Lead Time
Lead Time
Revitalizing the Church One Small Community at a Time with Pastor Travis Hartjen
What if the future of the church lies not in grand, imposing structures, but in the intimate connections made within small communities? Join us as we uncover the fascinating journey of Pastor Travis Hartjen, a dedicated church planter and youth minister. His story is a powerful testament to the transformative potential of staying within the church to enact change.
Explore the evolving world of youth ministry with Travis, as he shares insights on engaging today's skeptical teens with authenticity and sincerity. Discover how he navigates the complex landscape of mega churches and concert-like worship experiences by fostering meaningful, personal relationships within smaller church settings. We discuss the shift from traditional sermons to interactive, discussion-based approaches, creating spaces where young people can find their identity and purpose in Christ, and promoting genuine discipleship.
The conversation takes a deeper turn as we discuss the critical need for leadership development and community building within the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod. Pastor Travis shares his experiences and challenges in transitioning from youth ministry to a pastoral role, emphasizing the importance of shared leadership and unity among churches. Learn how new church plants can breathe life into existing congregations and how fostering authentic relationships can lead to a more collaborative and supportive church environment. Be inspired by stories of bold faith, as we explore the potential of emerging leaders to steer the church toward a sustainable and joy-filled future.
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Speaker 2:Welcome to Lead Time, tim Allman here with Jack Kauberg. Jack, how are you doing, man?
Speaker 3:I'm doing fantastic. How about yourself?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a great day to be alive. It's getting cool here in the Phoenix area. Life is good and we pray. The fire of the Holy Spirit is what's fueling you for an awesome conversation. Leaning into a brother that I have heard about from afar but never got the opportunity to kind of hang out and hear more of his story, we get to hang out with Pastor Travis Harchin today. He is a pastor who has been a DCE. We're both Bulldogs from Concordia, seward, nebraska, where he received his youth ministry degree. And what year did you graduate from Seward?
Speaker 4:97. So I'm an old dog? No, you're not, I'm an old dog.
Speaker 2:You're not old and then he became an SMP pastor in our church body praise be to God. And that was back in 2008 or so. Is that right?
Speaker 4:Yeah, I was actually in the second class, so I started in 2009.
Speaker 2:All right. So the specific ministry pastor program a shout out to all of our SMP pastors doing wonderful work. But he is a serial church planner. He is currently in his fourth church plant called Reclaim, just outside the DFW area, the Northwest corridor. There we're going to talk a lot about church planning, youth ministry, care for the next gen, launching new things to reach new people with the gospel of Jesus Christ. A little more about Travis. He loves the Green Bay Packers Not going to hold that against you. The Astros. Good barbecue. He's a Texas boy and spending evenings on his back porch with a good drink and winning at cornhole or euchre man. You sound like a party, a Jesus party hanging out at the.
Speaker 2:Harchin house for sure. So, travis, thanks for hanging with us today. Buddy, how are you doing?
Speaker 4:Absolutely my pleasure and I'm doing very well. Thank you All, right, all right.
Speaker 2:So let's get into defining the purpose of a purpose-driven youth ministry. You've spoken a little bit about this, and tell your youth ministry story and a little shout out to the work we just were talking before we hit play on. Uh, shaping the lives of Jacob and Jordan Besling and many other other leaders, uh, passing on the faith to the next gen. Just tell a little bit about your youth ministry story there, travis, as we get going.
Speaker 4:Yeah, um, well, uh, it actually starts when I'm in high school. Uh, grew up in Rockford, illinois, and, uh, and when I was 16 years old, my dad got a job transfer to San Diego, california, and I got tagged into Christ Lutheran Church in La Mesa and I had a fantastic DCE, sherry Slander, and her impact in my life, and it was my junior year, maybe my senior year. We were doing a lock-in and I remember getting an overwhelming sense of a call to do ministry, and not only to just do ministry, but a call to remain in the Lutheran Church, because I was on the fence whether I was going to go Lutheran Church or join one of the non-Denoms in the beautiful South California area, and the overwhelming sense was if everyone leaves a church that I love, who's going to be there to change it? And I felt very, very convicted on that. And so, as I started to wrestle with it, I realized that youth ministry at that time was a great avenue to be innovative, to be creative and to bring the gospel to this generation that was starting to question, wander away and ultimately, too often, reject the church. And so I went to bring the gospel to this generation that was starting to question, wander away and ultimately too often reject the church. And so I went to Concordia. My first call was Trinity, downtown Houston, texas, like the mother church of so many churches in the Texas area. They never had youth ministry.
Speaker 4:I did junior high, senior high youth ministry and I think that's probably when Rick Warren was putting out his purpose-driven life and youth ministry. That's when I had a chance to be with the Bessling Boys and minister to them and honestly, youth ministry for me at that point was a lot of energy, try to make them laugh, try to convince them to listen and see what God might do on the weekends. And I did that for till 2000 and then got called to Redeemer in Austin, texas, for just senior high youth ministry for the next eight years and I loved it. It was wonderful.
