Lead Time
Lead Time
Revolutionary Ideas: Enduring Impact of Martin Luther's 95 Theses with Dr. Joel Okamoto
What if Martin Luther's 95 Theses still hold the key to understanding our modern world? Reverend Dr. Joel Okamoto joins us to uncover the timeless significance of Luther's challenge to the Roman Catholic Church, initially meant to ignite scholarly debate yet resulting in a revolutionary shift. We engage with the importance of open dialogue within church bodies and the role of academic thought leaders in fostering meaningful conversations that can lead to transformative change.
Explore how Nietzsche's provocative claim that "God is Dead" parallels Luther's first thesis, reflecting a societal shift toward secularism and disorientation. We confront the unsettling concepts of divine sovereignty, election, and justification by grace alone, encouraging both believers and non-believers to reexamine their assumptions about faith, sin, and trust in God's word. Our conversation also dives into the complex relationship between Christianity and secularism, drawing insights from Nietzsche and Charles Taylor to navigate the post-Christendom world with courage and confidence.
Finally, we tackle the relevance of Lutheran theology in today's spiritual landscape, emphasizing the paradigm shift from a theology of glory to a theology of the cross. Reverend Dr. Okamoto shares insights on how engaging with diverse spiritual narratives can bridge gaps and enrich our understanding of faith. Through examining the transformative power of baptism and justification, we strive to foster unity and mutual respect within the Lutheran community, highlighting our shared identity as children of God. Join us in this compelling exploration of Luther's legacy and its profound impact on living out faith today.
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Welcome to Lead Time, tim Allman, here with Jack Kauberg, we pray. The joy of the crucified and risen Jesus rests upon you today as you lean into a conversation, a second part conversation with Reverend Dr Joel Okamoto. He is occupying the Waldemar and Mary Griesbach Chair of Systematic Theology I probably said that wrong and as the Chair of the Department of the Systematic Theology Department there at Concordia Seminary in St Louis for a number of years. How long has that been now, joel?
Speaker 2:Oh, I served for nine years, although I'm no longer the chair recently. No longer the chair, ok.
Speaker 1:Since last time we talked. Maybe Anyhow, today we're going to lean into the 95 theses that Dr Okamoto wrote a number of years ago in honor of the 500-year celebration of the Reformation and really talk about the need for public discourse and or debate today. So before we get on that, right before we hit record, these two, jack and Joel, were going at it regarding the history of Luther's 95 Theses. Why did he write it and what did you hope to accomplish? Then We'll go back some 500 plus years into that context and then we'll move quickly into what you were hoping to accomplish with your 95 Theses, dr Okamoto. How are you doing today, brother?
Speaker 2:I'm doing really well. Thanks for inviting me. No, no, it's my honor.
Speaker 1:It's going to be fun. So from your perspective I mean you were talking about Tim Dost, next door Dr Dost and talking history and the Reformation Give us a little bit of the context of Luther's 95 Theses, what he was hoping to accomplish.
Speaker 2:Yeah thanks. So Luther wrote a set of theses about the indulgences that the Roman Catholic Church was selling at the time the idea of indulgences, things like purgatory and so he had written some theses for discussion and debate. That was a usual thing that academics did. This is a way they tested people. Instead of writing like dissertations, you had disputations. And so Luther wrote a number of theses it's just turned out they were 95 about this and Jack brought up that's right. There actually was no actual debate over them, but they were widely distributed, right.
Speaker 3:And they caused a doctor of theology and in that context, becoming a doctor of theology, he's sworn on his life that he is supposed to teach only the truth and correct the errors of the church. If he finds any errors as a doctor of theology, right and in comes the indulgence peddlers into his beloved Germany area and he is seeing this as damaging the care of souls. So he is motivated to write this 95 thesis attacking the doctrine of indulgences. Many statements that he would have in the 95 thesis would be like later on. If you compare his writings later on, they would not even necessarily be consistent with things later on. That we would say is Lutheranism. But what he's doing is he's actively inviting a debate on these topics. We need to talk about this. This is a serious issue and as a doctor of theology he cares very deeply about it and the whole posting of that is to invite debate. Maybe I'm wrong, but we need to talk about this right. We need to talk about this right.
