Lead Time
Lead Time
Don't Miss! Part 2 - The LCMS Has Changed? with Will Sohns and Bob Newton
What if our understanding of Scripture has been too narrow? This episode invites you to explore the profound concept of the Missio Dei—the sending nature of God—with our esteemed guests, Will and Robert Newton. We discuss how God's mission transcends the church, aiming to forgive and transform the entire world. By shifting our focus from an insular to a global perspective, we uncover the heart of God’s call to spread His message universally.
Journey with us as we contrast theological perspectives on missiology, highlighting the views of Ehlert and Luther. We dive deep into the intrinsic nature of God's Word and its mission to reach the ends of the earth, emphasizing Christology as the foundation of missiology. From the universal priesthood of all believers to the central role of forgiveness, this conversation challenges concerns about works righteousness and reaffirms the mission of the church, grounded in God's Word.
Through the transformative stories in the book of Acts, we witness the Holy Spirit transcending boundaries and including diverse groups in God's mission. From Pentecost to the conversion of Cornelius, we reflect on the inclusive nature of the gospel. By revisiting the historical shifts within the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod and its focus on doctrinal purity, we emphasize the need for unity and cooperation among congregations. Join us as we rekindle a missionary spirit within the church, embracing and embodying the heart of God through a renewed sense of purpose and mission.
Join financial expert Ralph Estep, Jr - Daily tips for balancing your faith and finances.
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Happy day, welcome to Lead Time. Jack is not with me today, but I am blessed to have a part two conversation today. If you missed part one, go back and check out part one. With Will and Steve Soans, we spent a lot of time talking about the sending nature of God and we're going to go deep into an article that Will Soans wrote and Robert Newton, who's also our guest today, also contributed to, on the great distraction from the great sending. We're going to talk about how we may, in the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, for a variety of reasons, forgot that the lens of all of Scripture is the sending nature of God, the Missio Dei. So that's where we're going to be hanging out today, and a lot of joy is going to be here in this conversation. So, robert Will, how are you guys doing today?
Speaker 2:We're well, thank you. Thanks for the invite. It's an honor to be back with you, tim. And to be with my good friend Will, Isn't that right?
Speaker 3:And likewise it's great to see Bob again and to see you again, Tim, yesterday. From yesterday, that was an awesome experience with you and I just can't appreciate enough what you are doing, tim.
Speaker 1:Oh man, well, it's just fun. It's fun to talk about where we have opportunities to grow and to do so in a constructive, Jesus-filled, joy-filled, joy-filled way. That's going to be the tenor of our conversation today. So let's start with you, Bob. We heard a lot from Will in part one on the sending nature of God. And, Will, I love how you kind of move from. We talk Missio Dei, to be sure, but really it's the sentness of God to us and then the church to the world. So right before we hit start, Bob, you were talking about how there's a couple of different ways that you can talk about the Missio Dei. Let's start there.
Speaker 2:All right, well, yeah, first, let's quickly. Missio Dei and Will said it's the sentness of God and what's important is the mission of God. Missio Dei, mission of God actually belongs to God himself. We sometimes think it belongs to the church. It belongs to him. He is the sent one of the Father. He said in Matthew 28,. All authority is given to me in heaven, on earth. Now go, basically, if you will go with me into the world, because I'm the sent one of the fathers. So our participation in the mission of God is by virtue of our being joined to Christ in baptism and therefore what he's doing we now do with him, so it's always his.
Speaker 2:But to understand the mission of God, you read a lot of articles or people write where they will find different proof texts in the Bible to defend that the church should be in mission. Huh, so they're proof texting, which is not wrong, it's good, it's all true stuff. But the real way to get at this is to start that the mission of God is the lens through which we read the entire scripture from beginning to end. That tells a missionary story. In fact, a few years ago there was, in a way, a redo of the scriptures called the Story. Do you remember that? And I wish if I could have been around and part of it. I mean, they're always ahead of us, so many evangelicals. But when they told the story, they were still telling the story through the lens of the church rather than through the lens of the world. The scriptures are spoken through the lens of a God for the world, not simply a God for the church. So you need to read the scriptures from that vantage point.
Speaker 1:How prone are we to do that? I mean, that's the nature of sin, right, it's selfishness, it's we want. Everything is about me and my small little context. And Jesus blows our minds. I mean his paradigm, his metanoia shift. It's a mind shift. It's a paradigm shift all the time to say you know what this world is not about you. I have been crucified with Christ. I to say you know what this world is not about you. I have been crucified with Christ. I no longer live. He lives within me. And now, the life that I live, I live in Him for the glory of God, to bring light and love to the world. It's always about the world, but the church can get very, very insular. Anything more to say Will on viewing the Missio Dei, the sentness of God, as our hermeneutic principle.
Speaker 3:Yes, I might just sort of summarize the things that I said yesterday. You know, the Missio Dei is Bob called it the mission of God, but I like to call it the sending of God, because that's what the word mission means, not only from the scriptural standpoint, but from English and Latin, the whole bit. So the sending of God, known as the Missio Dei, which is centered in the sending of Christ into the world, inherently includes the sending of the Holy Spirit by the Father and Jesus and the sending of the followers of Jesus into the world by Jesus, with the task and purpose to send away the sins, and because the word for forgiveness is actually send away in the Greek, to send away sin. So the sending theme and motive, the Missio Dei motif, is literally, as Bob says, throughout all of the scripture and so therefore, since Christ is the center of that, therefore Missio Dei has to be the lens or the hermeneutic by which you interpret, understand and apply the missio day, Amen, Amen.
Speaker 1:So well said Bob.
Speaker 2:Anything more there Well real quick and when you put that lens on, you start reading passages. You see things in passages you might not have seen before. Real quick example Exodus 19.
