Lead Time
Lead Time
"Getting to Know Jesus" - Teaching the Bible with Relational Language with Rev. Paul Schult
Paul Schult, a pastor from Redwood City, California, joins us for a captivating discussion on transforming faith and leadership within the church. Explore the journey of his congregation's rebranding to Bridge City Church and delve into the relational depth of Christianity explored in his book, "Getting to Know Jesus." Learn how Paul uses relationship-driven perspectives on theological concepts, such as the Ten Commandments and the Apostles' Creed, to make faith more personal and impactful, reflecting on the importance of Martin Luther's small catechism in teaching faith relationally.
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Leadership and discipleship are at the heart of this episode as we discuss Jesus' model of nurturing small group relationships to encourage spiritual growth. Discover the essence of Christ-like leadership, where fostering humility, equipping individuals for ministry, and overcoming challenges like institutional busyness are paramount. Paul shares insights into the importance of life-on-life discipleship that goes beyond traditional preaching, advocating for gifted teachers to enrich church communities and inspire a multiplying effect.
Finally, we navigate the dynamic landscape of ministry in the secular Bay Area, highlighting the innovative strategies needed to engage diverse communities. From embracing contextual hospitality to adopting a missionary mindset, we cover emerging trends and the importance of adaptive leadership. Hear about Corey Garrity's visionary replanting of Bridge City Church and the innovative young adult ministry, Collective, as inspiring models for engaging the unchurched. This episode is a call to empower congregants and build well-rounded teams that prioritize God's mission amidst the challenges of modern ministry.
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Welcome to Lead Time, Tim Allman, here with Jack Kalberg. It is a beautiful day to be alive. I pray you're living in the joy of your baptismal identity and I pray that that joy is fueling you for a life of meaning and purpose as you join Jesus on his mission to seek and save those who are lost. To dream big dreams. To care for the flock, If you're a leader within the church, to care for, to disciple well the people that God has entrusted to you as maybe an under-shepherd of the big shepherd, Jesus. But that driving why would be the mission of God. The mission of God is fueling us today as His people. Jack, how are you doing?
Speaker 2:man, I'm doing fantastic. We just got off a great chat with a gentleman named Mike where we got to hear some really awesome mission work happening in Uganda, so just really cool and I'm looking forward to this chat here with Paul.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So let me tell you a little bit about Paul Schultz. He currently is the pastor in red, one of the pastors in Redwood City, california, and he is going through a name change of his congregation. Can't wait to hear about this Redeemer Church and School being changed to Bridge City Church. Once this is released, I'm sure I know that will have happened, and so we're going to talk a little bit about that. We're going to talk a little bit about his book, getting to Know Jesus, and I think that's where we just want to start, paul. How are you doing, brother, as we get into?
Speaker 3:the chat, great. Yeah, we're doing really well out here in California. It's a beautiful day in Silicon Valley and appreciate you guys and the ministry you do, and looking forward to a conversation today.
Speaker 1:Man, the joy is ours. So, as you talk about your book Getting to Know Jesus, what amazes you about Jesus that compelled you to write that book Getting to Know Jesus? What amazes you about Jesus that compelled you to write that book Getting to Know Jesus? Talk about that, brother.
Speaker 3:Yeah, thanks, it happened when I started in ministry about 30 years you get to that first church and you teach an adult class. I grabbed a little book that was called that. I May Know Him and I think as I started to teach through that the first time, it just really hit me about Christianity how deeply personal it is. You know, when we read the scriptures and we look at the creation account, we quickly conclude that God is powerful, but maybe we don't think about the other side of that, which is that God is deeply personal. And so for me, that really what I found out was when I started to teach the six core teachings, the six chief parts, in relationship language. What I found out was that people connected much more quickly to theological concepts and thoughts when it was framed in relationship language. So that was really what was behind me writing that book, because it was based on materials that I'd been developing for years, teaching just an introduction to Christianity to new members.
Speaker 3:Well, let's go deeper yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, let's go deeper there, I mean because sometimes theological think of, like the two kinds of righteousness or or obviously a teaching on the Ten Commandments, it can be taught in a way that it's doctrine, dogma. Nothing against doctrine. I mean, we must have doctrine teaching these kind of deep, paradox, tension-filled teachings of the Lutheran tradition in particular with a relational lens rather than kind of a dogmatic theological lens. How does that sound different Paul?
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's a really good question. I'll give you an example of that using the Ten Commandments. You know what I do is I talk about how the six chief parts are like dynamics of a relationship, and so, just like you have a relationship with other people and there are critical parts of that relationship, it works in a very similar way with God, right? So one of the things that we have as human beings are shared values and competing values, right? So we have to navigate that in our human relationships. Well, the Ten Commandments God's just kind of putting out on the table hey, here's the things I value, these are the things I love, these are the things I don't love, these are the things that give life, that will deepen your relationship with the living God, and these are things that will interfere with the relationship with the living God.
Speaker 3:And when we talk about the Ten Commandments, with that framework of shared values, competing values and thinking about that in your human relationships, for many people it just kind of opens their eyes and their minds of realizing, oh, that's what's behind these things. You know, these aren't just kind of superficial 10 rules that God arbitrarily made up. These are truths that govern life the way God created it to work, and so that's just one example. You know that we go into the Apostles' Creed and I talk about identity, how important our identity is, and our identity is wrapped up in our name, and we know that in human relationships Sometimes I'll take that little analogy and say to people like, think about how important it is to know a person's name in order to start getting to know them more deeply, and how, if you're creeped out by somebody, you don't want them to know your name, like you withhold that because you know, once they know your name, they're, they're onto you, right, and so when we talk about it so that's just two examples.
