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C.S. Lewis on Screen: Bridging Faith and Film with Todd Freeman | Hot Topic Friday
Can Christian themes hold their own against blockbuster franchises like "Fast and the Furious" and "Iron Man"? Join us as Todd Freeman, a seasoned filmmaker turned ministry director, shares his insights on the power of "suspension of disbelief" and how it allows audiences to embrace even the most fantastical elements in storytelling. We explore why Christian filmmakers have been slow to harness this tool and discuss how authentic stories like "A Most Reluctant Convert," the film about C.S. Lewis, can bridge the gap between faith and film.
What if Christian movies went beyond the wholesome Hallmark feel? In our conversation, we challenge the stereotype and push for a new era of faith-based storytelling characterized by realism and relatability. By examining films like "The Apostle" with Robert Duvall, we illustrate how flawed, complex characters can resonate with broader audiences while subtly conveying profound Christian themes. It's about crafting narratives that speak to the human experience, transcending the boundaries of traditional Christian media.
Can a Christian horror film be both authentic and spiritually enriching? Todd Freeman thinks so, and he draws from his unique upbringing under a Baptist minister father who introduced him to both horror movies and the gospel. We tackle the potential criticisms and discuss the significance of films like "The Passion of the Christ," which set a precedent for raw, unfiltered biblical storytelling. The aim is to create impactful films that stand on their own as great art while opening doors for deeper conversations about faith, much like Michelangelo's Sistine Chapel.
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Well, hello friends, this is Lead Time and this is a special Hot Topics episode. I will be your host today. Jack Kaliberg and I am joined by a returning guest, todd Freeman, in independent film production and directing and writing A really cool career, and now he works in ministry. He's the director of Red Braille Studios, which is actually strongly connected to the church where I work at at Christ Greenfield. Todd, how are you doing today?
Speaker 1:I'm doing great Is there anything before we into a kind of our hot topics questions for today, any kind of background to tell folks a little bit about your story with with film production, before we kind of get into it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, long story short. I was in independent film for about 20, almost 20 years, before my wife and kids and I moved down to Arizona until God started calling me into ministry. So using everything that I had learned in the independent world and applying it to basically missions work and reach new people for Jesus.
Speaker 1:Really cool. So yeah, today we're going to be talking about specifically on the topic of Christian film production, Christian art and specifically the film production side of things. So topic number one why do you believe that film is an important medium for conveying Christian themes, and what unique advantage does film production offer for exploring and communicating these ideas compared to other forms of media? So what makes, I guess, the short of it is what makes films special and effective compared to, let's say, other art forms.
Speaker 2:Right. Well, yeah, you sent me these questions yesterday and I sort of pondered some last night and had a great devotion this morning and some meditation on it and something just sort of popped into my head. There's that thing in movies that people always say and I think the first time I heard it was with my dad is the idea of suspension of disbelief. Yeah, and the idea that anytime you go into a movie or sometimes other aspects of you know whether it's storytelling or those kind of things you have to sort of just give up into the world in which it's being portrayed for you so.
Speaker 2:I think that the idea of suspension of disbelief is very important to what we're going to try and do, as we, you know, get into deeper storytelling and narrative storytelling. The definition I looked up the definition this morning and it says the suspension of disbelief is the avoidance, often described as willing of thinking and logic and understanding something that is unreal or impossible to understand, such as something in a work of fiction, in order to believe it to the sake of enjoying its narrative. Um, that's interesting. So I think that that suspension of disbelief in uh in in in movies is unsurpassed, because everyone's sort of just used to sitting down and going, okay, what's iron man gonna do, or what's Iron man going to do, or what's Spider-Man going to do?
Speaker 2:And you have to just sort of give in to the story that's trying to be conveyed. So I just think it's really interesting that Christians and Christian filmmakers haven't sort of delved into that more. Um, because I think a lot of times you have to. You know it's hard, it's hard to even describe so, like in a movie like fast and the furious, right, and there are these, you know these cars that do these things, that are just impossible.
Speaker 1:Right. You have to suspend your disbelief that such things are not impossible. Right.
