're going to get into worship and things here, but you even shared. You love contemporary worship and then I introduced you as one who put together singing through the scriptures, through the lectionary. Some people think those things are mutually exclusive. No, they're not. Modern worship, singing through a lectionary, is very, very interconnected. So tell us about your singing through the scriptures project. What is it and what inspired it?
Speaker 4:Yeah, so back in about 2018 or 19, I can't remember which, but I was going to do a summer sermon series, which I always do, and I was going to do a series on texts that everybody should know. I realized how many of my people didn't know scriptures. So I wrote to 20 pastors. I said send me five texts that everybody should know. I compiled those into 14. And every Sunday I preached on one of those.
Speaker 4:We memorized it, we had it in the bulletin and I thought wouldn't it be fun to write a hymn to go with each one of those texts? So I wrote I've been writing hymns my whole ministry and so I thought I'm going to do up every week. And I did it for 14 weeks. When I got done and went back into the lectionary the three-year cycle again I thought wouldn't it be cool if I could do it every Sunday for three years on one of the texts of that we're reading about Sunday? So I started doing it and I just kept going until I got it done. And so I got the three year cycle done. There were every Sunday on one of the four readings, I wrote a hymn that puts those words of that text into song and then I put it to the tunes that are already in public domain in the hymnal that people would know, because they sing those tunes over and over again.
Speaker 4:And so, yeah, that's kind of where it came from and just kind of well, wouldn't it be cool if I could keep doing it and it just kept going? How?
Speaker 1:cool is that, that's amazing. That is really creative. Can people access it somehow? I?
Speaker 2:How cool is that, that's amazing isn't it that is really creative, can people?
Speaker 1:access it somehow? I mean, is it available?
Speaker 4:Yeah, it's online and, the best part, it's free. We put it in a website. It's organized by text, by theme, by cycle, abc and Sunday of the church year, you know, second Sunday after Lent or in Lent. All that it's just. You can click within 20 seconds, have a hymn that's on text of scripture for your worship, and it's free. So I sent letters, emails, to every president in this district trying to get people to know about it, because that's the main thing to know about it, and we've had probably 500 to 800 hits. I don't know if guys are using it or not. I'm not sure I wish they would, because it's free.
Speaker 4:it's on concordia marketplace, so I'm hoping people see it okay, I've tried to present it best practices so people know about it. But yeah, I just I want people to be able to. I mean, I know how hard is the pastor putting together worship every Sunday and picking hymns and all that stuff. And maybe some pastors that are worship leaders great, have them do it then. But to have a text in verse that you can sing just reinforces the word of God for them.
Speaker 1:So what's the website? What's the website, John?
Speaker 4:It's called, I have to read it. It's called, I have to read it. It's singingthruthescripturescom. Singingthruthescripturescom. All lowercase and I don't know if that matters. But yeah, no, it's great.
Speaker 1:It's great.
Speaker 4:Thank you, it's also great for like devotions or for prayers, because they're all it's rhyme or reverse. I mean, if God's word he was 102. He kept my sermons every Sunday and he made a book of all the hymns so we could read them as devotions Nice.
Speaker 1:Nice. Well, thank you for doing that. What a gift to the body of Christ. And hit it up singingthroughthescripturescom.
Speaker 1:So tell us your thoughts about liturgical contemporary worship. There's a lot of debate, you know, and a lot of folks, I think, that like what we do, or maybe just listen because they want to nitpick on various things. We've gone down this path a number of times and I think we'll be pretty aligned in terms of our views, but I'd love to hear your views on liturgical contemporary worship because I do believe so. I'll set it with this to forsake the Lutheran liturgy is unwise, and to not recognize the heart language of various people in 2024, that's been shaped for better, maybe for worse, but I think mostly for better through modern instrumentation Now, with really great lyrics being written. I gotta say this before I get into this I I heard a I'm not going to use the name, but I heard a, a talk recently from a brother who would not agree with probably what we're going to share right now, and he was knocking over the straw man of lyrics of contemporary songs that were from the 90s or early 2000s.
Speaker 1:You're All I Need, you know, a Sloppy, wet Kiss kind of referring to a number of these quotes, and it's really unfortunate that he's not paid more attention to what's being written more recent, because I would agree with him, we can do better than some of the lyrics of some of the early days in contemporary worship, to be sure. So I'd love to get into the liturgical contemporary conversation, john. What are your thoughts?