Speaker 3:But then we just carry through that, through all six chief parts, and put it all in relationship language. Same theology, same concepts behind it, but just on the frame relationship language.
Speaker 1:Well, didn't Luther write the small catechism? Because of relationship, a relationship with a pastor and maybe then parents not articulating the faith as well as they could and should, and I mean his driving. Why is that? They would know it wasn't just about knowing, it was about, like the whole self, knowing the love of God and then the theologies, the basic tenets of our faith. But it was all based in, in relationship. Anything more to say about how Luther's driving why is? Is relationship Paul?
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely, you know that you're right. Even the, even the instruction of the faith done in relationship right in the household. And so not just not just the framework of relationship, but also the process of relationship, and you know that I help teach PLI and we talk about that all the way back to the beginning of Genesis. You know the message of the cross, a vertical relationship with God, horizontal relationship with each other, that the design of the cross didn't happen when Jesus was nailed to a cross. It happened in Genesis, when God created us with the divine purpose of a cross and then created our bodies to reflect that divine purpose. So, yeah, it's all rooted in relationship. And so, yeah, I think Lutheran, the Lutheran church, has always, you know, it's always been about to know God, not to know about God. Knowing about is never enough. The knowing is so much deeper.
Speaker 2:I was just reading a little bit of Luther where he talks about the difference between believing. You know, believing there's Jesus and believing in Jesus, right, it's a different thing. Believing there's a God and believing in God is different things, right?
Speaker 1:Yeah, a lot of ways to say it. Yeah for sure. So let's get into your ministry story just a little bit. You've been a pastor for how many years, Paul?
Speaker 3:I'm in my 30th year.
Speaker 1:Praise God, man. Three decades of ministry, all in the Lutheran Church, missouri Synod, right, yes, all right. So tell us a little bit of that ministry story and what you love most about being a Lutheran leader, paul.
Speaker 3:Well, I grew up in Fort Wayne, indiana. My parents were both Lutheran school teachers. So that's my whole story. I say I've almost exhausted. The Lutheran education system stopped at the MDiv, so that was my story. I went to Concordia, chicago, to be a Lutheran school teacher. I was going to be a high school English teacher and coach basketball as a Hoosier at heart, so that's really what kind of helped shape me in ministry was I wanted to be involved in coaching. I taught high school for two years but then went to seminary and got into pastoral ministry and so that's just been kind of my story.
Speaker 3:I was influenced deeply by my high school chaplain who got me involved in FCA and loved that.
Speaker 3:My father-in-law was a pastor as well. When I met my wife in college and met him, he was very inspirational and influential for me, so it was just a powerful influence that he had in my life, and so I've been in ministry 30 years, taught high school for two and then been a pastor for me. So it was just a powerful influence that he had in my life, and so I've been in ministry 30 years, taught high school for two and then been a pastor for 30. But you know, for me, tim, it's just the joy of working with God's people, of seeing how God works through his people. It never ceases to amaze me what God's people, equipped and armed with the Holy Spirit and the gospel, are capable of doing. We have incredibly innovative and creative and effective people in the church and when they're released for mission, great things happen, and for me, that's just been inspiring for 30 years to watch and be a part of. I love being a part of it.
Speaker 1:As you've looked at the broader landscape of Lutheran leaders, specifically in the LCMS. What do you wish more Lutheran leaders? And when I say leader, it's not just pastor, but at every DCE, teachers, administrators, etc. What do you wish we were more known for as Lutheran leaders?
Speaker 3:Paul, you know, you know the little definition we use in PLI to teach leadership is to influence people to work together to accomplish God's mission, and so the simplicity of that, I love, is beautiful. And you know, we influence people by growing in Christlike character. We influence people by equipping people for ministry and releasing them in ministry, for ministry and releasing them in ministry. So to me, I think that's what we should be known for is being humble servant leaders who are growing in Christ-like character and influence people through relationships, through loving each other as Christ has loved us. And then In doing that, what our goal is ultimately is to help people work more effectively together.
Speaker 3:Sometimes people struggle working together. They don't know exactly what to do, they don't know exactly how to work best together. So God gives us spiritual leaders and says, hey, help God's people work together to accomplish God's mission. And when we do that, god does great things. God's mission, and when we do that, god does great things. And to me, you know, that's what I would love Lutheran leaders to be known for, as you know, really focused on the mission of God and, you know, humbly serving the people of God to work together more effectively and doing whatever it takes to make that happen.
Speaker 2:So you mentioned equip and release. What does that look like? Like paint a model for people if they're not familiar with what that process looks like? How do we do that best? What would be some of the best expressions of?
Speaker 3:that, when you look at the priorities of Jesus' life, he came on earth to accomplish salvation. He came on earth to teach and proclaim the kingdom of God and do miracles in order to open people's eyes to the kingdom of God. And then third on his list was to develop 12 disciples. And when you think about the life of Jesus and you can boil it down to those three things and one of them on the list was to disciple 12 people to continue on his work after he was gone To me it begins with that. You model yourself after Jesus, and a priority for us ought to be discipling people. And so to me that happens in relationship. It happens in smaller groups.
Speaker 3:I think we have a tendency to rely, especially for pastors, we rely very heavily on our preaching and public teaching for discipleship, almost as a holistic substitute.
