Lead Time
Lead Time
From Viral Video to Lifelong Mission | Mike Warneke: Journey of Faith and Hope in Uganda
What if you were called to action by a viral video and found yourself on a mission halfway across the world? Meet Mike Warneke, the passionate founder of Fields of Dreams Uganda, whose journey began with a deep-rooted faith and a life-altering visit to Uganda. Inspired by the resilience of the Ugandan people and a calling from his faith, Mike's mission evolved into a lifelong commitment to bringing hope and change to marginalized communities. Join us as we explore the story of how one individual's dedication and spirituality inspired a movement, offering both immediate and eternal hope to those in need.
Our conversation with Mike dives into the complexities of development work in Uganda, a country with a young and vibrant population. We discuss the importance of empowering local leaders and developing community-driven solutions that are sustainable and impactful. Mike shares personal stories, including efforts to improve hygiene for young girls, which highlight the thoughtful and nuanced approach required in effective aid work. Grounded in wisdom from influential books like "When Helping Hurts" and "Toxic Charity," our dialogue challenges the notion of outsourcing compassion and stresses the importance of direct engagement and listening.
In this episode, we also tackle the intricate relationship between wealth, faith, and discipleship. Mike opens up about the challenges of ministering in affluent contexts, discussing how excess can sometimes obscure spiritual growth. Together, we reflect on how living simply can lead to a more authentic connection with God and consider the structural challenges within church institutions that can affect leadership and faith journeys. As we explore the joy and purpose found in committing to a meaningful life driven by hope, Mike's experiences in Uganda offer powerful insights into using one's gifts for the collective good and living a life aligned with purpose and passion.
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Welcome to Lead Time, tim Allman here with Jack Kalberg. I pray that the love and joy of Jesus is yours today. Jack, how are you feeling? Man Loving life?
Speaker 2:I'm doing fantastic. We got a little bit of an overcast day today here in Arizona. We are starting to just start to feel some of the good weather that's coming our way. Way we're starting. It's not there yet, but it's almost here and we can all just eagerly anticipate it. It'll soon be, you know, within a few weeks, I think. Outdoor walking weather, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's so good Our podcasts get released probably a month or two after they're actually recorded. So yeah, we're at the end of August and there's a little bit. We get giddy, uh, mike, when it turns into the nineties, when it's in the 90s it's like, oh my gosh, it is paradise. It is paradise. So today we're going to hang out with a brother that I just Go ahead Mike.
Speaker 3:What was that Arizona weather in Missouri this week? So we're taking what you guys are leaving.
Speaker 1:Oh okay. It's hot. Mike lives in Missouri, but let me tell you a little bit about him. Mike is a founder and executive director of Fields of Dreams Uganda, a non-for-profit organization that has been working in Uganda for the past 12 years. He's been married for 21 years to his wife, Abby, a third grade teacher. So good Three boys. They reside in Kabul, Missouri. Am I saying that right, Mike?
Speaker 3:Yeah yeah, kabul, a small, small little village here in Missouri.
Speaker 1:I love it. I love it. I've never heard of it so good. He's a graduate of Carthage College in Kenosha, wisconsin, and he has a history of serving the local church throughout his adulthood in various roles. He believes, as do we, that it is our responsibility as followers of Jesus to find ways to care for orphans and widows in their times of distress. So before we get into, maybe, a theology of mission, we're going to be talking about mission, the sending nature of God. It sounds like the Holy Spirit impacted you in a mega way. To put that sending nature of God, especially for the least, the loss, the broken, the hurting, the marginalized. He put that in your story. How did that develop, mike? And thanks again for hanging with us today on Lead Time.
Speaker 3:Absolutely. Yeah, thank you for this opportunity, tim and Jack. It's an honor to join you guys today. My story, I mean, just goes back to my roots in my parents' faith and kind of being passed down. I grew up in the Catholic church, kind of moved around a lot as a young kid and spent a lot of my childhood in Illinois, then in West Virginia. I got involved in Young Life in high school as well, which was huge kind of faith formationally for me as well, and then into university just knew that I wanted to serve in some way, somehow Transferred quite a few times, actually started at a Lutheran college there in Bexley, Ohio, outside of Columbus, called Capital University, and then went to Hope College in Michigan, marquette, for a little bit and then wrapped up at Carthage College and throughout all of those kind of moments God was kind of just building the framework.
Speaker 3:And so started off in ministry doing kind of family ministries, working with kind of that birth to age 50 in a small kind of congregational church in Quincy, illinois, and God started to just kind of bend my heart toward the people of Uganda. It was through the work of a small group called Invisible Children out of Southern California Back in 2012,. There was this Kony 2012 video that kind of went viral, if you may recall that, and it brought a lot of light. But prior to that kind of 2006 timeframe, god just started bending my heart toward the people of Uganda. What was happening in Northern Uganda with the Lord's Resistance Army and just no one really paying attention to it here in the Western world. And so I went to Uganda in 2009, just with another organization it was going to be a week of my life, july 2009, and fell in love with the culture and the people and the sincerity and the kindness and, in some ways, fell in love with the needs that are present there as well.
Speaker 3:And then the openness to hope. One of our big taglines as an organization is hope and the basic need and, as we talk about kind of the marginalized and those on the fringes of society, it doesn't matter where you are. If you're living life without hope, it doesn't matter. You can't believe that tomorrow can be better than today and there's. Obviously we, as brothers in Christ, have that eternal hope as well, but I also believe that we are called to give people that hope in tomorrow as well, and so that idea of mercy work that is prevalent throughout the Gospels, prevalent throughout the teachings of Christ, and Paul has kind of led us. So we're a nonprofit organization.