Speaker 4:I think what I love about youth ministry and why I think it's so valuable and worthy of investment within our church body is because you really, man, they can smell counterfeit in a heartbeat. Man, they can smell counterfeit in a heartbeat. And so it refines the heart of the leader because you got to bring what you truly believe and you've got to be willing to build relationships with kids that already suspect of you and I absolutely love that and I value the lessons that I got from that and I think purpose driven, that thing is kind of come and gone but I think at the end of the day, you know, what I love is good youth ministry isn't about entertaining. Good youth ministry is about helping kids figure out their identity in Christ, helping kids finding out their purpose in Christ and their gifting and their calling in Christ, and it's such a great formative time to do that, if done well, yeah.
Speaker 2:Let's go deeper in terms of time to do that, if done well. Yeah, let's go deeper in terms of youth ministry. Go ahead, Jack.
Speaker 3:Well, what is? I was going to ask, what does that look like from a practical perspective, kind of achieving those things? What would somebody do? Practically right, because you said people can smell inauthenticity or authenticity.
Speaker 3:That's something we're looking at yeah, what does that look like to engage that generation? Right, and I think what we know about the teen generation, especially like senior highs, that's probably one of the most skeptical ages, like high school, early college ages that's probably like the most skeptical age that you probably enter into right, so what does it look like to engage?
Speaker 4:age that you probably enter into right? So what does it look like to engage? Well, I think that's been the big shift from when I started youth ministry to where I think youth ministry is today. I think youth ministry today needs to be more and more focused on small, intentional discipleship and it has to be like one of the things that we do in our church plants. That has found a lot of uh traction is, all of our messages are kind of more, um, we encourage discussion and conversation throughout my, my message, and so, uh, where the traditional is, you have a 15, 20 minute sermon.
Speaker 4:You stand up there, you lecture, you talk, you entertain, you try to make them laugh, you try to tell them a pithy story from your life or history, and then you tie it all into scripture.
Speaker 4:Nothing wrong with that, but what we discovered in youth ministry and we're seeing play out now as they're becoming young adults and young families, is they want to talk about it and wrestle with it, because they have so much information that they have access to through podcasts, through videos, through reels, all of that, and so it's not a matter of giving them information, it's a matter of helping them to discern information and then apply that information into their lives and into their hearts in a way that would bring glory to God. And so I think the real practical thing is continue to lean into discussion-based Bible studies where you can ask the questions, not just give them the answer and let them wrestle with it and do what Jesus did. He was consummate question asker and he let people kind of figure it out and wander and not always come up with the right answer at first, but then challenge with another question and another question and then ultimately end there. And I think that's one of the practical things that we can embrace in the whole church, not just in youth ministry.
Speaker 2:That's good.
Speaker 2:We live in Phoenix Arizona and there are a lot of larger churches Like we're a large Lutheran church but there's a lot of like mega churches who attract hundreds of kids and my kids have gone to these experiences and they say it's like a concert, you know.
Speaker 2:And then there's maybe some small group stuff and like we can't, even though we've done contemporary worship, like we're not going to replicate that every Sunday and it's kind of kind of hard, but still kids are looking for that kind of do my, do my friends want to want to go there. Right, is it going to be some sort? They're looking for some type of experience, but we want the experience to flip toward discipleship and depth. That's such a hard sell when there's competition for kids kind of energy, and if my friends at my Christian high school are going to this place, then I want to be there too. So there's an attract struggle, I think, right up front, especially in this market, I would imagine in many suburban areas. How do you balance that attract nature of youth ministry and then get toward deeper discipleship? Any thoughts there, travis?
Speaker 4:Yeah, I think my encouragement would be be true to who you are and what you're good at and like for again going into the world of church planting. We're a small church plant and you know we have 15 people. There's no way we could have the quality of worship that any number of churches in our area could possibly have. There's no way we could have the bells and the whistles and all of what comes with mega church in Dallas, fort Worth area. And so we don't try to compete with that. We try to do as excellent as we can with what we have. But we lean into what we are gifted and what the lane that God has uniquely given us, and that is intimate, deep relationships with accountability.
Speaker 4:Now, as it turns to youth ministry, I think the challenge is, like you said, youth are obsessed with being where their friends are at, and if you can't get their friends there, it's really brutal.
Speaker 4:But youth are also responsive, I think, to genuine care and concern, and that's what sometimes those large megachurches struggle with, because at the end of the day, most of those kids are just a number that comes through the doors, checks in and checks out and there's no further connection. What's going on there and so and again, that's not an indictment I mean churches that have the resources to do the big color wars at the beginning of the school year and the churches that have the big resources to bring in a band like Unspoken and play for the night. God bless you. Thank you so much. I will encourage my kids to go there Absolutely. But my responsibility in my lane is then to take them as intimately and as deeply as possible into that scripture that we're so faithful. So I would say let the big churches be big churches and use them for all you can and be a small church or a small youth group and live in your lane and do it as excellently as you possibly can.
Speaker 2:Have you heard of any churches and groups of churches, circuits etc. Saying hey, we're going to get together for the attract perspective to make it like, if you're in an area within 15-20 minutes where you could drive, like we're going to try to do that, but then we're going to disperse discipleship into our respective congregations. Have you heard of any congregations having success with that?