Speaker 3:So to me that happens on the grassroots, it happens in smaller groups, in groups of three to 10 or 12, teaching people how to read the Bible, teaching people how to pray, teaching people how to discern God's voice, teaching people how to discern their giftedness, where God has called them and placed them, what God is calling them to do and be in their lives and to what it means to truly be a disciple of Jesus, following Jesus and then equipping them and showing them how to then share that with other people. So there's a multiplying effect, right? So I invest that in three to 12 people. Help them understand how they then share that with other people. So there's a multiplying effect, right? So I invest that in three to 12 people. Help them understand how they can invest that in three to 12 people. So it's, you know, it's not that complicated, it's simple. We say sometimes it's not easy, but it's, jesus makes it very simple for us.
Speaker 2:What do you think stops that? Why, why, why are there bottlenecks? That that doesn't happen more often?
Speaker 3:I think we just get caught up running the institution. We get very, very busy running programs, balancing budgets, hosting meetings, hosting church and programs, and we mistake being busy and working hard for making disciples. And we just make that mistake and we get caught up in running the institution and if we're working really hard and no disciples are being made, I think we have to take a time out and ask ourselves are we doing the right stuff?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it seems to me like that's also an issue of prioritization, right? Because, as you said, we don't neglect, they don't neglect preaching, so that budgets aren't getting in the way of doing that. So we're making sure that that happens. So there might be an issue there of are our priorities aligned properly? Are we actually thinking about discipleship making the way, as you said Christ did? Discipleship making relationally life on life right In a small group, having a small enough group of people that you can actually call people by name and actually be in relationship and we know each other's names and we know each other's struggles and we know what we're walking through, right, and then actually, as Jesus did say, I'm equipping you to do what I did, to do what I'm doing, not that you know, not that you're going to be the savior, but that you're going to do the same kind of work of ministry that he did, to share the gospel, right To pray, which included preaching Jack.
Speaker 1:I mean we can't throw preaching under the bus. I mean Preaching Jack. I mean we can't throw preaching under the bus. I mean this is the tool, the word work right.
Speaker 2:Exactly. That's the false dichotomy.
Speaker 1:That often gets at play here. No, no, no.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's where it starts. The preaching task is very central to our work together. That's not where I'm getting at what?
Speaker 3:I'm saying yeah, I'm just saying there's more to it is what I'm saying.
Speaker 1:We haven't been trained to teach other, so we just stopped for whatever reason in the Western church because of higher ed seminary.
Speaker 1:I'm not going to go down that path too much, but, like we just surrendered the teaching role as a one-way, I'm the sage in the stage. You're like open up your brain, let me put some stuff in it, but don't, don't do it. You know, don't do it. But in our churches there's X, you know, whatever percentage amount of people who have been gifted to teach. If they have the gift to teach it, they communicate well. Why wouldn't we be bringing them alongside those of us who are proclaimers? It just doesn't make a whole lot of a whole lot of sense, right, right. And obviously we're a part of a congregation that's very active toward that end. For those that want to be a part of that, I'm telling you there is so much life here, like the pool is great man, jump on in. It's a party. It's a party when we start to recognize we can raise up other people to do what we do, especially and all the way up to pastoral proclamation opportunities. Anything more to add there, paul?
Speaker 3:No, I think you're right. It's really important that we don't lose the balance of that and I think I just think, unfortunately, many times the balance goes very heavily skewed towards preaching and teaching, where it's almost our only mechanism to make disciples. But you're right, you certainly don't want to let go of that. It's a very important part. And again, if you just keep going back to the life of Jesus, right, preaching and teaching was very important to Jesus and it should be very important to us. But you just look at the priority, I think, Jack, you're right, it's about priorities, of keeping that discipleship piece as a priority and as pastors, I think, especially sometimes we excuse ourselves from that and even if you don't, my thing is always, even if you don't have time as a pastor, to disciple, make. It's your calling as a Christian, it's a following as a disciple of Jesus to make more disciples. So that needs to just be a part of who you are personally as a follower of Jesus, apart from your calling as pastor.
Speaker 2:And, like it or not, the congregation is going to follow your lead in that, If you want a church of people making disciples, you've got to make disciples and you've got to do that relationally and there's no way around it.
Speaker 1:For sure. You've got to be discipled too, jack. Yeah, that's true. That's the crux of it. Like who am?
Speaker 2:I in discipleship. Who am I coming?
Speaker 1:under. I got a lot of people that I'm coming under, but you can't take someplace. You've never been.
Speaker 2:And so, yeah, I love the conversation on discipleship. I'm curious to hear Paul's thought on that one, what you just mentioned about being in discipleship.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, I think it's that simple for a pastor. Don't ask your people to do anything you're not doing yourself, and so you can't ask your people to be discipled if you're not being discipled too. So whatever you're going to ask your people to do, you better be doing it yourself.
Speaker 1:All right, so let's get into this. I give you mad props, man. You've been at Redeemer Church and School eight years and I'd love to hear the story about how you led toward the rename. This is not for the faint of heart to walk through such a journey, like you're walking through from Redeemer to Bridge City Church. Tell that story.
Speaker 3:Yeah well, I've been here eight years and Redwood City is in the heart of Silicon Valley, where a lot of our families work at the big tech companies. So, as you can imagine, we're located on the peninsula in the Bay Area, which is a very exclusive kind of area, so it's a very unique place to ministry. It's taken me a while just to kind of figure out how things work in Silicon Valley. But yeah, so Redeemer Church is 98 years old, our school's 68 years old, so we've been around for a little while, and when I got here eight years ago we knew that the church needed to kind of have a reset, a new vision, and so we started into that work. I've been kind of setting the stage for eight years.