Speaker 2:The Israelites show up on Mount Horeb or on Sinai and we teach that you saw how I bore you on eagle's wings, brought you to myself. You obey my covenant, you'll be my treasured possession from among all the nations, For the whole world belongs to me. See, it almost becomes invisible, but you are to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. Therefore, israel's call was not that Israel would get to be an exclusive group with the Lord, that she would be his priesthood for the world. So when you mentioned earlier metanoia, when the Lord Jesus says, repent for the kingdom of heaven, it wasn't simply a call to personal salvation to each believer. It was actually a call to Israel to return to the covenant he cut with her on Sinai. When are we going to again be priests to the nations?
Speaker 2:So when he cleansed the temple, was it about just they were putting their thumb on the scale, or was it they were hoarding the gospel from the nations? What's a den of thieves, where you steal the cash or where you hoard it for yourselves? So you read the scriptures through a missions lens. These stories we know so well take on a new understanding and a much deeper and, I think, more accurate portrayal of what God's up to. I love that.
Speaker 3:Just to add this, Tim. The reason that I included 42 narratives or Bible studies in the first book, the Great Sending Book, is because of the lens of the Missio Dei that understands all these scriptures, and in the next book coming out in about a month, there's 52 such Bible studies. Bob Newton did three of them, I think, and he did some in the first book. It's because that's using putting the lens of the Missio Dei at work and to show the church how the Missio Dei lens really operates.
Speaker 1:I love that. So what I forgot to say, we actually have a live audience right now of seven folks that are taking this in, so thanks for hanging out.
Speaker 1:If you guys have. This is the first time we've tried this and I forgot, so anyway, we have a number of guests here. If you want to put any kind of questions in the chat, I'm going to be monitoring that as we keep the conversation going. So let's talk about Luther and the mission of God. You were talking about how Bob Kolb just wrote an article. Put your Kolb hat on right now, bob. What would Bob Kolb say about where we see Luther and the sending God?
Speaker 2:God. Well, kolb will locate it precisely where I think it needs to be located, with Luther and a reflection in a way of I don't know if you know Werner Ehlert's structure of Lutheranism. Ehlert had a little piece on Luther and the mission of God too, and Kolb expands on that. It's a wonderful exposition. Interestingly, just so you hear it, ehlert locates missiology or missions under the church ecclesiology. I think to do it right you have to locate under Christology. Does that make sense? He's still the sent one of the Father. So we didn't take the baton from him. He has it. He's still doing it till the end of time.
Speaker 2:But here's Luther's missiology. He wouldn't have had a missiology like you and me, where we have mission societies. He would have never thought His church, his whole battle, is within the holy Christian church. But for Luther, the mission of God, the sentience of God, locates in the DNA of God's Word. And Ehlert says Luther always saw the Word of God's eyes on the horizon. If I could, in my own words, summarize Luther's understanding of the Word, it would be like this the intrinsic to the word of God are the wings that carry it to the ends of the earth. Intrinsic to the word of God are the wings that carry it. That's Luther, that's his missiology.
Speaker 1:Well, I mean the forgiveness of sins, will. We were talking about this yesterday. I mean there's a sending of a forgiving, proclaiming word that comes to us. God is always speaking and that word has to go forward. So there's a movement forward in even the forgiveness of sins. When Jesus says whoever sins you in your going, what are we going to be doing? We're going to be forgiving sins, justifying, pointing people to the one who justified them and made them right before God, jesus, the crucified and risen one Will. Would you relate forgiveness of sins once again to the sending God?
Speaker 3:The passage in John 20, 21 to 23, says as the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you. And then he talked about receiving the Holy Spirit. And then whoever sins ye remit, they are remitted, etc. Right, there is the ephemi word, which is a sending word and which is actually telling that what Christ did, now the believers in Christ do, and that is to send away forgiveness of sins. That's the purpose of going into the world. That's why I, you know I summarize that a little bit about the sending of God, which is centered in the sending. Christ sends away the sins of the world. And so that same passage is also in Luke 4, where Christ himself refers that Luke 4 is speaking about him when it comes to his ministry, his mission, which was a quote of Isaiah 61. And there are two times in that passage. In that Luke 4 passage is the word apostello used, but two times in that same passage the of hehemi word is used. The sending away of forgiveness is used.
Speaker 3:So, Christ signaled that at the very beginning of his ministry.
Speaker 2:And huge with forgiveness, huge with forgiveness. That's the medium by which God accomplishes the ultimate task, and that is when I am lifted up. I will draw all men to myself. Well, I'm sent out and I send sins away. It's with the intention of drawing you to me, to restore relationships. And that way, forgiveness is penultimate. And I think that's an important point for us, that we don't get our individual Lord Supper. I'm cleansed and I move on rather than recognize. No, you're just pulled back into the body of Christ. That's who you are. You're bought into him, who's head of all things in heaven and on earth. And that means you're with this guy, I'm in Christ now. And where he's going, what he wants to do from his father, we're in 100%. And we don't say I think I like this part of Jesus and I don't like this part of Jesus. It's. We are in him and everything he's about. We are in.
Speaker 1:I think that's so good. Will, yeah, follow up on that.
Speaker 3:Will Well to talk a little bit. We're under the Luther question. Let me quote a little bit directly from what Luther says. Little bit directly from what Luther says when he talked about the am I sending? As Jesus is sending us into the? As Christ was sent into the world, so he sends us for the forgiveness of sins. He says in the volume 69, it is of John 17 and 20, it's his commentary on John 17 and John 20, those two sending passages.
Speaker 3:And he says this is a truly pregnant saying because he talks about that this is the most treasured possession. And then he speaks of it. Why? Because it brings salvation through Jesus Christ. And he talks about that. God opens up his mouth, talking about the word of God, based on the word he uses, the term. God is opening up his mouth there and in that passage he says it contains all salvation and blessings. But he also says, and I quote Luther rejected the premise that the keys of binding and loosing sins has been exclusively to the clergy. Christ's words in John 20 to 23 speaks of the apostles and all of us, all of Christendom, forgiving of sins.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 3:Those are Luther's words.
