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Embracing Grace: Transforming Church Leadership and Mission with Pastor Jason Scheler
What if your church work felt like a true calling rather than just a job? We had the pleasure of hosting Pastor Jason Scheler, who shares his journey from selfishness to servanthood and the powerful transformation that occurs when we embrace grace. Through heartfelt stories, Jason recounts the pivotal role that dedicated teachers and spiritual influences played in shaping his missionary heart, and he offers critical insights into the disconnect between career motivations and spiritual calling, particularly within the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. This episode promises to challenge and inspire with its exploration of being called to mission over comfort.
Leadership in the church is not without its challenges, especially when it comes to implementing change. Fear and conformity can often stifle creativity and innovation within faith communities. Our discussion focuses on the need for an adaptable approach to ministry, emphasizing emotional connections and authentic discipleship over mere knowledge acquisition. We also explore the potential of smaller, diverse church communities to effectively reach people in unconventional settings, challenging traditional church growth models and encouraging a more vibrant and inclusive approach to pastoral leadership.
From hosting beach services to cultivating online discipleship pathways, we delve into innovative discipleship systems designed to enhance community outreach and engagement. By shifting from traditional teaching methods to dynamic approaches like life groups and discovery Bible studies, we're fostering a culture of personal accountability and spiritual growth. With an emphasis on storytelling and the guidance of the Holy Spirit, we encourage believers to live out their faith boldly. This episode is packed with insights into empowering church leaders, embracing diversity, and engaging in courageous conversations to strengthen the mission of the church.
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Speaker 2:Tim allman here with jack cowberg pray. The joy of jesus is your strength, jack.
Speaker 3:How you doing man I am doing well, tim. How you doing, man? It's? Uh, it is right now, as we're speaking, reporting right now, the first of october, and it is expected to be 110 degrees in arizona oh man.
Speaker 2:Halaciously hot. But well, here's the thing, If anybody's watching on YouTube, I actually broke my hand yesterday.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I coach football and I hit one of our linemen, our DN, who was coming around the corner. I was running scout team offense and instead of going around me as I'm throwing one down the middle, he comes in front of me and ducks and I got a compraction fracture. Am I saying that right Compaction? Basically my index finger compaction. It went down into my joint and I got a compound fracture in my joint and in my knuckle. So I'm down. I can't hardly type or do much of anything. A lot of voice texting over the next six weeks is in line for me. But he said 50-50, do you need to get that? I'm like I'm not going under the knife man to put screws in my hand and he goes. Well, you're just probably going to have arthritis when you get in your 60s and 70s. So I'm like, well, that's just kind of how it goes.
Speaker 1:So if you see my, hand.
Speaker 2:that's what happened.
Speaker 2:I got a fractured hand, so man get in the hangout today you do it for the kids, whatever, and we're going to talk about the kids today. I get the privilege of introducing you listener to Pastor Jason Sheeler. He is a longtime DCE, a product of the DELTO program. Shout out to those who have went through distance education leading to ordination that no longer exists in the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. But this guy is on fire for the Lord, for mission for next gen. We spent the first 15 minutes just hearing a little bit of his story and you are going to be blessed today.
Speaker 2:So first off, let's talk mission Jason day. So first off, let's talk mission Jason. You've made some comments to us that you think that the LCMS, we may have some mission opportunities or we may be operating from a mission deficit. You shared some stories of doing some creative things to go on mission in the local church and sometimes having leaders that almost slap your hand when you do creative things to reach the lost. So I guess the opening question how did you develop? Just go back in your story and sometimes having leaders that almost slap your hand when you do creative things to reach the lost. So I guess the opening question how did you develop? Just go back in your story. How did you develop that kind of missionary heart, jason? Thanks for hanging with us on Lead Time brother.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I really think it's kind of like the Apostle Paul in a sense the more you know you're a sinner, the more you appreciate grace and what a precious gift it is and want to give it to others. And it goes back to like just calling. I think too many people in our body are in church work for a career, not a calling, and I feel like it's people take jobs for careers. I want to be close to my family, I want comfort, I want this. I feel like I hear a lot of entitlement benefits to calls instead of just like where's God really calling you? What does he uniquely do in your life? And you know, I just, I'm just so thankful that God reached out and touched me because I don't know, I know my personality would probably be in a bad place. I know I'd be really bad place.
Speaker 4:And I was discipled in a Lutheran school and I had a teacher who really lived out being a teacher and lived out. I mean his life was definitely a disciple and so vibrant and so different from everybody. I was at church. I mean I grew up in the family church, very traditional, very cold, very disconnected, one of the reasons why I never really saw myself as a pastor, because any pastor I met I didn't connect with. They were very introvert, intellectual, distant. Even in our confirmation classes, just an intellectual exercise and so. But you know, that person, that teacher, dan Flynn, discipled me.
Speaker 4:We had Bible studies as homes, we had retreats and other things and just at our Lutheran high school I mean it was in a time where there was just a spiritual movement going on the teachers were very focused on it, they were praying about it and I was. You know, there's several of us that are pastors now, several of us in ministry, and I think it's just the result that man, you had some people that were dedicated to the calling and to God and what they were doing and praying about it, and God just was moving and blessing it. And, uh, you know, I'm just grateful somebody that got intervened in my life and opened my eyes to it and it's like, yeah, I was going to be a Christian, but I mean care for others this way. No, I was more selfish. God took me from being selfish to be a servant and that's a big transformation of my life.
