Lead Time
Lead Time
Curious about How Rural Churches can Thrive? with Pastors Adam Finney & Mike Omtvedt
Discover how a former corporate leader brought his expertise into the world of pastoral ministry with Pastor Mike Omtvedt's inspiring journey. Transitioning from the business world to leading congregations at Hosanna Lutheran Church, Pastor Mike shares his story of utilizing corporate skills to ignite growth and connection within smaller communities. Joined by Pastor Adam Finney, they explore the transformative power of adaptability, from urban Portland to rural settings, and highlight the importance of building genuine relationships tailored to each congregation's unique identity.
Curious about how rural churches can thrive? Pastor Mike challenges conventional beliefs by highlighting success stories such as St. Peter's Church, where collaboration and shared mission have led to revitalization. Hear about innovative strategies like collaborative sermon writing and discipleship, which are breaking down barriers and uniting churches with diverse backgrounds. This episode promises to reshape your understanding of church growth, emphasizing the spirit of humility, trust, and joy as catalysts for community transformation.
Get ready to explore the creative potential within church communities through collaboration. We dive into how past sermon series and community engagement initiatives have enriched lives, from hosting parties to sensory experiences that draw people in. The episode also touches on the significance of leveraging technology like Zoom and Google Docs to bridge geographical gaps, ensuring that even distant congregations can participate in shared missions. By focusing on love, collaboration, and open communication, churches can shift from a mindset of limitations to one of endless possibilities, transforming both themselves and the communities they serve.
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Speaker 2:Welcome to Lead Time, tim Allman here. Jack Kalberg has the day off today. I pray you're leaning into a fun conversation that I get to have with two brothers in Christ that just getting to know, but I heard their story and we're like this story has to be told. First I'm going to introduce you to Pastor Michael Umtevet. He is an SMP pastor, finished in 2017. Before that, he had 20 years as a corporate leader, corporate trainer. I love when leaders in the church say here am I, send me, and all of those skills found in corporate America can be applied. Those partnership, collaboration skills in corporate America can be applied to the local church.
Speaker 2:He now is an associate pastor at Hosanna Lutheran Church. He serves the congregation as a part of the caregiving ministry praise God as well as walking with smaller congregations to help them navigate through challenging and the difficulties in our ever-changing culture. We're not against culture, though. We're very, very much for people who are lost in need of the gospel of Jesus Christ. And he says his highest priority has always been one of relationships, stating that people don't care what you know until they know how much you care. I love that. Michael so good. And then Michael's going to introduce his friend Adam Finney for our three-part conversation today. It's going to be great, michael. How are you doing, brother?
Speaker 3:I am doing well, and yourself.
Speaker 2:Oh man, life is better than I deserve, so, so good. So tell the story of your ministry and then your desire to see partnership happen, specifically in partnership with smaller churches.
Speaker 3:Outstanding. So I have always had a passion for the church. I actually grew up in corporate world, was blessed in corporate world and a long story made short, god brought me to the church side of things as a kid. I was always going to be a pastor and so have been blessed now both in corporate world and pastoral ministry, and certainly corporate world has prepared me for what I'm doing today. I've always had a passion for the revitalization of the church.
Speaker 3:The mission of Hosanna has always been one of connecting people to Jesus, and so that led to a relationship with a couple smaller churches one in Vernon Center, which Pastor Adam Finney now leads and so that partnership is a bit different than the partnership that we would develop with Winnebago. And I think one thing that's important to understand is there is not a one size fits all approach to ministry. And both Vernon Center and Winnebago, while they are similar, certainly the paths of ministry that those two ministries are taking are different and it's based on the community that they serve and the people that are a part of that congregation. And so what the story kind of began? We were approached by the elders of Vernon Center. They had been losing discipleship, and so one of the elders made. The comment is why don't we just go and ask the question of Hosanna? How is it that they did ministry? Because they certainly were not always the size that they were, and so that opened a doorway.
Speaker 3:I received a call.