Speaker 1:I love that. I love that and I think that's where we've maybe, you know, there's some struggles today on the focus. The emphasis is always on the sending God who sends his church and all of the universal priesthood, of all believers. And what are we doing when we get up on a Sunday or whenever it is that we're gathered for corporate worship? We're modeling. We're modeling the words of Jesus so that the church would carry the words of Jesus out to forgive sins.
Speaker 1:And I think there's this, bob, I'd love to get your take on this there's this fear that if we talk about the sending nature of God, that we're going to take responsibility in some way for this, the church is going to kind of say, hey, look at what we're doing. It's going to be works, righteousness or something like that. There's no room for works in this. This is all God's work. I have been crucified with Christ. I no longer live. It's he who lives within me, and the awe and wonder, humility that he includes me, little old me, and you, as proclaimers of his word, model of his word, to carry it out with great humility, pointing all to Christ. This is just the call of the church. It's not a work, it's a fully grace endeavor. Let's talk about this, bob. Evangelism is the most awesome thing. This isn't a work, it's just like it's a calling.
Speaker 1:No matter my vocation, it's a calling to bring the love and peace and mercy and grace, forgiveness of Christ to the world. How could I not Like you? Look at the book of Acts and these guys are like, oh, I got to do all these things for God. Now they've been set free from the law through the work of Jesus Christ.
Speaker 2:Anything more to say there, bob? That's just the real point. And I was just thinking as you were talking Ephesians. He starts off with Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ, by the will of God, to the hagioi, the saints, the saints who are in Ephesus, who are believers. So the word hagioi we always say, separated from the world for God, that's how we say it. You have to go back to again Exodus 19, where the hagioi are God's people who are sprinkled with the blood, just like the tabernacle was sprinkled, it was hagioi. It was sanctified. All the vessels, the altar, everyone, the priest's garments, hagioid. They were set apart, made holy. But that holiness always had an intentionality. We're not separated from the world for God, we're separated from the world for the world with God.
Speaker 2:In other words we stepped across the world's line. Now we're turned around with God facing a broken world and to say send me. Send me, because we're hagioy. And so the whole point of Ephesians. He starts off with you guys are these priests that were started out in Sinai? You're Gentiles, but you're one of us now, baby.
Speaker 2:And then he goes on to say by grace, you're saved through faith, not of yourselves. It's a gift of God, Not a works list. Anyone should boast. So we are your workmanship. Afford me, we are your masterpiece. We reflect the heart of God. Huh, we reflect the heart of God. And what's the heart of God? So, love the world. Huh, that's his heart.
Speaker 2:And to say this is a burden. I have a burden to reflect the heart of God to my neighbor. That's a burden. I mean, think about it. Think about it Because that's what the mission of God, the sentness, is. And now I am in Christ. As you said, I no longer live. Christ lives with me. Life I live. I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me, gave me. I belong to Christ. I don't want to do anything other than what he does. Why would I? I'm his, it's the family business and that is not a drudgery. We've turned it into a drudgery, but it was never meant to be. And then the Holy Spirit coming on us in baptism. It wasn't just that.
Speaker 2:When Peter says to the crowd for the promises for you and your little ones and those who are far off, he used a very intentional word. The word in the Greek is epongelion. Right, and it's the same word Jesus said Y'all wait in Jerusalem until I send you the promise, Until the Spirit comes, the promise which the Father will send in my name. Later on he says John baptized with water Not too many days you'll receive the Spirit. This is not just the Spirit for my salvation, I'm sealed. All those are absolutely true. This specific epangalion is the missionary spirit of Christ poured out on all believers in their baptism, which then has empowered us, encouraged everything about us. So the thought that, oh, I got to do this. Wow, wow, wow. You know it's a strange set of perceptions, I just say it that way, it's just strange.
Speaker 2:One more point with Luther before we leave and Kolb Luther also and Kolb brings it out in his little article the word will go out, whether it's rejected or not. Its issue would be to be received and accepted, but it's not conditioned by whether it'll be received. It will go out because that's its nature and Luther makes that abundantly clear. Whether it's traveled or not, it has to go out and that's, if you will, how we walk with him. We should, especially now.
Speaker 2:I say that now and, so to speak, post-Christendom, where we're feeling we got to circle the wagons as a church body and hunker down why. You know, I heard it after that demographic survey that came out a few years ago that we paid large monies in the synod, that we are to lose 500,000 members in the synod over the next decade, decade. What persuades us to say that when the word is, it wouldn't matter whether 500,000 more leave or the whole nation of America rejects us. It doesn't change what we're about. We're sent End of conversation and God's intentionality is I want my word to go to the ends of the earth. I'd love everyone to receive it, but my heart is to get it to the ends of the earth. I'd love everyone to receive it, but my heart is to get it to the ends of the earth and nothing will slow me down from that endeavor.
Speaker 1:So good, so let's, uh, we'll, we'll follow up on that. Then we're transitioning. Go ahead, brother. You got the final word on on Luther and sending.
Speaker 3:Well, thank you. Well, if he, he makes the Bob use the word sending a whole bunch, and that's where it is at. And that's exactly what Luther talked about when he had his commentary on John 17 and 20. But he did talk about in the John 17 passage that that's why he was sanctified. Jesus was set apart for that and he used the word sanctified. But then he also applied that to all the believers that they were sanctified. And then in that same passage, one verse after another, that's when he said as you, father, have sent me, even so I send you into the world, and so there's no doubt. And that's how come Luther says that this is not for the ministerial office alone. Now I'm quoting but he said for all of Christendom and to each Christian in particular, that this sending was given.