Speaker 3:I bring all a variety of volunteers to Uganda. Some come from a faith background, some do not, but our staff in country are incredible, young men and women, most of which are certainly Christ followers, some of which are not as well, but we are. For me, this is a response to my faith in Christ, who God has called me to be. That verse in James 127, that pure religion is to care for the orphan and the widow in their time of distress and not become polluted by the things of this world, is kind of my life verse. And so went to Uganda, fell in love with the culture, the people and then just slowly started to share what I thought we could maybe do together with some, some friends and family, and we've been serving out there for over a decade, 12 years, and it's it's been amazing to see God's provision kind of through everything over this long but arduous and joy-filled journey.
Speaker 2:What does that service look like? What kind of needs are you meeting for the local people in Uganda?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so we serve at local partner schools. So we work with nine government schools that are primarily all primary schools. We've got one that is a private school. Government schools in Uganda were all founded by the church at different times, but about 25 years ago the government started what they call the universal primary education system, and it was this UPE system to try and give kids an education. But it's not free. There are hidden fees everywhere for kids in Uganda. So we're working with the poorest of the poor at these government schools. So we serve about 6,000 kids annually through soccer and education programming on their campuses. So we have coaches, we have social workers, we have IT professionals, and so we bring a lot of services to those schools.
Speaker 3:I do a lot with character training. We call it women of substance training, men of integrity training, and just try to just let the kids know their value and their worth, that God created them for a purpose on this earth, so just trying to inject hope into their lives in just a myriad of ways. And so we have about 50 full-time Ugandan staff that carry out our work. Twenty-five of those are out in the field. One of our core values is also that of sustainability, and so we also have 25 staff members that work at our Hope Empowerment Center in this little community of Banda, where we have barbershops and cafes and sports shops and just sustainable businesses as well. That inject kind of obviously jobs into the community. But also all of those funds get put right back into our programming as well there in Uganda.
Speaker 1:I love how God puts places on people's hearts. And sometimes we may wonder hey, where's my place? Well, you have a vocation in your home, in your community.
Speaker 3:That's where God has placed you, and this isn't for everyone.
Speaker 1:But you see God at work, sending the Holy Spirit, actually calling people up and out to go. In the book of Acts and Paul kind of has this he was obviously an apostle who was a sent one right to witness to the crucified and risen Jesus, but he was also in place and he had this Paul is. So I'd love to get your take on the apostle Paul and how it kind of overlaps some with your story. But he had this deep, deep love for the churches that he'd planted and the felt needs cross-cultural that he was meeting, tell more about how. I mean it's kind of a mysterious thing Like where does Uganda, for goodness sake I mean of all places, right, I mean, but God put that place in Mike Warnicke's heart for a specific purpose and now to see that kind of being realized, raising up indigenous leaders, that's a humbling thing, huh, mike.
Speaker 3:It is, it is and it's. It is very humbling when I am there on my trips. I spent about probably two months a year in Uganda working with our staff and so on those trips I am completely humbled often, often humbled. This work that we're doing is, you know, 90% passion and about 10% expertise, and so it's just showing up, it's listening and it's responding, and so it's been. I feel very unworthy oftentimes of the work that we get to accomplish or the lives that we get to see change for the good, that are honoring Christ and just the million sacrifices that have been made. But it's, it's it's kind of those small steps of obedience that that lead to big things.
Speaker 3:But I think when we talk often in the world of church, that that idea of calling is is often keeps people from acting instead of sends people. It keeps people like I don't have this big calling and I truly believe that we're supposed to just love whoever God puts in front of us, and for me that is. It happens to be the Ugandan people. That doesn't mean I'm not serving in my local church. It does not mean I'm not serving in my local community. It does not mean I'm not loving my own family well that God obviously puts in front of me every single day. But I think we have to take advantage of those opportunities. And it is a special calling, I agree with you there. But I think there are a lot of people that ignore that special calling as well, out of fear, ignore that special calling out of comfort, and ignore that special calling because they feel completely unqualified as well.
Speaker 3:And I think Paul is the perfect example of showing up with sincerity. First and foremost, in the communities that he ministered to there was a sincerity that was so rich. There was a love for his brothers and sisters, wherever it was on the map that was so rich, and so that leads not just to love map that was so rich, and so that leads not just to love, but it often leads to, sometimes, accountability in ways that we don't always love and enjoy, and that's also a big part of leadership as well as providing that accountability for people and saying the hard things, having the hard conversations, and so all of that. I can look back on my life and just kind of see God's hand and the hand of the Holy Spirit kind of preparing me for this work in so many ways, and so it's beautiful to see, and it may end tomorrow. That's the.
Speaker 2:You know, we have to live in that way as well, that this is not guaranteed for another decade or another 12 years, and so trying to take advantage of every opportunity that's given to me, every day that's given to me at this point, there is a drastic difference in, let's say, the standard of living that exists in a country like in America and many countries which we call the global south, like, and there's many other countries in that situation, and so what we see is sometimes a gift, let's say, a $1,000 gift.
