Lead Time
Lead Time
Exploring Lutheran Mission Theology with Dr. Detlev Schulz: Bridging Mission and Confession
Discover the transformative power of Lutheran theology and mission work as we welcome the esteemed Dr. Detlev Schulz to our podcast. As a leading professor and missiologist at Concordia Theological Seminary, Dr. Schulz unpacks the profound insights from his influential book, "Mission from the Cross." Explore the concept of Missio Dei, where God is the initiator of mission, and the church's sacred duty to align with His divine purpose of salvation. Uncover how pastors, as spiritual caregivers and evangelism equippers, can expand their influence beyond their congregations and into the wider mission field.
Join us in a thoughtful examination of the balanced mission of the church, where the Lutheran approach to missiology stands apart by emphasizing God's delivery system through the Word and Sacraments. The discussion takes a deep dive into the importance of the priesthood of all believers and the significance of ordination in preserving the Gospel's purity. With insightful reflections, Dr. Schulz addresses the unique challenges and opportunities faced by pastors, particularly within the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, in a world often marked by narratives of decline. The parable of the fourfold seed serves as a poignant reminder of the importance of sowing the Word of God despite uncertain outcomes.
As we wrap up, we navigate the perceived tension between missional and confessional aspects within Christian circles. Dr. Schulz offers a compelling vision for bridging this divide. Hear how confession and mission work hand in hand to maintain the integrity of faith, enabling believers to articulate and defend their beliefs effectively. With Dr. Schulz's guidance, we explore strategies to expand the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod's mission vision, encouraging a positive attitude and strategic planning for a broader gospel impact. Engage with these groundbreaking ideas and be inspired to explore mission theology further with "Mission from the Cross.
Do you have a dream to reach people with the gospel, but feel stuck? There is hope for you.
Join us on an incredible learning journey to discover, develop, and deploy your calling to bless the world around you with the love of Jesus!
All NEW ULC Missions Class
For a 10% off discount - use code LEADTIME10
Join the Lead Time Newsletter! (Weekly Updates and Upcoming Episodes)
https://www.uniteleadership.org/lead-time-podcast#newsletter
Visit uniteleadership.org
Welcome to Lead Time, tim Allman here with from the Cross. And then I was talking to some friends. They're like hey, klaus Detlef Schultz is a professor at Concordia Theological Seminary in Fort Wayne for a number of years, since 1998. Dr Schultz has been serving the church and the world there at Concordia Theological Seminary. He is also a missiologist. He has taught systematic theology. He's the dean of the graduate school there.
Speaker 1:We were just talking, before we hit play, about his connections to the church in Ethiopia. His roots, as you're going to hear, go back to Germany as well as to the German Lutheran expression there in South Africa, which is where he was raised. And about over 20 some years ago this book published by CPH, mission from the Cross, a Lutheran theology of mission, was written and it is a magnum opus for us talking about missiology. And I really believe this book could be served if we dust it off today I know it's been a number of years could serve as a uniting piece, a uniting work for us today in the Lutheran Church, missouri Synod. Praise be to God. So, dr Schultz, how are you doing today, brother?
Speaker 2:Good. Thank you very much for having me on your show.
Speaker 1:It's a privilege.
Speaker 2:I look forward to this discussion.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Likewise. So give us the origin story. What led you to write the book Mission from the Cross? Well, you know, we at the seminary have a number of international students from other denominations and also from within the United States, so I felt it necessary to provide them with an insight into Lutheran theology, and particular, also clothed, you know, and embedded in missiology, so that the terms that we use generally as Lutherans, you know, are not always understood and presupposed, you know, in our classroom. So, basically, mission from the Cross was intended to serve as an introduction into Lutheran theology with a missiological bent, if that's kind of what I would say as the purpose, and so it's been translated now in South Korea. In South Korea, I actually was there in Seoul a month ago and we celebrated its publication, its translation. It's also been now published in Portuguese and in Spanish, so the students that benefit from it are both within the Lutheran circle, within the LCMS, but also outside of it.
Speaker 1:Amen. Well, thank you. Sometimes, as we talk about the mission of God for me the narrative of Scripture, god's mission to get all of his kids back, and then the means through which he does that word and sacrament Sometimes in Lutheran circles we can kind of skip right over the ends, which is God's intent to create faith in every human being. And how does he do that? Through the proclamation of the gospel, christ crucified and risen from the dead. That creates faith by the Spirit's power. Sometimes, though, we can skip over the ends and jump straight to the means, and so how, at the seminary, in your work, are you talking about kind of the Missio Dei as the churches and preachers, pastors, driving? Why we talk big, why a lot on this podcast? But how is the Missio Dei from a Lutheran perspective, the church's big? Why, dr Schultz?