Speaker 4:Yeah, well, first of all, just with that, some of the lyrics there are brilliant, incredible theology, great, great language skills. I mean really, really good a. I'm a linguist to the end. I mean I very, very careful about language, um. But some of them, in theology they're good um, so to say. I even did a whole sermon series for my people to introduce them to these songs. I wanted to hear what good stuff is out there, so they would start listening and they've been very appreciative. But I think you know I love liturgy, I love hymnody, that's why I write it and I like writing liturgy too.
Speaker 4:I don't think it has to be one or the other. I don't want to, but I don't think it has to be. I'm going to go back to TLH, page 5 or 15. I don't think it has to be Divine Service 1, divine Service 2. Only we can be liturgical in using the parts of the worship, the prayers, readings, absolution, confession, absolution, those liturgical parts, without it being wrote every Sunday. But instrumentation-wise. Oh my gosh, god's given us this plethora of instruments and beautiful music.
Speaker 2:It's unwise not to use it Well, and this is something like this is just a historical truth. At one point in time, the organ was a contemporary music instrument, right. I mean, the Lutheran church was innovative. Bach was a Lutheran right. I mean, the Lutheran church was innovative, bach was a Lutheran right. And some of the most incredible organ music at one point in time, that was modern, innovative music, right. And so you know how dare we do that Right.
Speaker 4:We have like at my church. We have like at my church. We have one sunny month where we do use a traditional lsb divine service liturgy the rest of the time and it's all organ on that sunny, but the rest of the weeks are written liturgies, um, with a variety of organ, music, a band. You know things that I've written. I've written liturgical pieces also, you know, for an offertory and things like that. So we use those things too, and you know, yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, if you'd like more information on some wonderful new music that's coming out from Lutheran Singer-Songwriters put together for corporate singing, I would invite you to go to the Songwriters Initiative. Songwriters Initiative you can hit that up on YouTube to check out some of the new content that's coming out there. A number of our musicians here are taking part in that. So let's pivot over to philosophy, from contemporary worship to philosophy. I know you got a background there. You dropped Nietzsche earlier.
Speaker 1:That was fascinating, I love it what philosophers, will the modern-day Lutheran theologian do well to pay attention to what is the nature of the relationship in your mind, john, between theology and philosophy? I'm excited about this because I've been digging in here a lot recently too, so go ahead.
Speaker 4:So philosophy was my major in college, so that's my background and I, I, I by nature ask questions. I, I, I, just I ask questions about everything. And I think that's the, I think that's a benefit of philosophy in theology is continue to ask questions. Um, don't be satisfied with what you've been told, but if it's true, true, it's going to hold up under the questions. So to continue to ask um, for me, I'd say, one of the most basic philosophers and I have more to do with philosophies than philosophers great, but um, like dualism and plato, I think that absolute dualism has shaped a lot of our theology that we're not aware of, say that again?
Speaker 2:No, yeah, absolutely I agree.
Speaker 4:And it worries me that many of our pastors don't know how that has crept into our theology. I mean, that's where Gnosticism came from, and a lot of Gnosticism and then heresy of Gnosticism is still in some of our theology.
Speaker 4:If you're preaching at funerals, and so that really concerns me, that guys just don't even know that history of what Plato taught and how that found his way, because we use the same greek words of psique, you know, the soul, or the soul of the body, and we don't realize how that crept into our theology. So that I think it's important, I think some things, like you know, maybe knowing um kirkegaard a little bit, since he's kind of considered the father of existentialism and just kind of because existentialism has so impacted our, our official American lifestyle today.
Speaker 4:I think it's important to kind of know some of that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think people need to know like how, how much like even just going back to any of the Roman Greco stuff is still influencing the theology of today, and its influence is still even in the American Lutheran Church of all branches. Right, can you talk a little bit about the dualism though, because some people like they don't know what that is, they don't understand it. Maybe what would be some practical examples where you see dualism working its way into theology dualism has to do with the the body and the soul.
Speaker 4:Yes, not the body and the soul, and that this separation of two and the idea that, um, your real essence is absolutely dualism. We got the idea your soul is the real essence and the body is just this earthly thing and it's done away with. The soul goes on and lives on how it's invaded. Our theology is that people have this idea that the moment you die, these two things separate. But there's really nothing in the scriptures that talk about that. The only example we have of anything close to it is when Jesus dies and gives up his spirit, his penoima, his breath, not his soul. Or when the little girl dies and Jesus raises her and says her spirit returned to her not her soul, but her spirit. So we have this idea. I teach that immediately upon death, two things separate. The soul lives on as if it's an immortal, which again is not a Christian theological concept. There's a point where we die by virtue of sin and our real hope is in the resurrection.