Speaker 2:It can have so much more impact in those countries than it can locally. Not that we should neglect what's going on locally, but I can see why a Christian, when they're thinking from the lens of return on investment, actually blessing as many people as possible, why it's such a compelling thing to invest in ministries like that. Do you have any thoughts on that? Like I was blown away talking to a church that said, oh, we're planting, you know, we're planting 750 churches. And I was saying, how is that possible? And they said, in the, the global south, you can plant a church for ten thousand dollars. Right? I was like wow, that's, that's really powerful, right, you know?
Speaker 3:well how far a dollar will go in uganda, um, and and that's not always a good thing for the local people, it is certainly a good thing for our um, the generosity of the western church and certainly people here in the US that are continuing to give. But they also want to know that that giving is going where it's intended to go as well. And it's sometimes even hard in those larger organizations where there's a lot of bureaucracy and overhead. And so yeah, for us, we can see such impact with small gifts, so we say 20 bucks right nowets a kid through a term of primary school.
Speaker 3:There's three terms of schooling there. It's kind of the British education system. So for $60 a year keeping a kid in school, you're keeping them with a school lunch and a uniform and it just it goes so extremely far there and it's not. It doesn't mean we ignore what's happening here. The government of Uganda has a lot of. It's called the breadbasket of Africa, the pearl of Africa. I mean it's such a gorgeous, gorgeous nation, but there's there's corruption everywhere and there's certainly been corruption there in the past, but there's just it is such a young population it's the second youngest nation in the world behind Nigeria and so like the median age is in the low teen, like the 16-ish is the median age across Uganda, and so there is there are not enough jobs for people. There are schools. When you drive through, whether it's around the capital city of Kampala or out into the villages, you just pass primary school after primary school after primary school just because of the sheer number of kids.
Speaker 3:I was at a local school event here as our teachers started back and they were celebrating that we had 70 new students in our school district and we have a very small school district, but our superintendent was talking about the amount of dollars that would bring to our little school district, and it was close to a million dollars that that would bring in state and federal funding. And in Uganda I was doing the math and it would. It would equal to about two hundred and forty dollars in federal funding. That would go to a primary school with 70 new students. And so it's just. It's sometimes hard. Although the dollar goes far, it's hard to balance and to live in both of those worlds as well. Where you can. You see, in some ways, so much waste here in the West, and I'm guilty as well. I mean I throw away expired food in my. So I'm not pointing fingers, but we just such a community of comfort and access that it pains me to see what needs to be done for so little.
Speaker 3:We build changing rooms. One of the things we do is a lot with hygiene kits as well for girls. A girl in Uganda will miss an average of about 20% of her education when she starts her period, and so, once again, the work of the Holy Spirit. As a father of three boys myself, teaching menstruation in Uganda is nothing I would have chosen. That's only from. The Holy Spirit is a father of three boys. Myself teaching menstruation in Uganda is nothing I would have chosen. That's only from the Holy Spirit and only from the God. But we also build changing rooms on their campuses to give them a dignified place to care for themselves, and that's you know. For six thousand dollars we can put one of those up. That will last for generations to come and give a different type of dignity to hundreds and thousands of girls over time. And you just see the power, the impact of those dollars in massive ways, massive ways.
Speaker 1:Mike, I bet I love it. I bet you read when Helping Hurts right.
Speaker 3:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:The book when Helping Hurts. Yeah, I mean, it's kind of a classic. So let's dig into the Absolutely and not for, but with, and we've got to watch our positions. We're doing ministry with them. We're coming alongside, we're not doing things for them. So talk about the differences between leading teams in the US and leading teams in Uganda in a sustainable way that looks to raise up indigenous leaders. Let's go in deeper there.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think when we look at Uganda, a lot of our staff are young men and women. This is often their first kind of professional job and so a lot of that is kind of patience. But it's that intentionality of trying to holistically kind of serve our leaders Myself and our national director, jonathan Seybambolide, who's been with me even before we began our work, who's been with me even before we began our work the two of us try to kind of truly lead as servant leaders. So a lot of that is patience. A lot of that is coming alongside in a discipleship manner of teaching. Sometimes the most basic of things that we take for granted here, but a lot of it is for me especially, is that listening piece, and I think when we're serving, whether it is is outside of our normal context, whether that be in a reservation or an urban area versus a rural area I think we often forget that piece of that listening dynamic.
Speaker 3:Another book that I love, in addition to when Helping Hurts, is Toxic Charity by Lupton, and it just talks a lot about development work versus emergency relief and so often our work. We want to put a bandaid on something, we want to throw money at a problem the church for the last hundred years. We've outsourced our compassion ministries. We've outsourced kind of almost everything, even locally. Here in this small little village of Caboom, missouri, we give money to a pastoral alliance that can take care of the people that knock on our doors instead of doing it ourselves.
Speaker 3:It's amazing that we've forgotten what it's like to interact with people, and any type of service work, any type of ministry is messy, and I think we've tried to remove ourselves too often from that mess. Relationships are messy, broken people are messy, we're all messy, and so I think leading here has more challenges, honestly, in the US versus Uganda, because there's so much apathy and we're often having to fight through entitlement here as well. And I have a title, so I can't listen to you. I have a title, I've had more experience than you, so I'm not going to be able to learn from you, and I know you've all gone to those conferences, whether it be a leadership conference or a ministry conference, and often it's just the puffing out of the chest and and kind of bragging about what we're accomplishing instead of like how are you doing it? Um, can I?
Speaker 2:humbly ask can.