Speaker 4:Tim, you're asking a notoriously tribal and territorial church body to partner together to do something for the kingdom that they can't do alone and, unfortunately. I wish our entire church body would have that mentality and that posture, but I'm not seeing it done as often Now in our DFW area I know that the DCEs because we no longer do a Texas District Junior High Gathering, because we no longer do a Texas District Junior High gathering and because we no longer do a Texas District Senior High gathering the DCEs are starting to do exactly what you talked about, tim. Where they gather together, in fact, this weekend is their big recess retreat, where a church would have a hard time doing a retreat for maybe their five or eight kids no-transcript.
Speaker 2:oh, they just want contemporary worship. It's not about that. It's about a critical mass of kids there, and what I'm referring to is what past generations had. It was called the Walther League. It was called the Walther League, and a number of different churches getting together and they ended up finding their spouses in other Lutheran churches, like, what's so wrong about that? Let's just. Let's bring back the Walter league.
Speaker 1:Travis, let's go you know it's a challenge.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay. Well, let's let's transition just a bit. Talk about why there's such a your story from being a DCE to then being an SMP pastor. Like this happens quite a bit in the LCMS. Why are there so many DCEs that eventually especially if you're a male, right Because you don't have female pastors become pastors in the LCMS? Talk about that evolution a little bit. My DCE growing up shout out to Tim Lindeman. He was a 20 plus year DCE. He shaped me big time and he became an SMP pastor as well. Just tell a little bit of that story, travis.
Speaker 4:Well, I think, yeah, for me it was. I had hit again the heart. My heart was always to be a change agent within the larger church, and youth ministry, I thought, was a great vehicle for that. And what I realized was the larger church kind of treated youth ministry as, oh, that's nice for high school kids, but that's not applicable to the larger church, rather than seeing it as like, oh, that's the wave that's going to be here before we realize it. We should learn from that. They kind of patted us on the head and said you keep doing your youth ministry. And so for me it was partly frustration of I had reached a glass ceiling of influence and so I was actually ready to tap out after my third child was born. He was born December 5th.
Speaker 4:On December 6th I had to be back in the office and it was a really brutal birth for my wife and I had to be back in the office. And it was a really brutal birth for my wife and I had to be back in the office because it's December in the church and it's a busy month and there's youth things that need to happen, and I remember leaving the office halfway through the day, sitting in my car and crying for a half hour and I'm like, if this is what it is, if this is what it takes to do ministry, I'm out, I'm tapping out, I'm done. And I went into my senior pastor that 16th of that month Great time to have these conversations with the senior pastor, by the way, and a shout out to Dave Schroeder because he was brilliant in this moment and I said I don't know what I'm supposed to do, but I know my season in youth ministry is coming to an end. I can no longer sacrifice family time to hang out with other families' kids, and that's part of the tension, I think, for so many youth ministers is, as you start to get your own family, what you realize is the time you can connect with your junior, high and high school kids are from three to eight in the evenings and on the weekends. Well, eventually, when can you only connect with your own kids? Three to eight, same, and then on the weekends. And so at some point you're sacrificing so much for your own kids three to eight, and then on the weekends. And so at some point you're sacrificing so much for your own family time for other families and it just for me it became too much. And Pastor Dave, god bless him he said well, let's give it a year and see what God's up to.
Speaker 4:And within that year God captured my heart towards church planting and I was able to step into that reluctantly, because I had a meeting with Paul Krentz, who was the district exec at that time, and he said have you thought about church planting? I said no, he goes. Why not? I was like because you'd have to be a pastor and I don't want to be a pastor. He's like why don't you want to be a pastor? And I think this is important too why DCEs don't want to be pastors? And I said because I don't see any pastors that live a life that I want to live. I see most pastors that are putting in 60, 70, 80 hours a week. Their families are barely holding on and they're stressed. There's no joy, there's no excitement and they're just kind of there's nothing that I want to replicate there.
Speaker 4:And Paul Kruntz, knowing me, he goes why don't you do it differently and show them that it can be done different? And I cursed him. I'll be honest, I've confessed that and I am where I am now. So, in short order, I think the reason why that transition begins to happen is because of family pressures their own family pressures and the needs of youth ministry to do what they need to do. I think the other thing is we unfortunately in the Lutheran Church have a mechanical approach to ministry. Where we have a need, we find a cog, we put that cog within the organization to utilize those gifts in different ways, and we just don't do that well as a Lutheran church, and so I think a lot of guys find themselves in a system that they no longer want to be in and the only way out is to get an SMP and answer the call of God that way. So I hope that didn't step on too many toes.
Speaker 2:No, I mean, you're talking our language right, jack. You had me at leadership development. You had me at growth. You had me at humility. You had me at team. You had me at. There's got to be a better way. There's got to be a Jesus way, a team filled way, and not a way that, like, snuffs out the joy when I hear you say that you've had pastors that don't have joy, like you're going to talk about Jesus. You get to mobilize people for the gospel.
Speaker 2:Like this is the greatest thing ever. You should be developing boundaries where you take care of yourself heart, body, mind, spirit and equip the saints, release the saints based on their respective gifting. I don't know. It seems like we've missed something which I think is the leadership development component uh, within discipleship and we've missed empowerment. We've said he's the guy that does it all, rather than he's the guy that develops people. Go ahead, jack.