Speaker 3:I said we'd love to talk to you about ministry, and so they came in with the intention, believing that they were going to be a site of Hosanna and that we would partner in ministry together that method.
Speaker 3:But as I talked with the elders, I learned very quickly they believed they had to become a site in order for Hosanna to start walking with them. And when we assured them, why can't we just help you become the strongest church you can be in Vernon Center? That opened up a whole conversation, and so that's what led to the opening of a partnership that would last a little over a year. At that time the church now had been on a good growth. It was started by the pastor prior to me, and we simply sped up the process by which he had started, and that led to a relationship with Pastor Finney, who knew one of our other associate pastors at Hosanna and, when we met and talked with him, knew that he would be a perfect fit for what God was doing there at Hosanna and when we met and talked with him, knew that he would be a perfect fit for what God was doing there at Vernon Center.
Speaker 2:Man, that's an amazing story. Hosanna, a slightly larger congregation, is that correct, michael?
Speaker 3:We are, yeah, we're a congregation a little over 6,700. We have been blessed in ministry over 6,700. We have been blessed in ministry and that I think you know. It's that mission of connecting people to Jesus that led us to the relationship with them. When we were approached by Vernon Center, they asked why would a church like you even work with us if we weren't a site and we could point to our mission? Our mission is simply connecting people to Jesus and if we can come alongside you and help you do that same thing, that fulfills our mission and the mission of the church.
Speaker 2:What I love about the story is it's it's seated in the gospel, getting the gospel into as many ears and hearts as possible, and it's it's a posture of building relationship rather than manipulating the relationship toward a respective end. I applaud the Hosanna community for what the Holy Spirit is currently doing. So tell Adam thanks for hanging with us, brother. Tell a little bit of the story. You've been there and partnering, connected since 2017. Thanks for hanging with us today, brother.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I would have never thought I'd be at a rural church. Uh, my first call was at a rural church in Missouri. Uh, but I originally grew up in Portland, oregon, and uh, when I went to seminary, uh, first call, and then I thought, uh, I don't know if this is for me, but I love the people. It was just the setting wasn't quite right. And then I took a call to Northern Illinois District, kind of the Chicago suburbs there, and ministry was okay, you know, but just kind of rolling through things, not really pushing because feeling that I didn't want to step ahead of the people. I wanted to lead them, but not, you know, pushing where they really didn't want to step ahead of the people I wanted to lead them, but not, you know, pushing where they really didn't want to want to go.
Speaker 4:Then my friend Adam Parvey and I were in PLI together and he said, would you ever think of being a pastor in rural Minnesota? And I said, no, chicago is cold enough for me, and isn't that where little house on the Prairie is based? And I saw those winters, you know. So, uh, and then, uh, I had a phone call with the leaders here and that's really what got it going. I just heard and felt a different spirit. And then my wife, who is a chiropractor, said I'm really not interested in going to a rural area. I like our life, I like what we're doing. But, yes, I agree, if we're really going to be serving people, we need to be all about Jesus and loving wherever we are placed. And she said why don't you go up and have a talk with him? I came up here and it was just a different spirit.
Speaker 4:The church was community centered. They were creative. What can we do to love people? What can we do to just make worship and I don't want to say acceptable, but more more joyful? Just have a different spirit about noise is fine, don't shut up the kids, don't you know? But also we're in it together. So it's relationship centered rather than we're going to do what we want to do and who cares about the other people in town? And from then on it's just been a journey.
Speaker 4:I thought COVID was really going to hamper it or hunker us down. They just kept on rolling. How can we worship outside? How can we do drive-by worship? I mean, that's really what we did. They were very adaptable. There's very little that I suggested that they said no to, which me as a leader, as a pastor, I'm a little worried about at times, but it's really been a great partnership here, first with the church, but also with Hosanna always has our back. They had her back from the start and it was how can we help? Even to the point now that Pastor Dennis Hyden you may recognize that name, but he approached my wife and said what would it take for you to work here? Now my wife is on staff there, so it's really it works out great, because then I get to go have lunch with my wife once or twice a week and of course, then I get to see this beautiful face that you're seeing here.