Speaker 3:It's huge huge transformation yeah um, I'm hanging on this phrase that you said this, uh, career over calling, and um, that that's something that concerns me quite a bit. And, um, I don't think it's 100 true, but I think it's at least partially true in our church body that this type of thing exists, that maybe people are working for the sake of job security and something that's considered you know, quote unquote a comfortable job and, of course, ministry is messy. I think even in maybe a comfortable call, there's a lot of difficulties that pastors are called into. Talk more about that when do you? You know, we're not about naming names here and shaming individuals, but let's just, maybe, from a systemic perspective, what are these observations that you're making?
Speaker 4:I think it's a lot about motivation. I think that need for security I think you hit the word security Instead of my security in the fact that my walk with God, that I really have this incredible security and peace, that I can walk into a chaos situation there's not many pastors willing to go into a chaos. They want to make sure that. We've been interviewing different pastors trying to get staff, know, grab, you know, get staff and it's always like what's your budget, how much money is it? What's the salary? I mean, these questions are more in a high on the forefront, I think, than it used to be To me.
Speaker 4:It used to be based so much more in prayer what am I getting called to, what am I about? And willing to take a risk and maybe go someplace where, yeah, not everything's there, because you need to come to build it. I've just heard that language a lot and you know people look, they go from this church and they're looking for a call at another church that's bigger, that has more money, more opportunity, and instead of saying, how do I maybe go to a church that's less and bring it up? That's less and bring it up, and so I feel like there's just been a lot of places that people are looking for something that's already baked instead of willing to do the work, to do the grinding. Yeah, churches have problems, but most of the problems are caused because they're so inward focused and they're so into survival and programmatic stuff and not into mission. Mission cures a lot of problems, which is amazing.
Speaker 3:Is this a theological issue or more of a cultural issue that you're seeing?
Speaker 4:That's a good question. It might be a little bit of both. I mean, part of the culture is we shifted that way? I mean if you look at people taking calls, a lot, I mean a lot of pastors are taking calls near their families. I mean that was not an opportunity before, that wasn't part of your consideration. So I guess what I see is you know, I see there's a mission of God, right and there's, you know, there's money, and then there's our preferences, and I'm feeling like it's the preferences and the money before the mission and I think we should be called to a mission, not a position.
Speaker 4:it's like I'm like you should go to this mission that might lead you to a position, but not, hey, I want to be in this position in my life. I think I should be leading this. That's where it's supposed to go. Yeah, fine, but what is the mission that you're really called to?
Speaker 2:So I'll speak of it. I'll speak of it in two different directions. There can be lazy and I would say are lazy pastors who kind of justify it, even theologically, saying I do Sunday Word and Sacrament ministry. I'm not trying to be uncharitable, but if that's your primary work, then you're primarily going to stay in your office. You're probably not going to engage in conflicted situations, not solely in the church but out in the culture. You're probably not going to be as concerned about felt needs because it's the spirit who does the work. And so, yeah, we can remain very, very internally focused. And then, if our comfort with conflict perspective is low which we know it is stress management is poor for leaders we end up masking our insecurity around conflicted situations with kind of a prideful aloofness to what's going on in the culture. And so, yeah, I think it is both theological for us in the LCMS and sociological.
Speaker 2:It, like ministry, has only gotten more complex and more difficult as the world and culture has changed, right, so are we creating? I'd love to get your take on this. Are we creating the culture in the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, where we're going after, intentionally, the most well-differentiod, where we're going after intentionally the most well-differentiated, courageous leaders that are in our churches. And I don't know, I don't know that we're casting a vision to see that and it is all about. It is all about calling, because it can't be about the other things of the world, because those things are being largely stripped away, because ministry is very, very hard.
Speaker 2:So I'm praying for the next generation of leaders to be the most like healthy, holistic heart, body, mind, spirit, and that the Holy Spirit would get a hold of their life and move them into a call to be a proclaimer of the word and that they would be I'm using well differentiated, because I'm reading a book right now that I've read a number of times by Edwin Friedman, called Failure of Nerve, and he's done work across cultures and he's found out he did, and he's actually departed now. He was a Jewish rabbi, uh, believe it or not, but he did work in churches and in synagogues and in corporate America and across cultures, and he, he found out that there's one thing that differentiates, uh, that crosses every single culture and context, and it's the ability for the leader to survive the inevitable sabotage when he tries to bring about change management. And can you survive the sabotage from inside which will inevitably come and I don't know that we've raised up the system right now to invite because it takes nerve, it takes courage to enter into that chaos.
Speaker 3:Fear can be overwhelming, right, Tim Fear and anxiety is remarkably overwhelming.
Speaker 2:So yeah, what are your thoughts there, jason Well?
Speaker 4:I think you hit the nail on the head, because I think there's a cultural thing about us conforming, us, normalizing, to be all the same. I mean my situation is there's not other contemporary churches around here and that's fine. I mean other guys are all high church, bless it, that's okay. But what it does is it says like you're not right and it keeps putting that message and it keeps attacking it. And I see young guys who go to STEM and have this, you and a lot of guys. I mean they're there because they were called, they really feel called.
Speaker 4:The problem is that seminary redefines that call as just doing word and sacrament and doing it right. And if we're always about this is what we do, we do it right. That creates a pride in mine, my heart, the heart. I believe that we're the right church, we have the right theology, we have everything right. If we were so right I mean like if God, if we're so right that God loves us more than we should have more people, I mean to me that seems like the equation we have in our head or if we have less, they will come yes.