Speaker 2:Well, you know, the church itself had always been thought of as the subject, the starter of mission, you know. But with the concept of the mission of God, we introduce a new thought which is mission, you know. But with the concept of the mission of God, we introduce a new thought which is logical. You know, obviously, that God himself is a subject. God wants mission. It's not just whether the church pursues it or not, it's far deeper than that, and so it's embedded in God's purpose for this world. It's an activity that explains, you know, why we as Christians, as a church, are involved in it. We are there to serve the purpose that God himself has to save the world. So I mean the text that we always gloss over so easily, like John 3, 16, you know, for God so loved the world. And then John Galatians 4, you know that he sent his son, born of a virgin, you know, and continues to send the Holy Spirit.
Speaker 2:We are therefore, as a church, within God's mission itself, and the purpose that God has for the world becomes our purpose as well. And so the starting point is crucial. We are accountable to God. We always need to ask what does he want? Scripture is very clear on that, and so the church must align itself to God's mission and not run off on its own with its own ideas and visions, and needs to always corroborate those with the scriptural evidence. That's kind of the purpose also of pastors. Pastors are often short-circuiting the whole mission of God by feeling that they are solely occupants of a small little group of members and forget that that church that they're serving is an instrument also towards the world. So there's more to it than just or just to understand yourself as a pastor preaching at the pulpit and administering the sacraments, but rather these are all pulling us out into the world.
Speaker 3:Would, you say that's the primary misunderstanding of mission. How would you say that mission gets misunderstood most often? Is that the main way?
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, I think the misunderstanding might come to the fact that the church itself kind of doesn't want itself to be embedded, you know, in the mission of God. It fails to see the broader perspective, you know, of the mission of God and the purpose itself, you know. So it's kind of like a conduit, an instrument towards the world, and every pastor, while not directly involved, will see and will have to look at his church as being the instrument towards that, in what God himself has designed in his sending of the Holy, of the Son and the Holy Spirit. So we are all to see ourselves in an outward motion towards the world in our particular locality.
Speaker 2:I love that.
Speaker 3:Some pastors just add a little bit. So some pastors believe their primary job description is spiritual caregiving for people, but there is also another component which is equipping people for evangelism. Would you say that's correct, that the church is not just a spiritual caregiving institution, it is an equipping institution, equipping the saints to share in the work of mission?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, you see, the thing is that the church and the pastors, you know, are responsible, by being called to a church, to their members and accountable to them, but it's also an accountability to God himself, you know.
Speaker 2:And that being called by God to serve at that particular locality raises the question then, how does this what the Lord wants from the church, mainly being that the world be saved? You know, we have the text and the scripture, you the scripture, at the end of each gospel, which we call the Great Commission Text. Those are by the Missouri Synod affirmed to be given to the church. So how do we translate this Translation of those very activities that the Lord wants baptize, make disciples, that the Lord wants baptize, make disciples? Now, we can do that by having our members be seen as those that facilitate this activity that the Lord wants us to do. They witness, they bring in newcomers, the pastor baptizes and makes them disciples for life, hopefully, disciples for life, hopefully. So translating that activity does and has to happen at the local level of every pastor and his congregation, amen.
Speaker 1:So let's talk about because, jack, I just had an epiphany You're the one that turned me on to the book, that's right. I don't know if you remember that, but yeah, it was you. I don't know. I interact with a lot of people and sometimes the dude right in front of my face is the one that gives me the best advice to read this book, because I quote a number of different missiologists that are out there Hauer, walsh, bosch, et cetera and I know you've quoted some of the same folks that I read and cited in my doctorate. But how is Lutheran missiology different from the way others in the wider evangelical church may speak about missiology? What?
Speaker 2:are some of the distinctives in terms of a Lutheran confessional missiology, dr Schultz? Well, it comes down to the means. We could call it God's delivery system. That's what he uses. And if you talk to a missiologist from another denomination and I don't need to raise names here but if you generally read their literature and their books, what is really coming short is the actual means that are being used by God to save his people. You know, go ye and baptize.
Speaker 2:You know there are some huge works being written on all the New Testament and from a missiological perspective, you know the term missional as it is being used a lot. You ask, you know, well, how are these texts that talk to the preaching of the gospel? You know faith comes through hearing right, you know, in Romans 10. And also you know that unless he believes and is baptized, so where is that very particular delivery system of the Lord to save the mankind? Where is that being reflected on in the missiology? The missiology, so what we have as lutherans is that god calls through his word, he brings you know it's to people through a particular way, in a particular way, and uses the holy spirit to do that. So that kind of perspective I would say and I talk about my book as it as being a charismatics charismatic comes from kerygma, you know, the gospel kerygs proclaiming and the sacramental act.
Speaker 2:Those two elements, I think, are crucial to be integrated into a missiology that I think is particularly Lutheran. And because they are effective, that means they also deliver something and not just affirm something. That's already happened before. But they do deliver and in that regard justification comes in. God justifies the sinner, but he justifies it by being heard the word of God and then the forgiveness received through faith being delivered to him through the word itself. That's kind of where I would go to point out a particular Lutheran element.