Speaker 4:Michael, you know who Mike has this spirit that just about anybody who meets him knows that he's a great encourager. Um, he loves people. Uh, he has a tireless energy about him. I wish I could work as hard as Mike, but I just I go. I think I'm good. Mike's like Nope, there's one more person that needs a visit. There's one more. You know, it's just one more person. Uh and uh, we.
Speaker 4:We approach things slightly differently, but yet we both have the same goal of we both believe that God's kingdom is big enough that we're not going to compete. It's more of we want to see more people know, know Jesus, uh, receive his grace. Uh, that's that's how I approach things Grace first. I know Mike's the same way and we just all seem to work together and it's a beautiful thing. I mean, I can't. I mean, you know this, how many churches you know that just don't want to work together? And yet we're? Oh, how can we help this church? How can we help another church? We're even trying now to reach out to another church. It's, there's some bumps, but we know that God's going to, god's spirit is going to work.
Speaker 2:This makes me more excited than you can possibly imagine. I've been praying for stories like this in the LCMS for so long. The traits and characteristics of pastors who collaborate in mission that was my doctorate and what we found out is that a lot of pastors have passive traits, we're imbalanced, passively, and then when stress comes with COVID et cetera, we respond passive, aggressively, we hunker down, we compete, our pride is hiding our radical insecurity and we just have to name that and then build relationships of trust and care and like there can be a better way to do it the Jesus way. We can be one church in a region and that's not just the name, that's like the guts of how we support and encourage and build one another up and tell the stories of what God is doing. There has to be a better way and you're living that better way right now.
Speaker 2:Mike, you said before we hit play that it is a lie that rural churches cannot grow because St Peter's is in a community of 300 people worshiping 130, 140 people. That is unbelievable. Like those stories need to be told and we can take the best of what maybe a larger church has to offer, maybe some systems and discipleship kind of strategy etc. And it can just be offered with an open hand to a number of different churches and we're just better. We're just better together. So anything more to say about that myth that rural can't grow, that they're all leaving there, everybody's leaving, so we just have to resign ourselves to the fact the church is going to regress as well. It's a lie. Satan wants us to believe that lie too, michael.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's. You're right on, Tim, and I think we know as a Senate that we have certainly experienced some of the decline of the church, and I have learned that, no, it doesn't have to be that way. When we work together, when we collaborate together and we help carry each other's burdens, it's a beautiful thing, and I think one of the keys to making that all happen starts with the humility of both churches. When Vernon Center approached us, we made clear listen, we've never done anything like this, but we are certainly willing to walk together with you on this journey, and we're both probably going to make some mistakes along the way and as long as we're willing to show each other some grace, as long as we're willing to try some new things that maybe haven't been tried before, I think we'll be fine. And so the humility of the healthy church or the larger church is just as critical as the humility of the smaller church.
Speaker 3:And so that was proved to be true in both situations with Vernon and Winnebago.
Speaker 4:Well, and it's a, so I'm a circuit visitor now, which I never wanted to be, and so I meet with the rest of them and all I hear about is someone sheep stealing, which I hate that term. And yet most of the people who have been coming, at least to St Peter's they weren't going anywhere else. They had maybe a pseudo church background growing up, but a lot of them just fell away for whatever reasons and and a lot of these people have very well, I don't want to say rough stories, but they've had some things going on in their life and, uh, they just feel welcomed and grace. And I know the same thing is going on in Winnebago. But guess what?
Speaker 4:Hosanna has that huge spirit about them that come as you are, we just want to love on you and how we work together. I mean, it's just a beautiful thing just to see the dip I got. I know half of our members would never go to Hosanna. They just that's not, that's not for them, but yet they still love them. How can we support them? How can we? You know, it's just a different worship style. It's just, you know, whatever Uh and uh, it's just great how we can all work together.