Speaker 3:And the response from the Roman authority at the time, the Roman Catholic Church, is we are not debating this. This is as far as we're concerned. It is what it is. Now there's a deeper scandal going on right. The indulgence selling is part of a massive capital campaign to pay off some debts in order to purchase a bishop position and build a massive cathedral right, and so there's some monetary incentives to shut him up. There's also some power issues in order to shut him up, because he's kind of challenging the authority of the pope and kind of saying, hey, this is a mistake. Well, you can't have that. We can't have it saying that the Pope made a mistake about something, right, and so the response is we're not debating this. And when he eventually is called up to the authorities, the authorities don't debate, they say you must recant, right, that's the response.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but even at this time Luther is not questioning actually the authority of the Pope, it's rather someone should tell him that this is going on.
Speaker 3:He's not questioning the authority of the Pope. He's saying it's possible for the Pope to make an error, though Right?
Speaker 2:That did come up, but yeah, it really was. Yeah, it did escalate. It became a matter of not only theology but church authority.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:That became evident quickly and that's yeah.
Speaker 3:And so I think what's going on is we could say that history in many ways tends to play itself out in the same way within church bodies and I'm not saying that anything that we're going through is exactly like what's going on there, but there can be sometimes a tendency to say, well, we've settled things and we're not debating them. Right, and is that always the healthiest thing for a church body of any type to ever adopt that type of posture on things? Can we continue to make assertions about things and enter into in the spirit of goodwill and truth and, you know, collaboratively, saying we want to talk about in the best spirit of things, to understand what the truth is about things, and maybe we've understood things a little bit off Right and maybe we need to do a little bit of course correction, and I think that is the beauty of having a church body that's open to having conversations about theses, right? I think that's really what we're trying to get at right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, hey, dr, we don't do it that way anymore, but we don't do it that way.
Speaker 1:But let's, let's get into it a little bit. I mean, I think the academy, seminary, professors, exegetes, systematicians et cetera play an active role in creating exploratory thought in the public square today. Role in creating exploratory thought in the public square today and I appreciate you just being on this podcast. Some folks may have certain ideas about Jack or I or Lead Time or the United Leadership Collective. We're simply, if you boil it right down, we just want to have active conversation about how the church can thrive in a post-Christian secular culture today and everything that entails in that leadership development, how we engage the world culture et cetera. And unfortunately I don't know that we're having the exploratory thought conversations in the LCMS as consistently as I wish we would. And so talk about the role of the academy and seminary. Do you think today Cast some vision for the role that you could play in creating space for exploratory thought? Joel?
Speaker 2:Yeah, thanks for asking. The mission statement of Concordia Seminary is to provide theological education and leadership for church and world in the name of the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. And so of course, some of it is the teaching, a lot of it is, but some of it is in the name of the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, praise God. So of course, some of it is the teaching, a lot of it is, but some of it is leadership, theological leadership, trying to find opportunities to get into it. So this is one of those and I thank you for that.
Speaker 2:And you did bring up the idea of exploratory thought and we talked about that when I was on the last one too. That's a psychological term, but it's the idea of exploring positions in terms of the other kinds of good or reasonable alternatives, as opposed to what they call confirmatory thought, which is just a one-sided effort to support whatever position or argument you have. And of course that is a real tendency. One of my colleagues, david Maxwell I'm talking about this, this is years ago said well, you know, in the early church there was very little exploratory thought. They tended to treat their opponents as if they were either ignorant or evil and not worthy of actually the exchange.
Speaker 2:But that of course, you can see, is a temptation, especially when you talk about the post-Christian secular situation and the reaction of churches often been quite defensive and you speak out of suspicion and fear too often and that's antithetical to Christian witness, I mean all sorts of things. But it's understandable in one sense, but that doesn't excuse me. But how do we try to pursue these kinds of things? It's understandable in one sense, but that doesn't excuse me. But how do we try to pursue these kinds of things? My 95, theses the ones I wrote which weren't overindulgences was an attempt to.
Speaker 3:Here are some things. Let's talk about them. You have a go ahead, jack. Yeah, what do you think might be in your statements, your 95 theses? What do you think might be the statements that are the hardest to talk about for people, if you had to? If you just your own subjects, your own subjective opinion on it.
Speaker 2:Well, there are a couple. One is the very first thesis, which is from Nietzsche God is Dead. That's a statement about our cultural situation.
Speaker 2:You mentioned, tim, a secular age. I saw that you had Josh Holman on recently, and he spoke some about that too, and I know he said he got that from Charles Taylor. And what Charles Taylor is talking about, though, is the same kind of situation that Nietzsche was talking about when he said God is dead. It isn't a statement about atheism that Nietzsche was talking about when he said God is dead. It isn't a statement about atheism, although Nietzsche certainly wasn't an atheist. No, it's a cultural statement. It's when it used to be. Belief in God, the Christian God, was unquestionable, formative.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you couldn't even you could barely even imagine something apart from that. But now of course that's quite changed. It doesn't mean there aren't believers, but the whole situation for everybody is different is disorienting. But I think, going back to being defensive we try to stop that, or we might. Some will just withdraw into their own little communities, sectarianism. Those are not genuine Christian responses. So that would be. One. Another would be, I think, the idea that when it comes to God, might makes right Might makes right.