Speaker 4:And if we have less, it's fine because we're pure Right. So I last is fine because we're pure right. So I feel like that is still working into our culture and there's this whole fear and security to step away from it. Like you know, then you're, you're just a, you know you're a lone ranger, stepping away from what is tried and true, and how do you know you're going to do it right and so it just it create, they try to create the security in question, like you don't have the ability to step out and be creative. I mean, like God couldn't use those gifts. This is only the right way.
Speaker 4:We got to stay with this very and I appreciate that we have a very objective theology approach. We're not looking at a subjective approach to these things and I don't want to get into emotionalism and all that At the same time. We don't learn anything without emotion. We are emotional beings and we're also unique beings and so we don't need to be robotic about our theology either. Because I watch kids, I mean I watch a pastor who was, I mean I was amazed that he taught his kids and they had everything memorized up and down of that catechism, could recite it. I mean they stole the old school and did the thing in front of the whole congregation and this was a family member and I was amazed.
Speaker 4:I was like, yeah, I'm not that good, I can't do that. But where are those kids today? They're not in the church. You can memorize everything, but if it's not hitting into the heart and you're not talking about real life or bringing that truth where it needs to be, then it's just knowledge and I feel like we're not understanding the full way of formation that we talk about. We don't understand the full thing of discipleship. We just think we're making students. You know, devil knows everything about God and yet he's rebellious. So it's not about studentship, it's about discipleship and that's the whole being not just a head. So that's what I get passionate about.
Speaker 3:How does Lutheran process Paul when he says I've become all things to all people so that by all means I may save some yeah.
Speaker 4:As long as they're German, I mean, I think we can say yes, I think we process it, we departmentalize it. That's what I first saw churches doing. It's like we can be all things, all people in some areas of our ministry, like maybe children's, maybe youth, maybe we can do an outreach event that's more contextual, but you don't touch worship, you don't touch some other things, and I feel like we're just stuck. You know, we're just riding this horse, we're doubling down on this horse and while it works in areas and it's vital in areas and it's good, it's not for everybody. And so you're just going to, you're going to reach that small group of people. You know, and and and again, we need, do we need?
Speaker 4:I love small churches. I mean, the world's filled with small churches. God's going to fill every nook and cranny. In fact, I want more small churches. I think we should have, you know, keep multiplying. It's low money. You can have a pastor over you know, a whole multitude of small churches, instead of trying to and not have just one pastor for each church. But you wouldn't need a full ordained pastor and you could run multiple small churches and that's part of our vision. You know, we're not going to wear the shortages there. We've got to keep training, equip and let people lead small churches amongst, and will be a whole network of small churches going every nook and cranny where the gospel is not there and where light needs to be shown. And so we're just trying to like, ok, where can we go? In? A restaurant or a beach or a bar or whatever that we can. We can start a church and we've been invited to places.
Speaker 4:And so we're just saying, hey, we're not going to follow the traditional avenue where we're all fighting over 15% of the people that are Christian, the population that go to church. Maybe 40% declare they're Christian, but only 15% go to church on a given weekend. And so here's all these churches fighting over 15%. Who's looking about the other 60%? Right, and how much energy is given to them? And so we're saying, how can we shift our energy there? How can we be a different church that's focused out there? And yet, you know, but yeah, still have a mature, which we call a dream disciple. Here's the things we want of our dream disciples. This is what we're raising up in our church, if we're successful, so they can go out. But who's fighting for those people? Who's the advocate for those people. That's what bothers me. We're fighting for our people.
Speaker 3:Another question is how much freedom do we have to show hospitality to people with different backgrounds than us, right To make them feel welcomed, to honor that they have their own context, their own background and that they also need to hear the gospel right and receive word and sacrament? And one setting doesn't necessarily create the right environment that a person from a different background is used to right. So I'm just going to throw this out here We've got a very thriving contemporary worship expression here and a thriving traditional expression here. There's a lot of people that in that traditional setting that is the right setting for them to be in the right mental place to hear the gospel. And there's other people with different backgrounds where a stage with a band on it is the right setting for them to hear the gospel Right. That's just their background. This is a more common, this is becoming a more common expression of worship for people and it's normative for them. So we bring the word and sacrament to that space, Right.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and I don't want to be about style as much, because I think both styles have issues in them where it's too much a man in either style. I mean, we just simplified it, we've pared it down. And one reason we just pared it down is because I did all the other things in our church plant with, like I was telling you, with drama, with videos that we produced every week and in the band, and we were doing this high production worship. And then I came down here and I had none of those gifts. We didn't have any money. So I'm like we can't do any of this.
Speaker 4:And I was banging my head on a whiteboard saying God, what are we going to do? And God said stop trying to plant the church in your head. Plant the church I'm going to put in your heart. And so that's what started us on a different path. Okay, god, what is it that you want to do in my heart? That you're doing here differently, that you're stretching me to trust you? And that's where we simplified. And then we went to Tell the story.
Speaker 2:Yeah, tell the story about the micro church movement or smaller church movement that you're looking to start in your context right now, because I think there's a lot of gold in them there hills right now. Small is beautiful. Small is where people can be known. If we have a leadership development kind of posture that moves from evangelism into discipleship, like this is how the it's not like we're anti-big at all and hopefully, you know, in time small things become larger. More people are attracted to whatever it is that we're contextually offering around Word and Sacrament. But I think the day is far gone for us to pit large church versus small church. We need to complement one another. So say more about your small church model there, jason.