Speaker 4:It's not in an ongoing life beyond death, it's a resurrection from death. The whole person dies, the whole person is resurrected. But ever since Plato, they have this idea of these two things splitting and going different directions. What's?
Speaker 2:interesting is in the Hebrew context, and you guys can correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that the word soul like literally translates to throat. That's actually.
Speaker 4:Yeah, it's the word, nephesh, I yeah, yeah it's, it's kind of you know, they're hard to define some of those things, but yeah, that it's basically the you that not, it's the metaphysical you, your body's the physical you, that the soul is the not, is the metaphysical you, is that, yeah, you know, but it's still just you well, I don't know who else I could be.
Speaker 1:I have no experience of anything but me in flesh. Yeah, but you'll hear at funerals.
Speaker 4:Oh yeah, I know At funerals you'll hear that's not really Joe laying there, that's just his body Like okay, that's dualistic talk.
Speaker 1:Right, 100%. So what would you say to somebody who said well, what about the thief on the cross, john, you know. I mean today you'll be with me in paradise, go ahead. You got to go off on that, okay.
Speaker 4:So a couple of things. First of all, you have to know, in the language of the Greek there are no commas. I think Jesus actually said verily, I say to you today you will be with me in paradise. I don't think he said today you're going to be. I think I'm saying to you today, which is consistent with what else Luke writes elsewhere and asks how they spoke. So that's one thing. Secondly, where was Jesus later that day? Dead in a grave, right he was dead for three days.
Speaker 4:Scriptures tell us that that's the whole point of the resurrection. He rose from the dead, he wasn't alive somewhere. I believe fully that the person is with, or Christ is with them. God never says you're with, he's with us. Psalm 139,. If I go to the heights, you're there with me. If I go to the depths in the grave, you're there with me.
Speaker 4:So, but that thief of the cross, and also the word paradise. It doesn't say uranos or any kind of idea of heaven. It's a word that we're not really sure what it means in the Greek, that word. So it's a very difficult concept. But the whole, I think the idea, and even if you want to go with the idea of that he is wherever the paradise is, or whatever Jesus means by it. He never says your soul, he says you Again, the whole person, and I believe that that whole person is with Jesus in paradise, absolutely. But I whole person, and I believe that whole person is with jesus in paradise absolutely. But I don't know what that looks like right now, prior to the resurrection that's what I'm, you know, right well, what about in in revelation?
Speaker 3:I'm just playing devil's advocate here I'm right there with you I'm definitely not a gnostic yeah, souls crying out how long?
Speaker 1:what are your thoughts there?
Speaker 4:that's a really good question. I don't know how to answer, but it's funny. But then the problem with that is that they're crying out. They're in pain. Oh, they're in heaven crying out. Something's not right. So that's a very, very, very difficult text. The thing is, whenever I talk with people like this, I can show you 50 texts to your two I don't mean you, but anybody that really talk about this in a different way, and I think any theology that takes away from us pointing to the resurrection is not good theology is not good theology.
Speaker 4:Yeah, our hope in Christ is not that we die and go to heaven, but that we rise from the dead and go to heaven. That distinction is important to make.
Speaker 2:So what is the next thing our person hears when they die? They hear the Lord say get up, right yeah exactly.
Speaker 4:You will be blessed, my father, absolutely. Instantaneous for them.
Speaker 2:Boom say get up, right, yeah, exactly right, absolutely, yeah, instantaneous right boom, regardless of how long that appears to people here on earth, right exactly so there's nothing to worry about, nothing to be afraid of you know,
Speaker 1:there's a lot of teaching, man. I got two things right now, so I'll stay with this train. Um, what about the folks that say they had a near death experience and they saw light? Or, on the other hand, they saw dark and and demonic type figures in the metaphysical reality, whatever that is? Uh, what do you say? If you're making this case that it's instantaneous, what about that? Because it appears like they had some semblance of consciousness.
Speaker 1:Now we're moving into things that we are unscripted does not speak to these things, so we should speak with them with a very much an open hand and I do want to get to the resurrection text because I think we need to, like, double down on the resurrection text, but go ahead. What do you think to that, john?
Speaker 4:what I do say. That is it's like at night, when we dream, when we're dying. I'm sure something is still happening with our brain, but to define what that is is a whole other thing. I don't doubt that they've had weird experiences. I don't know what those are, but now to define that as something different and say I was actually there, well, I don't know about that. I mean so Lazarus, you know Jesus took him back out of heaven and you know that wasn't very nice of Jesus to do that. If that's what he did, he took him back out of heaven and put him back down on earth. I mean, that's pretty crappy. So you know.