Speaker 2:God is the creator and whatever he does is good and right. And if you don't like it, too bad, this is an implication of creation Right.
Speaker 3:What he's spoken is true. That's it right.
Speaker 2:That's it, yeah, that's it, yeah. And on the other hand, if God does speak for you, to you, then all is good. The idea that God does whatever he wants is, by itself, terrifying. Yes, the idea or the promise of God. You're mine. I forgive you. You will live Well. Now, if God is for us, who can be against us? So might makes right, might makes right, both in the abstract and when it where and pleases God for you.
Speaker 3:But that is a very offensive doctrine, right? Yes, yes.
Speaker 2:Yeah for you, but that is a very offensive doctrine, right? Yes, yes. So the idea that God has favorites, the doctrine of election, the doctrine of justification by grace alone are, to the sinner, offensive. It's those kinds of teachings that actually make us sinners, in the sense that sin is not trusting in God, not believing in God, not think that everything God says is good.
Speaker 3:So would you consider your thesis to be an invitation to have discussion with unbelievers, or is it more for theologians to try and understand how to talk to unbelievers? These were for Christians. What's that? They were for Christians. What's that?
Speaker 2:They were for Christians, okay, but it is for Christians trying to live in our post-Christendom secular situation and the first thing you do is let's acknowledge what it is. Yeah, and also our complicity. The Christian church not necessarily any particular persons, but kind of the church's complicity in this. It's been the church taking a lot for granted for centuries. That has certainly contributed toward this, contributed toward this. A fascinating thing is so going back to Charles Taylor. He argued in over 750 pages basically it was the attempt of Christians for a thousand years to try to make everybody 100% Christian that led to the secular age. Is right.
Speaker 2:Somewhere else Nietzsche had said something like this Christian morality drove out Christian truth. Those are remarkable statements, but if you just look at this, we didn't come to the situation. It didn't kind of overwhelm us, it came from within. So what is it?
Speaker 2:And it's not about casting blame on people. It's rather recognizing. You live in a situation where you don't have to identify your God, you don't have to argue for why you think your sacred books actually are authoritative. You don't have to argue for why bother with sacraments. Then you lose the capacity even to imagine after a while what it would be to retain that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, now, of course, if you look, the early church of course had to do this, and that's why looking back at the ancient church is such a helpful thing. And then Luther himself was trying to recover and did a lot of this, and so actually looking at what Luther did, changing things is actually quite helpful, for our time too. So it's not like we don't have resources to do this. It's not about that, but rather it is the well first, the willingness to own up to the situation, and then the courage, the confidence in God to move forward. But then how do you do this? No, it's not prepackaged. There's no algorithm for this. No, we have to come through it by conversation, experiments, willingness to actually fail in some things, which is, of course, never easy.
Speaker 3:Hey, dr Okamoto would you Go ahead, tim Go ahead.
Speaker 1:Jack, you finish the thought. You finish the thought. I'm transitioning.
Speaker 3:Well, it might be too much to go into, but I was going to say you know, to what extent might Luther actually agree to your first thesis of God is dead? He had a very apocalyptic view of the world that he saw himself in. He saw, eventually, right. This is a difference between what we see later in Luther and what he initially has seen in the 95 thesis. His eventual conclusion is what we call the church is being run by the antichrist and so is God dead. He might, in his own way, say amen to that, based on how, what he was living through, right, um, our context is different. There's people that don't even agree, you know, with the first part of the of the creed. I believe in god, the father, creator of heaven and earth. At least people believed in that at the time, and that's not what we're dealing with now, right, right. So it's a different context.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it is a different context. Yeah, but we were talking. This is where Tim jumped in and said, no, no, we have to talk about this in recording, don't just waste it all here.
Speaker 3:I know.
Speaker 2:But I had mentioned that from a theological standpoint the Heidelberg Disputation, those theses are much more significant.
Speaker 3:Yes, I agree.
Speaker 2:So, bob Kolb, you know Bob Kolb, of course he had called what Luther's theology of the cross in the heidelberg dissertation. It constituted a paradigm shift in how the western church thought about.