Speaker 4:Yeah, our small church model is really going where people live, work and play and learn and really trying to bring church to them, to the people who are disconnected. I mean, people come to the beach, they're disconnected, they try to disconnect from their normal life. But we're human and what do we do? We just go to a different place and connect to the same stuff that we were all messed up with before, and so our hope is that we really connect to Jesus. We want to awaken our hearts to Jesus, and so that's that's landed onto a beach service that's laying it, and then we were invited to an oyster bar. We've been on another beaches and we're going to another beach, just coming up, and then we have our own building. It's not a traditional building, but that's a God story to how we got this building here. But they're all. They're all communities that fluctuate. I mean, our communities fluctuate like um, some of them fluctuate between 60 and 120. Our beach goes anywhere from you know, probably 70, and then easter's like almost 3 000. So and we just go wide and then our online is huge. So, uh, that's kind of our global group, and so we're Online is huge. So that's kind of our global group, and so we're adjusting everything to really be online so it can always be facilitated in a micro group. So any our people are being raised up that they can say I brought my friend to church or there's somebody, come, we partner up, they're going to be able to go through the stuff online and they'll disciple them, and then I'll just meet with them and then they'll become members and then we move on to the next step and so we have a laid out pathway of discipleship and that builds that dream disciple that we talked about, that to fulfill the mission that we can send them back out, and so, yeah, and then we're trying to create that process so it's not just for people that are here, but it's for people that aren't here.
Speaker 4:So we have people in Dallas that have churches in their home and they just gather and they worship online with us, and so we're saying, how do we equip them? We're glad that they're gathering or we're glad that people watch it online. That's great. They found something here that they didn't find before. They got connected to Jesus in a meaningful way and are being fed, and okay. But how could they go beyond that? I don't want to. I'm not just happy with that. We want to develop you. If this is really where you're plugging in. You don't have another church home. How do we help you be the church where you're at? And so it might be a house churches and you know. So we teach them like where do you live, learn and play, who are the people you know, who you can invite in and build those relationships with, and so we're not looking. So yeah, obviously it's not easy to measure and stuff like that, but we're just kind of just keep sowing the gospel. Let's just saturate the gospel and get it in. All the different looks.
Speaker 3:How do?
Speaker 4:you resource those online expressions. We resource it. What do you?
Speaker 3:mean Like is it like a pre-recorded content? Is it a live stream? No, it's bad.
Speaker 4:We do not have the quality. We've been focusing on quality. Again, we didn't have those. We're just starting to get.
Speaker 4:We put more resources into trying to video those, but I don't have all the techie guns down here. In fact we've had people that shy away from tech so much so I can't get too complicated or my volunteers stop, and we just got to a place where we could do more post-production. But again, I don't want to be, I don't want to take on production because I can't handle, I don't have the bandwidth to handle so much production, and I guess that's where I, that's where I'm just trusting God. It's like God, you know, I see everybody does really great production, slick, it's really professional level. I don't have those guns and I just trust you're going to use it and you've been using it and it's rough, it's real, it's a little raw.
Speaker 4:Sometimes the sound goes in and out and I feel sorry for those people that are. You know, but we're on the beach and we've we've been trying our heads off trying to figure out how to get more bandwidth down there. We try antennas, we tried all sorts of stuff that we can kind of legally do and we just can't. We're limited how much wi-fi we have down there. So if the wi-fi goes out or we get a bunch of other people who say, oh, I like to service, I'm going to, I'm going to do a live feed too. Now we're competing, or it's a large tourist time and we're all competing on this bandwidth. I mean our signal can get pretty weak. We've had our phones burn up because of the sun. I mean we've gone through a lot of challenges, but it's our main thing. I mean, even though we do a recording in our 98 campus people want to see the beach.
Speaker 3:They want to see that service. Is there still a preference to see the live service happening in person? Is that what you're seeing?
Speaker 4:Yeah, yes, absolutely, that's what's so kind of cool. You go to the beach, but the beach is a little different every time you go. You know, we just had the storms, we lost a bunch of beach, and you know. But you know, just watch the sun come up and as the day arrives, the wildlife comes by. I mean it's just a whole different thing.
Speaker 4:And then you, just now, you're out there and what's so cool is that we meet people that either had no idea what church is and stop and get engaged to people that were praying, walking, reading scripture, and they are hearing me preach and are going that's what I was just talking about and they just, you know, they're just like. It's just amazing how God lines that up. He brings people who are just walking the beach, had no idea we were there and you know they're maybe praying and thinking about something or they're struggling with something. I mean, we had guys that were totally burnt out. They spent the night on the beach which you're not allowed to do and they were like we set up, they were like 10 feet behind us but they were totally passed out. So we start to service and they start hearing music and they kind of sit up and uh, and they're like somebody must have a radio, and I don't know what they were thinking. And then they turn around and realize, oh, there's like 120 people singing behind me and their worship going on.
Speaker 4:I forgot to tell you, when he first woke up he went back into the beer case and peeled out a beer and started drinking a beer. And you know the morning one and the chaser. And he turns around and they get up and they start walking away and they stopped and they stayed the whole service and it was about giving yeah and so, um, one of our people be lying over to him, talk to him. And they brought him over to me and, uh, they started a business and they were burnt out and they came down to florida on the way down. They got a ticket and they're like, hey, we got to save money.