Speaker 3:One of the things that happened along the way is my son-in-law, corey Garrity. We called him the associate pastor and he went through the CMC program at Concordia, irvine, leading to ordination. So he became pastor and so he gets trained to be a missionary, gets trained to be a church planter. Corey has always had a nose for church planting. He knows every church planter in the Bay Area. He spent seven years networking and learning what works. What doesn't work has been very thoughtful around that. So about a year or two ago, when it came for strategic planning, corey said hey, I think I want to go plant a church somewhere. And and we, kind of as a church, started to talk with Corey and said, well, if you were going to get a young group of people in their 20s 30s together, if you were going to get a young group of people in their 20s 30s together probably more diverse than our church currently is, and to put together a plan to plant a new church on the peninsula, what would that look like? And whatever that plan would look like, let's just do that here at Redeemer. So we're not going to like start just a new ministry. This is going to be a deep change, total replant. We're going to become something new.
Speaker 3:And so we talked to the church about doing that. We processed it for several months. The church agreed that was a good plan moving forward. So we empowered Corey and said we want you to put this group of young people together. We want you to figure out a strategic plan to how we would do this replant, and then we're going to call you as the new lead pastor and you're going to do this. And so we are on the doorstep of that happening. We've been working on it for about a year and a half. We had our last service on August 18th under the name of Redeemer, and on September 15th we will launch as Bridge City Church. So, and Corey has a lead and launch team of young, diverse 20, 30 something year olds from Silicon Valley, and we have a church of people who have said we want to empower you to do what you need to do to reach the next generation in Redwood City. So that's the narrative, that's the story of what's going on, paul. That is awesome.
Speaker 1:I have so much respect for you and Corey. I know Corey, I actually got to teach. Have so much respect for you and Corey I know Corey, I actually got to teach Corey in the CMC program what you find a leader like Corey, you're like get, get out the way, give him the ball and get out the way, like the Holy Spirit is moving through that guy and and you just want to release him. What an awesome model from one generation to the next of raising up a leader. So I'm curious about the details.
Speaker 3:This is a multi. You got two campuses now as Bridge City launches.
Speaker 1:No one campus.
Speaker 3:Yeah, redeemer is becoming Bridge City, okay, wow.
Speaker 1:And he's. He's in transition to be the lead pastor and people want to know like, what's that transition? Like Paul, You're, you still got some game left, obviously. So what are you going to do, Paul?
Speaker 3:Yeah Well, right now. The church asked me to serve about six months ago as executive director over our school. The school needs to do some revisioning and figure out what the future looks like, and so I said I would step in and help lead that process and commit to a couple years of being in that role and seeing how we can help redirect that as well. So that's going to be what I'm doing now. The congregation asked me to stick around for a couple of years, so this is a little bit of a season of waiting for me, of hey, what lies ahead. But you're right, I feel like I still have another chapter left in my public ministry full time. So we're kind of waiting to see what that happens. And so, yeah, that's what I'm going to be doing for the next year or two and kind of looking forward to that and seeing where it leads. So it's a little open ended for me right now, but that's it. That's a good place to be too.
Speaker 1:So is the school remaining Bridgestead? Is the school turning?
Speaker 2:to Bridgestead? That's what exactly I was wondering. Yeah, the school is to Bridge City.
Speaker 3:That's what exactly I was wondering. School's staying Redeemer right now, so we're staying Redeemer. So you know this is, you probably know, St John Ellisville. They switched to Pathfinder Church and kept St John as school. So but part of our process in our school strategic planning process will actually be to process that and say how do we want to name and brand the school? What would be the most effective?
Speaker 3:So I would just add one thing there was, there's an interesting little sub point to this that kind of led us to this conclusion. So you probably know the Bay Area economy is a little out of the ordinary. So in Redwood City a three bedroom, one bath starter home costs about $2 million. So I mean, it's just, it's mind boggling.
Speaker 3:And so there's been a growing trend, especially since the pandemic, that people who are about 50 to 70, when they're starting to approach retirement, or their youngest kid graduates from high school, they're out, they're gone, they sell their house, they cash out, they relocate. So we had a pretty significant exodus of families in that 50 to 70 group that were significant in calling me here and were the key leaders, key supporters, and so there's been a gutting of that, and so that was a wake up call for us of like what are the odds of us rebuilding that segment of 50 to 70 year olds? And the realization was incredibly difficult. We're in a much better position to start afresh by empowering Corey and that lead team to start with the 20s and 30s and build them out. So that was a significant contributor to us saying, hey, this is the right move that God is leading us to take.
Speaker 2:So I am super curious, because in your region you know where people are buying $2 million houses. That means they've got to have really high net worths or high income, right, yes, so what does that look like? Do you see that there's a challenge of discipleship of the wealthy? Because that's something that we've talked a lot internally about it can be really challenging to disciple in environments where people are really financially well off. What is your experience on that?
Speaker 3:Yeah, it absolutely is challenging. I mean, the Bay Area is deeply secular, right? So there's not an inclination toward spirituality at all, and it is an incredibly intense area. People work incredibly hard and so the time, the energy. It is a challenge. Attitudes, hearts these are incredibly competent people who are not always kind of open to being mentored in really any way, shape or form. So, yeah, it presents its challenge and the prosperity is off the charts. It's just hard to even wrap your brain around. So, yeah, it absolutely presents its challenges.
Speaker 2:So how does that inform the strategy? Like when you're thinking about this replant, how does this demographic inform this strategy? I'm just kind of curious about some of the thinking that's been behind it.