Speaker 1:Or the apostle. I got two other ones here. Yeah. Because I think it's more than two to be fair, john, because we've got the apostle Paul also crying out. You know, I desire to depart and be with the Lord. That's far better. I'm walking through all these trouble and trial, but for you it's better if I stay. What do you think to that? I mean, he's got the yeah go ahead.
Speaker 4:But again, that's true, the but that doesn't mean that there isn't a thousand years that happen in between there.
Speaker 2:And then he refers to people that have passed away as sleeping right, so they are resting their sleep.
Speaker 4:And that when Christ comes back, he will raise them along with those who are still alive. You know, first of all he's four. So yeah, I mean, two was just a thrown number.
Speaker 1:I know I'm being silly, it may be four or five. I don't think it's many more than that.
Speaker 4:I've spent 25 years working on this thing. I'm working on a book on this, oh, good, we need books about this. It's kind of a really big topic to me, but anyway, go ahead. I'm sorry.
Speaker 1:Well, it's a huge topic for the church and I'm just bringing up things because I am a 100% resurrection guy we're going to get to that in just a second. I think we have Gnostic tendencies, to be sure, and they need to be shattered. So what about the teaching around Jesus going to declare victory in hell, somewhere between his death and resurrection?
Speaker 4:Okay, now boy, that's another thing I'm working on. I've done a lot of work on this. I don't believe that descent into hell should be in the creed. Oh, that's a big one. It's not in the scriptures. You're referencing 2 Peter there.
Speaker 4:It doesn't say anything about hell. The word is philicate. It's often translated prison, but that same word is the word for the shepherds keeping philike of their shot flocks by night on the night of Jesus' birth. It's a watching, it's a guarding, it doesn't have anything to do with punishment and so this idea, and it also doesn't say anything about dissent.
Speaker 2:Hell has multiple meanings in reality. Right Hell can be eternal damnation. It can also be just place of the dead, where the dead are right.
Speaker 4:There is no Greek or Hebrew word that translates our concept of hell. We've taken Sheol and Hades and Gehenna and Tartarus and we put them all and we've taken, we're reaping and gnashing of teeth and where the fire does not, we've taken all those and put them into an English word hell. That didn't exist for the people in the Bible. And when Jesus says you know they're going to, nobody heard him talking about this eternal place of some with Satan. They heard the garbage dump out back where they used to sacrifice, to Molech the children and stuff and they're burning.
Speaker 2:And they would cremate people yeah.
Speaker 4:So when we say he was descending to hell, okay, there's, no, it's just not there. We're taking some stuff and jumping and that's not good Lutheran theology. We don't do that with language. We shouldn't do that with language. And if you go back far enough to the Apostles' Creed, like the old Roman creed, from where the Apostles' Creed came from, that wasn't part of it. And you go back to Greek and Latin, it wasn't there. So along the way we've made some mistakes with that terminology. I fully believe Jesus suffered hell on the cross while he was paying for our sins, but when it was finished, it was finished. And then when he rose from the dead, he went and preached to the spirits in prison, whatever, whoever they are. He absolutely did that once he rose.
Speaker 2:but putting that between his death and his resurrection, it's in the wrong place right after the resurrection right, like biblically, we can understand hell as a separation from God, a type of death, whether physical or spiritual. A person alive can experience hell if they don't have the gospel right.
Speaker 4:Not to the extreme that it will happen. Yes, yes.
Speaker 1:So, being a pastor that's proclaimed the word of God at many a funeral, myself included here you know I got 100 plus, I'm sure, and you many more your number one resurrection. Give me your top three resurrection texts there's many and give me an Old Testament, if you would. We'll go Old Testament, we'll go Gospel, we'll go Epistle. What are your tops? And it's hard to narrow down, but you've got to preach on these. Yeah, go ahead. What?
Speaker 3:are your tops and it's hard to narrow down but you've got to preach on these.
Speaker 4:Yeah, go ahead. You really caught me, because when I preach for a funeral, I don't look for a text in that way, that's fine. I look for a text that has to do with, somehow, that person's life and the hope that why they always end up with whether the text is it or anything is about the resurrection. I would go first and foremost on the New Testament, jesus, when he says to his sermon to Martha I'm the resurrection life. He doesn't say to Martha, don't worry about your brother, he's in heaven. He points to himself I'm the resurrection, you believe in me, you'll live. So that, first and foremost, that would be the one.