Speaker 4:So we came down to Florida on the way down, they got a ticket and they're like, hey, we got to save money, so we're going to sleep on the beach to save money because we haven't got this ticket. And the guy goes, none of that matters now and he reaches into his pocket and pulls out $100. I mean, just crumbled money. He goes here's my offering. I mean, god just moved in his heart. It was so amazing, so we just you see these things happening each weekend. It's just amazing when you're out there and the restaurant, we're outside of it, and people just come that never planned on coming. Watch God draw them.
Speaker 2:Very simple, I mean that appears to be what we're supposed to do. I'm getting a major echo right now, jack, anytime you and I talk. Anyway, jason, you're not echoing, so we're going to turn it back to you here really quick. You talked about systems. What are the systems that you're trying to implement right now? That multiply disciples in your context, jason, because you were saying that we don't normally learn systems, thinking theory, et cetera at the seminary. So, yeah, what's been really helpful for you on the systems front?
Speaker 4:Our outreach system, getting the word out, has been very helpful. We, you know, for our size church, we have, like, in the last couple of quarters, we have over 5,000 people hitting our website and with a 96% engagement rate and so they are spending a lot of time there and there's not that much there and we actually just launched a new one and just updated it and, like I said, it was good. It wasn't that great. I was surprised and we've been holding that. But our outreach systems of getting out in the community and serving the community have been very effective. Like how many events we're going to have a year to build awareness? How are we going to follow up to those events and do little things?
Speaker 4:This last year, actually last year and a half, we had to deal with some inward stuff, systems like our structure systems and decision systems, but our big system that we're doing is more of our whole discipleship system. That's the one we just spent tons of time on saying what does that dream disciple look like? What are we doing to help people get there? What is critical to get there? And so it's not just like, hey, we have life groups, but what's really going on in those life groups? We do semester-based life groups and so they're based on the teachings. So we go through a book of the Bible, usually for one semester, and since the people we have I mean I have 12 lifelong Lutherans here, the rest of the people are all from other different backgrounds, everything else and so I've been rolling in, like the second semester, doing a part of the catechism, like we'll do Lord's Prayer, we've done Apostles, creed and commandments and just kind of. But so they study what we preach in our life groups.
Speaker 4:But we want to more now of moving life groups into more of a um, still going off the the same stuff we're preaching about, but doing more of a discovery approach and and and getting away from a curriculum and saying, hey, I want you to use this discovery person, I want you to learn these questions, I want to raise level accountability. I want to hey, I want you to use this discovery approach, I want you to learn these questions. I want to raise level accountability. I want to see how and encourage you to be sharing it and how you come back to the group. The group's helping you disciple and we're making that move more and so everybody learns that kind of concept. Those questions get ingrained in how they can personally study.
Speaker 4:But also then we can make transition then to go micro groups in the summer. So now you've gathered twice. Now go gather in the summer, where everybody's schedules are weird, but go disciple three people and you're going to walk them through the gospel and these are the questions you're going to use. And so we're leaning to keep life groups, but just use groups in different fashions, same formats, but then get smaller to get more intense in discipleship. And that's why we want to bring people into membership in small group, in a micro group kind of situation, so they learn the format and they realize it. And this is the format we're going to disciple in and it's going to be using online with somebody personally, with you, and use that curriculum and launch. That's going to be the way we're going to just all the way through. And so we take the traditional training.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so that way it's accessible for everybody and then we're spreading out discipleship to everybody in our church. So everybody's got to learn it's not going to be just a pastor whenever he shows up and can do it, which is kind of, was the format we inherited and like this doesn't work. My schedule is too crazy. We are Monday. Our Sunday morning is way too crazy to run around from three sites and then say, hey, by the way, those who worship at 8, come back at 1230 or 1 o'clock and then I'll do a class and we'll serve you lunch.
Speaker 4:And, by the way, I just did three services around to three different places and now I'm going to teach class for a couple hours and you know it's not fun. It's not my best, not my best and and and again it tends to be a little bit more big picture porn, a little picture, not to me. Life on life, discipleship. I don't want you just to know these truths or know about our church or be. I want you to know this community and be that, have that DNA and hold it, not just say, oh, I did that, I did this class time.
Speaker 2:Which is good it not just say, oh, I did that, I did this class time which you mentioned, good, no, yeah, you mentioned discover bible study or discovery bible study. Yeah, could you define that? For people I know this is a it's kind of a growing trend for these certain questions to lead towards spiritual conversations that can be duplicated it for a variety of different folks. So talk about Discover Bible Studies. Yeah, discover.
Speaker 4:Bible Studies. You can use it for your personal anytime you gather, but you know part of the context you're gathering in which I think which is greater is you know you got in a love context. I mean you got to do that. You can do it one on one. So when you get with other people, I mean it's pretty short in that. You have a serious love and trust context. So that's where discipleship really flourishes. But you let the text, let the Holy Spirit be the teacher. The text is the Bible. Let's just keep the Bible the Bible, because if you're following a curriculum, you're following somebody else's thoughts and you know it's not saying it's bad, but there's times it limits and it makes people again. I got to fill in the blank. I got to answer this question. Well, maybe God has something else for you in this text that you're missing because you're so concerned about this. And so you go through the questions of like what does it say about God, father, son, holy Spirit? What does it say who he is, what he does? What is the text communicating about that? What does the text talk about me and the world around me? So it's really almost like so what's our condition? And then, what's it called me to do, like I've been listening to, like this word, this word is shaping me. So we want to have God shaped lives by his word. I mean that was like a Luther's core, like let the word of God lead people. And that's what I think is. I think we've fallen down flat as a church, that we have traditions that lead people, we have Christian memories that lead people. I mean I guess somebody's come out of this book called Junk Drawer Theology and I think that's what we got, whatever we kind of captured from here that we liked. We have some emotional connection with the junk drawer it's not right from the word, and so we really want the word to shape people and lead them. And so you get into the word and then what's it call you to do? And then who's it calling you to? Is there somebody that needs to know that you need to share this story with? Like you know, god gave you a nugget and you're praying about it. But God gives you nuggets. It's, like you know, apostle Paul was transformed, called by God not just to be a believer but to go tell others, and so there's things that God puts in your heart that's for you, only for you for your growth. But there's things God's teaching you that's for others, and so we always say learn, return. So who are you learning from and who are you teaching? Who are you returning to? And so what are you returning? What you're beginning pouring into others. And so we're always looking for those mentoring relationships. We're looking for opportunities to share what God's put on our lives, because one of the things we really believe that a disciple is is a vibrant follower, like they're living in the presence of God, they're living off the word of God.