Speaker 3:I humbly set your feet. What is like there at Christ Greenfield, like what are you all doing that's working so well? And so I love podcasts like the ones you're doing as well, because it gives us that opportunity to listen to people that are doing things differently, maybe, than we've done them before, and it's hard.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I agree with you. I think, discipleship of the wealthy is much, much more difficult than discipleship of lower income, socioeconomic demographics. What you see, you know, and Gilbert is, I'm going to say it's, it's probably the highest one of the highest net worth cities in.
Speaker 2:Arizona more so than Scottsdale, even which was well known for the number of millionaires it had. It's tough, right People? In general these are broad statements they feel like they've got it all figured out. And so, and people in you know, people in Uganda or wherever that might be, or certain places in America where there's a lot of brokenness going on, they don't pretend like they've got it all figured out. And sometimes these conversations about the gospel they go a lot farther with people. So, yeah, very difficult.
Speaker 1:I want to hear Dr.
Speaker 3:Go ahead, go ahead, mike, go ahead.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I just want to hear Dr Stafford talk about kind of the poverty of too much and just that excess that we have and that distraction that we are amidst.
Speaker 3:And it's true, there's a beauty when you strip down life, when you don't have to worry about all of the things we own that end up owning us. There's a beauty when we're living by faith in the people of Uganda. And I think what we often have to realize too is I'm not bringing Christ to Uganda, I'm joining Christ in Uganda. He is already there and he's already been doing a great work. And so as you join kind of in that work, you also get to rub shoulders with people that are living by faith in ways that I've never been forced to live by faith. They've had to trust in Christ in ways that I've never had to trust in Christ. My cupboards are full, my fridge is full, and if it's not, I've got a grocery store down the street. And when you strip that away and you are living in need, as I think we're all made to need God, but we've kind of been able to in a lot of ways, through our excess, kind of push God to the perimeters of our life instead of being there in the center.
Speaker 1:Hey, I couldn't agree more. There's many, many folks within the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod that are that listen to, to lead time, and I can't help, jack, but wonder if we had less. If we had, if we had maybe fewer institutions, fewer churches, less money in general. I don't remember the number that gets thrown out about the assets within the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, I think it's $2 billion, something like that. I could be wrong. I think it's somewhere in that realm. If we had less, would we come to the table more and listen more deeply? Would we innovate more consistently? Would we put the best construction on one another?
Speaker 1:I really think some of our struggles in listening to one another in the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod is tied to the fact that we're protecting what is God's. It's like the whole Bible is God saying guys, don't forget, it's mine, don't forget all this stuff is. And you're just called. This sounds like preachy, right, but you're just called to steward it. You're here, but for a short period of time. And oh, by the way, the words to the rich, the words to those who do not steward well, are hard words of law. You fool, you thought all of this was yours and you didn't care for the local. You didn't care for the marginalized, the hurting and broken. And look at the structures that exist that are maybe hampering leadership development taking place. This is a serious word of warning, I think, in scripture, to say, hey, would we come? Let's just do a thought experiment experiment. Would we come to the table more with our brother and sister, in different contexts, if it weren't about, if it weren't about money? I think the answer is yes.
Speaker 2:Jack, anything to say there? No, I agree. I think, unfortunately, money does influence decisions, sometimes in a very negative way. I mean, there is a very, very attractive pension plan in our system and I can see a lot of people maybe not wanting to rock the boat because they've got a pension in place. Now, this may trigger some people, but how many is it? Five percent I don't know what that number is, but it's a percentage, right that it might be influencing people in the wrong way. It's about creating a comfortable retirement rather than actually forsaking everything for the sake of the gospel, right? So this is an issue that we need to work through. Yeah, go ahead. So this is the type of thing that we need to work through. And I think, yeah, go ahead, you know? So this is a type of thing that we need to work through. I believe discipleship of the wealthy is a struggle, and those same struggles can exist within the clergy and within you know, within. You know that population of church workers, right?
Speaker 1:I'm going to make a generational statement here all right.
Speaker 1:And some people may think it's a little much, but I think it has to be said Would the boomer generation and not just in the Lutheran Church, missouri Synod, but in general if it weren't tied to our wealth and the systems, the pension plans, if all of that were stripped away, would they have been more centered in whatever it takes to reach? And we see the slide, we see the cultural slide, we see the slide of churches being internally focused, not caring about their neighborhood. If it weren't tied to some of these financial allegiances, would we have been more? Would the denominations, which we see a mega denominational decline right now it's not just the LCMS, it's across the board If that generation would have stepped up rather than hoarding wealth, would there be a change right now in the American, in the US church? I think there could have been.
Speaker 1:So, Boomer, we love you and there's always an opportunity for old men and women to learn new things, to set aside the trappings of this fallen world. And oh, by the way, retirement isn't in the Bible. So stay engaged, stay engaged. Leader, right, all right, mike, anything that you, let us go on. A little bit of a rant there, but it had to be said anything to add to that Mike.
Speaker 3:Well, we are called to be each other's retirement. I think that's why community is so important, and I think we forget that. And I have a father who I love dearly, who is constantly on me. What about your retirement? What about your retirement? What about your retirement? That doesn't concern me at this point in my life, and maybe wrongfully so to a certain degree, but we are so quick to, I think, encourage each other's comfort as well. We're so quick to congratulate each other.