Speaker 2:Paul goes off on the resurrection right. I would point to the first and foremost is to be huge.
Speaker 4:I did Paul's words again, Telling people because he's dealing with people who are sorrowing and he wants to encourage them. How does he encourage them? Oh, they're already there eating dinner with St Peter. No, he points with the resurrection.
Speaker 4:That's the word of hope is. So encourage each other with these words, paul says Old Testament-wise, it's not really probably a resurrection text, but obviously Psalm 23 jumps up. You know the I am with you always, so that I'm going to say, even in death he's with us and he will raise us. And then I am obviously input. But even in death Christ is there with us and I always think that's important to point to that. You know Jesus' words as he's about to depart this earth. You know, in great commission, I am with you always. It's not about me being with you, it's about him being with me. Wherever I am, he's there with me. That, to me, is huge job 19.
Speaker 1:I know that my redeemer lives and on the last day in my flesh I will see the lord, my eyes, and not not another. Um, what would you say in the first? I've heard some folks struggle with 1 Thessalonians 4, in that we're caught up in the air and so we'll be with the Lord forever. There's this kind of rapture theology that's almost a separation from the new creation to a degree. That's certainly not what Paul is getting at. Have you dug deep into what is this meet the Lord in the air kind of thing? Because I've never flown, like what is that all about?
Speaker 4:I mean, in my mind, the way I think of it, is that we're actually going to rise up and the dead will rise from the dead and rise up, and we who are alive will rise up. And he's coming down. I mean, it sounds weird, but you know, I don't. Maybe he's. This is just really spitballing, you know, because he is going to create a new earth. We're going to have a new earth. Maybe we raise up and meet him in the air so we can refashion the earth.
Speaker 1:That's where I have gone numerous times. If you bring together 1 Thessalonians 4 and then 1 Corinthians 15, and being raised imperishable, eternal, powerful, immortal, luther goes off on this in the resurrection reality, I mean you can jump over mountains or these types of things, luther luther uses his imagination big time. But yeah, I kind of think you're raised up and then everything gets swallowed up and recreated and then poof, we're right back down with the lord, perfect relationship with god, self, others, the rest of creation and it's spectacular, living as a resurrected, never to die again, never to sin again, creature in the King's kingdom with Jesus.
Speaker 1:I mean it's going to be unbelievable. So let's kind of, since we're going down this path, let's allow what is the new heaven and new earth reality. Look like to you as you use, and Lutherans can use, our imagination, and Scripture gives us some handles here. I love Revelation 21. I close all of our messages with that no more tears, no more suffering, no more loss. The former things are gone. Behold, I'm making all things new. Any thoughts there about that resurrection reality, john?
Speaker 4:Yeah, first of all, I love that text, that text revelation. My dad's favorite passage was behold, I make all things new. I kind of chuckle when I read that, the whole passage, though, because you said no more tears, no more crying. I'm an emotional person I'm yeah, yeah I will be crying a lot, joy.
Speaker 1:Tears of joy.
Speaker 4:That's right. Yeah, I mean no more sorrow, definitely, but I'm going to be overwhelmed with tears just to see Christ face to face. I mean to be reunited not only with my family, but with my family of God to see Moses and talk to him. I mean, you know some of these people, the great heroes of faith in Hebrews 11, I just preached on Jeff the other day. You know how do you sacrifice your own child to God. I mean to talk to some of these people. Yeah, I don't know what it's going to look like, but I definitely believe. I mean, I think it'll look kind of like the Garden of Eden, but just with a lot more of us there and yeah in fellowship with god.
Speaker 2:I don't see us all sitting in church singing the whole time it's difficult for words to capture that right, like nobody here can really truly comprehend what it would be like to live in the garden, and I think nobody can truly comprehend what it would be like to live in the resurrection, but we know it's far superior to what we experience in this lifetime.
Speaker 4:I hope pickleball's there.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I love sports.
Speaker 1:I love sports. I've often conjectured will there be competition?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't know, I don't know, I know I'll be perfectly satisfied with whatever happens, with the result. You know I just will enjoy moving. You know there's glimpses of eternity. You know God has put eternity into our soul obviously sin and suffering and has tainted it. It's, it's damaged, to be sure. But in Christ, now enveloped by his love and in his spirit, we get glimpses of paradise.