Speaker 4:No-transcript, the bible's good. I'm like I'm not throwing a bible away, but don't make it your crutch or your excuse. You don't have to know all this. He didn't say. You know, lean on the bible and walk out there, trust and lean on the holy spirit, who will give you the words to speak. Now we want to be in a word, because the Holy Spirit's in a word and it feeds us and it can help us and we'll know it and He'll keep us in that framework where we won't say stuff that's out of the box. But my goodness, if we're just saying, if I measure myself to the Bible, I'm going to be so much in fear and secure, fear insecure. That's what we do, right, pastors? Oh, you know the bible? I don't. That's, that's terrible excuse. And so, like I found, like you know, people walked in faith with god, please, god did great things without knowing this whole thing, so you don't have to know everything. You just got to be walking with him.
Speaker 2:And if you're walking, with him, he will equip you. Yes, yes, amen. Well, this gets to the power of story. Yeah Right, it was the story that was written down, obviously, the story of God's work in the world in the Old Testament, israel's rebellion, obviously, the word becoming flesh in the person of Jesus, his life, death, resurrection, ascension, the sending of the Holy Spirit, the birth of the church that mobilized the message of Christ out to Jew and Gentile, went into the messiness, the chaos of character that's out of line with the Holy Spirit.
Speaker 2:You have the Apostle Paul, kind of threading that needle of justification to sanctification, the new life as we walk it out with peace, with great perseverance, through suffering, through trial, trusting, having faith in the work of God, and then the audacity that he would work then through us, through the church, and then the courage to go into all of these, even hostile contexts, to bring the message of Jesus. And so it really is that simple. And then you have the New Testament, which is the living it out, and then Paul saying reactively to what the Holy Spirit was already doing in the church Okay, we need to reign it in this way. We can't live like the Gentiles do, we can't live in the flesh. You've been crucified with Christ, and so he's reacting to what the Holy Spirit is already doing.
Speaker 2:And he's a great, great leader who continued to fuel the faith of the early church. And it appears, as you look at, say Ephesians, you've got all of these respective roles, offices, under the office of holy ministry.
Speaker 2:He has to remind them over and over again that my call is to equip you to talk the things of God and to live the way of Jesus, always pointing back to what Jesus has done. This is the new way that we've been called into as the church which crosses all of these cultural contexts. So, yeah, I'm with you. I think it's all about the story that we tell, and then, today, our pastor's telling amazing stories of God at work in the world. That is the word of God which is living and active at work. Like are we telling those stories? And training people to have Jesus eyes on, holy Spirit filters on, to see God at work and to always be ready to give a testimony to the one who's claimed you as his own? So, yeah, I'm just doubling down on what you said. We can't get so rote, you know. I do believe, though, that we should memorize scripture.
Speaker 4:I do believe the word of God should be.
Speaker 2:I don't hear you saying that but, it's just a balancing statement that you're kind of giving to give freedom. What I hear is more freedom to the people of God. Go ahead, Jason.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I think that's what you're saying. There's a tension. I'm trying to say we got to live in attention. We're not throwing the Bible out, we're relying, we're using it, we're memorizing it, we want to know it, but we're not so leaned on this and so dependent upon this that we can't move forward. I mean, it's like Paul says man like you got to be freed by the grace of God and we feel like there's. If we're just like looking at the Bible, just sometimes we get it's a studentship. There's no grace in there. It feels like man, if I mess up this scripture, I mess up talking to somebody, I'm doomed. You know this kind of fear and I always say, man, if you mess it up, god's big enough to fix it. You know, if you actually said something to the witness wrong, god will fix it. It's that important.
Speaker 3:But like this, I mean this tension. Like you said, paul, to take on all the law of the Jews either, you don't have to become this religious person. And so I think there is a tension. That's in the word that we walk. Yeah, and there is a benefit for having a theological tradition like Lutheranism. Right, we have this, we have this understanding of the law and the gospel, and so you can evaluate scripture through the lens of law and gospel, and you know, kind of the way that Luther summarizes things. You know, I am a sinner, god is my justifier and that's ultimately what the Bible is telling us. And so how do we hear that story over and, over and over again being preached in scripture and then internalizing that so that I can plagiarize it with my own words to somebody else, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, anything more to say there, jason.