Speaker 2:You know, revelation, righteousness, those things, yeah, I, I bring that up because, as I'm pretty sure you know and maybe a lot of the listeners, the viewers know too. But in case you don't, he's getting that from the philosopher of science, thomas Kuhn, who used this to try to explain how scientific knowledge advanced. It didn't advance only or primarily through a small accumulation of this and that, but rather also in revolutions where the whole way of thinking about things shifted. Now I bring that up because Kuhn's idea of paradigm itself was. He used it in a couple of different ways and he had to explain himself later but he said he thought the most novel and least appreciated sense of paradigm was as exemplar. That here is a theory, or here is a way a person did something that stands for a whole way of doing things. It's not everything, it's rather here's the exemplar. Luther was an exemplar. He was taking Paul in 1 Corinthians 1 as an exemplar Christ crucified and applying it to his situation.
Speaker 3:And.
Speaker 2:I would say we could do a lot with Luther, like in the Heidelberg Disputation and apply it to our situation now in the same way.
Speaker 1:So go deeper there, joel. How would we apply it today? Get more specific, if you would.
Speaker 2:Yeah, would we apply it today? Get more specific if you would? Yeah, well, in the Heidelberg disputation Luther talks about righteousness of works and then the human will and how these are. These cannot bring you to righteousness. But then he shifts to the idea of the theologian of the cross and the theologian of glory. And the theologian of Glory is someone who assumes that as things work on earth, so they are in heaven. To say it that way, If you do what is right, if you try hard, if you have a goodwill, things work out. And even if they don't, it's not your fault. That's how things go on earth. You did your best.
Speaker 2:The assumption was that's how things go on earth. You did your best.
Speaker 2:And the assumption was that's how things go with God. Yeah, and the answer is no Right Things go with God, as he made himself known, in Jesus Christ, who was crucified. Jesus and Paul brings this up it's not through wisdom, it's through foolishness. It's not through wisdom, it's through foolishness. It's not through strength, it's through weakness. That's how God operated, and Luther saw that and realized in a different situation, though this was also the problem for the church of his time time. So I would say I mean, if you want to pursue this, no, we have to return to understanding and following God as he made himself known through the Christ, who got himself crucified and whom God raised from the dead.
Speaker 2:All Christians will acknowledge Jesus was crucified, but it's not just talking about the fact historical fact of the way he died, but rather the kind of life he led. The ministry he conducted led to rejection. He was a stumbling block to the Jews, but also a foolishness to the Greeks. But this is the way God actually brings himself to us and brings salvation, and we should stand with that. So in a time when God is dead, we have an opportunity. Well, fair enough. Okay, it's just a historical situation, we're Christians, let's just go with it anyway.
Speaker 2:Is that answering your question there. Oh, yeah, tim. Yeah, definitely Jack. Any follow-up, I feel?
Speaker 3:like I've had it described, that what we're living through in society right now is a combination of modernist and postmodernist secularism which leads people to kind of a universal, therapeutic, ethical Gnosticism. That's really what is leading to people which is different than Christianity but really does fit into the category of the theology of glory, would you agree?
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, I'm not sure I fully understood what you said, but yeah, it's a lot, it's a lot to unpack.
Speaker 3:But basically they're saying that they're spiritual, even though they don't agree with Christianity, right yeah, and the way that they see themselves, like their story about themselves is I'm trying to become more ethical, I'm trying to understand the truth through observation. I'm trying to become an ethical being and somehow the universe is rewarding me for that. And there is maybe some sort of spiritual presence to the universe, but I'm not prepared to call that God, right?
Speaker 2:Yes, there is maybe some sort of spiritual presence to the universe, but I'm not prepared to call that God right? Yes, that would be for sure.
Speaker 1:Right, so one of my Go ahead, go ahead.
Speaker 2:I was going to say Luther could not have imagined that kind of situation.
Speaker 3:I know it's radically different, right.
Speaker 1:Well, and this is the crux of the conversation today. Well, and this is the crux of the conversation today, you guys are speaking in theory and in story. Let's get very practical, because the church has to learn to listen. Leaders have to learn to listen to one another and deeply understand one another's point of view. And unless we can do that within the church, how can we have a listening posture to understand the stories that people are telling themselves and then, with the Apostle Paul and the early church, say you know, it's the Athenian, it's, I see you have many gods right. And how do we bring the one true God, the triune God, the story of creation to recreation into that? Because if we compete, if we come in angry, if we come in closed, we're never going to. You know, god wants this is the radical thing Dr Okamoto is God wants to work through us, like he speaks through us, through the church. God's mission has a church and unless and God's mission is to get all of his kids back, I mean we agree in the LCMS, hopefully. This is why the church exists To be the gathering for the found, to be sent to reach the lost. God is on a mission Unless we can posture ourselves with the humility of Christ, that we listen twice as much as we speak, we're not going to get to the accountability conversations.