Speaker 2:We would have to say also, to some degree, the structure of Lutheran mission is also around the priesthood of all believers. As you have mentioned already. We have believers and we have those that are baptized. We also have those who are responsible that this delivery system occurs, those that are ordained and placed in the church. You find few missiologists talking about ordination and clergy, so you also have to integrate them into your missiology and talk about their role. And so we have the priesthood of all believers and we have, at the same time, also those that are responsible for delivering to their members and to the world the baptism and the proclamation and so all play a very important role in a well-structured ecclesiology. That is, an understanding of how the church works in God's mission.
Speaker 3:What do you think it means to be evangelical?
Speaker 2:Well, it's evangelical.
Speaker 3:yeah, I think we don't necessarily think about the evangelical identity of being Lutheran, but Lutheranism is deeply evangelical. So talk about it from your perspective.
Speaker 2:Well, the evangelical side is coming back to the word euangelion, the good news. So the whole focus is on making and ensuring that nothing gets in the way of the good news reaching the world, you know. So we have to, and this is basically also highlighting that we are in possession of a gospel and that gospel needs to be very clearly stated what it is.
Speaker 2:And in our context, you know, we talk about the giftedness of God's salvation.
Speaker 2:It's coming to us as something that he has done and accomplished on the cross, and so what he has done already for us is handed over to us as a church, and we are preaching reconciliation.
Speaker 2:That has occurred through the cross so many years ago and that kind of gospel may not be changed or adjusted or forgotten. So our task calling ourselves evangelical, means we have a particular interest of preserving the purity of God's word and ensuring that that then also is not hogged or blocked or contained somewhere away from the world, but it is then also delivered. So it also embraces a very strong missiological thrust, if you will, Because if you look at the Greek in the New Testament no-transcript that's where the preaching occurs and that's where also the keruzain and the marturain words come up as well in conjunction or connection with Iangelion. It means that the audience itself in Scripture is always an unbelieving audience receiving the Iangelion, the gospel, believing audience receiving the Evangelion, the gospel. So preserving the gospel in its purity, making sure it never is changed, but at the same time also seeing the people for whom it's intended.
Speaker 1:This is good, there's so much here. Maybe I'll play, I'll lean into something that, as Jack says, is a little spicy. I think we've become imbalanced and maybe navel-gazing and protective. With the gospel there's definitely a protective element to protect the purity of our confession of Christ crucified, that nothing would get in the way of that. And yet still within the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod today, there's kind of an ongoing I don't know if debate's the right word perspective, maybe in different contexts, about the role of the priesthood and the role of the office of holy ministry.
Speaker 1:And you're very clear in your book that we exist, pastors exist, yes, to proclaim word and sacrament, to be sure, but you have the church enlists the service of laity for mission this is Ephesians 4, verse 12 on page 234, in your mission as ethics. And there you have this really nice kind of paradigm for the life of the church Ecclesia, you call it the fluorescence of the community. And the church has to practice four different roles all at the same time. And I'd love to get your take If any of these roles kind of become imbalanced or prioritized at the expense of the other, the church isn't living in the full manifestation of all of her respective roles. So the four roles are human care, diakonia, witness, martyria, fellowship, koinonia and worship, the liturgy liturgia there as well. So speak a little bit about the congregation fulfilling a balanced and biblical role in this world and, figuratively speaking, as a flower whose sweet this is your quote as a flower whose sweet and inviting smell penetrates the world. Speak to that balancing posture of the church today, dr Schultz.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean the church itself, you know, exists at a very particular location and you have to ask yourself in what way is that going to impact the community around it? We always believe, I think, especially these days.
Speaker 2:you know, talk about community churches and this idea here of a fluorescence, you know, with the four activities of martyria, koinonia, laetogia, you know, and diakonia means that these are reflected on as classical identities of the church, classical activities, religious activities where I say you know that if you miss one of them, if you miss the martyria, you miss the proclamation of the word to the world, and if you lay to gear, that means if you miss liturgy, you are not going to be a worshiping church, integrating people into your midst. So this is where I tell the students about this. This is kind of how the church has been looked upon throughout the centuries, as these life forms that are all to be in place and not missing or lacking one of them. You know it's like a dove flipping around with one wing, you know cannot fly, but if all four are there, then obviously we are in good shape, you know.
Speaker 2:So I do think, rather than having a health barometer of various kinds, you know that come in these days, these classical forms are, or expressions of the church, are there to say if you do and implement these in your, in your life as a church, as as a community, locally at a certain place, then I think we are well established to cover all those areas that the church has been asked to do on behalf of the Lord, to maintain its members to celebrate fellowship with one another, koinonia, to have also mercy works and look at those people in need, not within its own circles only, but also to others out there, and also then to have the maturia, the witness, so body and soul are being taken care of there. That's kind of my thinking here, and calling it the fluorescence then means it's the flower it will blossom. Now there's a Maasai proverb saying where there is sugar, the ants will come, and I feel like also that where these four activities are, that's where the mission of God will happen in its fullest sense.