Speaker 3:I have to do everything, so I'm on point all the time and I've not delegated any of that to anybody, anybody. And that's why people are putting in 60, 70, 80 hours is because they're not inviting anybody to help them with ministry. Right, people will say no, no, no. I'm asking and people say no. It's like what is the vision that you're casting for them, right? What are you doing to equip them so they actually feel comfortable to say yes? Right, you know, it's not just about the asking, it's about casting a vision and actually equipping people to do it. And then there'll be willing to say yes, and so that starts to shift.
Speaker 3:Then, like, what is the actual job description? Yes, there's word in sacrament, right, but the development side of it gets neglected. And if you lean in the development side and say at least 50 percent of my job is development for people to do, to do ministry, then it changes the logistics of ministry dramatically. Right, and I'll tell you, there is no church on the planet that functions solely on the work of paid staff. It can't function Any, any, any church at all that exists even remotely healthy.
Speaker 3:Healthy is equipping people to serve in volunteer capacities right and not just doing tasks actually leading things right.
Speaker 4:And so what happens, jack and I appreciate what you guys are saying and I champion the spell is you have a guy who's putting in 67 hours a week, so there's no bandwidth, there's no margin, and instead of developing his volunteers, he dumps on his volunteers and so he says, hey, I need someone to lead Sunday school. Here's all the curriculum. I'm never going to check back in on you, I'm not going to develop you, I'm not going to answer any of your questions, and then you're going to burn out. In two years. You're going to feel guilty about it. I'm going to now have to ask someone else who has seen this person burn out. Because I dump, I don't develop.
Speaker 4:And, man, if we could figure out how to just organize our margins so that we have time to develop the ministers. I'm telling you that the greatest untapped resource we have within our church bodies is our elders, and the reason why I say that is 90% of our churches are led by men who have master's degrees of divinity. They could go to a college and teach college classes, and yet most of their elders have been elders for multiple generations and years and are still content to just pass out bulletins, maybe help with communion, and reluctantly go visit the shut-ins Instead of saying my job with a master's degree of divinity is to train my elders to be a pastor one day, to actually administer word and sacrament within our ecclesiology.
Speaker 3:I know we got big issues there. The local seminary right.
Speaker 4:Yes, yes, but we don't have margin for that, we don't have a passion for that, we don't have a vision for that. And so most of our elders, these men who God has called and equipped to be catalysts and trends, like transformational leaders within our community, they're sitting there on Sunday morning at best, or they just stopped showing up because they're like I can make a bigger impact with my fantasy football league on Sunday morning than I can, sitting there listening to a man who doesn't even know my first name. I'm sorry.
Speaker 2:Travis. No, I mean, this is one of the clarion calls. We've been down this path with many different conversations. It's because we've not been trained. Pastors have not been trained to disciple potential pastors. Not every elder is going to become an ordained servant of Word and Sacrament, but some will. We're living in that reality right now. Some will say, yeah, here I am, send me. I'm in a different season of life. I can serve bivocational, co-vocational or maybe full-time down the line, but I don't know that those that are in leadership in the LCMS today want to have that conversation. They think it will be too disruptive.
Speaker 3:If they can lead a small group, that's a win. You know Right? Well, that's where you'd start, jack.
Speaker 2:You wouldn't start with leading a church, right, exactly, yeah, go lead a small group discussion and then let's start just gathering together. This isn't rocket science. We just gather together and our Lutheran mind gets formed over time when we read the confessions, when we read good Lutheran literature, when we read about the character of Christ seen in leadership, and oh yeah, and we dig into the word of God and we apply God's word consistently. That is it. If anybody looks at the Christ Greenfield story right now, that's all it is Like. We're just getting together with women and men but men for potential pastoral and we're talking about Jesus, we're talking about the way of Jesus, the work of Jesus. We're talking a lot of gospel with them. And then we're digging into Lutheran theology and we're doing that with our staff as well and they love it. We're now way more and I say this, I say this very genuinely We've never been more Lutheran, confessional Lutheran, than we were when we started to do the leadership development journey big time, with intention and with a multiplication aim right To train trainers and to train master trainers. So we have that multiplication impact. Like what you have received.
Speaker 2:You were called 2 Timothy 2.2, you're called to pass on to the next generation. Like this is. It's never. You're a river, not a reservoir. It's never meant to just stop with you. You're now supposed to set up Jesus conversations with people in your area of influence and your family of ministries here and and we'll just see what the Lord does.
Speaker 2:Is it a little? Is it a little wild? Is it? Is it a little uncontrollable? I don't know. Like the spirit's at work, the spirit's doing what the spirit wants to do. It's invigorating and I got to land the plane right here. I work like 50 hours a week, 45, 50 hours a week. Everybody else in our team does and I'm fired up for ministry and I've been doing this pushing 20 years, man, I've been doing Word and Sacrament ministry. It's because I'm on a team. It's that simple and that's what fueled Jesus from a mission. That's what fueled the early church for mission is they weren't doing it alone, they were not solopreneurs, they were entrepreneurs, kingdom entrepreneurs with team, with, obviously, the sending power of the Holy Spirit. So, yeah, you couldn't be more correct, travis. I love that you're in our church body. Praise be to God that you didn't leave.