Speaker 1:This side of eternity, when we gather together the love of our family and friends, the good that we do, I think it will just be amplified exponentially. I don't even know, you can't even put a number on it the good and the beauty, everything you know Paul talks about, think about those things that are good and right and true. It will just be that on overdrive there will be no faulty way, no faulty motive. It's hard to fathom. But again, when we're in this is a shout out to we'll have Dr Bierman on here soon but when we're in the groove, living fully human, fully centered in our vocation, our calling, first as a child of God and then as whatever our vocation.
Speaker 1:I think there's various vocations. I think there's still creativity. You just recognize where the ultimate creativity comes from the creator, right. So yeah, there will be just exponential growth. Is there procreation? I don't know. I don't know how all this kind of works. Are there new kind of relationships? I mean, jesus says you're thinking way too small when he's talking about marriage. You don't have any kind of idea what it's going to be, because you have the things of man in mind, not the things of God.
Speaker 1:So it's going to be because you have the things of man in mind, not the things of God. So it's going to be spectacular. And we went down this path because we started talking philosophy. How did we get?
Speaker 2:here, John, well, I think so. This is the truth, like philosophy has influenced all of these conversations and it's kind of like you have to redeem them back to the real understanding of the real theological understanding of it. That is the work that Luther did. He was struggling mightily with the impact of philosophy on theology, trying to undo. In some cases it's useful, in some cases very useful, but it's sometimes very harmful to theology because it can create an alternative worldview of things. John, more to share on that.
Speaker 4:No, it was just something that Tim said I wouldn't say about. I don't know about the whole marriage thing, but I always say we are the bride of Christ. And so that idea that we have a husband there it's Christ, and we all get to be his bride there. I don't know what that looks like, but that intimate relationship with him was pretty cool.
Speaker 1:So you talked about Kierkegaard and existentialism. I think we did a good job of refuting dualism. Anything to say on existentialism.
Speaker 4:The Bible is a book of absolutes existentialism. Just that you know the Bible is a book of absolutes, yeah, and about God's laws, his gospel, how salvation is brought to us. Those are all. Those are not subjects that you can choose. You may have different ways that you interpret it than I do, but it's not subjective and those are objective truth. We're living in a world where we think you just make your own truth. I hate that. Your truth there is no. Your truth there's God's truth. That's all there is.
Speaker 2:It's not a book of tropes that are intended to be applied within a cultural context.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so I just think, understanding where the roots of that come from, because we are living in a world right now, especially in american society, where everybody creates their own identity, creates their own truth, creates their own whatever, instead of operating by absolute absolutes. You know, I?
Speaker 1:I'm prayerful that things will turn. There are cycles in history. I'm a history guy and, I think, gen Z. There's some signs right now that there could be a revival of objective truth in Generation Z today.
Speaker 3:Because they look at the world and it's just it's just not working.
Speaker 1:Where we're finding our identity. This just isn't. It is not. It is not satisfactory. It's kind of fascinating. We're to put a timestamp on this this is our first podcast post.
Speaker 1:The President Trump attempted assassination and I've heard from a number of folks and I'm not going to go down the like oh, we got to go Republican Trump, all that kind of thing. But I have heard some folks that were previously like anti mega, anti-trump. Look at how he stood up with resolve in the face of imminent danger and potential death and said I don't know what else that is, but remarkable courage. Remarkable courage that comes from someplace else rather than cow rated fear, and it comes from God. Right, I don't know where President Trump is in his walk with the Lord, but like that sort of courage in the face of imminent death is a mark of the Christian, isn't it To say you can do whatever you want against me? I know who's?
Speaker 1:I don't know if this is where his mind was at the time, outside of a bullet in the back of his ear. I mean wild how all of that kind of took place, but kind of saying, man, my hope is in something else and I have courage in the here and now, because Christ has been raised from the dead. Anything to say to that kind of move, though, of some folks saying, man, there could be an objective truth. That is outside of me, because this subjective truth, reality, is frankly not working practically, philosophically, spiritually, anything more there, john.
Speaker 4:I'm just hoping you're right. I'm not seeing that yet. Um, I, I I work with a lot of young people with my pickleball teaching and I I'm just not seeing that across the board yet, but I'm hopeful, I'm very hopeful yeah, you know, this concept of truth is something that Pontius Pilate struggled with when he encountered Jesus.
Speaker 2:What is truth, right as he's, as he's weighing his actions with Christ, trying to figure out how much in control am I? Right answer is truth is what God says it is. That's the only real, that's the only real answer. That's the only thing that we have to fall back on. You know the, the word that creates reality by speaking it into existence. That is the ultimate truth.