Speaker 1:So I have to draw this through line into Acts, bob, you say, and this promise is for you, we say this in our baptismal liturgy and for your children and for all who are far off. The entire book of Acts is the sending of the message of Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit for all who are far off, even for those guys, even for the messy Gentiles, even for the pagan idolaters, like Jesus came for them Absolutely. And this is like as Lutheran as it gets that who did Jesus die for? The whole world? The whole world. Yeah, amen, amen. So let's keep going on this.
Speaker 3:This is super fun. One quick thing, One quick thing. Go ahead, brother In God sending us into the world, just as Jesus was sent into the world. You've got to focus on the just as. And so that, just as is incredible words, so just as Christ and all that he did is sent into the world, he went to the prostitutes, he went to the Pharisees, etc. Etc. That means that we also go to the prostitutes. He went to the Pharisees, et cetera, et cetera. That means that we also go to those who are woke.
Speaker 3:It means that we go to the whole world. That's not geographical. That's the sinful people that are lost and that need salvation. And so when we as a church body may need to be more concerned about Jesus sending us into the world of all the wokeness and all the problems in the world and the problems of people and et cetera, and not worry so much about our Lutheran identity, Bob, this is good.
Speaker 1:I don't even need to ask you guys questions. Let's just keep rolling, because well.
Speaker 2:I love it. I love it. But you know you mentioned that the book of Acts, where you know it goes, it goes, it goes. It crosses boundaries, hugely in the boundary crossing, you get these funny moments. So Pentecost, a right on the day of Pentecost, the Spirit just blows in, literally and they're all filled with the Spirit. There was no water, there was no, it just did his thing, the way he wanted to do his thing. Then Peter says this is how it normally works In baptism you receive. In baptism in our Savior, you receive forgiveness and you receive this Holy Spirit, the missionary Spirit of Christ. All right things roll along until you get to Philip preaching among the Samaritans, and he baptized with water. But the spirit doesn't come down. And there's a little surprise, I think. They bring Peter and John up. And here's the situation Peter and John lay hands on them and I know some of our dear charismatic brothers and sisters think, oh, it requires that. No, there's an infomercial going on there for the pillars of the church, two out of the big three. They lay hands on unclean Samaritans. Oh dear, did they get cooties in this thing? But they see with their own eyes the Spirit, and this is the proclaiming Spirit because they prophesy.
Speaker 2:Then you launch forward a few chapters to Cornelius while's preaching no water spirit pours out. And they prophesy the same way in the book Acts 2. Each time you cross a major boundary, you're not only saying the gospel wants to get there, but the gospel wants to include them in the getting somewhere else. In other words, they're full heirs with us, not only of salvation, but full heirs in, because it's a Revelation 5. What we're heirs of the world. It says we're heirs of the world. What does that mean, except that we have been given the world to share the love of God with? It's our world, huh.
Speaker 2:It's like the older brother didn't want to go find his brother who'd wandered off in Luke 15. It was his, but he didn't realize. To go find his brother who'd wandered off in Luke 15. It was his, but he didn't realize it was his, huh. Nor did he realize his dad's love. That's why he thought all of it, as you said, was drudgery. And his dad said son, you've been with me forever and everything I have belongs to you. If you knew my love, son, in your heart, this would not be a conversation. You would have been racing after your little brother because you would have known my love for you that much. You couldn't help, but I got to go get my brother. I got to. God loves us. It's so simple.
Speaker 1:It's so simple. Well, we simply miss it sometimes, don't we? Yeah?
Speaker 3:Well, one more quote from Luther. Okay, Bring it. He says that we should all become apostles of Christ Apostles, and that we are maybe small, letter A, but we are not going to become the 12 apostles. But he calls us apostles in his commentary. And then he says to follow up with Bob, to serve all people All people that's what he means by the world so that they may come to God to be saved.
Speaker 1:We are called to bring the word to the woke. I love that. Will you know what?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're in on pop culture today. I'm going to put that on a call to bring the word to the woke.
Speaker 1:I'm going to put that somewhere. There it is, and I think we have this older brother tendency, don't we? I think we've've had it, we've been in it all the time. Now you guys need to look like us, down like us, think like us, and these people are coming in, they're all dirty, they're connected to the wrong you know, not just religious, if they even are religious or wrong political party or whatever. The world's going to hell. In a handbasket. I can go down that kind of dark.
Speaker 1:I think the holy spirit, spirit, is just like saying don't you know who I am? The fruit that I give is love and joy and peace, like you were in all of this. So as you look out at the world, you don't have to be worried, angry, fearful. You can be curious. You certainly should know the days in which you live. But come on, my love is for the world and I think in the LCMS we just need more of an infusion of joy. We talk about joy, an awful lot, joy which leads us to curiosity rather than condemnation, and joy which centers us on the joy giver and his mission to get all his kids back.
Speaker 1:But you've documented in your wonderful paper there Will the great Distractions from the Great Sending. You tell the story of the synod shifting toward purity of doctrine rather than the mission of God. We're going back here, people, in the 1917 Synod Convention, and so I'm curious did this shift contribute in any way, even a hundred plus years later, to the still confessional missional divide we see within the Lutheran Church? Missouri Synod Will I'll give it to you Tell us a little bit of that story of the 1917 Synod Convention? Was anybody you know Will at the 1917 Synod Convention?
Speaker 2:I'm just curious about that Maybe it was Will was there.
Speaker 1:Will was there Not quite, not quite.
Speaker 3:I was one of the guys that was an usher.
Speaker 1:I love it. So, how do you, how do you figure this out? Like that's going way back.
Speaker 3:Well, let me give you the story here and I'll try to keep it as brief as possible.