Speaker 4:Well, and I would say two things. One is, your fire comes from the fact that you're in the trenches and you're seeing transformation. And you see the fact that you're in the trenches and you're seeing transformation and you see the transformation because you're in the trenches with the people wrestling with these concepts and ideas. And taking it back to the beginning of the conversation, you want to know what youth ministry needs to look like in today's age. It's exactly what you just talked about. Where we're not there and the win isn't man. We got 15 kids gathered together. It's really man. These kids are missionaries sent into this world, and so my job is to prepare them as if they are missionaries into this world, giving them good theology, good doctrine and allowing the Spirit to do what the Spirit does.
Speaker 4:Again, I think we forget sometimes who Jesus started this whole thing off with. It was a bunch of nobodies that were literally blue collar, hardworking guys, and all of a sudden, three years later, they're transforming the entire world. Right, and it's because Jesus was in the trenches. Jesus was about transformation in their hearts and in their lives. He was there. He was there through the highs and the lows, through the times, when he says hey, peter, get behind me. You're Satan right now. And the times that man. Peter, your confession was beautiful, thank you.
Speaker 4:The church is going to be built on that kind of confession and it just all of that is in the mess.
Speaker 4:And we, we try to. I think sometimes in our, in our German heritage, we try to over educate and over industrialize it so that it can be replicated, replicated, replicated, replicated like a widget. And man, the relationship of Jesus Christ and the mission ministry of Jesus Christ is anything but a widget. It is about hitting your knees and desperately seeking the direction of the Spirit, which I think we could re-embrace somewhat within our Lutheran body, not forgoing any of the information and the wonderful truth that we've discovered over 2,000 years of history and 500 years of the confessions, but to be able to sit down and say, spirit, who are you calling? And I never thought that person would be the person, but I'm going to get in the trenches with them. I'm going to watch you do the miraculous in their hearts and in their lives and see what you can do. And I'll be honest, there's people in my past and my history that still come up to me. I'm like I cannot believe you're a church worker. I'm like, yeah, but Jesus transformed me.
Speaker 2:Praise me to God. So good, it's so good. Hey, we need. There's a vision vacuum. Today I've talked to a number of different folks within the Missouri Synod and there's an ongoing struggle with hey, do we need to focus on revitalization or new starts? I think it's both, to be sure, but we have to have vision, which fuels then the need for multiplying disciples, like if I'm discipling someone toward what end? Is there a vision toward the new small group? There's going to be some sort of a new movement of God to reach people that are far from Christ. So you've been a part of a number of new ministries, and that's a bit rare and beautiful. What would you tell someone who says we don't need new ministries and churches in the LCMS. We need to strengthen what we have. What's your comment to them, travis, being a church planner?
Speaker 4:Well, I would agree with you, tim, that we need both, and probably my response to them would be like how tragic would it be when a family gets to the point where they're like, oh, we don't need more kids or grandkids. You know what? I've done my job. I'm a parent. I got three kids. I am ecstatic that none of my kids are going to have any more kids, it's just us, and we're going to go into the sunset. How tragic would that be. And yet that's kind of the attitude that sometimes we have, and so I think we absolutely need both, and I think what God uses sometimes is, in these church plants and in these innovative ministries, the hard work of revitalization comes as they partner together to make these things happen. What do I mean by that? Well, the story that I love is when Peter gets out of the boat and walks on the water. You know who didn't get out of the boat Were 11 other disciples that were in the boat, but they saw Peter get out of the boat. And it says when Peter got back into the boat, the 11 worshiped God in a new way because they saw something miraculous happen. And I think sometimes that's what church planting and new mission starts can do. It can be an incubator for innovative, creative ways to bring the gospel into the new culture that hopefully, if we're doing it well, is brought back into the boat to encourage the others that didn't have the courage or didn't have the calling, more importantly, to step out. But now they're seeing something miraculous happen. They're like holy smokes. God is still working in our culture. God is still active. It's not competition, it's collaboration and we're a part of this story to make that happen.
Speaker 4:I had a conversation with one of our partner churches here in the DFW area and the name is Peace in Hearst, texas, and they have been the granddad of church planting in our area forever and a day. And I put together the slides. I'm like do you guys realize? These are the churches that have started because you did these three church plants and this church plant did a church plant and this church plant did these four church plants, and those four church plants are now helping with these church plants Because of you and what your mission ministry is. You only worship 400 on a Sunday, but all of these church plants put together worship 1,800 on a Sunday because of you and your innovation.
Speaker 4:I think that's again where the church plants and new mission starts, have a chance to revitalize and remind them. Oh wait, we are making an impact beyond just the castle that we build. There's a kingdom thing that's going on and we can be a part of that. And I think anytime the church embraces the creativity that is uniquely God I mean God is a creative God. Satan is not creative. Satan is not at all. Only God is a creative God. Satan is not creative, satan is not at all. Only God is creative and anytime the church embraces the creativity and the character of God, in that he does amazing things that you, just you don't experience in other ways.
Speaker 2:Love it Jack. Any comments?
Speaker 3:I love it, this telling a story of multiplication. We don't often think that way. Like Chris Greenfield planted a church and now that church is doing really really well out in Queen Valley Right yeah, Queen Creek, we're you know, we we launched La Mesa ministries. Those are two worship experiences. I don't know that we do a great job all the time showing the family tree.