Speaker 2:Correct yeah, so in order for the story to play out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so so that in and of itself is sort of the the answer to that question, I think and I had never really thought of it in those terms, because we as Christians sometimes want to skip to the good part. You know what I mean the reality that we know, the peace that we know, and all of those things. But people who don't know Jesus and who don't know what we know need to uh, suspend that disbelief in order to have this experience of their own. They can, uh, that is basically opening a door for Jesus to do what Jesus does, cause I mean we, we don't do anything, we do nothing, god does everything.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So it's just our, our way of sort of just kind of going like have you ever thought about it from this perspective? And being genuine always and never sort of pandering and never putting anyone down and just telling a really great story.
Speaker 1:You know, I am reminded of, and there may be a connection here, and I'm not exactly sure what the connection is, but I remember, probably maybe about a year or two years ago, I watched a movie called A Most Reluctant Convert and the movie was about CS Lewis and it was told in an autobiographical style. So he's kind of talking about his own life and his own faith journey from atheism to belief no-transcript, yeah, and now we have the Bible and what's different from the Bible, like the Bible's telling all these incredible stories. But it happens to be true, yeah, right, it happens to be true, Right, so it's. So we, we kind of lose, you know, we, there's something lost there, right, there's this, some of this presupposition. We're willing to invest more into these things when we're when, when we, when we kind of willingly call it a fable, but then the thing that's being true, we want to resist everything about it, and I think there's a some sort of a connection there and I'm not exactly sure what that connection is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure, and it's actually funny that you brought this up. I wrote down just a couple of things, a couple of notes this morning as I was sort of thinking about it and as you talked about sort of those myths and things. Even Aristotle wrote in poetics in 335 BC.
Speaker 2:that theatrical tragedy can create a sense of terror and pity in viewers. Experiencing these emotions creates a positive sense of catharsis, of purification through purging. In order for the audience to experience these emotions, the characters depicted in a tragedy must be good, appropriate, realistic and consistent. Wow yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and sometimes flawed. Oh, for sure. Yeah, because the Greeks often told stories through these tragedies which dealt with the flaws of the person. Right, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and I think that that's you know. That goes into that idea of sort of that original question, and I like the way that you even asked it. You know what unique advantages does film offer for exploring and communicating these ideas other than other art forms or media? Right, because ultimately you're showing, you're, you're trying to create a piece of entertainment, and they have to sort of give themselves over and go okay, well, I'm not, I'm not judging anything, I'm not doing anything other than what you tell me.
Speaker 2:Everything that's happened before outside of these walls means nothing. And I'm watching this movie and you're going to tell me the story and the rules in which the characters live by and how they are, and either I'm going to connect with that or I'm not. So a lot of times I think that you know Christian films sometimes don't give that reality as well as offer characters that showcase people that are not Christians or not, sometimes not.
Speaker 1:Maybe not realistic. You know, they don't actually reflect.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they don't reflect themselves, they don't see themselves in any of it.
Speaker 1:So let's talk about that. That's kind of. Our next topic is what are your thoughts on the current landscape of Christian filmmaking? How do you see and tied to that is, how do you see your work fitting into whatever challenges that you're seeing in this genre?
Speaker 2:Well, that's a hard question, because I don't necessarily want to go into some sort of diatribe about how bad I think most of these movies are.
Speaker 1:Well, let's be charitable we can say that there's great instances and there's terrible instances, right, it's kind of like you can look at every genre of music and find great examples and horrible examples yeah, yeah, and what?
Speaker 2:yeah, and I, I think christian movies have the biggest problem of defining who they're making a movie for, um, and I think a lot of times um a lot, are not willing to sort of pull that proverbial trigger and say this isn't for um. Maybe christians- right um, because this isn't a youth group right, right, yeah, or this is a, you know, the idea that movies should be for for for more people and be more realistic in their portrayal of others.
Speaker 2:Because I mean I've, I, I have been and am a sinner and I've I have made a lot of mistakes and as a creative, I've been able to sort of delve into a lot of experiences and a lot of people that I've known who aren't Christians. So when you talk about, like social media or something like that, 90% of my social media friends or followers are, are movie, are movie people, and they aren't christians. Yeah, so so in a lot of the things that I do online, I'm kind of constantly riding that line of you know who is the audience for just me, right in general well, that's.