Speaker 3:One of the phrases I hate the most in this world is you deserve that. When you hear someone that's bought a second house or a brand new car, you've worked hard, you deserve that. And what I read in Scripture is, as I look at Romans 12 12 is I'm called to offer my body as a living sacrifice. Um, and that's where joy is found and that is where purpose is found and that is where, like the Holy spirit, life is found is when we submit um rather than gather and um, and and it's yeah, but it's.
Speaker 3:I think, unless it's done on such a macro scale, um, unless we all buy in at the same time, it's almost impossible. And a small little. For instance, my wife and I are trying to simplify life and we just get a text this week about Christmas this year with my family and how we all have to buy all these gifts and it's good to go to a thrift store and it's not going to be expensive. But it's just stuff and it's good Go to a thrift store and it's not going to Western church, whatever it may be.
Speaker 1:It's got to be so widespread for us not to get kind of pulled right back into it. Well, economic struggle God is over all things and economic struggle, recession, et cetera, could hopefully, I pray lead the church to say we've been focused on the wrong things, we repent, we confess and now we're going to deeply care for one another in our respective contexts, starting local, starting national, moving out international. We've got a lot of things to learn. Well, hey, it's so fun to get to know you, mike. Here's what Jordan Besling, who connected us, said.
Speaker 1:He had some pretty glowing things to say about you and your leadership. One of the most genuine and authentic people he's ever met, and I, you know, just hanging out with you here for the last 30 minutes. I think you're top shelf dude in terms of what the Holy Spirit and don't get the big head, because I'm saying that it's all God at work through you. I know you wouldn't, but what do you do? Let's just talk leadership in general. What do you do to maintain your joy as, as a leader, satan comes to steal, kill, destroy, deceive. He wants to destroy the joy of Jesus in us. What is, what are some of the disciplines, things, the ways that, day in, day out, you show up with a posture of joy, cause that's what Jordan says and that's what I've experienced in you, mike. What's that look and feel like for you?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean there's a battle. You guys know that leadership is lonely and can be a very lonely place, so I think for me it is that constant and depending on those seasons of life, for me, when I'm in Uganda, when I'm in front of our kids, I feel the Holy Spirit at work, I feel like this is what I was created to do, to be. And then I come home and I love my family. I love my wife dearly, I love my kids dearly. I try to love my local church as best as I can, as I kind of serve in a role here as an administrative pastor, but it's hard when someone, I feel like some of that purpose gets stripped away. I become an accountant, I become a fundraiser, I become all of those things that are not the fun sides of ministry.
Speaker 3:When I'm here in the US, me, joy is a part of life in such a rich way. But if I'm honest, when I'm on this side of the world, joy is often a struggle for me, and so part of that is community seeking community. I've tried to be a lot more intentional as I've gotten older. We've moved a fair number of times as well as a family. My wife is from Kabul, missouri, and there's great people here, but I still don't feel like I'm here. And community takes so long to develop and I moved around enough that I have dear, deep, meaningful friendships, but they're rarely right in front of me, they're often in other parts of the country, other parts of the world. So being intentional in those relationships, I think is key, are all big portions of that for me as well.
Speaker 3:But we're called to be joyous. It's not an option, it's a command, and I think sometimes the church world, whether that be in the Missouri Synod or in another denomination like, we're called to be joyful and if our younger generation is not seeing that in us and I can remember, you know, growing up in the Catholic church and looking around at what I read in scripture and I look at the faces around me and some show, I guess, some exemplify joy, but so many of them look just miserable, just miserable, and it was tradition and devotion instead of a deep love for Christ. And so I think for me it's to surround myself with those people that I see joy in their lives and their faces. And so because joy attracts joy and and, and I need that in my life sometimes, especially on this side of the world. If I'm getting in one of those moments, what I want to do is to push away and what I want to do is isolate myself, and I know that's of the devil and not of Christ. And so it's leaning into that and sometimes, as a 45-year-old man, it's calling up a friend and saying I need lunch tomorrow, like I need to be around people tomorrow, I need to have a conversation tomorrow, I need to have some sincerity tomorrow, and so I think for me it's kind of balancing all of that stuff.
Speaker 3:But I'd be lying to you if I said that joy came easy to me. It does in Uganda, but here in the US I can be that 80 year old curmudgeon pretty quickly if I'm not careful, and I can fall into those just kind of the trappings of comfort, the trappings of. I think we live in the land of complaints and it's easy just to fall into rhythm with everyone around you where you're looking at not everything, not even half full, but just empty half the time. So um, joy is is, I think, a spiritual practice that that we need to to, to practice um instead of um acting like it's. It's not supposed to come and go like our happiness. And so I'm, I'm learning.
Speaker 3:Um, I'm not a perfecter of joy yet, um, by any means, but I'm trying to lean into it a little bit more.
Speaker 3:And certainly I realized that my joy is sometimes the greatest witness to the world around me as a Christian, as a Christ follower, and I think we forget that sometimes, when I serve in Uganda, when I have teams there, there is more laughter, there is more joy, there is more sincerity, like when we live in purpose, when we walk in purpose, when we wake up in purpose, um, that's where life is found, that's where joy is found. And sometimes in the mundane, um, when you, you have to unload the dishwasher and mow the lawn and do all this stuff that comes with life, um, we, we sometimes give our joy away, um we, we let people kind of steal it from us. And so I'm learning, and I know you guys are kind of doing a study on joy right now and I'm sure you have some insights that I can learn from as far as kind of being a little bit more consistent in my joy, because sometimes, sadly, circumstances, although they shouldn't impact our joy, for me I've not perfected that yet.