Speaker 4:No, I think you, I think you hit it. I just I feel like we don't release our people enough into and trust them with the ministry and we're also too busy filling positions, and, and that's part of like. And we're also too busy filling positions, Um, and, and that's part of like. And we, we have that tension here where you, how much structure do you need, and what structure do you need, and what kind of things, what kind of positions can lay people have? And how can you have those positions that you can really mobilize a church? And you know, at the heart of that, I mean, I just dream of a movement, uh, you know, and that people are just multiplying and sharing, and right now it's a pretty big battle. But you know, God didn't say save the world. He just, you know, save one. You know, do for one what you would wish you could do for the world.
Speaker 2:Do for one, you know. Amen. I'm so glad you're in our tribe, brother. We need more Jason Sheilers in our church. And let's just cast vision. What do you hope the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod looks like a decade from now or so? What are we known for as the church body, jason, what would be your heart's?
Speaker 4:cry oh, I wish we were like we were. We were the most outreaching church there was in the past and we were on the cross at one time. I mean we weren't just going by boats and babies, but we were out there in the world discipling people. I mean we were the people that embraced the foreigners. And you know, I love the fact we have a heritage of Christian education. I mean I'm a product of an incredible blessed place of Christian education and my heart just beats wishing that man. More teachers got it and more schools and churches got it. They understand the opportunity, the privilege they have to be in kids' lives five days a week, week. What does that mean? They got that much time with kids that change lives, um and to to lead them in the lord. And maybe they don't show up in the church numbers. Who cares? It's the kingdom. I mean I wish we were a church known like yeah, I love, I don't throw away our theology. We got this incredible theology. I mean I was asked to plant several non-anomous and I just love our church body. I really love it and I love our theology.
Speaker 4:I'm like I would be lying to the people to say I'm a non-anomous because I'm a Lutheran and I don't have a problem with that. It's just not the first thing I want to be known about, because people don't even understand what Lutheran is. Lutheran is Lutheran out here is a cult, a club. I mean. It just doesn't. People don't know, and so we need to be known as this church that is just so passionate about Jesus and his love for others and that leads to love for others. But it's truth. It's just biblical truth. We're not going to be swayed by the culture and we're not going to change the truth, and so that should give us incredible confidence to move forward, no matter what's going on, because we know that truth and as it places to set us free to go and be creative.
Speaker 4:I would love to see us be more of a creative church, and not just for creative sake, but creative for the sake of Christ, that man. We're reaching people in new places that have not been reached. We've gone back into cities. We've gone back into nooks and crannies. We've gone. You know we're doing a lot of things, at least the last time I noticed. Our LCMS is celebrating a lot of things overseas, and that's great that we can be more global, but I want to celebrate new things in America and get back to being the church that's on mission. I want to see that mission spirit in America, not the institutionalized spirit that we've kind of grown into, which is maybe part of our life cycle, part of the demands of a big programmatic system. But I like for us to get back. I mean our church started with 12 churches that were on mission, just trying to come together to be better and help support each other. I mean, if that's that simple, the Senate come together to help support each other, be better. Why can't we be back?
Speaker 3:I think getting back is about really reclaiming the identity of evangelical. Claiming the identity of evangelical Like what does it mean for a Lutheran to be evangelical? First and foremost, to boldly claim that identity for ourselves, with the understanding that that means to be absolutely enamored and captivated by the gospel. And then, if that's true for us, then we would want to, like just so desperately, eagerly yearn that every single other person would have that as well. Right, and that we would go through, we would be creative to get that to people. We would say, you know, uh, this truth, this transformative identity, takes precedence over everything, and we'd be willing to do anything was a short of sinning to make sure that people get it right. And that should be what defines us above everything. Honestly.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I think that Tim was saying, to go back to a late moment, the staff is equipping. I feel like we shifted way to get staff to do, do, do and not equip and we've delegated the authority that's given to us to the staff to do everything. We need staff, don't get me wrong. But even like with Lutheran schools, lutheran schools are great, but then it became well, I don't have to teach faith in the home, I got a professional that does it for me. Instead of seeing this as a partnership, as someone coming alongside and, I think, the church at that time, there was a time the church was way too ready to take on the credit, to just justify their existence and to and, and to get that support. And so we took on the credit that we did everything and we wanted to do everything and and that and I mean I understand that I mean we want to validate our ministries ourselves sometimes, but that puts us in a bad relationship to move forward what we should be doing by equipping and giving away.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'll go back kind of closing comments here on systems theory Again, I'm reading this failure of nerve book, but on over and under functioning If you look at our staff, it appears or just leaders in general, our commission workers, and our call and ordain. We have over functioned for too long and we need to get back to a differentiated. Yeah, I'm here, I'm one guy among many, many guys, right, but I'm here as a partner with you. I'm here to equip you and tell stories about God at work in and through your lives and your various vocations.
Speaker 2:If we were able, you know, individually and then systemically, to have a movement of pastors, it really does start with pastors taking the first step to say I'm just one part of God's big plan here. That's a differentiating statement that does not take too much responsibility for the work of the church. And oh, by the way, I desperately need your partnership in the gospel. Use what the Apostle Paul says. You know that would get us back to a differentiated and connected perspective. I think the fear would be, though, that pastors would start to under function, or I've heard this phrase right that well, you're going to work yourself out of a job. Watch out, pastor, you're going to work yourself out of a job. Watch out, pastor You're going to work yourself out of a job. If you move from doer to developer, there is always more people who need that.
Speaker 2:Good great. It's about the mission of God.
Speaker 3:Wouldn't that be amazing that everybody in the church now can preach right and they don't need you.
Speaker 2:I don't think that's the end result though.