Speaker 3:What would be your assessment of which one of those activities gets neglected?
Speaker 2:Well, these days you could almost start with the koinonia aspect. Where are the fellowship issues being addressed? You know, church-going folk usually come from nine to ten or whatever the time is, and then they also disappear again. So the koinonia itself, I believe, is quite an important one. Where are relations occurring in that church outside of the worship service, before, after, during the week? I do believe that that's a huge element in how to keep your members in the church. You have a fellowship going on, a koinonia that celebrates each other's faith in the same Lord, jesus Christ. But they do so above and beyond the worship koinonia meaning in the liturgy itself, which obviously is the pivot and key to the life of the church there, because it receives all that what is needed for faith and good works. But is the church also willing to indulge and practice time with each other and share one's other's concerns, frailties and illnesses, and strengths and joys? I think that's where I would already point as being a problem.
Speaker 2:The koinonia issue, also in the context of broader community, is also a question.
Speaker 2:You know, how can we integrate in a way, become a light, a beacon to the world out there and how can some koinonia be practiced with that neighboring community there should also be thought through at some events or something that brings the church out to the people that are not regularly going to its worship service. Obviously you could say, diakonia can suffer as well if the church is not seeing it as an important corporate activity. You know you can say to your members go out and do good to the neighbor. You know you can say to your members go out and do good to the neighbor. But you should also ask can we as a church, officially, you know as a congregation, also engage it as a corporate entity so we actually do something about it together and engage that activity to the outside world, helping and serving those in need, and that applies also to martyria. You can say to your members go and witness. But you need to ensure that this also occurs as your church, as your congregation, in an intentional, deliberate, corporate way.
Speaker 3:And this is biblical. We see in Acts, chapter 6, right deacons being established to care for the needs of the widows and orphans, and like a lot of thought went into that in selecting people who could do that really, really well. And what it showed is when they did that well, when they leaned into that process really well, it resulted in the church growing Like many disciples were added right?
Speaker 2:Yes, absolutely, and you are reflecting there. Basically, the church in its life in the early stages, you know, blossoming and growing, of course you know events occurred that were detrimental, you know, but also facilitated in the end the mission of the church, you know, but also facilitated then the end of the mission of the church, you know, through the persecution and leading it to go beyond Jerusalem to Antioch and so forth. So what you have basically, as you rightly point out, the starting point of the church was that they had a koinonia, they had celebrated a liturgy already very early on in Acts 2.42, the breaking of bread, the sharing of the apostle's word and also the singing of hymns. So you had all that in place there. That's why it's not so far off to talk about these four activities as being crucial to the existence of a congregation or a church.
Speaker 1:What words of wisdom do you give to? You know you get the privilege of hanging out with a lot of younger pastors and maybe second career pastors residential there, who are heading out into a world and they may even hear in the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. You know a narrative of decline. You know it's hard. It's really really hard. What missiology does and kind of elevating us, it really is this repentance, this metanoia, this setting our mind above where Christ is, and then he's mobilizing us for mission and for those who have maybe a scarcity, maybe protective, fearful mindset?
Speaker 2:what words of wisdom in your classroom do you give to those guys as they move evangelically out into the parish? Well, you know, you know the parable of the fourfold seed. You know what. Some fall on the barren ground, some on rocky soil, some amongst the thorns, and some fall into more fertile soil. Well, that parable already reminds us that it's not going to be easy. You know the task. However, that we get from.
Speaker 2:That parable is saying you know that God wants us to share the word, to sow the seed. In other words, first of all, what we need to affirm is that God does desire human agency. He does want us to do something. You know we have clearly, in the Augsburg Confession, for example, article 5, in order that this faith may be received or given, god instituted the preaching and the teaching, and so what that means is that we always have to ask ourselves what are we doing? Are we actually engaging in the work that the Lord has put before us? And I think that's what we should be focusing on itself. You know, whether it falls on that soil or this soil, I cannot determine that and control it, but what we can do as a church, I would say is proclaim the gospel, ensure that the proclamation is occurring, because that is where things happen and that's where the Lord will sow his seed. That's where the Lord will sow his seed. And so the ultimate activity the church is to be encouraged in doing, and all pastors and all students should focus on how they preach the word of God and how that is being shared with others, and that would be the activity I would encourage.
Speaker 2:The downside of the life of a church that is fluctuating from growth to decline, and all these things certainly are in God's hands. But we should also be saying what is God requiring of us so that he can do and work through that what he wants us to do, do and work through that what he wants us to do. You know, we cannot, for example, expect the lord to uh to reward us with a, a lottery win, unless we buy a lottery ticket. So we we need to ensure that we have the preaching going on so that we can say to ourselves we are doing on our side what the Lord desires us to do and then the rest we hand over to him. Faith comes from hearing.
Speaker 3:Yeah, hearing by the word of God and the Holy Spirit after to help you believe what was been preached Right.