Speaker 3:But I think it's important to note why I did what I did. When I became a circuit counselor way back in the 60s, and then a district president, and then on the Commission on Constitutional Matters, all of those things drove me to really study the history and to study all the things that had happened in the past and how it affected the mission of the church. Even though those things had to do with church polity and the constitution and bylaws and all that stuff, I never lost my love and passion for the mission of Christ and the sending, and I always was teaching, you know the sending. And so what happened is is that I figured that if I was going to be a circuit counselor, a district president and CCM guy with integrity, I better really know the history of how we got where we are. And so, therefore, I decided to read, for instance, all the proceedings, every proceeding, read it a couple times from 1917 till today, and that was quite a task, I'll tell you I needed a lot of prayers.
Speaker 3:And so that's why I put it into that document the way I did, because it's all documented. I needed to document it. But what led to 1917, it really started in 1851. We needed to have in 1851, we needed that church and ministry document which Walter authored in the convention passed in 1851 on church and ministry. But that was done because that was the context in which they were needing to that was the urgent thing to talk about. That was the urgent thing on their mind.
Speaker 3:I call it the tyranny of urgency, because whatever the urgent things became, that took our mind off of the Missio Dei, and so that's where it started, and then it had to be kept up after that. And just so you have the background that there's four major state doctrinal statements in the Senate since its history, just four. There are a lot of doctrinal resolutions but only four major doctrinal statements which requires a different subscription when we talk about that in the Senate, and those four began with that document in 1851.
Speaker 3:And then in 1883, you had the document on predestination and that was a major statement, and 1932 was the brief statement and that applies to what happened in 1917. That's why.
Speaker 2:I need to mention that.
Speaker 3:And then we basically carried out that same theme in 1973 when we passed the statement on biblical or scriptural and confessional principles. Biblical or scriptural and confessional principles it all sort of centered on the Bible, the scriptures and how we look at scriptures, and then the church and ministry thing centered in on ecclesiastical matters and ecclesiology, but it also emphasized the importance of the laity.
Speaker 3:But that became the 1851 document, literally became a controversy when there was a discussion, or I should say problems, with Article 5 and Article 14 of the Augsburg Confession and a misunderstanding of all of that.
Speaker 3:And so how this all developed then is that finally, in 1917, when the Constitution was revised, you have to understand that this brief statement, which all centered in the scripture, and understanding scripture, that that was already in development before 1917. And so the history of this thing is then that in 1854, the Constitution of 1847 was clarified and it listed, for instance, the reason for forming a synodical union, and the German word for reason, by the way, is Grunde, which means the ground, the ground of our synod. It listed. The first thing that it listed in 1854 as well as in 1847, was Acts 15, 1 to 31. Now, unfortunately, that passage began to be misused and abused, because many were saying well, that's the only reason for a synod and why we get together and have conventions and council, because that was the council of Jerusalem. But that's unfortunate, because it was put into the Constitution because of the content of Acts 15.
Speaker 3:It had to do with the whole matter of circumcision and how are we saved, and it had to do with the fact that we're saved all by the Gentiles and everybody is saved the same way through Jesus Christ. That was the heart of Acts 15, for goodness sake. And then, secondly, in Acts 15, peter quoted Amos and Scripture and used the word of God the word of God, bob in order to prove that this was the mission of the church. That's Acts 15. And so now we look at Acts 15 as if it's church polity, and so that's ridiculous. And so 1917, even though it used Acts 15, it was misunderstood even at number one after the Acts 15, the ground of it.
Speaker 3:And then it listed the extension of the kingdom of God. That's how it said it.
Speaker 3:But, then in 1917, now you get to 1917, and they completely changed it. They changed the order, they changed the priority. The priority then became the whole matter of let me read it here exactly the conservation and promotion of the unity of the true faith and a united defense against schism and sectarianism. That became the priority. Following that then was at least that, thank God the joint extension of the kingdom of God. But the joint extension of the kingdom of God, which was priority in 1854, which was priority in 1854, was now put into a second place, and that was done in 1917.
Speaker 1:So we put ecclesiology above missiology? Is that the?
Speaker 2:way you Defending the faith above, proclaiming the faith Now they're not always exclusive.
Speaker 2:I defend the faith, I proclaim the faith when I defend the faith. But, believe it or not, this, as Will's saying it, the currents in the river, so to speak, go all the way back to the 17th century when the Roman Catholics pushed back on the Lutherans, accusing us of not being apostolic because we were not going to the ends of the earth. And our Lutheran fathers at that time perhaps a loved one, I love him too Johann Gerhardt said actually apostolic means we have apostolic doctrine, correctly, whether or not we go to the ends of the earth. And that division at that moment set two streams up in the Lutheran church that keep poking their heads up, and that's what Will's describing in our own synod.
Speaker 3:I'm just saying that they publicized and promoted the new constitution and bylaws as the just simply as a revision to make it a future thing. I mean to say the same thing as 1854. But that was a lie. It was actually literally a lie because they changed that right at the beginning of the Constitution. And then what happened after that? Going into the future history of this, in the 1979 convention there was a task force that proposed to focus back on the 1854 Constitution and change the priority again. That was in 1979. It was thwarted at that convention.
Speaker 1:They did not accept it. They wanted to change it back.
Speaker 3:They wanted to change it back. Will the task force wanted to change it back?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and they didn't vote it in.
Speaker 3:It was great that they wanted to do that in 79. I was at the convention, but it was thwarted, it was declined, All right. But then again, in 2010, the Blue Ribbon Task Force on Structure and Governance decided it would like to bring it back up again and make the changes back to the priority of the Missio Dei. Well, we had such kickback on that that we couldn't do it and we took it off of the floor of the convention. And so you see where the people of the church, pastors and congregations are going with this. They really consider the keeping of the faith and the unity and in a matter of schism, and what have you as the priority?
Speaker 1:So Bob, on what grounds? I'm just trying to wrap my head. I'm really trying to understand, not with condemnation, but truly with curiosity, what is the theological grounds for not putting the Missio Dei as a number one priority and then the church, in line with that, sending God carrying his word to the world? I mean, how do they theologically define it? Because I haven't heard the argument.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Well, what's interesting and I think it was an argument, and this is where bob cole would be helpful again.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but the historian the 17th century.