Speaker 3:Well, a big part of that demographic is that a lot of the new young tech workers in their 20s and 30s who are moving in many of them can afford to live here long term. So Redwood City is kind of a transitioning community Palo Alto, Menlo they have longtime generational wealth so the people in those communities aren't moving out quite as fast because they have the money to be here. Redwood City was kind of a blue collar service community town and so our members that were members here a long time were blue collar workers, service industry people, so they have a harder time retiring here so they're cashing out. So really the young tech workers are taking over and gentrifying Redwood City. So it's a whole new kind of people. They have a different kind of wealth. They're invested, be here much longer and maybe have the capacity, probably will have the capacity to retire here and stay here. So it has affected strategically why we're doing this.
Speaker 1:Paul, one of our driving whys of this podcast and all three of us are leaders in the Lutheran Church.
Speaker 1:Missouri Synod is contextual hospitality. We have a very, very hard time wrapping our minds around how different it is to do ministry in rural Missouri, kansas, wherever Midwest life, even in some of our more urban church centers Think St Louis, think Kansas City. We have a hard time wrapping our heads around how rampant secularism is in the West, and we're feeling it here in Phoenix as well. We need so many more churches here. We got some mega churches around, but there's so many people moving here, specifically from California, who need to hear the gospel right, and so it's whiplash. Who need to hear the gospel right, and so it's whiplash. I think it's theological, cultural whiplash that we're experiencing right now in the LCMS and we're just struggling. Any words of wisdom regarding how diverse ministry is in California.
Speaker 3:From your experience in the Midwest yeah, I was in 20 years in St Louis too too and so it's radically different. Part of it is the Bay Area is very international. We have people from all over the world moving here. So that alone adds a different dynamic than many places in the United States pluralistic and so it does present immense kind of challenges with that. How do you go about doing that? And you're right, the hospitality thing which is, you know, it just takes so much more of a missionary mindset. You know you.
Speaker 3:Just the only thing I can kind of describe for people is just imagine yourself going to overseas, to another country where the gospel is not present at all. What would you do? You know you wouldn't start, you wouldn't march into a community and say, hey, do you mind if I live here and then start telling them all the things that they're doing that you think is immoral. I mean, you just wouldn't. You wouldn't do that. And you would go in and you would settle into the community. You would get to know people, you would try to earn their respect and trust. You would love them for who they are and you would pray and hope for moments to share the gospel and pray that that brings transformation. And so that's the mindset you have to have here as a missionary, which is, if you're here to be a culture warrior, if you're here to pronounce judgment culture warrior, if you're here to pronounce judgment on people, if you're here to tell people what's wrong with them, I mean you're just going nowhere. You're just not going to make any headway with people. You've got to learn to get to know people, to understand who they are, where they're coming from, respect that they are going to believe very different things than you, but to love and serve them and to walk alongside with them in serving your community, to find common interest of how can we make our community better and pray for opportunities to share the gospel with people.
Speaker 3:Because we have people now who are, you know we talk about post-Christendom. The cycle has already been past that. In the Bay Area we're back to pre-Christendom, where we have people who aren't hostile against Christianity. They don't know the first thing about it. They can't be mad about it because they don't know anything about it. I mean nothing. You ask them any character in the Bible, any story in the Bible, and they don't know it. I mean I'll have one quick anecdote, don't know it. I mean I'll have one quick anecdote. I had a guy who read the story of the Good Samaritan and said, hey, this sounds like a Good Samaritan. I mean just totally, it had never dawned on him that that phrase had come from the Bible. I mean that's, I mean that's so. That's our context. Now we have people who aren't against Christianity. We have people who don't know the first thing about it.
Speaker 2:It's interesting too, because in this post-Christian age that we're entering into, there seems to be a shift, especially amongst young men, that they're becoming more and more conservative. This seems to be an emerging trend. Have you seen anything like that I'm talking about younger men that are kind of graduating from college right now that there seems to be a certain type of disaffect that's maybe making them look I think, look at church a little differently before, maybe trying to find answers that they didn't have before, not necessarily coming from a Christian background, but looking for answers on certain things.
Speaker 3:Boy, I can't say I've seen that much here.
Speaker 2:You haven't seen that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I can't say that the Bay Area here has a very strong secular culture, so if that's happening here, it's small enough that it's really not seeable as a trend.
Speaker 1:So that young leadership team that Corey's kind of gathered, tell us kind of the makeup of that team and are you already thinking, I would imagine, like this team? Yeah, they're going to set up Wood I'm sorry Bridge City, which I love that name, bridge City Church, but they're being trained as missionaries right, and for the church to start to grow, especially in that younger generation, they have to have that missionary mindset. Tell a little bit of that kind of growing leadership development in the 20s and 30s there under Corey's leadership.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so Corey started a young adult ministry called Collective that was his CMC project, right and so that really he was doing ministry in some very creative ways out in the community, outside of the church. He leveraged that network that he created through a lot of time and Jesus and how to live on mission than he was about church, because he was reaching people who it was not on their mind to go to church and that was just not something they were going to do. So you know, from day one he was teaching them to what it meant to follow Jesus and live on mission and so he's just been building off of that. He's put together a very diverse group of people of young tech workers of Redwood City. We have no ethnic majority but the Hispanic community is very strong in Redwood City so he's gotten to know a lot of young Hispanic leaders in the community. He's networking with them.
Speaker 3:Some are a part of kind of the movement. They're kind of attached in that way but probably won't come to church, probably won't be deeply involved in the church but love what Corey's doing and are involved as they're out serving in the community. And he's brought some of those people into the planning team to being investors and supporters of the church, which is kind of the home base for the sending of the mission, but also kind of the peripheral people who are like, hey, I'll be a part of this because I believe in what you're doing and serve in the community, so I love what you're doing and I'll help you in that way. So, yeah, corey's done a really good job of put together a much broader base of support than we probably are typically used to seeing in our church body Love it, love it, love it.