Speaker 1:I've been wanting to bring this quote in for some time. I mean, you say and I think you're prefaced to the 95 Theses that you wrote, accountability increases exploratory thought we talked about that earlier only when three conditions apply. One, decision makers learn, before forming any opinion, that they will be accountable to an audience. The audience's views then point number two are unknown. This is exploratory thought. We don't fully understand the audience. Three, and they believe the audience is well informed and interested in accuracy, like can we have that apply across the aisles, if you will, in the lcms? And then can those, those three principles, those values, apply then as we reach out evangelically into the world? And I think that's one of the driving whys behind your thesis. You want the answer to be yes. So anything to say about a listening posture of accountability?
Speaker 2:toward exploratory thought around those three values, dr Okamoto? Yes, and I'll start. Accountability, this kind of thing, or this way of speaking, this exploratory thought, only happens when you actually assume something about others and to respect them a certain way way. Uh, do you know who david ogilvie was? He was, tell me, he wrote the book is 60 years old confessions of an advertising man. He was, uh, at advertising age and advertising executive, very successful. He has a line well, it's interesting because my wife I was explaining this book to her, my mother-in-law and my wife said it's one of his favorites. Oh, that's interesting if she says so. It is, and it maybe changed my mind about the value of marketing for the church.
Speaker 2:I had had for 30 years almost entirely negative view about marketing, but he changed my mind. He has this line the consumer isn't a moron. She is your wife. You insult her intelligence if you think a mere slogan and a few vapid adjectives will persuade her to buy anything. Well, yeah, we cannot. We can, obviously we cannot. We can, obviously we can. We do this a lot, but no, we should regard others in a much more positive, respectful way. There are people who are interested in what's good and right. There are people who want to think about it. They're willing, they want to know what you think is accurate, the truth. It doesn't always happen, of course, but we should assume it much more. That should be, in a lot of places, our default posture. And if we did that, then what would we say? How would we talk? Talk what we want to bring out here. We will tend to be less defensive ourselves if we just realized they just want our, our best answer.
Speaker 3:They just want our best reasons.
Speaker 2:Uh, actually, it's freeing. We don't have to worry so much about am I coming through as am I persuading them. No, it's freeing. We don't have to worry so much about am I coming through, as am I persuading them. No, it's rather, they just want to know how things are. Okay, I can tell you, we'll let the spirit work as he wills.
Speaker 3:It frees you to be authentic with people in your discourse right yes, authentically Christian to be faithful without worrying about it.
Speaker 2:So we should take confidence Without trying to be a salesman right Well that's the interesting thing. But this is, for Olga, the secret of good salesmanship you talk about something that's good in clear, concrete, positive ways, and it will happen. It doesn't always happen, but yeah.
Speaker 3:I think people respond like the best type of salesman is an authentic salesman. They don't pretend everything is right.
Speaker 1:They are honest.
Speaker 3:They are honest, they are also honest about what's good and how somebody might think about how this may be good for me, right um, right, yeah, uh, and this, this is pertinent for the christian church.
Speaker 2:uh, going back to ogilvy said you know, the heart of any ad is a promise, a big promise. It's like oh, that's the heart of the Christian message too is a promise, a big, big promise it's like huh there's a lot to learn from this guy.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so the promise of Christianity, like where it goes wrong is if we pretend that people aren't going to suffer in life. Right. That's an inauthentic selling of Christianity. What it does do is it gives you peace and joy in the midst of your suffering, right.
Speaker 2:That is the true. The promise does. That's right.
Speaker 3:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:But to make that promise. You know why do we have this promise? And it goes back to Jesus, who himself was crucified and then raised again and then said for those who want to follow him, deny yourself, take up your cross and follow me. There's much about Jesus which we cannot and should not imitate. He's the Lord, but in this, following him toward it could be shame, suffering death. No, he calls on that we should too. That doesn't mean inviting that on us that we should too. That doesn't mean inviting that on us.
Speaker 2:It's rather, we're going to follow. We'll see what happens, because in the end, we have the promise of the resurrection and the life of the age to come.
Speaker 1:Hey, let's get into your evolution regarding marketing with a little bit more depth and application for the lcms. No, I think there's something here.