Speaker 2:Right. Faith comes through hearing. Isn't that a very basic principle? So where and what are we doing that people may hear it? That's the key.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes. And on Sundays and Monday through Saturday, mobilized pastors, in partnership with the priesthood, mobilized to proclaim out in our various. Maybe this is a good turning point toward vocation and our various vocations and proclamation that occurs in those respective vocations. Is that a helpful kind of partnership doctrine for us today between the Priesthood of All Believers and the Office of Holy Ministry, Dr Schultz?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I do think that the vocation idea gives it more concreteness. You know, if you will, it kind of puts yourself in the very station where you're located as a human being, and all our members are obviously working on a daily basis, you know, at a certain location. So how does their Christian, their understanding as being a certain location, so how does their Christian understand as being a Christian, as being committed to following the Lord, as to doing what he wants to do from us, you know, desires us to be conduits to the world out there? That all comes down to understanding the vocation. And you know, the Apostle Paul in Ephesians 4 says look at your station where you find yourself and see yourself doing something good there as well.
Speaker 2:It's actually interesting, you know, when you ask a non-Lutheran about his calling, sometimes you would expect, you know, an answer that we would have like I am called to serve as a teacher, I'm called to serve as a, you know, a farmer or a lawyer, and see myself in that position as being a Christian, whereas many others don't talk the vocation idea so much.
Speaker 2:They talk about calling. That means I need to do something more and, above and beyond, special, you know, decision making, for the Lord wants us to uphold it and we keep the world in its place, the order idea Pursue. There is something wonderfully done by our service and through our service, and the Lord himself provides his blessings so that we can become a neighbor, a Christ to the neighbor and let him understand who we are and they will draw their conclusions 1 Peter 2.12, that they may see your good works, right Good works, and I include in that also the witness. They see your good works and they declare the praises to the Lord. So it's a huge task in front of us to uphold our vocation in a missiological context.
Speaker 3:So back to the priesthood of all believers. Right, you take that priesthood with you wherever you go, including whatever civil vocation that you have, right? School teacher, as you said, lawyer, banker, accountant, business owner that just because you enter into that you don't lose that, you don't take off the hat of priesthood. Right, you take that with you. And so, as you're like, this is the commission as you are going, as you're living your day-to-day life, as you're doing the things that you've been called to do to serve your neighbor, that is also there, right.
Speaker 3:And then, as the priest, you have the ability to pray for your neighbor, to care for them, to share the gospel whenever you have permission to share the gospel with them because of the relationship that you have. When we think about it that way, when you think the church that way, the scope of the church and its ability to do mission becomes radically transformed and magnified. There is a limit to how many people a pastor can talk to on Sunday based on their willingness to come hear them on Sunday, but when you think of the church as every single priest being able to go out and have that influence on the people around them, now you have this absolute. You know, it's that image of you know, the tree that's growing up from the tiny seed. Every single person gets to be a part of that branch and to share the gospel with their neighbors.
Speaker 2:Oh yes, absolutely, you know, you can. The statistics, you know, vary here on this, but you could say that the predominant contact to the world outside occurs through the members, the priests of all believers. They are the ones who are sharing, through their vocation, christ with other people out there. The pastor himself is mostly locked in and serving as a sheep and probably will not have much encounter with people outside of his church, or not that much. And so you need to ask yourself then, strategically, what can I do here? Well, you know, in our church and in general, a Christian is rather afraid when it comes to encountering the world out there, isn't it? And it seems to me that the fear element kind of blocks a lot of our mission, and we need to talk about the world not always as being the enemy as such, trying to envelop us and kill us, all you know, but rather as a world that the Lord loves and wants us to be there, and to enable our members to understand that this is not something where we need to escape from in the sense of sharing Christ, but rather that this world needs us because of the love of Christ, and in this way, then, we kind of become, hopefully overcome our fear.
Speaker 2:Additionally, I would say, you know, pastors need to think it through a little bit on a more simpler level. Tell your members, hey, invite, just invite. You know, mission is a process. It's not just a single event out there. It includes assimilation, you know.
Speaker 2:So you have to ask yourself, hey, what role can I as a pastor and what role do we play as a church in the sense of being hospitable and welcoming? You cannot encourage members to do something out there unless you have your own church clear on what it needs to do when there are supposed to come newcomers entering your fold. So it's a long, broader process in terms of explaining mission, rather than always saying go out there and do something and not seeing how it connects to the life of the congregation itself. And personally, I would say, if you are afraid of witnessing, why don't you just invite somebody? And then, of course, then of course, the question comes in well, do they want to come to our church? Would they love to do be in our midst? It depends. It depends, of course, how the pastor preaches. You know, how the members welcome the individual, how the elders are treating them.
Speaker 2:That all needs to be included in a broad missiological discussion. You know we cannot just isolate one event from the other.
Speaker 3:Hospitality, hospitality, yes, so a church that nails hospitality, and amen to what you just said. We do this in our own new member class. When we talk about mission and evangelism, the easiest thing you can do is just invite your friends to church.