Speaker 1:Hey, let's, let's talk as we come down the homestretch here. The LCMS just a bit. What parts of, as you look at, kind of Lutheran teaching, what parts do you think in the LCMS right now are kind of undervalued and therefore underutilized, and you can go to the other extreme, maybe overvalued and overutilutilized, and you can go to the other extreme, maybe overvalued and overutilized, overemphasized. So, basically, where do you think, as you look at the wider landscape of the LCMS over the last 30 years in your ministry? We're kind of imbalanced in some way, shape or form compared to what you see in scripture and the Lutheran confessions.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know, at a high level I would say we probably don't have an elevated high enough. The mission of God I think we often begin the conversation often starts with the church instead of it starting with the mission of God, and you get very different questions and very different you end up in a very different direction when when the conversation begins with the mission of God, and so I think we tend to overemphasize the church out of balance with the mission of God. I don't think we emphasize enough spiritual leadership, the importance of that, and I think we often overlook too the priesthood of all believers. I don't think we there's a very, I think there's a very strong climate in our church body of control. I think we often are very concerned or afraid that things, if you know, especially we as pastors, if we don't kind of control things, that things are going to go awry theologically or you know who knows what might happen.
Speaker 3:But so I think probably we tend to overemphasize the office of ministry. It's the same thing we just talked about. Right, it's not that the office ministry isn't vital to the church, but you know, we talk about that. We well-trained as pastors to bring the word of God to God's people, but we are not very well-trained in how to help God's people take God's word to the world, and that's, I think, our shortcoming in our pastoral training. We're excellent at teaching pastors how to take God's word to his people who are there in the church, but how do you now then get those people to take the word of God and the message of Jesus to the world? And so I think spiritual leadership is critical to that. I don't think we teach enough around that about the mission of God and the importance of spiritual leadership in that, and then the priesthood of all believers of empowering people to live on mission.
Speaker 1:Jack, any follow-up to that?
Speaker 2:No, I think you've nailed it here. I think the healthiest expressions of church nowadays would be, you know, any kind of congregation and I'm sure every pastor would say that they agree with it. But does it actually play out actually equipping the priesthood of all believers right? Actually doing that? If that's actually what a value is and it is very much a theological value how does it actually play out with our behavior? Do we actually believe that ministry is the congregation's job and the pastor is here to equip people to do ministry, rather than ministry is only the pastor's job and it's everybody's job just to pay the salary of the pastor, so he does ministry right?
Speaker 2:It's a different paradigm and there needs to be challenge and reminder and behavior that goes into that, to actually elevate this role and actually tell people no, you have permission to share the gospel with your neighbors. Not only do you have your permission to do that, that's actually your identity. Priest is an identity that people have that I think they're not taught enough about. That identity that we hold. And so, caring for our neighbors, praying for our neighbors, sharing the gospel with our neighbors, serving our neighbors these are all these things that go into that identity of priest. That is like genuinely, a hundred percent, the identity of every baptized believer. But are we equipping them to do that?
Speaker 1:Well, right, I'm going to, I'm going to put the best construction on things. I think there are fewer pastors in the LCMS that are in it because they're power hungry. I'm the air pastor kind of thing. I think over time and just look at it systemically, I think over time we've just kind of regressed to the lowest common denominator, meaning Sunday worship, and pastors realize that, yeah, they're called to equip and release and start and do a lot of those things, but they've never actually if they're not curious, if they've been kind of put in their place by because there are always power dynamics in every group of people, right, Hierarchy driven, because there are always power dynamics in every group of people, right, Hierarchy driven If they've been put in their place by grandma or grandpa Schmittke right, who have run the church for multiple generations and told you do these things and we do these things. We run the church and, by the way, we're going to keep the church the same. We're going to keep the church.
Speaker 1:I think there's a lot of guys that are just feeling stuck. And then not only that, but then you've got the world changing. So at least my church, whether it's 50 people, 100 people, at least I know what to expect here. I know my role here, right? I mean I'm called to do these small amount of things. The paycheck continues to come. We've got maybe a small endowment, so there's not a lot of urgency necessarily, Even if we move. You know, year over year we lose five because they're departing and going to be with the Lord, right? I just think that I have a lot of empathy for and I think we do, Jack, in the ULC for pastors that just are in smaller congregations. They know they're in need of revitalization but they just don't have someone coming along alongside them consistently to help them. Just take we talk about next steps in discipleship a lot here, right, Jack, Just help the pastor, take the.
Speaker 1:I don't need to know the whole system. You're going to overwhelm me. Just the right next step.
Speaker 2:They may not feel personally equipped and they may feel like they don't have permission. Those are kind of two things that I do see often, unfortunately. It's very sad, yeah, Paul any take there?
Speaker 3:No, I think your analysis, your summary, is very true. I think you're right. I think we don't have a lot of pastors in our church body who are hungry for power. I think a lot of times that's primarily what they've been taught, and often there's a lot of pressure. Leading change is a very challenging and difficult thing, and especially difficult if you're not even sure what change is needed and how to undertake that. So, yeah, a lot of pastors realize some type of change is needed, but don't know what that really is or how to lead it. And so I agree, I think there's there's good reason to have a lot of empathy and to ask how can we, how can we help churches and pastors to renew and reinvent themselves?