Speaker 2:I think that you become that much more necessary for leadership development when you take the lower position, when you move toward. I'm just one guy among many, the humble call. Actually the Lord elevates the humble, but everybody. There's so many things in a church that people think but they don't say Self-awareness pastor is doing. Oh my goodness, you know, do I need to work toward repentance because I have over-functioned in this community for a while? And when repentance takes place, when confession takes place Jack, you and I were just in a confessing conversation yesterday Every single time you confess your weakness, your struggle, the Holy Spirit and God's people, the church, draw nearer to you. You gain trust rather than lose it when you choose the humble journey. So I guess the closing comment for me, from the top of top, from President Harrison on down, could we stop over-functioning for the body of Christ? So that, harrison on down, could we stop over functioning for the body of christ so that we could be an equipping, equipping church body.
Speaker 4:jason, closing comments brother, yeah, I think that the one thing that you brought up to hit my head hard. When you're talking about it's also about the ability to embrace diversity. You know I was thinking about you talking about a football team analogy and I just think you know I call ourselves, we're special teams. You know we're the ones we're special teams. You know we're the ones that are out there doing things different, crazy, running hard, wild and you know, maybe not always thought of as that significant, but we also can change the whole game because you can experiment and do different things and raise people up. There's other people are just always playing defense very staunch, that's their thing. And then there's the others, who's you know the offense, so you know it's kind of like I just like that's we got all of it. We're all going to have every different team in the body of the church and it's not say, hey, we don't need you, we need you. Like you know, I'm glad we got people that study stuff to no end to be the guy that's going to study that to the nth degree, but I'm glad you do and I love that. You're a resource in our church body.
Speaker 4:And so I feel like we just don't embrace that diversity of our church body, the body of Christ, and allow for that diversity to happen, where people you know, like you are a unique person, you know that's been gifted and called by God, and like, what is he doing in your life and and, and how does that pull out in your ministry? Pastor is such a generic term. There's all kinds of pastors and yet we try to put everybody in this little hole of being a pastor. And so what is your real strength, what's your real sweet spot? And then gather the saints around you and spread it out and do your thing and give away the other stuff and equip people. We just don't allow for that diversity and I think that stifles the church and doesn't allow that church to go out. And so, and then we put all this pressure on ourselves and we make ourselves feel more insecure because we know we can't do everything and I stink at stuff. And so I'm just like, look, I'm not good at this, so, guys, you got to help I can't do these things. Look, I'm not good at this, so, guys, you got to help I can't do these things. I'm terrible at these things. Like I can do a couple of things well, and you guys notice what I do well and I'm pretty sure you notice what I don't. So thank you for not beating me up. Help Come alongside and so I think the LCMS, like I said earlier, like it's always.
Speaker 4:Billy Graham says a sleeping giant. I still think it's a sleeping giant. I think we have incredible opportunity to make an incredible impact in the world and we just got to get out of ourselves and let God be God and run through us and get back into that mission. And when we make that a priority, doors open up. You see things you never saw before. Opportunities happen. I mean, you can't work yourself at a job because there's always somebody new you're developing or you know that person's developing somebody else and they're coming back to you for coaching. Now I mean, it just goes on, it just changes.
Speaker 4:And I just hear so many guys say you know, I just don't want to be the leader, I don't want to be the cruise ship director. They say, and I'm like somebody's got to lead the boat. You know, god put you there, somebody's got to lead. Well, if your leadership's not you, fine. Then make it clear that there's some lay leader who's going to carry that and that's okay. I mean, I'm glad you're great at pastoral care and one-on-one evangelism or whatever. You just got to find a role, I mean, but there's so many gifts required in church. You just got to say this is just what I am and so this is the church I'd be best fitted for and find that place. I feel we got people in wrong places and all that kind of stuff, and part of that's careerism and part of that's finding our comfort spot to hide out.
Speaker 4:So be free. I'm sorry.
Speaker 2:No, you're good, baby, you're good. This has been so much fun. I got a role. How can people connect with you, though, if, uh, if, they'd like to? Yeah.
Speaker 4:Hope on the beachcom. My email is simple Pastor Jason at hope on the beachcom, uh, love to connect with you and social media and stuff like that. Yeah, love to hear your stories. Share more stories what God's doing we. We've just been severely blessed. There's a lot of great God stories have been happening and let's share them.
Speaker 2:Let's share them. This is lead time. He may have just frozen up as we close. Hey, Jack, I'm the special teams coordinator at Gilbert Christian High School, Nice, and special teams can in fact win games.
Speaker 1:That's right To be sure.
Speaker 2:We got an onside kick scheduled for this upcoming week and it's so, so good. So Jason has been hanging with us and I think he popped off. This is lead time, though we're going to continue to have hopefully, courageous conversations, and if you have a diverse opinion, if you're in a different context and your view of what it looks like for the church to be healthy differs from what we said or Jason said, we'd love to have you on on lead time. Just email me at tallman at cglchurchorg tallman at cglchurchorg and at cglchurchorg. Talman at cglchurchorg and we'll put you right at the top of the list. It's a good day. Go and make it a great day. Wonderful work, jack. Thanks Jason, awesome, god bless.
Speaker 1:You've been listening to Lead Time, a podcast of the Unite Leadership Collective. The ULC's mission is to collaborate with the local church to discover, develop doctrine and innovative methods To partner with us in this gospel message. Subscribe to our channel, then go to theuniteleadershiporg to create your free login for exclusive material and resources and then to explore ways in which you can sponsor an episode. Thanks for listening and stay tuned for next week's episode.