Speaker 3:And I think that is a powerful, missional story that people need to know about because it's actually very impressive and we're part of a family tree. There's a church that planted us, we were planted by Gethsemane and here we are now really exerting a lot of influence within the LCMS and that's their story, like it's not just our story, it's their story, right, that they get to share in. Yeah, wow, that's just a lot to think about so generally.
Speaker 2:American individualism has impacted our individual churches too Correct. Where we don't see the you get, you start talking like Genesis be fruitful and multiply, like, like expansion and and multiplication is in our DNA, from the core of the family and there is an assault against the family today. And having kids, I tell our, our young people, get married, get married, have lots. An assault against the family today and having kids. I tell our young people get married, get married, have lots of kids, get married, have lots of kids Get married early too.
Speaker 1:Get married early, early early 100%.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the demographics on late marriage are pretty startling today. So, and the church is going to be there to support you in that journey. There's going to be grandmas and grandpas all around connected to the church, and I love when my wife and I we get to hold little babies at church to give the new mom a birth. Anyway, so many cool stories there. But the same metaphor needs to take place in the church. You are the body of Christ, you're the bride of Christ, you've been married to the groom and the groom wants to go and multiply, get all of his kids back. You know, there's this sending nature to the church that I think we're not talking about enough today. And if you focus on the mission God's mission to get all of his kids back and God's mission then has a church If you focus on that, then you're obviously then going to focus on discipleship and leadership development. More leaders in more communities like that is the byproduct.
Speaker 2:But if we start to hide and I think in some corners, like we're hiding from the mission, there are leaders in our church body. You'd think would be like knocking down our door to like, hey, what's going on there? How is the Lord doing this? What's the story, but I don't know that they want to have the conversation because it could upset the institutions, the castles that we've, the institutions, the castles that we've built, rather than the kingdom expansion that the Holy Spirit wants to bring today.
Speaker 2:So I think it comes down to we need a collective vision and I'm not just calling out President Harrison and others that bubbles up. Vision has to bubble up from the local church. This conversation is just a manifestation of leaders at the local level saying, hey, we're going to do whatever it takes to get into our community, to multiply disciples, to start new ministries, to be about revitalization of struggling churches. Like, we're on the ground, we're at the grassroots and we want to play While it is day. We got to play today. So we need a hope-filled vision in the LCMS. Anything you'd add to to that hope-filled vision that springs up from the grassroots? Travis? Well, yeah.
Speaker 4:Um, I the. The thing that I would add is uh, we have got to re-embrace what a synod is at its best, and that's a brotherhood of people walking together. And we have fallen in love with I'll do it myself and we kind of have these three different silos. We have the large church that, quite honestly, just like it's easier if we just do it, and so they will go and they'll do things and they'll kind of not include or invite some of the medium sized or smaller churches. Some of the smaller churches or medium churches, they just don't have the resources. And the synod at its best is when we can come together and say, hey, we all got gifts that we can give to this thing. Some of us 10 talents, some of us five, some of us one. We all are needed these talents, but we're going to do this together to make that happen.
Speaker 4:And I think that's where some of the headway that I've found, or some of the to minimize the tension that we have sometimes between our church bodies, is to have this organization called Groundbreakers to Harvesters, where St Paul isn't working with Crown of Life and the issues that have been there. St Paul is working with Groundbreakers to Harvesters and St Crown of Life is working with Groundbreakers to Harvesters, and so they can work together. Does that make sense? And I think sometimes that's what's needed.
Speaker 4:It's like a marriage that's on the rocks. You need a counselor to have the conversation that desperately needs to be had. Both of them know they need to have the conversation, but they can't have it with each other because of defensiveness and the tension. But if you put a third point into that tension, all of a sudden they can go. Oh wait, that's where our focus can be, and they'll actually grow closer together as they grow towards that one point up there in the mission. And so I think, just re-embracing the big idea, we have got to be able to do more together than we can do alone, and the work, the harvest is plentiful, so let's figure out how to do it together.
Speaker 3:And ideally I was going to say ideally a denomination or a synod thinks that way, like they think that's kind of like our purpose, right. So either they're doing it directly or they're providing the resource to do that right.
Speaker 2:Right. So you mentioned three silos. You mentioned the large church network, or previously known as the mega church, and I've been a part of that group and therefore I can lovingly challenge it. This is not an individual thing, but I have heard from a number of older pastors what good is walking together in the synod we are, we are kind of synod, and I don't think that's a helpful perspective and I and I lovingly I know where it comes from, I know it comes from pain, I know it comes from hurt, relationships and things, and it may also come from pride and that's not of the Holy Spirit. So, but anything more to say though on the three. You said large church. What are the other two, as you kind of look at the landscape of the LCMS?
Speaker 4:Yeah, excellent. The medium sized church and the small church I think all three of those kind of have their own unique challenges and I think ego is the big thing that haunts all of them, because the medium church has ego challenges and issues. The small church has resource and survival issues and have a scarcity sometimes scarcity not always and it's just really hard because they see the big church as sometimes of a bully and the big church can sometimes be faster than the medium or small church and so it's just. It's a weird relational problem that often is hard for them to navigate. That's why circuits should be working very well, where we care for each other, we encourage each other and we celebrate each other, even though we come at things very differently.