Speaker 1:All right, just a couple more questions. We're coming down the homestretch. I would be bereft if I did not talk to you about community engagement your congregation is known for. I mean you referenced just pickleball hanging out with young people. What ways are you personally seeking, and as a congregation, to model community engagement and meeting felt needs as a catalyst for sharing the gospel in the context of deep relationships? John?
Speaker 4:Yeah, it's hard here in our community because we're in a wealthy community actually where we are. So the felt needs thing has been a challenge for us the whole time that I've been here. When I was in San Francisco it was easy, you know, providing food, clothing, that kind of stuff, those felt needs. Here people are I'm in the city but it's not poor, and so trying to find ways that we can still serve them. We provide a pumpkin patch. That's a sounds silly but it's a way that we connect with them because there's nothing in the area for them to go shop for pumpkins. So they bring their kids and then you know it's, it's something we do with them. That's been good.
Speaker 4:We have art. Art is really big in our community so we host some art things where we host other groups that want to show their art. They come into the facility and at least it's a contact. We open our building up for community groups of all the AAs, all the support groups, we've got all kinds of different ones that meet. So again, just kind of opening ourselves up to be open for them to be able to do. We built a playground that kids can use. It's shaded, it's free, it's there for them to use instead of walking farther to the park. I mean, those are just some ways that we, you know, try to connect with them. For me personally, honestly, I'm a certified pro in in pickleball, teaching pickleball, so I connect with people all the time through that and it's been interesting to see and most of them are young people, not I know everything older, but it's not after covid become young people and, um, we've had a number of them come to church.
Speaker 4:I had one talking to me wanting to get baptized. I've had a number of them have joined us in our community we do a lot of service projects like the food bank, austin area food bank, or there's a Marbridge house which is for a development developmentally disabled adults, and they come with us to those things that they wouldn't be involved otherwise. So that's been great seeing the kids and I'm just kind of known as the pastor at the courts, I mean. So people will just kind of talk to me sometimes about things you know, what do you think about this? Or I'm dating so-and-so. I don't know what's going on, just things because I'm an older person in their life that they don't mind talking to, because they also like that I. They can quiz me about pickleball and they can bend my ear and it's free advice other than paying for a lesson I love that I'm a strong believer that every pastor needs to have a hobby.
Speaker 1:The way they give into the community, just like you are to, you got to keep your foot and ear to the grindstone, where the, where the people are. For me it's golf, coaching, et cetera developing relationships outside of pouring into the next generation. We we share so many similar, similar philosophies, if you will, for just being a pastor and, frankly, just being a healthy human who has a hobby, that in a way we move our body in anticipation of the resurrection.
Speaker 2:So love that, John Jack, go ahead, yeah, a lot of times churches will resist kind of creating programs that are just outside of worship on Sunday because they say, well, this isn't church. But the reality is like every single church is based on creating relationships with new people. Like that is kind of how mission works and that relationship building. We call that engagement, an interaction and an exchange for some type of value that a person is looking for, and these values are usually something to do or some sort of hope that they need to find because they know something is broken in their life. It may be just the community and the fun of pickleball totally legitimate it might be.
Speaker 2:I have a broken marriage and I need a program to help fix my marriage. These are all felt needs that people have that are easier in many cases to engage with people than just inviting them to come to church on Sunday. But the relationship that you build in these environments give you what we call a relational equity, an authentic relationship that allows you to invite them into a spiritual journey. So I think every church should be leaning into some kind of some kind of expression of this.
Speaker 4:Oh yeah, oh yeah. My one caution is that when I first came to this church, I preached a sermon called Christ Lutheran Club. Because when I saw it.
Speaker 4:it didn't go over very well, but anyway, when I first came I saw a lot of groups but none of it engaged anyone outside the church. It's just to fellowship with each other. Yes, engaged anyone outside the church it's just to fellowship with each other. It's great to fellowship, but you've got to have a bigger vision of how we do things so that we can bring people into that fellowship, not insulate ourselves from them.
Speaker 2:How does that program become an on-ramp for other people?
Speaker 4:Yeah, exactly, I didn't mind that we did these things, but you have to think with eyes that are reaching out, not just turning in you know a hundred percent.
Speaker 1:All right, let's. Uh. We often have guests that say and I'm not inviting you to say anything remarkably controversial, because you already have. You just dismissed the Nicene Creed, for goodness sake, john, I mean, that was very provocative, oh, my goodness. Or at least the ordering of the Nicene Creed nonetheless, all right. So let's talk the LCMS. What do you love? Apostles, apostles Creed, I'm sorry, yeah, the Apostles.