Speaker 2:That's the easiest thing you can do is just invite your friends to church. That's the easiest thing you can do. Go ahead, it is the easiest.
Speaker 2:One element that comes in also that was very crucial for the Apostle Paul and for also Peter, you know, in Acts 10 and the Apostles' Council in Acts 15, is the idea that God is impartial, impartiality Meaning God makes no judgment. He doesn't look at somebody and says you don't fit here, and to another person you do. The Greek word for impartiality says he does not take the face into account, he does not look at somebody and judges them on the basis of what he looks like. So our members need to also and I think that's something that kind of has risen up more than I think over the last decade or so is the whole idea of immigration, the whole idea of people coming into this country, and the idea of impartiality should also be part of the discussion, as how do we look upon people, lovingly, receiving them and also being the child of God, as we are, but more in need of the forgiveness that we are fortunately receiving?
Speaker 1:Amen, amen. I love this, dr Schultz, it's easy. We were just on with Dr Okamoto talking about setting up conversations around topics that we may disagree on or may have a nuanced that we may disagree on or may have a nuanced, contextualized, confessional expression. And today it's easy for us, right along with partisan politics, to do the exact same thing within the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. And it's just sin, which is in all of us, which is selfishness and finding your camp, etc. Well, two of the camps that have been kind of formed, unfortunately, and and this probably goes back to wounds connected to the battle over the bible we've been doing some historical work and and seminex and things like that. It's easy for us to pit missional versus confessional and, from your perspective, why has this?
Speaker 2:happened in some circles, and what should we do about it? Well, you're right. I mean, obviously, that confession is something that we associate with right proclamation, right teaching. You know, correct orthodox, you know, you could say, in the midst of unorthodox beliefs, you know. So the idea comes, you know, let's preserve it, let's keep it intact and let's, you know, make sure that nothing is taken away from it. So the idea then comes up. Well, once we share it with others, isn't there the danger of compromise? And that's kind of the general attitude that could emerge.
Speaker 2:However, you must realize that I'm teaching at an institution that's founded by a German pastor called Wilhelm Löhr, who started mission work up in northern Michigan, you know, in what's called now Frankenmuth. It used to be the Saginaw Valley. His idea was that confession needs to be heard. A confession is there not to be hogged, you know, protected by only a soul, few people, but we have it in order that people may hear it and understand it.
Speaker 2:His connection of confession and mission is to be taken seriously by every Lutheran Because it understands that what we believe is always accompanied by what we also say, and I think those two elements come together and what we say is always also connected to people out there. Confession has salutary effect. It is not just something that protects you from this or that doctrine that is falsely proclaimed and taught, but it is also one that seeks out the individual with a faith, that corrects an unbelief and provides them with something new and salutary. So I think we just need to unwrap this tension, you know, or bridge it and place it within a missiological framework.
Speaker 3:We can do both.
Speaker 2:We can teach, we can preserve what we have, but we have to always look out to those that are in need of it, that do not have it.
Speaker 3:So let's look at that practically. A believer enters into a conversation with a nonbeliever and says hey, what do you believe about baptism? And the believer says, well, I believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sin. Where did he get that from it's confession, right? So you're equipping people when you're using confession the right way. You're equipping people for mission, right.
Speaker 2:You're absolutely true, right? You're absolutely true, correct there on this idea that it is fundamental to our existence, even as a Christian, to have a confessing faith. You know it starts already with the idea who is Jesus Christ you know he asked his disciples who do you say I am?
Speaker 2:Just imagine if Peter would have said well, I think you're a Buddha or something. You know it would be a confessional disaster, wouldn't it, you know? So every Christian needs to realize that wherever we go, confession accompanies us. It's not like an alien element in mission, it is rather part of it, or actually fundamental to mission, because we do say who jesus is and we need to know with some clarity how to um, how to pronounce and how to speak our faith to those people who have these questions. You know there is an apologetical element here, of course, that people generally approach us and say well, what is, what is this and that? What do you Lutherans say about here or this? Then, of course, you know our confession comes to our aid. So in both an apologetic, defensive way, we can explain to others but also, in a positive way, promote some misunderstanding that people might have and come to a better understanding of their own faith.
Speaker 3:So always be prepared to make a defense for your faith is kind of what Paul says right, absolutely. The confessional statements help you do that. And when you can articulate it, when you can get under the layer of, well, why do you believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sin? Well, let's look at scripture, right, yeah, so right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's 1 Peter 2.9, you know you're a Christian to make a defense and the word is apologia. Now I know in English they call it apologia, you know. Apologia and today if you look in the dictionary, apologia is a common word, you know. It usually makes a statement about something you know, and that is something that we Christians have. We have an apology to make. That is basically saying what do you believe? Right, you know.
Speaker 1:I love it. I love it. Hey, we're coming down the homestretch here. Maybe a question or two to close for those that are kind of wanting to geek out, if you will, on missiology both in the wider church and then within the LCMS. Who would you recommend? Who have you learned from? Who kind of shaped your missiological understanding both outside of the Lutheran tradition and within? Could you give us some shout-outs to some of those authors that we should take note of?