Speaker 1:I think I think some of our dividing lines are, and I'll put myself on one side I am pro sales of jesus and the gospel with the authenticity of the theology of the cross, just like you are articulating right now. I think there there happen to be and we're painting with a broad brush here there happen to be others that if you are passionate, you're an enthusiast, if you come across like with some zeal, you know you could be compromising your placing yourself in front of the gospel. If you pander to anything of the world, you're selling out on the gospel. If you use any first article realities, you're selling out that God is operating at a different plane and the church therefore operates at a different plane and you're just kind of soiling yourself with the way of the world if you act like the world in any possible way.
Speaker 1:Those are two respective camps you could say the pro-first article reality camp and they're not anti-first article reality. They just are much more sensitive to the ways of the world and this is very practical for us because we teach a lot about the culture, systems and structures. It's all first article reality. How do things work in the world? This is what the Unite Leadership Collective is about and how do pastors raise up leaders that understand the systems and structures that are helpful, that can be helpful potentially toward advancing the cause of Christ. So anything more to say about the evolution and how we with listening ears kind of find the middle way, and maybe there's something to be said about the Jesus-centered approach toward marketing and your story kind of helping to shape up that conversation, dr Okamoto.
Speaker 2:Well, I'll go back. You brought up about the first article and I see a lot that we should. We tend to oh boy, yes, I'll come out and say it. We tend to neglect the first article that God made us. But he gave us all sorts of things and why For us for which we should be grateful. We should not be so suspicious. We should recognize that other people live this way as well. Of course, we shouldn't deny the reality of sin and evil, but that doesn't mean that everything that other human creatures share with us is sin and evil. Let's not make that mistake. It's interesting because the Lutheran tradition had a distinguished. You know, sin is not human nature, but sometimes our reaction is it's human nature? No, and if we are creatures and we are then we should expect people who will, of course, depend on something and somebody else.
Speaker 2:We all live by faith, we all live by hope, and now it could be misguided, and if it's not to the God of Jesus Christ, it is misguided, and that has real consequences. But the idea that people will. People are looking for something to believe, people are always looking to have hope. It's just what it goes to being a preacher, and appreciating that and appreciating how this has been worked out by other people. How do we find an object of faith, how do we find something to hope in? We can learn from that?
Speaker 2:It's a first article sort of thing, and that goes back to the marketing. It's like that's a first article insight, but apart from that, it's also, though, that we can, with our own first article insights, also have maybe something to say for other people, because we are called to love our neighbors as ourselves. Let's help our neighbors. We were talking about that last time about politics. How should we vote? We should vote for the benefit of our neighbor, things like that, too, recognizing we're all human creatures, we're all made by God for each other as well, as to believe in him and take advantage of that, and there are all sorts of opportunities then, once you have that outlook.
Speaker 1:You have to try some things Anyway.
Speaker 3:So let me give a practical example I think of, maybe, what Tim's thinking about. So there's a lot of people in our community Gilbert, very wealthy, upper class, white collar town and they may feel like they've got everything figured out and they may not be interested in an invitation to church on Sunday, but they might be very, very interested in helping to mend a broken marriage that they're going through, because we know this is a big thing and they may trust the church to teach them something important about how to do that. So we may have a marriage ministry, which we do here. We have a very active marriage ministry here and, a big surprise, when I look at our website, a lot of people are very interested in the marriage ministry that we do.
Speaker 3:So there's a lot of people that are not interested in an invitation to Sunday, but they are interested in an invitation how to restore their marriage, right? So now you walk with a couple and you help them with some godly wisdom because they're trusting the church to tell them something about this. At the end of many weeks of helping this couple, now your invitation to church has a different meaning to them, right? Right, let's call it a relational equity with these people that you didn't have before, because you helped them with a very first article need to have a good marriage, right, but that is now inviting them into church, right. Because of this very and I'd say this isn't a bait and switch you actually care about this.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 3:You actually do this because you care about this, but also because of the authenticity of the help that you're giving. Now, your invitation to church means something different to these people, and they're willing to hear the words being preached differently than they did before. Does that make sense? It does.
Speaker 2:I would add that, and let's just say they're not receptive. That's okay, that's okay too, yes. Yeah, we should help people in their needs.
Speaker 3:Right, whether they say yes or not, or whatever. Whether they say yes, help them anyway. Yeah, that's right. So that's the authenticity of it. Would you do it even if they said no, yes, yes.
Speaker 2:You have to ask that Right, are we meeting a need of our fellow creatures? And if we are, fine, it is an opportunity, of course, to testify to the God who made us. But if it's not received, then all right, it's okay, yeah.