Speaker 4:But instead I found that most circuits are riddled with lack of trust, division and often just people are tapping out and like, well, they're not going to commune with us or we're not going to commune with them and we're not going to get together when we get at that place and that place, and it becomes all of this division and this competition rather than what it should be of like saying, hey, you guys are in the trenches it's a different trench than mine. But I know the trench and I'm going to encourage you guys, because what you do at Messiah and Keller I could never do, and praise God that you do it as well as you do, because you're connecting with people who would never come to my church and I thank God that you're doing it and you're loving them and caring for them and discipling them the way that you're doing that. That would be a much better message in those circuit meetings than I think sometimes what we get.
Speaker 3:But that's again you know, and what you're talking about is a cultural issue rather than a systemic one. Systemically speaking, circuits should be, in theory, doing exactly what you said. So that system exists, but the culture doesn't use that system. Right, change, or, let's say, a church body, you know, a multi-congregational church body to actually change that culture, to be more collaborative, to be less autonomous. But also, maybe part of the fear that brings us to autonomy is a fear of hyper hierarchy, right, that we don't want to be part necessarily of a part of a hierarchy too that dictates things. What, what does that look like culturally, to see a cultural transformation in a church body?
Speaker 4:um, again, I go back to relationships, relationships, relationships, and I think, um, just like in a good relationship, that there's conflict and there's distrust, it's got to begin with confession from all parties, all parties, and it it's gotta be now that a token confession of like I'm really sorry, it's gotta be like I had no idea that this behavior was creating this tension or this stress, and I apologize and I'm going to engage in a process to repent from that and turn from that so that you would know I'm on your side, not against you, but for you and what God has uniquely called you to do.
Speaker 4:And so I think the first step is we need to learn how to confess to each other as leaders and we need to learn how to, in humility and I love that word that you used earlier, humility come and say I don't know the answers that our church is stronger if we can brotherhood together and encourage each other than it is standing at a distance and pointing and judging each other. I know that instinctively, and I think that's one of the things that broke my heart at the convention is that it seemed like, with the tensions of the Concordia is that one of the parties was willing to have a confession moment and the other party refused to even acknowledge that anything that they had engaged in may have been inappropriate or wrong, and I fear, if that takes root within our church body, we have a really hard road ahead of us. Have a really hard road ahead of us.
Speaker 3:This is ultimately what launches the Reformation. Really, is that mindset right? And unwillingness to get into hard conversations about our faith right? It was basically shut up and this is the way we do it and that's not going to stand. I mean, ultimately, these things there has to be a way to engage in a healthy way on issues of disagreement right, and that's going to be the way that you ultimately maintain a healthy church body and create unity is actually create safe space to have conversations about these issues and not just shut them down.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and doesn't our church have an entire process to go through restoration and to engage in that process? To go through restoration and to engage in that? And it seems like if we have a process and we have people who are trained in that, it might be a wise idea to leverage that. And again, it's got to be as much as we can hold the authority in contempt. The reality is, it's the churches on the ground and our willingness to work together, regardless of whatever the worship style is, or whether we wear, you know, clericals, or whether we wear robe up or not robe. If the group, if the ground level of the roots change, the hierarchy will have to change, and so I think we can focus there, with the churches within our synod or our circuit or the churches within our city, and just begin to love, care and encourage each other and celebrate each other and figure out what it is to walk together again.
Speaker 2:Hey, yeah, it's about the stories that we tell the stories, stories of brothers caring for one another, listening to one another and and I'm going to again back to the large and medium sized church go to your circuit meetings, please, winkles whatever you end up calling them, please make that, make your church present there, because that's where it, that's where it starts Brother to brother, sitting down over a meal, worshiping with one another, communing with one another and centering ourselves around.
Speaker 2:And if pastors can't model the liturgy which is centered in confessing Christ and then confessing our sin and our desperate need for Christ, I mean, that's got to be the starting point. And if you haven't read the book Difficult Conversations, it's one that I like to. Just I've read it three or four times every single year. I want to get more of those handles, and the one of the biggest handles is is intent and impact, and it sounds, it sounds like this you know, uh, the my intent in, in not coming to we'll just use this as an example and not coming to a circuit meeting is because, um, I, I don't know that I get a lot of and this is sin in me. I don't know that I get a lot of value in that, but I know the impact upon you is that our relationship is not strong you don't know me, you don't know my congregation and therefore you caricature who we are.
Speaker 2:And this goes. This goes both ways, both to the hyper hyper high church guy or the contemporary guy and I don't know you as well as I could, so please forgive me one. And then, hey, can we go grab coffee, lunch, beer, whatever, and and get to know one another more deeply. If that doesn't take place, there are different charges out in our church body right now. There's different accusations that take place. We control on one another in the online spaces without putting the best construction on things, and it's really, really not helpful to our witness together. So you're exactly right, travis, it has to start with pastors and leaders taking responsibility, connecting at the circuit level and then telling stories. Hey, have you heard about what forums are supposed to be, what convocations are supposed to be? And this is where we need the district to kind of give the invitation, the expectation to circuit visitors to have the forums, to bring lay leaders to the table, to have the convocations in the off years where you can celebrate the mission work that's going on in your diverse context.