Speaker 2:Circumstantially I sometimes give that away, hey, thanks for your honesty.
Speaker 1:Jack, before I go on, a joy rant do you have anything? To share Jack no-transcript.
Speaker 2:The difference between the Christian and the non-Christian is that we hurt with hope. Everybody else just hurts. That's the difference. But unfortunately, the reality is that the hurting is still there. Right, the hurting never goes away till our last day. But in the resurrection we have hope and know that that hurting will be gone, and so that gives us something to look forward to, and that is really ultimately the source of our joy.
Speaker 1:Yep, joy is a supra emotion right, it is above, it's a foundational emotion and it is a fuel for we just entered out of our series joy fuel. It is the fuel for our relationship just entered out of our series Joy Fuel. It is a fuel for our relationship with God, self, others and the rest of creation. And there are practices that lead toward more joy in and through the inevitable struggles of life and you hit on. I think one of the key ones is deep relationship. It's friendship. I'm known by God and I'm deeply known and I can bring all of my hurts, habits, hangups to people that will not judge. They will care for me. I can confess sin to them. I can receive the forgiveness of sins from them. It's the church at work, caring for one another, that gives me great joy and then I get to go into life with great curiosity. The biggest reason, mike, that Jack and I do this podcast is we've got a lot of people to learn from. The world is a beautiful, awesome place. It's tragic, it's awful, it's dark, but, man, there's so much light and I just want to be a part of sharing the light and love of the hope of Christ and there's just so many people that have so, so much light and I just want to be a part of sharing the light and love of the hope of Christ. And there's just so many people that have so many different disciplines and we get to hang out and learn about Uganda today Like this is how good is this?
Speaker 1:There is this overwhelming super emotion called joy. That is from the Holy Spirit. The fruit of the Spirit is love. Right Right next to love is peace, and right next to peace is joy. Like it's that triad of emotion, I'm loved by God. I have the peace that comes from being known by Christ, claimed by Him, and now he's mobilized me with a passion, a purpose, and it is joy that fuels that, mike for sure. So thank you for sharing that with me and really let's go in as we're coming down the homestretch here. I heard a talk at the Global Leadership Summit. I think it was Craig Groeschel. He talked about not putting to bed, not placing to the side your obsession, but using your obsession as a fuel for a life of meaning and purpose. Right, I'm obsessed, you're obsessed, with the mission of God to reach all of his kids in Uganda. So how would you articulate your clear obsession right now, mike?
Speaker 3:I think my clear obsession right now is to whoever God puts in front of me to help them become, I guess, to reach their fullest potential, to become who God created them to be. And that doesn't matter if I'm in Uganda or sitting down with my own kids or the kids I serve on Wednesday nights here at my church. It obviously lends itself more to Uganda with my work there, lends itself more to Uganda with my work there. But I really my obsession is to see people, through the gifts of the Holy Spirit, through their connection to God, become the fullest version of themselves. And as I read scripture and as I look at Christ's teachings, I believe that hope, that we hurt with hope, but we also like we're not waiting for eternity. Eternity is with us and it's begun and it's here and it's kingdom.
Speaker 3:And when we live, I believe as in into, lean into our fullest potential, god ushers in in beautiful, small, miraculous ways.
Speaker 3:He's ushering his kingdom in now, like we get a taste of heaven and there are so many people on this earth that are right now living with, sadly, a mouthful of hell as well and so we get to also give them those little tastes, those little morsels as well, of heaven and so like when we get to do that, and I think, whatever that obsession may be, and by God's grace it's different for all of us, by God's grace that your giftedness is not my giftedness, and so when we all do our part, hopefully that is when the kingdom is thriving for God's grace and God's glory, and so that is, for me, my obsession, and I'm a passionate guy, I'm a dreamer.
Speaker 3:I've had all of these harebrained ideas throughout my life that my wife kind of laughs at, that my family has laughed at, and in this work in Uganda has been different, that it's stuck and God has honored it and provided in ways that are unimaginable still to this day. And so this work, I am grateful for every opportunity that I have to stand in front of our staff in Uganda, to stand in front of our kids and hopefully raise up the next generation of leaders. I mean that is the goal, that is the hope is that work is generational.
Speaker 3:We're not going to see a lot of change right out of the gates.
Speaker 3:We are dealing with kids that are are living with poverty that is in so many ways insurmountable for a lot of them, and so we're just trying to get them to realize they're not desperate people, because we all know that desperate people do desperate things, and one of our goals is to teach the kids that we serve is that that is no longer you and you get to start thinking about a future that is different from the old you, and I love that. You know in 2 Corinthians 5.17, that the old is gone, the new has come, and a part future that is different from the old you, and I love that in 2 Corinthians 5.17, that the old is gone, the new has come, and a part of that is that, more than anything, is that mindset that I can dream and think and plan in a different way than the old me used to be able to do, and so that's definitely my current and hopefully lifelong obsession right now definitely my current and hopefully lifelong obsession right now.
Speaker 1:So good, Mike Jack, how would you define your obsession?
Speaker 2:I don't think I've ever asked you this, jack what's your obsession? Well, I'm an obsessive problem solver. That's probably how God created me here, so that's why I ended up in the role that I'm at. I'm just constantly building systems and fixing problems and seeing the church as a living thing where everything interacts with each other, and we need to build good structure around that and staff well and develop people well about that and you know my view is you?