Speaker 2:today, in the LCMS of today, in the in the lcms well um you know I, first of all, you know I.
Speaker 2:I would begin with luther and scripture, of course. Um, now, what we should know is that mission has not always been done as a deliberate act in the sense as we understand it in modernity, through a mission organization, a society. It's been a movement, you know. It's been growing without knowing that it's growing, you know, simply by by sharing its faith. So, uh, not all missological reflection, you know, has been done. But you know, inity, if we were to say where it began, we could say that Fortius is an important Dutch missiologist out of the 17th century, gespertus Fortius V-O-E-T-I-U-S, fortius V-O-E-T-I-U-S. And he already started to reflect on what we call the five W's of mission why, where, when, who and what you know.
Speaker 2:But to me, I think, starting by looking at Luther and seeing what spawned the actual movement called the Reformation and learn from that, you know, unfortunately literature has been negative on this, you know, thinking that Luther said here I stand, you know. So he could not say here we go, you know. So I think we need to have an apologetic interest in our defense of our heritage, and I can do that and would love to do that to anybody who comes in as being critical. So I think what we need to clear the way for that and then start looking now into where are other scholars out there? Well, you know, for our sake of speaking of mission from the triune God's perspective and him being the source and the subject of mission, leslie Newbegin has started that discussion in the 1990s. Michael Goheen, now out of Dallas, has picked up that thought a little and become a proponent of supporting the idea of a missionary church, that in its essence it's supposed to be understood missiologically. It's not just a marginal activity but the church is embedded in it. So he has done a lot of work. The Gospel and Culture Network, gocn, has a smaller booklet by Georg Wietzerdom, which has never really been taken into English world, which is called Justification as a Shaping Power of Mission, the Doctrine of Justification as the Shaping Power of Mission. I'm translating and hope to get that published. Get that published.
Speaker 2:So I would say that the exponential movement that so dominates missiology these days needs to be careful about not dreaming too much a church that doesn't exist in reality. We are fighting a world out there and we are declining or growing ups and downs to. You know, the five-level church by Ed Stetzer does have some interesting points to make, but to be a church on the level five, exponentially growing, I don't know whether we can ever dream that big. I personally would love to see a church on level three growing through addition. That would be great to me already, just so that every church and congregation, at least on that level, is moving away from plateauing or declining, you know.
Speaker 2:So let's follow many missiologists, names that I've mentioned here, but also do so with some, you know, some discernment as to see where we, as Lutheran about the Bible as the book of mission is, in its essence, a very helpful understanding and promotes a hermeneutic. That's very, very important. See the Bible as a mission book, okay. See it narrating how God helps us, from a Genesis to a Revelation, how, all throughout it, god's mission is clearly the golden thread. I agree with Christopher Wright on that. However, I need to go further and ask him where are you accountable to those texts that talk about baptism, that talk about the proclamation and the means, you know, and not just agency, the humans, proclamation and the means, and not just agency, the humans, but also about the means.
Speaker 2:I have a lot of authors on my watch list missiologists. I like reading journals. The journal Missiology is very helpful, and so you can read that and subscribe to some other journals and just follow through what the discussions lately are. What is important, I think that we do not get caught up in two things. One is pluralism that we forget that the Christian faith is and wants us to be conduits of God's mission to others. So in the dialogue with other religions, we easily put Christianity out there as an alternative. However, it is the alternative. So we do want to make sure that we keep the missiological how do you say it? You know, thrust alive in our church, you know, and the purpose of why we exist in this world.
Speaker 1:Amen, amen.
Speaker 1:Hey, last question this has been a very helpful conversation and I do believe a uniting, hopefully rally cry kind of conversation for the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod.
Speaker 1:What are the greatest gifts as a longtime member of the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod and what are our greatest kind of treasures and what do you pray we learn, especially pastors, leaders, for the sake of the next generation in the LCMS, I'd love for you to just kind of and I love that you went back to level three, four, five, kind of moving toward multiplication. I'm with you there, but we do also have this this is innate to what it means to be creating the image of God this kind of future focus. We care about the next generation and I frankly, I pray you agree on this no-transcript, it's exponential per se, but at least a vision of additional growth today because our theology, as you have stated, dr Scholz, is so fantastic, it's so rich, because it's the word of God. It comes out of the word of God and then out of our tradition, from Martin Luther over the last 500 years. So any hopeful visions that you kind of have for the LCMS in the generations to come, dr Scholz.
Speaker 2:I think who called the Synod a sleeping giant. You know, I think some of Billy Graham maybe, or somebody before that. We had the infrastructure and the potential to become a big and huge church.