Speaker 2:I have to imagine that day could be a reality in all of our diverse I don't know, man, it seems to some like a pipe dream, but I'd like to live it out here in our East Valley context. And we have like a super circuit here. There's about 10 congregations that get together and we do get together. There's not one congregation in our circuit that isn't represented consistently. Maybe it's not every month but consistently in relationships.
Speaker 2:So that's a start and maybe now the start here in the East Valley brothers, if you're listening in the East Valley is for us to start to hey, maybe there's things we can share. Maybe we could put together our own Walther League for our kids to create that space. Maybe we could start to share leadership, development, best practices and even leaders across our circuit who are hey, who do you know? Hey, who do you know who's ready to go plant, who's ready to help with revitalization? Like there are certain opportunities that we could bring intention to, that could bring love and care in the diversity of our LCMS congregation. So anything, we're coming down the homestretch here. This has been super fun. Travis, you're a gift to the body of Christ.
Speaker 4:Maybe I'll close with this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, it's just fun. It's just fun to have these conversations. So, as you look at the story of Jesus, let's close with with Jesus. A very good place to start and close. He's been in the center point of this entire conversation by the way, what is your favorite Jesus story in the Bible, especially related to discipling the next generation, travis?
Speaker 4:I referenced it early on and I'll go back to it. It's really Jesus calling the disciples, because at that moment he changes everything and that's the idea that he chose them, which is first and foremost humbling, but also it gives identity, it gives purpose everything and that's the idea that he chose them, which is first and foremost humbling, but also it gives identity, it gives purpose, it gives direction and it gives new beginnings. And I think, within our culture, man, people who are not connected or have been disconnected from the church, those are the things that resonate with them more and more and more. And he didn't pick the guys that were the smartest, he didn't pick the guys that were the most connected. He didn't pick the guys that were the wealthiest Um, he just picked average Joes like us and uh, did extraordinary things because they were sold out to follow the spirit, because they learn how to discern and follow the spirit, um, by walking with Jesus for those many years. Um, and so that for me, is, is is my favorite Bible story.
Speaker 2:Love it. Love it, travis. Thanks for the generosity of time. If people want to connect with you and your ministry, how can they do so and pray for your? Your new new plant. That's awesome.
Speaker 4:Yeah, absolutely, travis, at groundbreakerslifecom. I tried to make it as long as possible. So, groundbreakers life it, you know, throw on some extra letters if you want to. It's fine, but that's probably the best way to get ahold of me. You know Facebook. I think I have an Instagram. My kids tell me I do. I have no idea and otherwise that'd be the best place to do it. And and one, one final thought to Tim, you and your vision casting towards the end.
Speaker 4:I think most of us, when we get together in those meetings, we have a tendency to talk about how things are going well within our church and it's not malicious, but it takes willing to come in and say I'm really struggling, or my family's really struggling, or I'm really hurting at this point and I need some brothers to just pray for me and care for me. That's really dangerous and it's really. It's really sketched sometimes because that can be used against you. But I think if we're going to break through some of the challenges, it's going to take that humility and someone to fall on the sword, so to speak, and say, yeah, things are going okay in the church, but personally I'm struggling with X, y or Z, or to publicly confess hey brother, I have said some things about you that have been caricatures, and I apologize, because the more I know you, the more I realize you are an absolute man of God and you are faithfully serving your people, and I cannot tell you enough how much I appreciate that. So, anyways, that's it, I'm done.
Speaker 2:You guys are amazing, by the way.
Speaker 4:Thank you for doing what you do on the podcast. It is fantastic being able to be tapped into that and learning from you guys, and so keep fighting the good fight.
Speaker 2:Hey, thanks for the encouragement. The reason I brought up the youth ministry conversation is that's something we're looking for help with right now, and it's not against any of our youth leaders per se, but that is one of our real-time struggles right now In a larger church blah, blah, blah. But how do we connect with the next gen? I'm really, really fascinated about what the Lord is, the Lord is doing, and I think I think the answer could be working together more consistently as the body of Christ.
Speaker 3:So go ahead, Jeff. We're in a season of build measure. Learn for that right now, and I appreciate all the insight that you brought into it. It was very helpful for us as we're thinking about this for our own ministry sake. Yeah, it was very helpful for us as we're thinking about this for our own ministry sake.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. So this is lead time. Sharing is caring, like, subscribe, comment, wherever it is you take in these conversations. And we're praying for a new day, not just for the LCMS but for her congregations, who are seeking to be faithful, confession oriented, but to go on mission to get all of God's kids back who are lost. It's a good day. Go and make it a great day. You're a blessing, travis. Good work, jack.
Speaker 1:God bless you guys. You've been listening to Lead Time, a podcast of the Unite Leadership Collective. The ULC's mission is to collaborate with the local church to discover, develop and deploy leaders through biblical Lutheran doctrine and innovative methods To partner with us in this gospel message. Subscribe to our channel, then go to theuniteleadershiporg to create your free login for exclusive material and resources and then to explore ways in which you can sponsor an episode. Thanks for listening and stay tuned for next week's episode.