Speaker 1:What are you? Let's go into your seminary life right now. What's giving you hope? As you look at the students there, how are they coming in? What's the posture of the students as they're sent out? I guess I'm trying to connect it to this conversation. How are they viewing the world differently from when they came in to when they're they're sent out, dr okamoto?
Speaker 2:uh, no, that's a good question. They, you, you you've used the word story and I have have too about Christians live according to a certain story and we do want them to appreciate what it really is and what it entails Christ crucified, faith in the gospel, these things. That can be a struggle for some students, but it's okay, we let them struggle. But it is to see that we're not trying to just defend what we've always done, but rather bring forward something or the whole thing of what god is up to with his creation and especially for human creatures, what he's up to in the church and, uh, so, appreciation, what it is to preach the gospel. Uh, I think that we try to show that these things. You know, you brought up a practical note. It will look like this A question I like to ask is what does the church look like that believes X, y or Z, x, y or Z?
Speaker 2:Often, when they first try it out, the answer is something about well, we will teach this, which is fine, but it's no. What does the church look like that believes in justification by faith? What are we going to emphasize? And it's not? Uh, it's not. We're only teaching, or principally teaching, the doctrine, but rather, we are presenting god, we are talking about ourselves, our lives, in ways in which get people to to recognize these things, and that's pretty abstract. So here's an example baptism. What does baptism has been significant for the church, of course, since jesus instituted it, but uh, we're kind of so used to doing it. What? What happens in baptism? What does baptism accomplish, and why is it actually good? So baptism is when you're adopted. Baptism is like being married.
Speaker 2:Luther spoke about the joyous or the wonderful exchange that happens in baptism your sin, your shame, your weakness he takes them. It's like I'll identify with you and you can identify with me and his holiness. That's how baptism should be taught. That should lead people to be baptized, or to remember their baptism and be thankful. It isn't simply my market profession. I'm a Christian. I'm going to show it by doing this, and it's not simply where some kind of a spiritual or supernatural gift is given you not denying the gift of the Holy Spirit and those things, but it is God actually, you know, in Christ, saying you're mine, everything I have is yours. What about all that other stuff? I'll take care of it. And then treating people as if that has actually happened in baptism? I don't know. Well, anyway, I do know.
Speaker 3:It's a radical transformation in identity is what it is.
Speaker 2:It is, it is and.
Speaker 3:I think that's where we get hung up. Is we tend to well, let's say we, I would call America right. We tend to think of religion in terms of ethical terms rather than identity terms, correct.
Speaker 2:This is who you are Right. So again, talking about Bob Cole, he speaks about our relationship with God, that righteousness of identity.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Not righteousness of performance, there are both. So he would stress there are two kinds of identity. Yes, not righteousness of performance, there are both. So he would stress there are two kinds of righteousness, but we tend to ignore the identity part.
Speaker 3:And I think this is the piece of translation. I'm going to use the word translation right now. Luther was entering into a battle about, you know, it's justification by faith, not justification by works. And the word that they didn't use was identity, because they weren't having identity politics back then. Now is a day, an age of identity politics. Right, this is a. It's how. Who am I? What group do I belong to? What is the lens by which I view my identity? And Lutheranism actually speaks into it tremendously. We just don't use that word all the time in our confessional documents, but when you really look at the implication of the theology, that's what it is. It's ultimately about giving you this identity, right, correct?
Speaker 2:And this goes back to the earlier conversation we had about confessionalism you confess your identity when. God has bestowed on you, yep.
Speaker 3:Yes, the confessions are identity-forming, that's right.
Speaker 2:And you're right. There's a certain sense in which I don't use this too much, but identity politics is the right word for this. Yes, yeah.
Speaker 1:And I'll be blunt, I think we have it in the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod Any group of people that would orient themselves because of sin and selfishness and kind of identifying with one group and therefore not identifying with another group. I just think it's very unfortunate. You know, the human mind always asks two questions Actually, this is neuroscience. Now is, who am I? And then who am I with and how do the people I'm with behave?
Speaker 1:Right, and so let's put this in a Christian worldview. Who am I? I'm a child of God, right, and so let's put this in a Christian worldview. Who am I? I'm a child of God. And then how do the people that I'm around behave? Because we have the spirit of the risen Jesus. The fruit of the spirit is what forms us, the love and the joy and the peace.
Speaker 1:And out of that is kind of this openness, this, this curiosity, this abundance, this putting the best construction on all things, this being thought well of by outsiders and being very, very slow to judgment. Why? Because I've been judged as righteous because of the cross of Jesus Christ, and my righteousness is not found in what I do, what I will do, but who I am right now in Jesus. And so I would just pray that that would have just an open-minded, abundance mindset for brothers and sisters.