Speaker 1:That's an interesting point, because there's different audiences out there and I think what you could say is a lot of Christian films I'm going to, I'm going to be very stereotypical here, right, and knowing that things are not always a stereotype, so yeah, was it Lifetime or the Hallmark Channel has a stereotype for what it produces, right? So a lot of Christian films couldn't maybe have a sort of Hallmark, hallmark film reputation? It's got a defined audience. That audience is Christians that are looking for something fun and wholesome and little. We just call it light popcorn, you know, a little bit of a, a little bit of a relationship drama, a little bit of whatever you know, and it's fun for the whole family. But that's kind of the audience and so there's a, there's a space for that, right, I've seen some really corny, cheesy Christian movies that were kind of fun in in.
Speaker 1:You know, if you just kind of say, okay, I'm in for that mood right now, you know what I mean, but what it does mean is, if you write a film for that is, you're narrowing your audience down and you're kind of saying in that instance that Christian films are films that are made solely for Christians who live a certain lifestyle and have maybe raised in the faith and you know.
Speaker 2:And I think, honestly, that's the only lane that Christians have made good movies for, right, and I know that's kind of a big thing to say, but I think most of the time that's what Christians are trying to do and I hate to use the term, but I it. You know, all sort of growing up but preaching to the choir and going like, oh, this is what we all know, this is what it is, and we're just going to sit back and and right, but, but revealing these things in new ways, um, is what I'm much more interested in, because you know you even talk about you know, I mean the the idea behind red braille.
Speaker 2:You know the idea that the red letters you know the Bible having the red letters of what Jesus said. He told her arrows and he told these stories about things that didn't always happen, but he there was a morality to the story and it was very specifically usually to an audience that was not um favorable to him, right? So he's trying to tell things in a new way, through a new uh lens, in order to communicate, because, I mean, that's the brilliance of Jesus, especially in the Bible, is you just sit there, you read it and you're just going like? This guy is a master storyteller.
Speaker 1:So there's a lot of Christian content out there, but it might not be depending on the audience. It might not fit the definition of what we would call missional on the audience. It might not fit the definition of what we would call missional in that it's not being designed to reach an audience of people that are not currently believers.
Speaker 2:That's probably the way to say that it may serve a discipleship purpose to teach and strengthen the faith of existing believers.
Speaker 1:Maybe a lot of great content out there for kids now, like there's a whole parallel economy of content for kids. That's faith-based, wonderful stuff I highly recommend it. Right, but there's a lot of people out there who are not interested in an invitation to church but are interested in watching a great story. That's kind of the way I'm thinking about it. Right For sure, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, you know I can more easily. You know we go back to social media, I can more easily go. Hey, you guys, I watched this movie and it was great. You should check it out. And people will go like oh okay, it's a movie and it's not a quote. Unquote Christian movie but it does have Christian themes and the overall morality of the tale is that Jesus saves and with him. A life is better spent with him than without him.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm trying to think if there's any films in recent time that may actually succeed in doing that. Are there any that come to your mind? I can think of one or two.
Speaker 2:Well, it's kind of hard because I mean, I do have a couple of examples, but they're not necessarily quote unquote Christian movies and they're not seen as Christian movies. You know, there was a movie in the 90s called what's the name of it? Oh, the Apostle with Duval, and it's the story of this sort of broken man who happens to be a pastor, and Duval in real life is a very devout Christian. So that's something that I much more align myself with, because they showed this sinful man and he has this I mean, it might be the best movie I've ever seen like scene that I've ever seen he has this drunken fall down on the ground yelling match, which is a prayer that is so unbelievably effective that I sort of kind of start to tear up a little bit when I think of it.
Speaker 2:Just because, that's something that people can identify with. You know, because it's the questions that a lot of these people ask, even in their own minds. You know why, why? Why is there famine? Why is there, you know, all of these bad things happening? You know. So it's like all of this. You know, woe is me god. If there's a god, how can he allow this happen on all of those things. But then by the end of the movie you see sort of this progression of a man into understanding everything that there is to understand about faith.
Speaker 2:So in that sort of inciting incident of this guy's not great Well, like you know all people, but he's. He's especially kind of we'll call it what my mom used to call me, or ornery, ornery, ornery. So so he's especially ordinary and and it shows sort of this character arc, his character arc of not really truly understanding the meaning to fully understanding the meaning, and in that opportunity he's able to have the audience understand how you get from point A to point B, and it's through opening up your heart, because Jesus is, is, is right there waiting.