Speaker 2:Uh, you know, post-reformation um found a number of roman lutherans going back to the roman catholic church on the basis of this, bellarmine the jesuit, who came up with this argument. Uh, it was so compelling that lans were maybe we're wrong, we're not the true apostolic church, so they're stuck. How do we prove we're apostolic if we're not sending people to the ends of the earth? That's the practical question. So, unfortunately, you redefine apostolic and you decide that apostolic means true doctrine, apostles creed, apostolic doctrine. We keep the apostolic doctrine, therefore we're apostolic. And that set up an unfortunate schism division between apostolic doctrine and apostolic action, which are intended to be one and the same thing. As soon as you pulled those two apart, which we did in the 17th century, it gave permission to go one way or the other, or to assume keeping apostolic doctrine is apostolic, whether or not you go anywhere. And you think, tim, nowadays, when you've got pastors that say I'm doing the mission of God by preaching faithfully on my church on Sunday morning and God will bring them to me, it's coming back from that incredible divide.
Speaker 2:One other piece and an article some years ago by a guy named John Kraminga, excellent article, who was president at the time of Calvin, theological Sam. But he was talking about confessions as such and he said they serve three purposes. The first is they're an evangelical proclamation of the gospel to the world, or in this case to the larger church. Two, they are pedagogical instruments for training little ones and our teachers, and three ones and our teachers. And three, they norm our teachers. All right, those three functions you can see in our Book of Concord, all three in spades, right? He said they all start out that way. But after one generation, almost always the evangelistic outreach purpose of the confessions goes away and what you have left are pedagogy and norming your teachers. Those remain and the evangelical character of the confessions just dissipates.
Speaker 2:Fascinating insight. He was talking from a Reformed perspective, but less than 100 years after Luther's death we did that, and so the 17th century becomes literally slamming the door on missions. If you went into the literature of the 17th century it'd make your hair stand on end, it makes mine end and I don't even have hair. But it's not until the end of that century with, believe it or not, a revival of faith and piety. You can call it pietism, it gets off track. But the early stuff is just a revival of knowing Jesus, his love, that launches Lutheran missions into the world, that movement at the end of the 17th century. So we're kind of reliving this stuff. But the divides start and you can't defend it biblically. We defended it pragmatically and we're still wooing today.
Speaker 3:But when you understand Scripture and the mystery of the day is the lens you understand that this whole word apostolic under the Holy Christian Apostolic Church. When you look at all of the scriptures, it has to do with ascending, it has to do with missionary, and that's how come Bob Scuderi called that the Holy Christian Missionary Church. And he made a study of this and going back to the 17th century too. Bob, you may have noticed or read what Bob Scuderi did on that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, his little piece on apostolic and he has, by the way, an article in this most current Lutheran Mission Matters where he picks that conversation up again. It just came to me. I just got the hard copy yesterday in the mailbox, but you can get it online and there are several excellent articles in this particular issue of Lutheran Mission Matters where it's looking at church and mission.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I just got mine yesterday too, but I haven't read it yet. Well, it's worth reading.
Speaker 2:I know the co-editor really really well.
Speaker 1:I love it.
Speaker 3:So we're coming down the home stretcher, this guy it's bob newton.
Speaker 2:I know I don't. I did it with schumacher, I did it with will schumacher. We co-edited this one, but we had just a number of great guys right for it. Just good guys so good. So we guys and women, I should say good people, good men and women and will sch say Good people, good men and women, amen.
Speaker 3:Will Schumacher is doing some pieces in my new book too, called God's.
Speaker 1:Sending Heart so good. So we have nine guests actually listening in right now. Folks have been commenting Thanks, robin, steve, for pumping. Lutheran Missions Matters Good stuff. So let's dig into the ecclesiastical supervision conversation. Yay, and purity of doctrine becoming very clear. So your article Will points out that ecclesiastical supervision and purity of doctrine become very clear as a priority, an emphasis during doctrinal pressure points, ie seminates right. So how does this play into the church losing her sending focus?
Speaker 3:Will Well, it plays into it because of the fact that ecclesiastical supervision has the responsibility of seeing to it that all the resolutions of the Senate are carried out. That's just one of the responsibilities. That means that they really are. According to the history of district presidents, by the way, I did for the district presidents when I was a district president I don't think Bob was there yet I did a whole piece, a very large piece that would make a book actually, on episcopate in the Lutheran Church, missouri Synod.
Speaker 3:That had to do about ecclesiastical supervision, and I did a historical piece on that.
Speaker 3:I went all the way back to Luther, etc.
Speaker 3:And, by the way, bob Kolb was out in Germany at that time and I got a hold of him and asked him to do a little research for me while he was there, which he did, in which he sent me some stuff in order that I might have documentation of everything.
Speaker 3:Well, that piece on ecclesiastical supervision indicated that they mainly are teachers and as teachers they have a responsibility to teach the Missio Dei, and so I quite frankly, in a kind way evangelical way, find fault that they just are business as usual, bureaucratic stuff instead of being teachers of the pastors and congregations under which they have supervision and therefore, for instance, in 1991, when the CTCR put out that thing on on the mission of the church I forget the exact name of it, bob, I may remember it uh, they should have at that time had the responsibility to see to it because that's the words that's used in the constitution see to it that they carry out the resolutions of the senate. Well, that meant they should have seen to it that every congregation and pastor really studied that document. That didn't happen. It didn't happen, and so I'm not sure if I'm answering your question. But ecclesiastical supervision, as I said, in that document of the great distractions, had a major responsibility and I feel that they didn't carry it out.