Speaker 1:But brothers in the pastorate within the Lutheran Church, missouri Synod, just caring for one another, listening to one another, being respectful of one another's traditions in our local context and recognizing the diversity of context with which we find ourselves. And when we sniff power, when we sniff within ourselves the desire to orient ourselves as more righteous than another brother or sister because of the people I associate with. Just calling it what it is, just calling it what it is, it's sin, right. And if we can't challenge ourselves from within, oh my goodness, how could we possibly, with love and care and curiosity, challenge the false idols that are present in our world and look for those olive branches, those Holy Spirit-inspired connection points that will take place because people need the gospel and we are evangelical Lutherans, and so we must kind of orient ourselves in that way. So I'm kind of digressing just a smidge, but I'd love to get your take on. How can this be a uniting principle for one another within the Lutheran Church, missouri Synod Identity leading to then behavior. Quorum Deo leading to Quorum Hominibus us.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, this is I'll go back to something I said earlier it is identifying with Christ crucified, amen. And that means being able to you know, not just being able, being willing to follow that way To identify with him and with God, made known through him, rather than ways which are natural to us in the world, to us in the world, and so that's a willingness to actually then you know, in terms of what's our message. Our message is about the God who is redeeming all things through and in the way of Jesus, which means switching away from what am I, how good am I? And rather it's faith. In depending on it, we're moving away from morality to faith, might say, which is a radical shift, because so much of the world goes by. How good am I? Because so much of the world goes by? How good am I, how well am I doing?
Speaker 2:And it's just like it's not about that at all when it comes to, well, what about my? What am I? I forgive you. What about my going to die? I'll raise you. Now it answers that, but it's just so radically different than so much that goes on kind of in the way of the world, the quorum hominibus, as you put it Right, there is a place for that. We're not denying that, but we need to acknowledge, first of all, that we are creatures, creatures that God has swept up into his arms, calling us his children, inviting us to call him our father, through Jesus Christ and in the love and security of God, then carrying out our responsibilities as creatures in the world. Being a witness and it comes down to first of all, then, about our own lives should be a witness, and this goes back to what Jack was talking about marriage ministry.
Speaker 2:We should do it because it's right in the way we live. But what makes it right? Well, of course, it's the acknowledgement that the God and Father, jesus Christ, is the creator and desires to be your heavenly father.
Speaker 3:Marriage is good. It's been given to us by God. It's part of our vocation. Let's enter into it with peace and love and knowing that changing dirty diapers is a good and holy thing. Right, Right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yes, you had to go there.
Speaker 1:Hey, dr Okamoto, we're at time. This has been delightful. Thank you for your generosity of time. If people wanted to find because I know you wrote it some time ago if people wanted to find the 95 theses that you wrote in recognition of the 500th anniversary of Martin Luther's distribution of the 95 theses, where could they find that?
Speaker 2:document. I don't, I don't know. I mean in other words I didn't publish them.
Speaker 1:Email me, I mean.
Speaker 2:I have a copy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Email you. There we go. Contact me at.
Speaker 2:Concordia Seminary. I'd be happy to distribute. They were meant for that. I won't even go into the well, nevermind, I'm not going to call that.
Speaker 1:There's a story. I love it, I'm sure. I'm sure there is, but thank you for being a willing.
Speaker 3:Distributing it behind your back. Go ahead, go ahead, no go ahead.
Speaker 2:They are for discussion. Yeah, I'm not. Yeah, they are for discussion, I mean I stand by what I said, but I'm willing to be correct in the conversation. Yeah, yeah, good, absolutely. Well, this is a it would be.
Speaker 1:It would be tough, I know. So this is a lead time. Sharon is caring, like subscribe, comment and we pray. This conversation just draws you up by the spirit's power, up into Jesus. Who is your leader, Lord, and we can talk about hard things in the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. We can disagree, agreeably, we can have. We got two ears and if anybody's listened to this or anything else we've said and wants to get on, who has?
Speaker 1:I've received a couple emails lately from people who say I respect what you're trying to do, I don't agree with everything you say and I'd love to come on and talk and we'd love to fasttrack you into a conversation with us about how the church can be faithful and mission-oriented, confessing Christ as Lord, but with an evangelical heart. That's all we're trying to do, and for us to reach beyond the church, we have to talk well within the church, talk well about one another and to one another. That's the intent of this podcast. It's a good day. Go and make it a great day. We'll be back soon with another episode of Lead Time. Thanks so much, Jack. Thanks so much, Dr Okamoto.
Speaker 2:God bless, blessings to you.