Speaker 1:Yep. So I'm going to give a personal example of a film that comes to my mind. That kind of sort of does that, and it's from a director that I have a love-hate relationship, that's M Night Shyamalan.
Speaker 2:Signs yeah, Signs is awesome.
Speaker 1:And I think Signs does that. It's a sci-fi horror movie, but what is the story underneath the story? The story underneath the story is actually divine intervention. Isn't that interesting?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and that's a perfect example of the same types of things that I was talking about with the apostle. It's starting with a certain character, a certain way. And that character almost always is maybe more like the audience than not. And then you take him on a journey and people connect with him and fear for his life because they've gotten to know him as a person and what kind of loved him and root for him.
Speaker 2:So any opportunity is sort of storytellers can have christians be the hero is whoa, like that's to get everyone in an audience behind a christian character going like. I'm rooting for you and I want you to succeed on your mission of getting from point A to point Z.
Speaker 1:Very good, okay, so let's hit our next topic. You are in the early development process of an independent film. Which, kind of spicy, it's a Christian horror film, right so, creating a horror movie. And again I, kind of spicy, it's a Christian horror film, right so, creating a horror movie. And again I, I, I kind of mentioned as a, as a case study, signs and actually, you know, you could even point to the passion of the Christ as kind of being in that genre.
Speaker 1:Right, it's kind of a terrifying movie in one sense, but it teaches a very Christian theme, so a Christian horror film might be seen as controversial by some. How do you address the possible criticisms or concerns and what do you hope to achieve by blending these kind of two themes together?
Speaker 2:Well, it's funny that you brought up Passion of Christ kind of two themes together. Well, it's funny that you brought up Passion of Christ One of my favorite stories to tell people is Mel Gibson Sort of famously made this movie and everyone you know was excited. Oh, a big budget movie about Jesus and everyone was excited. And then it came out and there was like a special screening for everyone at TBN yeah. And they got on the air and told everyone to not go see it Wow.
Speaker 2:They said it was perverse and violent. Mel Gibson went to them and he had a sit-down discussion and he said you tell me which part of this is not in the Bible? Was it less horrifying than this? Why would we show it any other way than the way that it was? And I kid you not. The same people went on the air the next day and said we prayed about this and we thought about it, and he's absolutely right, but this isn't a movie for if you're going to take your kids, be warned that this is the real deal violence that took place. So it's just one of those.
Speaker 1:People who saw the real crucifixion would have seen that level of violence in front of this as they're pondering what is the meaning of this man going on the cross Right yeah?
Speaker 2:And it's, and it's, and it's descriptive in the Bible and it's, and it doesn't pull any punches in the Bible.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:So why? Why would we? I think that's my biggest question is, why would we pull sort of these very real punches when telling stories? So I think the thing about the upcoming production is knowing the heart behind the people that are making it.
Speaker 1:So what is?
Speaker 2:the what are we trying to accomplish and what are we trying to do? I think everything in this conversation is a part of the answer, and the answer is if we don't give people a way to identify with us, there's not going to be a way that they're going to be open to hearing new things, things because we've talked about you know, if you, I even wrote a blog about it a year ago and you know if you type in why are christian movies bad?
Speaker 2:there are hundreds of articles that are usually, I would say, 90% from non-Christians watching things objectively, where they weren't able to suspend disbelief.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And that's the storyteller's fault.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:We set the table and then we present it and then in the end there's a moral to the story it and then in the end there's a moral to the story, and either that moral to the story is acceptable in people's eyes based on the story that was told.
Speaker 2:Because sometimes in christian films you're going along and that's the thing that I always talked about with my dad. My dad passed away this year but he raised me on sort of movies, but not only movies, sort of horror movies and these kinds of things. But he was also a Baptist minister. So I watched Night of the Living Dead when I was six years old, saturday night on a 16 millimeter print, and he told us sort of the making of, and then that night we would go to bed and we'd wake up and we'd go to church and listen to my dad sort of preach the gospel. So in doing that he sort of created I don't want to say the monster that I am, but he created the person that I am, person that I am, and everything from that moment when I was six years old up until now.
Speaker 2:I always have wanted to tell a story like this, but it wasn't this exact story, so it's sort of all led to this moment of I've tried to make Christian movies, but I tried to make a Christian movie and that was the problem. I want to make a great movie and I want to watch something.