Speaker 1:I mean, this is the power of pastoral coaching and all a coach does is kind of mirrors back. I have a number of guys I'm coaching, right, I just am taught to mirror back. I'm not going to tell you what to do, I'm going to let you talk and it's going to funnel down to your priorities and then you're going to say I'm committed to doing this one, two, three things Not any more than that, but they're significant things and then I'm going to get back together with you next month and I'm going saying I can't coach that. You know a lot. I'm about maxed out right now. But, um, you need to find a pastoral pastoral coach. There's a number of coaching networks, paul. Are you aware of any kind of coaching networks that? You're like man if a guy's listening to the Holy spirit speak in any any coaching words of wisdom, paul.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more. I think having a coach is critical. There's entities in our church body that provide that. Pli has gotten a lot into coaching. Nowadays. We work with Kevin Ford who works with Leighton Ford Ministries. They do a lot of coaching mentoring groups. So they're out there. They're not too difficult to find and just ask a friend if you don't have one. But you're right that that is a critical piece to helping figure those things out what needs to change and how do I do?
Speaker 1:it Amen. Well, the ULC exists to be a part of that change. Jack, I know you need to head out. I just have one more question for Paul. Good work, jack, thank you, thank you. So, paul, you and your team have focused on let's offer a tool here that's really, really helpful. You guys have started to utilize the six types of working genius. With Patrick Lencioni, talk about that journey of utilizing the working genius. We use it, all of our new hires get it, all of our teams have it and we speak from it. So first summarize what the six types of working genius is and how it's playing out in your ministry.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so Patrick Lencioni is a Bay Area guy table group and so he's very active in the Bay Area. He's a great supporter of the church, he gives a lot back to the church and so we've been fortunate to be able to go to some of his local conferences and trainings that he supports and is a part of that. But, yeah, the nice part is it's a simple little model widget six working geniuses, which tends to, on one end of the scale is kind of people who are very high level, see big picture patterns, and then the other end of the scale are people who tend to be very much kind of at ground level, detail oriented, task oriented, and then a range in between. And you know the acronym is widget, right? So you have wonder, invention, discernment, galvanizing. So you have wonder, invention, discernment, galvanizing, enablement and tenacity, and that how every project and every team needs people with all of those working geniuses. They each contribute in their unique way. Everybody has two that they tend to rely on heavily, two that they struggle with and two that they're kind of competent in, and so, yeah, we started sharing that with our staff and just kind of processing what does this mean?
Speaker 3:And just what you see when that starts happening is people A starting to appreciate their own giftedness and how they contribute to a team and realizing how they can be a more effective contributor to the team. But also then they see their shortcomings and where other people who have those strengths need to come in and round out a project or a plan or a team by bringing out of those other complimentary gifts. So I tend to be, you know, I'm wonder and discernment, so I tend to focus on big picture things. And so, man, I love having a couple tenacity people around me who are like all right, paul, let's get this thing over the finish line. I, you know, I got it. I find those kinds of people who are like give me a couple of tenacity people you know and then give me a Corey, who's a you know, he's a Mr Galvanizer, so Corey can get anybody excited about anything. And so you know, you get a great team together and you know, good things happen.
Speaker 1:That's so good. Have you noticed that one of those kind of traits in the church gets kind of downplayed, or? Or you could look at it this way some of your teams need more of this type of a of a trait. So for us, we're always you mentioned cory and galvanizing we're always looking for galvanizers. There's a place for you on our team to galvanize people around the vision, whatever the vision is, and to keep them. They're kind of the I'm galvanizing and discernment they're. They're kind of the rah-rah folks. They're the energy, the energy folks we're. We're pretty high on our teams on wonder and tenacity. We've got a number of people in our central. They love the details. Devil's in the details got to look right, so you got to have those people. But for us, in our context, is galvanizing. What is it for you, paul?
Speaker 3:yeah, I would agree. I think galvanizing is often a missing piece and it's often one we under appreciate and underestimate. You know, we have a great idea and then we just want to race to implementing it, and it's that step in between of saying, hey, listen, we need to get people rallied around this, we need people to believe in this and support this. So I do think that's. I think that is probably one that's overlooked often. But part of it is just an organization. You know, you, we, we have this kind of subtle tendency to recruit and find people who are like us, who speak the same language as us. So you got to go. It's really easy. All of a sudden, you look up and you look at your organization and go, oh goodness, we don't have anybody with tenacity, we don't have anybody with galvanizing, and so you got to be intentional and thoughtful about those things, because our default mode will be to hire people who think and talk and act like us. So you got to work at it right, but I do. I think, yeah, galvanizing is often overlooked.
Speaker 1:Well, I have no data here, but I have a hunch that many of the galvanizing leaders have been labeled as enthusiasts in the LCMS and summarily kind of kicked to the curb and that the galvanizing tendency on a number of our teams I'm looking at from institutions to churches in general and I'm just speaking about how I could be kind of mischaracterized. Last week in church I closed with this kind of rally speech about the bride of Christ, the body of Christ, to not downgrade or diminish the role of the body of Christ. And one of our members, a longtime member, came out and it's probably I don't think it was listed, it was probably one of the more like pastors get casually offensive things that that come and he says, pastor, I look at the world and and you know he's I highly respect this man Actually, you know I I look at the world and it's going so fast. It's going so fast and you're feeding to the fastness in the world, pastor, and it's like and you're feeding to the fastness in the world, pastor, and it's like I think you've just misunderstood how God made me as a galvanizing leader.
Speaker 1:And do I have to temper that to my audience? Oh, yeah, for sure, the way I speak cross-culturally et cetera. But we've highlighted, I think in the LCMS Western Germanic I think the discerner maybe right and we're very kind of stoic and reserved, kind of pulled back and we've struggled to embrace, I think a lot of because I'm not alone here Many of the galvanizers in our midst Speaking a little higher level any insights as we connect to our Lutheran culture in general there, paul, I would agree with your take.