Speaker 2:know I love, I absolutely love our church body, but it needs better systems. Right, it needs to execute better than it's executed. It needs to have an open enough hand to see. You know, what are the ways, what are the innovative ways to do ministry that we have permission to do, but we just haven't thought about it because it's outside of our cultural context and so people that are willing to look outside and then bring that in and say here's a version of it that we can do to reach people, that's my passion. I don't know if I articulated that really well, but that seems to be how God has engineered me.
Speaker 1:That's what I've experienced and I'm obsessed with multiplying healthy leaders. I think that's the small short way that heart, body, mind, spirit have this purpose and passion that they're living out and they're not doing it from a how and found their unique but collective inspired to be a part of the church obsession if they found that man, how amazing would the church would just blow up in a beautiful way.
Speaker 1:The book of Acts could come alive, like right now, across denominations. Anyone bending the knee to Jesus is King and Lord. Like bringing your gifts to the table, theological and cultural, and learning with one another, listening with one another. How amazing would that be. So just cast a vision, Mike, as we last question here what's your vision for the church at large? Like, what do you see and what? What even can we learn from the global south, and specifically there, the church in Uganda? Cast a vision for us, especially here in our, in our United States context, Mike.
Speaker 3:Well, tim, you just you just cast a beautiful vision of what the church can be and your words right there of it. A beautiful vision of what the church can be and your words right there of it. I think what the world is craving as well, that authentic opportunity to connect with others and then utilize the giftedness that God has given them. And I think what I see in Uganda is, I see, community that we lack here sometimes. I remember we brought some of our staff here to to the U? S and and I was a little bit nervous about bringing them to to our houses of worship and nervous about bringing them just to. You know, in Uganda you may worship for six, seven hours at a time. Um, you, you testimony is real and authentic. Um, and worship is is stripped away and it's not always pretty, but it's pure. Um, and it's beautiful. And worship is stripped away and it's not always pretty, but it's pure and it's beautiful. And where ours is so scripted. And so I was a little bit worried and nervous and in some ways I think they saw the best versions of not just America but the American church, but I was a little bit coming from within the church. I was a little bit worried and a little bit nervous because I see such apathy still within our walls and in Uganda. It is not a utopia by any means. The reason I am there is because of tragedy and because of evil. And then in northern Uganda, the reason that God called me there is because of the evil of men, and so I'm not trying to make the you know, the global South, the developing world, sound perfect, but there are people there that are willing to die for their faith, that understand real persecution, that are willing to sacrifice. Some of our staff members that have grown up in our programs, that are now staff members like their tithe. When I talked I'm going to use Rita as an example, who's a girl that just finished college and is one of our social workers and I've talked to her about her salary and things and I know like tithing for her is like sacrificial giving, is is real in a way that I will never understand it, because she's not just giving out of excess, but like giving to go without Um, and there's just so much I think we can learn from, from a living out our faith perspective. But but we have to be willing, um, willing to be real, to be sincere and to strip away.
Speaker 3:If I look at the Western church, there's so much that, if I read the book of Acts, that was never intended, that was never a part of the early church. And, yes, we have to. There are business decisions we have to make as a church body. Um, there are business decisions you have to make as a church body. Your leadership, um, you have to manage budgets. You have to sometimes redo your parking lots, you, I mean, you've got to do, you've got to keep the building open, um, but I think so much of that is is stealing our mind space, um, but I think so much of that is is stealing our mind space, um, so much of of those details are getting in the way of of loving our neighbors well, um, and it's a weird time to be alive, um, in our society and in our culture, and the division um is so real and, um, people are looking to the church right now. There is a generation that is the loneliest generation that's ever been born, that crave community but are running from community and until they see it lived out with authenticity that you kind of talked about, tim, just as far as like people coming together, living out their passions, living out their obsessions in community, artistically listening to one another. When that can happen, there's hope for the church, and I believe it can, and I believe it takes all of us. But we also see the ales of social media, the ales of division and nationalism and other things that are kind of plaguing our church right now as well, and there's a generation that's just running from it.
Speaker 3:I love to see traditional churches like yours, traditional churches. I was just at my parents' Lutheran church this last week and got to share a message with them, as they were kind of talking about the bread of life, and I love that there are still traditional churches that are living the gospel well, that are loving each other well. I remember growing up Catholic that I didn't often see Christ preached, but when I encountered Christ later on in my teens, I saw him everywhere and it was, it was a me thing. It was not a church thing, it was a me thing. Um, I got to see Christ everywhere that you know, weeks before I. Where's Christ in all of this? Um, he was right in front of me. Um, he was right inside me. So, um, I think it's just waking up a generation, um, of both the older generation that I once heard this described.
Speaker 3:I forget who said it, but tradition in the church world is just peer pressure from dead people, and so often we carry with us, we drag with us these things that don't fit our current passions.
Speaker 3:And I think churches have to be willing to change, be willing to sit down every year and say who are we, what is our identity?
Speaker 3:Because our identity should lead to where our passions and our obsessions are.
Speaker 3:And when we are forced, sometimes within the church land, when we are forced to adopt someone else's passions, someone else's obsessions, it stunts us, it stops us, it becomes so stale so quickly.