Speaker 2:You know schooling and all that is something to be proud of you know, we have something, at least in terms of infrastructure around this country, that could expose our gospel to other people out there, and we must utilize that. I don't think we should, you know, talk about the synod only in terms of its members, but I do would like to see the schooling system also opening itself up to others and bring a clear message to the world out there that we have something to share. So I think positive attitudes are needed. I also think a little bit, aside from what the beautiful teachings and the doctrine and the gospel that we have, I also think we should become more engaged in, I would say, collection of data. You know, maybe I would say something that you know is social science oriented.
Speaker 2:I would say that we have come to that level now where we have realized where are our Lutheran churches located? Where are they not located? I think we need studies in that area. We need to ask ourselves this country is huge and yet, at the same time, we have not yet covered the entire country with churches. So I do think there's a positive element now emerging in our synod where we are realizing the need for us to be present in areas and places where we have never been before, and I think that the constellation of our churches will probably change over time, following those people the snowbirds or the reverse birds, you know going back up north at least to know that we have to gather that kind of data and share it with one another and not be afraid of using it. Demographic studies are also important in terms of new coming people, people from outside. So I would say that we have a huge potential to think through our mission in this country in such a way that we can actually consider ourselves an expanding movement if we want to.
Speaker 1:I want to.
Speaker 3:I'll say this we need to have permission to dream big, I think with peace and joy in the gospel. And I was struck by not a Lutheran study, but it was kind of an inter-church study the Discipling, all the World's Nations study, the Dawn study, where they said that Christianity becomes normative when you have one preacher for every 500 people in a population. And then I look at the city we live in, you know the Phoenix metro area, where there's millions of people, and I say, wow, we need to think on a different level of scale if we really really want to enter into mission work like a radically different level of scale, and we need permission to do that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, a radically different level of scale, and we need permission to do that. Yeah Well, you need to also know. However, in doing so, you need to have the church backing you and supporting you.
Speaker 2:You cannot run against walls only. But I would agree with your visionary idea because it does include that you know the mission greats you know that started something out of nothing, like our founder Willem Luehr here, but also the other mission greats they had. You know William Carey, for example, had the North India in mind. You know people would think they absurd with those propositions. So I would say it does include ideas that are moving, moving, moving as something that has become less, less mobile, if you will. And our church can and should be moved by a great idea or vision that can actually, however, be implemented in such a way that the church is able to move forward.
Speaker 1:Amen, amen, amen, united, confessing Jesus as King and Lord.
Speaker 1:That is God's mission and God's mission has a church, all of the baptized, going out to proclaim in their various vocations who Jesus is and what he's done with a sense of urgency. You see that in the early church I mean the days are short Christ is coming back and will he find a confessing church speaking with clarity the gospel of Jesus Christ? I pray the answer is yes and I know that includes the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, and this is simply a podcast. It's praying that we would unite around that vision, with a clear proclamation of law and gospel, in the hopes of people repenting and believing and, following confessing, joining the mission, which is the only mission really worth living.
Speaker 1:The purpose that flows from our identity in Jesus, in our baptismal reality. I mean this is the best thing ever and we should do so with winsomeness, you know, with great joy and great hope, which is centered in the resurrection, the return very, very soon of Jesus Christ to make all things new. Dr Scholz, if people want to connect with you, how can they do so? This has been such a joy.
Speaker 2:Well, I do have an email, you know, and that you can look at ctsfwedu that's an acronym for our Concordia Theological Seminary, fort Wayne dot org. And they would find me there as a faculty teaching. So I don't have a blog or anything. I have a Facebook, but I rarely use it. It's been a great joy talking to you. I think this discussion is not ended. We can always talk about particulars, you know, but I think this discussion has not ended. We can always talk about particulars, you know, but I think it's good to start with a broader idea and work with that, you know, and let that serve as our foundation and then, you know, start moving forward. We do have people who would hopefully join us in this and think it through as well. So I'm hopeful and I'm optimistic. Amen.
Speaker 1:Likewise. Well, the way you can connect is to pick up Mission from the Cross, the Lutheran theology of mission published back in, I think, 1998. Is that right, Dr Schultz?
Speaker 2:No no 2009.
Speaker 1:2009. I was off by no no 2009. 2009. I was off by a decade. My apologies.
Speaker 2:I've just come off with a new book here called Theological Anthropology as well. So, especially in the third part. I talk about vocation. So what we discussed there briefly is more elaborate in that, more elaborate, you know, in that volume of called Theological Anthropology and Sin.
Speaker 1:You know, it has been a joy to have you, dr Schultz to be sure, and I'm just a parish pastor in Phoenix Arizona and I got a principal that's waiting for me on a meeting right now on a weekly connection. So what a joy to be with you, brother. You're a gift to the church and this is Lead Time. Sharing is caring, like, subscribe, comment wherever it is you take in podcasts, and we continue to have, hopefully uniting, jesus-filled, confessing, mission-oriented conversations with leaders like Dr Schultz. Wonderful work, jack and Dr Schultz. It was an honor.
Speaker 2:Thank you, god's blessings to you. Thank you very much. Bye-bye.