Speaker 1:Well, you hear from time to time, even today, various leaders just referring back to synodic convention, go back to synodic convention and I'm sorry to get kind of just super pointed here, but I would love to hear the same emphasis on get back into the Word, get back into the community, reach the lost, start new ministry. The same emphasis, too much emphasis. I've been the last three Synod conventions. Way too much emphasis is spent on us as a church rather than us as a church engaging the world.
Speaker 2:We're imbalanced, we're imbalanced, so Anything more to say there, bob, with the imbalance is something even deeper, because even when a few conventions ago, the Synod decided to give the president of the Synod power over ecclesiastical supervision, to challenge the supervision of district presidents, they missed the point of the early Synod. Synod never gave that authority to the president institutionally. They said his authority get this, his authority for leading the synod and supervising it is proclaiming God's word. As he teaches the word of God, he will be supervising the church. So there was no coercive power. You know, I can hire a fire, I can get you out of here and that's how I'll make you do what I need. It was always the persuasion solely on the Word of God, and as soon as we decided that wasn't working strongly enough, effectively enough, quickly enough, we opted for the follies of man to supersede the power of the word.
Speaker 1:Well, and we're firmly entrenched in those small little siloed tribes now, and it's very unfortunate. A major point of this podcast is to try to learn from brothers and sisters, hopefully connected to the word and good Lutheran theology, how we can listen and love and care for one another. But, bob, why don't you think and you as a district president, you kind of saw this why don't you think very many leaders, pastors, are talking to leaders and pastors who are different than us? I mean, what are some of the greatest fears that you see right now in the church that are keeping us from connecting deeply one to another? And I think the mission of God, the sending nature of God for me you know this is radically Lutheran for the world, for obviously the church, like this, should be a rallying cry for us right now, but I don't know that necessarily is. So why aren't we talking to one another and keeping the main thing, the main thing?
Speaker 2:Well, here's, and so I'm assuming in that why doesn't pastor A of LCMS work with pastor B in the LCMS? Yeah, rather than going out? I think there was more, once upon a time, cooperation prior to the walkout Circuits would gather together to plant a new church. They just tended to think that, huh, and over time we didn't only silo as districts, we began to silo as circuits, and actually the suspicion, the whole notion that I mean we are correcting doctrine on steroids, where brothers are constantly monitoring the behavior of brothers instead of how do I walk with you? Let's do two churches, let's go plan a third one. You know, let's do this. It's. You know, I saw that in your bulletin you had a lay woman read the epistle lesson.
Speaker 2:I have an issue with that, you know. I mean it's just upside down, so pastors say yeah, and then you might get pastors that are just yawning regarding the mission of God and you got one or two pastors in the circuit that say let's go. They just say I don't have time for a circuit meeting, I'm out of here, which I wish they wouldn't, because I think they're needed. If we're ever going to help each other, get back in step with the Lord, jesus Christ. We need to invest in our brothers, to stop acting like I can go it alone.
Speaker 2:You can't do it. I promise you, if you're going to enter into the arena that Satan claims to own, you're not going alone. It can't be done. You need your brothers, you need your sisters in Christ. So that's my cry and maybe, as we continue to suffer a little bit the way we are, and you do see congregations declining a lot of it because they didn't reach out, they're being required to look at each other and say, hey, I need you, and maybe that's a first step in cooperation. I love that.
Speaker 1:Will anything yeah?
Speaker 3:I couldn't hardly say it any better than what Bob has said. He's our prime missiologist, by the way, in the Senate, and he's so articulate, you know, I can't even get up to him. But I want to just add another factor to that. Maybe it's a misunderstanding among pastors of what is evangelical, what is confessional and what is missional. I think we've lost a unity of understanding and I hope that the use of the Missio Dei and understanding the Missio Dei and this is one of the reasons why I decided to write those books, because God nudged me so much that he said to Will, you're not finished yet at my age.
Speaker 3:But I'm serious about that and maybe Bob can talk about that too because I think that we don't understand totally how those three things mesh together evangelical, confessional, missional and, if you want to add, orthodox. I don't think that any one of those are exclusive. If we understand the Missio Dei as the lens to understand the confessions, as the lens to understand the church, as the lens to understand the world, and all started with understanding and interpreting the scriptures, that's how come Martin Fransman, for me, was one of my best profs and his hymn Thy Strong Word Did Cleave the Darkness. It's only that strong word because missio Dei is based on God's word that we can really even understand what it means to be evangelical, gospel-centered, and what it means to be confessional and what it means to be missional.
Speaker 2:Really quickly with that, willie, spot on. Think of, let's take a cornerstone from, let's say, a church planted in the 19th century, st Peter's or whatever you want to put as a first word Evangelical Lutheran Church, evangelica, all right. Evangelical Lutheran Church of the unaltered Augsburg Confession. So our goal is evangelical, which not only was we have the gospel, but, as Luther said, is evangelical, which not only was we have the gospel, but, as Luther said, having the gospel means it's going to go out. It's got to do it. We're running behind the gospel. That's all wrapped up in it. It's going. We got to try to keep up.
Speaker 2:And when I was on the mission field I was out of breath, trying to keep up with the Holy Spirit. It's like Rahab saying to the two spies. It's like Rahab saying to the two spies we have heard, we have heard. How did the word get to Rahab before Israel did help me out here? See, you can't keep up. So anyway, evangelical carries this energy with it. Evangelical Lutheran church of the unaltered Augsburg Confession. So we're saying that what our understanding of this Evangelica, both the content and the energy, is framed in the Augsburg Confession. That's what we say Now, tim, note the change in language from Evangelical Lutheran Church. We're always hearing. I'm a part of the confessional Lutheran. See what they did. They took and by the time when, leaving evangelical and putting this or we're confessional Lutherans, we're confessional Lutherans distinguishing ourselves from. But as soon as they relabeled themselves and put confessions as the train driving, the engine driving the train, you radically change the DNA in the heart of this church body.