Speaker 2:I want to make something that I would want to watch and something that would affect me and sort of break my heart a little bit about sort of the world, the broken world in which we live in and the sadness of not knowing jesus, because, as a writer, I've been able to put myself in the shoes of not being able to, um, well, not knowing jesus or not being given the opportunity, uh, to hear the word or to hear, because I mean you. I mean you've read reps like me. There's a lot of scripture and there's a lot of, actually, the the funnest thing to me is a lot of Lutheran specific things from this, this Lutheran pastor.
Speaker 2:So, I just think it's you know when. When you ask, could it be seen as controversial? Uh, yes, but in that same way, when you know mel gibson went to, uh, those folks at tvn I'd be more than happy to sit down with anyone after they watch it and, if they're upset, to talk to them about what elements were not true Right.
Speaker 1:So this is fascinating, kind of bridging the gap. I'm trying to kind of digest a little bit that statement that you said, that a film critic might look at a Christian movie and just say, okay, it's got a Christian theme to it, but let's just evaluate this as a movie, right.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, Because I mean a lot of times.
Speaker 2:I mean, you know, I was talking about my dad and it kind of went off on a tangent there, but my dad always my dad and I always kind of joked about in a quote unquote Christian movie. There's sort of this thing where it starts off and things are going bad for someone, and then they pray about it and then, oh, I needed a new truck and I got a truck because I prayed, and there's those kinds of things you just feel like I'm going to. I'm going to maybe call the S on on that type of thing.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean, because that's, you know, that's, that's not, that's not the way it all, it all works. And then, inevitably, you know, at the three-quarter, uh mark of of a movie, you know a pastor will show up and he'll give a sermon for two minutes, or someone will, and and the whole story just stops right and you just go.
Speaker 1:So that's the part that's kind of the hard to suspend belief kind of part yeah, because they're going.
Speaker 2:Oh, they're just doing this they're right they're trying to trick me and listen or whatever it is, um, so yeah, so, like I say, reps like me has a lot of scripture and a lot of those things, but it comes from character and it makes sense within the story and it serves a purpose within the story for anyone who watches, because it comes from that person's perspective.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Because other people have other perspectives in the movie as well.
Speaker 1:Right, it's kind of like I'm going to give the parallel there's, like architecture or other art forms. Let's just, let's just throw out there, uh, sistine Chapel, michelangelo's you know painting on the ceiling. Um it, it is a very Christian themed painting mural that he puts up there, but it also stands on its own as a phenomenal art piece. Right, so you may be drawn to it as an art critic, even if you aren't a believer, just because it is a phenomenal piece of art. So now you have this phenomenal piece of art that's now preaching to you An interesting story Absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 1:In revealing something to you about the nature of God, or at least what the church asserts about the nature of God.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, and opening that door because I mean that's. I see that as as my number one goal in life and, as I sort of started, took a slight turn uh with with see a truth that I know that will ultimately not only help them but save them.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, this has been a fascinating conversation so far, todd. Do you think is there anything else that you feel like you'd like to add to this conversation? I really feel like we covered a lot of really interesting topics today I'm really excited about the potential of the film.
Speaker 1:I know I'm kind of involved a little bit on the on the behind the scenes, kind of on the administrative side here, but Todd's really the one that's really driving this thing and I'm really excited about it. I've read some versions of the script already and really hoping that we can be successful in this venture. I think it is part of, I think, a new model that may be emerging on how the church actually thinks about engaging with society in general. We have a capacity to deliver great messages on Sunday. We need to have durable messages that talk to people outside of Sunday.
Speaker 2:Right, and that's I think that's Encourage people to go in to the open door that's at the church. Right, you know it's. It's it's the first step 's at the church to hear more. Right, you know it's it's it's the first step. It's sort of that first step of engagement, which is um just having them be willing to hear more. And then also gosh. I just love the idea of people rooting for uh, rooting for Christians, yeah, because that's something that doesn't happen a lot anymore.
Speaker 1:Yep, well, friends, this has been a Hot Topics episode with my dear friend, todd Freeman. Todd, thank you so much. It's been a great conversation. Friends, if you've been enjoying the Lead Time podcast, please consider liking and subscribing on whatever your preferred platform is, and we will see you again with another episode coming up soon. In the meantime, take care. God bless, it's a wonderful day. Make it a great day, thanks.