Speaker 3:And so I think for the church to be more willing to open up that conversation on a regular basis, because our churches for you there, even though you're a much larger church than I am here our identity changes week to week but month to month. Our identity is who is with us in community, and I think we have to be more willing and more open to have those conversations so we are not force feeding someone else's passion, someone else's obsession, someone else's giftedness upon this flock that's in front of us, and I think if we can do that well, there's so much excitement because there are more resources, there are more opportunities than ever before to be a global church, to be a connected church, and yet I think we keep missing the mark because we're sadly kind of handing off things, passing the baton, but never in effect changing what is in our hand when we pass that baton to that next generation or that next leader, whoever that may be.
Speaker 1:Hey, thanks, mike. What you're talking about passionately is really really messy.
Speaker 1:And digging into the traditions of the past and figuring out okay, what can we have a conversation about? What's within bounds, what's out of bounds? About what's within bounds, uh, what's what's out of bounds? Who are we? And then, how do we treat one another? What type of people are we like? That is the crux of leadership, and you're always, you're always asking that question. And then I gotta go. I gotta go back to the, to the book of acts.
Speaker 1:Like they weren't perfect, it was remarkably messy, but the gospel crossed cultures like they embraced it. I mean the whole circumcision controversy. Talk about an ingrained historic tradition. It's a covenant, for goodness sake, in the old testament. And then the early church says, well, we're not going to put that, that restriction, um condition to be a part of the community, upon our Gentile, our Gentile brothers. I mean we, the Jerusalem council, acts 15, I think we, after much debate, right. So they entered into the room and they, they were in relationship with one another. That's how they could do. It is because they trusted one another. More than that, they trusted the Holy spirit, who pointed them to Jesus.
Speaker 1:And then what is going to drive the church? This is my closing comment. This has been fun. What is going to drive the church? It's the mission of God. God has a mission and his mission has a church. And if we get that wrong, if we get the hospitality, the listening, the care, the cross-cultural work that needs to take place to move the gospel into every home, every ear, across nations, across cultural contexts, like if we miss the mission, we've missed the heart of God. And I really feel like today we're fighting over things that are adiaphora in the church and I'm not just talking like worship wars in the church. And I'm not just talking like worship wars. I'm talking about the small little struggles that in our churches just hamper mission. We silo the pastor. You do your Sunday thing. We're going to kind of run the church. I'm praying for passionate, bold pastors and leaders who keep the focus on the main thing God getting all of his kids back. Any closing comments toward that end. Mike, this has been so much fun.
Speaker 3:No, it has been a blast.
Speaker 3:I really appreciate this opportunity, jack and Tim, just to kind of talk with you passionately just about the church, and I think it's.
Speaker 3:We are called to represent Christ well, we are called to make him attractive to a very broken world, and we have such incredible opportunities as a church, as a global church, but also as leaders, to lead by example well, and I think we've all seen the fall of far too many leaders that eventually, I think, go beyond reproach and maybe isolate themselves or elevate themselves.
Speaker 3:And so I think we talked about that word of humility has come up a number of times today as well, and I think that is is key that the heart of, of who God calls us to be as leaders or as pastors, is to keep that humble heart as well, to lead, to guide to, to lean into the Holy Spirit. But but we have to do it in a way that continues to to make them attractive, that that that God should be attractive because of the way we're living and responding and listening and loving and serving and in all of those things. And so I think sometimes, when we can have conversations, we leave deflated instead of excited. There's a lot of work to be done, but these are the kinds of conversations that I think lead to that work being done, which is exciting to me.
Speaker 1:Amen, hey, man, if people want to connect with you, Mike, and you and your ministry, how can they do so?
Speaker 3:Yeah, social media following on Instagram and on Facebook just Fodu. Uganda. Fieldsofdreamsyugandaorg is our website. We are an organization that is eager to connect with the church because it is an easy and wonderful way for you all to live out your mercy work in the world. It is an easy and wonderful way for your followers, your disciples, to put feet on their faith and join us in Uganda.
Speaker 3:We don't ask our volunteers. We've had seven-year-olds I think 83-year-olds in Uganda with us. Your job when you're there, is to be present and to speak life into these kids. It doesn't take special skills. We have soccer coaches that come with us. We have educators that come with us. We have professionals in every kind of realm that come with us.
Speaker 3:But what we ask of you is just to come and show up in the lives of these kids and, as we talked earlier today, a check, money is needed to make things like this work, but your presence, the willing, I guess the reality that you're willing to leave your family, your job, your community, your comfort to go to the other side of the world and look a kid in the eye and tell them that they have value, that God created them for a purpose and a reason.
Speaker 3:A Czech can't do that, and I'm always amazed with our volunteers that show up, that God kind of brings different kids to every one of our volunteers, that I've known these kids for 10 years and that's the first time I've seen them kind of interact or connect with a volunteer and it's because we're all needed. And so if you can't do that I know that's a big ask to actually come to Uganda, find ways in your own community. We would love for financial support, obviously for our work, but I think when we all live out our obsessions well, the world wins because we're driving people to Christ. And so if you want to join me in Uganda, I encourage you. But if you have passions elsewhere, keep doing a great job where God has planted you as well.
Speaker 1:Amen. Wonderful work, mike and Jack. This is Lead Time. Sharing is caring Like, subscribe, comment, wherever it is you take in these podcasts. Hopefully this inspires some innovation, some creativity, some entrepreneurship. That does not compromise our theology, by the way. It only amplifies it and gets it into the heart and ears of people both here in the States as well as international. You're an inspiration, mike. It's been an awesome honor for us to interview you today, so it's a good day. Go make it a great day. Wonderful work, jack. Great job, mike, thanks guys.