Speaker 1:Isn't it funny how wordy we are, how words shape culture, how words can either build up, send out, lead toward dreaming, or words can lead toward protection and and fear, uh, scarcity. And our God is a God of radical abundance and that word is going out in a beautiful way. One last question here, guys, this has been awesome. Um, we we? Already the last question. It's amazing, isn't it? I got, I don't know, I'm actually a pastor, well still, and I got to meet with one of our leaders. So you guys are pastoring, though far beyond me, but nonetheless, I think one of the biggest struggles right now is a lack of mission-oriented new start vision in the LCMS right now. So let's just close with talking about a vision for reversing our decline in churches, members and leaders.
Speaker 2:Bob go ahead. Well, first, my hat off to Will. Real quick. With Will I didn't share it early on I was a Sem4 seminarian. I'd wanted to be a missionary from when I was 10. You heard that in the interview you and I did before. As I went through the Sem I never stopped wanting to be a missionary. But that vision sort of dissipated because you think, pastor, pastor, pastor. So Will Soans had become at that time the acting chairman of Board for Mission Services. Because of the walkout they were in chaos. Will stepped in as the acting chair of Board for Missions. He came to the seminary and he put a plea out for the nations and Will Soans pierced my heart. Will Soans here nailed me in my heart. The Lord sent that same knife he sent into my heart when I was 10 years old, but it came through the mouth of Will.
Speaker 1:So I've always reminded him that he was the one that rekindled that missionary fire.
Speaker 2:So anyway, but back to this thing. The reason I say Will the two books he put out. He's trying his hardest to inform winsomely of the missionary heart of God. Winsomely, he's not trying to be polemical, he's not trying to be mean, just that, dave Meyer, with Mission Partners Platform, how can we positively bring people? And where we are now is they've got.
Speaker 2:There are many, many like-minded saints. We're here here, here, we're scattered. We don't really have a vocal platform. Our official publications really aren't drawing that particular energy up. It's not they're bad things, they're just not dedicated to that energy. So how do we put energy into it? To gather the willing, and when that begins to happen and they see they're not alone, there's momentum and they will begin to speak with joy and gladness. And I think it's through that process we recover the missionary heart of God as our own hearts. Here's my simple word for discipleship Knowing the heart of God and embracing it as your own. That's just it. And so people say, hey, count me in, count me in, but they have to have a flag up, the flagpole that they can gather around. And I think that's what we need to be doing right now. And then we gather, let's plant a church.
Speaker 1:Let's plant lots of churches to be sure. Will go ahead.
Speaker 3:Well, that's how come I titled this new book, steve, and I did as far as God's sending heart, god's heart for the world, beating through the baptized in Christ. But to answer your question, bob already answered it about my two books, but I would say that I would add that if we can encourage the pastors and congregations, as the books do, because they've gotten over 90 Bible studies on the mission if we can encourage them to immerse in God's Word, I mean, god's Word is the Missio Dei. Missio Dei just bleeds out through the whole scriptures, and so it's God's strong word that changes hearts alone. It's the power of God's word, and that's how come the synod got together. Walter, in his 1848 address, said that the power of the synod is simply to let God's Word advise us. Let God's Word advise us.
Speaker 1:And that Word is a sending Word, to be sure.
Speaker 1:So we don't need to say anything more, anything less than what Jesus has already told us as the church and the story that we get to tell the book of Acts coming alive right now, describing the work of the Holy Spirit, and we want to be about positively describing the work of the Holy Spirit. So this is a podcast of the work of the Holy Spirit. So this is a podcast of the Unite Leadership Collective. We're simply trying to be a part of that conversation and if you've listened to these brothers and you've got a difference of opinion based on scripture and the confessions, you have a fast track into a conversation with me, because I would love to hear it, and we will treat one another with kindness and care as we grow up into Jesus. Who is our head, our leader, our Lord. Bob, if people want to connect with you, how can they do?
Speaker 2:so Some have already from your previous podcast and I've loved that conversation. But the best way to get to me is R as in Robert, D as in David, so R-D-N-E-W-T-O-N-4-6-1 at gmailcom.
Speaker 1:That's a funny email, bob. It's cool. I'm glad people wrote it down, will, how can people connect with you?
Speaker 3:Well, soanswill at gmailcom.
Speaker 1:Amen, amen, soanswill at gmailcom. So sorry for busting you up there, Bob. What does 461 stand for, brother?
Speaker 2:It's an old ad.
Speaker 1:It's a personal, I tried.
Speaker 2:Robert. I tried RD Newton at gmail. Nah, robert Newton not Newton, robert not Bob, not I mean. So I finally had to add some letters and I can remember those three from childhood.
Speaker 1:You're awesome, dude, this has been so much fun. If you listen to this and you didn't have a smile on your face through part of the conversation, I don't know what's wrong. Man, the grumpy gene has got you. Let the joy of Jesus be your strength, carrying you out in love and mission and ministry, out into a dark and dying world. The days are too short for us to live as grumpy, internally focused, protective, fear-based Lutherans. Our Lutheran evangelical center moves us out and God is ahead of us. We're not leading, he is leading, we're simply catching up.
Speaker 1:I love that picture and as he looks back at us, I see like a fatherly grin like here we go, this is going to be fun, and we catch up and we just want to ride along. He actually picks us up, he carries us. He's the fuel for our fire to carry the gospel to all the nations. And what an awesome opportunity to spend time with you today. Listener, and for those who are in the live audience today, thanks for joining us. We'll be doing that more often into the future. Sharing is caring, like, subscribe, comment, wherever it is you take in these conversations. And yeah, jesus has great things in store for the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod and we want to be a part of that. It's a good day. Go and make it a great day, bob Will. Wonderful, wonderful work friends.
Speaker 3:God be with you, Tim.
Speaker 2:God bless you and the continued ministry of this podcast. Thank you, thanks, buddy. Thank you, thank you.