Speaker 3:I think in the LCMS we have a tendency to drift towards intellectualism.
Speaker 3:We have a very high value on academics, on theology, on scholarship, on academics, on theology, on scholarship, you know. So if we have a tendency, it's to drift too strongly that way. And so I think sometimes we see energetic galvanizing, that kind of stuff which is very important for people to do work as kind of you know, non-intellectual, you know that's not as important, let's not get carried away with enthusiasm and all that kind of you know that leads towards, you know, charismatic gifts and those kind of things. So there's just kind of that sensitivity of you know, and don't build around the personality of that leader because their personality is so big and you know, galvanizers usually tend to have a bigger personality. They attract people, that's what they do. But instead of seeing that as an important, equal part of the whole, we tend to drift towards intellectualism and pondering and systematics. And so, yeah, I think that's just part of the culture, of our heritage, our culture, and it's kind of embedded in kind of who we are as a church body, nationally for sure.
Speaker 1:If you look at the apostles, who was the galvanizer? I have an opinion here. Who was the galvanizer among the 12, Paul?
Speaker 3:The galvanizer among the 12, that's a good one. Um, I've never thought of that question before. Um, well, who was uh the one that said hey, come, come and see jesus?
Speaker 1:uh, philip john john yeah, yeah, maybe, I mean, I think john, definitely. Um, I, I think peter, I I think peter's standing up at Pentecost rallying, rallying the troops, I cause sometimes galvanizers too can put their foot in their mouth. Right, I have, I, I, I maybe speak before I think, and um, I'm very Paul Peter's a zealot, right, he's very, very eager to see transformation.
Speaker 1:And yet his zealousness, I think, gets leveraged by the power softened, I'd say, by the power of the Holy Spirit. But galvanizers can also be people pleasers. Right, I want to draw people together, and so the tendency could be compromise, you know, you see Peter then, and Paul is very, very to the point, with him trying to compromise as it relates to Gentile inclusion and Jewish inclusion around the gospel too. So every gift this is a beauty every gift from God, because it's saturated with sin, has gaps, there's shadow sides to how God made us, and unless we can clearly articulate where some of those shadow sides could be, we don't have a bridge. Shout out to Bridge City Church, a bridge in relationship to the gifts of the wider body of Christ. Any closing comments there? Paul, this has been fun.
Speaker 3:No, that's a great insight about Peter, and you're right, and so, and you're right and so, you know, I agree, a Peter type in the LCMS would kind of be against the grain, you know, and Peter in general, even in broader society. But you need those people. You need those people who are willing to be that kind of, you know, that cheerleader out front getting people excited, and it's a vital part of it. It's a vital part of it. And, like you said, everything comes with the. Everything comes with you know, cause I, as me, I drift towards, I drift towards the cerebral thinking kind of side. I'm an introvert, that's kind of my thing too, and so I'm, like I tend to, but you know, it can often keep me from the relationships I need, like I have to. You know, to me it's like, hey, paul, you need to get out there and and there and work on the relationship side of things too. So, yeah, it's important that we're in tune right with the dark side of every strength. So yeah, that's incredible.
Speaker 3:I love that insight about Peter. That's, I think it's probably spot on.
Speaker 1:Jesus has really hard words for Peter too, right, do you love me? Do you love me? Do you love me? He restores him and then he says he's going to, he gives him his mission and then he says there's going to come a time where someone leads you in a way that you don't want to go. You know, you think you're galvanizing, but the cross, peter, is going to be your, your outcome, just like it was pretty much for all of them Minus minus John. You know they, they gave their lives, all of their gifts were stewarded, leveraged, transformed in the cruciform manner to give their life away on behalf of the one who'd given his life for the world. And the world was changed because Jesus focused on those 12 and released them, and we're the beneficiaries of it. It's such a humbling, humbling thing, paul. This has been so much fun.
Speaker 1:Brother, thank you for your ministry. It's an honor to partner with you. I mean praying for Bridge City Church. I'm praying for Corey and his team. I'm praying for transformation. I'm praying for growth, that more young people, as you say, we're going to stick and stay here in this community.
Speaker 1:Shout out to all of the precious saints at Redeemer who said you know what the mission of God is? The primary thing, and if it makes sense for us, we're holding only the cross of Jesus Christ, who holds us in the palm of his hand with a closed fist. Everything else, even up to the point of our name, which is a major, major transformation you kind of spoke about it Even in a place like Silicon Valley, still, a major transformation took place in the hearts, a humbling transformation took place in the hearts of the leaders there to go on this journey, and I applaud it. Paul, praise be to God for leaders like you who are praying about that next season of life. I'm going to be praying for you, paul, that the Lord leads you. We need your wisdom, we need your discernment in the body of Christ. So praying for your next transformative leadership opportunity too, paul. If people want to connect with you, brother, how can they do so?
Speaker 3:Yeah, easiest is pschultz at Redeemer RWC, which is redwoodcityorg, and my website is paulschultzcom. But that's just if you want like bulk orders of my book. I communicate mostly through email. It's the easiest way to get a hold of me.
Speaker 1:Amen, amen. This is lead time. Jack had to step out, but it was an honor to end this conversation with you. Paul Sharing is caring, like, subscribe, comment wherever it is you take in these podcasts, and we promise to continue to have invigorating conversations with leaders like Paul, most often within the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, praying that the mission of God would drive us as his church. It's a good day. Go make it a great day. Thanks so much, paul. Blessings on your ministry, thanks. Yeah, you too.