Speaker 4:Creed.
Speaker 1:What do you love about the LCMS and where do we need to grow?
Speaker 4:John, last set of questions here. I love our focus on grace. I love it. I mean, it's so necessary. I love our heritage and our scholarship. You know I so much appreciate, I so appreciate having studied the languages and being graduated from seminary as a theologian, Like, I think, every pastor graduates that way. I love our commitment to God's word. I like overall our community of Concord that I can go across the United States and go from one Lutheran church to another and I feel like I'm in a family, that we're the same thing I could tell when I go there to worship. And I love our hymnody. I do, I love our hymns.
Speaker 4:Where do we grow? I think we need to be more humble. I think we're a little bit arrogant in some of our ways and we need to be more humble. I think we have to have a continued commitment to God's word and a freedom to challenge our confessions and I don't like that. We can't challenge it or you're going outside. No, I again, if it's right, we'll come back and say it's right, but we should be at least able to challenge the things without being persecuted for it.
Speaker 4:So I think that I think we have the more brotherly love and grace and mercy for guys who are trying new things or thinking in a different way. It doesn't mean they've gone astray, we're just so. I think we just have a more grace and mercy with that. And finally, keeping the main thing, the main thing which is the cross and the resurrection. I mean that's what sustains me in my ministry. Whenever I'm down, whenever I forget that God loves me because my life, something's going wrong and trouble in my marriage or my kids or my health, the thing that brings me back always is the cross and a reminder that I don't know all the answers to all these questions, but I know that I know jesus died for me yeah, wow, so good, if, if uh folks are going back.
Speaker 1:I just have to ask this question when you say challenge the confessions, what does that mean to you, and can you give an example or two?
Speaker 4:uh, great example is the creed apostles creed. I don't think that phrase belongs there and if it does, then let's get the wording right about it. Let's say that and get the wording the way peter said it. If that's the because you look up, that's the only reference of why they chose. That is because of Peter's, not the Acts reference, where it says he's in Hades, or from Shaul and Psalm. It's from the Peter passage. Well then, let's say he was in prison. Let's keep the language of Jesus or the scriptures, the language of scripture, and don't change it to guess what it might mean.
Speaker 1:Hey, I'm calling out CTCR right now. Ctcr, do a deep dive into 2 Peter and the descent into hell and the ordering of the Apostles' Creed, please. John needs it done now. I'm with you, john, go ahead. One more thing. I say nothing, you.
Speaker 4:John, go ahead. One more thing. I say nothing like the Lord's Prayer. You know. Jesus said deliver us from the evil one, not from the evil like some nebulous force out there. And I wrote a whole resolution about this for the last convention. It went omnibus. It got to CTCR. They sent me a letter and said it would cause too much disruption to change the language. This is the way people learn it. I thought I don't care how people learn it. This is the way Jesus said it.
Speaker 4:Let's learn what Jesus said we have an enemy, a real enemy, who's out to get us. Let's say it that way. So those are the kind of things that I just kind of you know, Jud.
Speaker 1:So those are the kind of things that I just kind of you know, Chad. Hey, man, I love your passion, I love your desire for deep theology, I love your robust anti-gnostic teaching from your congregation, anti-dualism. We are all of one thing heart, body, mind, spirit fearfully and wonderfully made and we will die because of sin and we will be bodily raised on the last day. And in the meantime, we got work to do, a message to share, to keep the main thing, the main thing Christ and him crucified and risen from the dead, and that the gospel of Jesus would get into the years, that more people would be baptized, saved, brought into his family and given the life which is truly life centered in Jesus, a life wrapped up, enveloped in Christ and his love for us and his indwelling spirit, mobilizing us for love and good deeds for our neighbors. If people want to connect with you, John, how can they do so?
Speaker 4:If you go to our church website, which is ChristAustinorg, you can find me, or yeah, that's probably the best way, because you're not going to memorize my phone number or my email, probably. But yeah, just go to ChristAustinorg.
Speaker 1:Amen.
Speaker 4:Access me through there.
Speaker 1:Shout out to Jordan Bessling man, You've got an awesome pastor partner dude that you get to work with. What a joy. It's a good day, go and make it a great day. Please like, subscribe, comment wherever it is you take in these conversations and we promise to have more long form conversations, provocative conversations I still can't get over the apostles preaching man. This has been so much fun. Get the word out about what the ULC is doing at uniteleadershiporg. Good work, john. What a joy. Thanks, jack. God bless, thank you.