Speaker 2:So good, adam, so good. So let's get a little bit more tangible. What is it? Because I think a lot of times we're so prone to go to brand you know we got to take the name or whatever. We've experienced a lot of joy and partnership in our context here in the Phoenix Valley of churches working together with collaborative sermon writing, valley of churches working together with collaborative sermon writing. I just got done with a two-day retreat and there were, gosh, six different preaching stations that are going to be using three different Christ Greenfield, a couple smaller of those communities, but then three other congregations with a different name, and so we can work together with collaborative sermon.
Speaker 2:And I'll tell you what. That's one of the most invigorating experiences where we're respectful of the church calendar, right, but during the Pentecost season we can maybe speak to culture and things that are going on in our respective context in our kind of wider circuit area. So that's one way, kind of the rubber hits the road for us. But what are some other ways? You mentioned discipleship. Let's get a little bit more tangible on what that partnership looks like. What are you sharing specifically?
Speaker 3:Yeah. So when Hosanna came alongside the church, the first thing that I would say, more than anything that gets established, is that environment of joy again. And when a church is struggling, usually they slip into what I would call a survival mentality and that's a way different way of operating than an environment of joy. And so one of the things that, quickly, we've done is just share joy, the idea that, hey, we are glad to be here with you, and it happens in the simple things that you do. It's the hug at the door, it's the high fives with the children, it's just being with people, it's meeting them where they are at. And so one of the things that Hosanna, I think, brought in both those environments was just that seed of joy again and it moved them from that mentality that, hey, maybe we can do this, and here's a church that's willing to walk alongside us to make it happen.
Speaker 3:I've always said this that while the message that we share never changes, the method by which we share that message will change, and that's why it's so important that it starts with the relationships with the community that you are in. There is no one size fits all, and I think that's a mentality that we got to get away from. I remember one of the elders at Winnebago. When we stepped in, they said, well, can we just do everything that Hosanna does here? And I said, no, it's not going to work because you're not Hosanna and Hosanna is not you. And so the important thing for us to do is to walk together, learn this who this community is, who it is you're trying to reach, and then how do we develop that ministry to meet the people where they are at, and so one it's established, that seed of joy.
Speaker 3:The second thing that I've always said is that we have to help them understand who they are.
Speaker 3:In other words, what is their identity, their identity within the community versus their identity of who they think they are within the church, and it's an easy thing to do. One of the questions I've learned when we've started, in these partnerships, to ask is simply this to the congregation how many of you would be excited to invite a neighbor here next week? And it's surprising how few hands really will go up. And so then that's when we begin to explore why is that? What is it that we're not doing as a church body? If it's all about relationships and it's all about people, how then do we connect with them, and so that's one other thing that we try, we've tried to bring them is help them understand who they are and who their community is, and then how do we bring those two closer together? And then the other thing is just a willingness to share the resources and talents you know it's, for instance, god has blessed Hosanna with a variety of talents within the, within the church body.
Speaker 2:So how can we come along, use those talents, not for just the good at what God is doing at Hosanna, but also at a Vernon Center or a Winnebago? So I would say it's those, go ahead, joy. I hear there just needs to be a culture shift right. There just needs to be an infusion of the love and joy and peace of jesus, the passion for proclaiming his gospel, really the hope. That is the way it is right now does not have to be the way it always is. And then who are we? We have to figure out our identity as baptized children of god, but then as a as a church, what do people say about us in the community? And when I hear you talking about would you invite folks Like maybe we start to use a net promoter? We use the net promoter score from one to 10. Nine and tens are the active promoters and you can start to assess your congregation. It doesn't matter the size of congregation. How excited are you to promote what God is doing? To invite your friend here?
Speaker 2:The Net Promoter Score is a wonderful tool. You could just Google it and find it. But then we're going to have an open hand. Everything we have is not ours. First it's God's, and then it's the wider churches, and so we're going to deploy resources as needed, but people as needed to partner with you wherever the gaps may be. That mentality is so fantastic, adam. Anything more to add about how St Peter's has evolved through all three of those things kind of taking place?
Speaker 4:Oh yeah, I mean, when you talk about sermon collaboration, I meet every week with actually they do it as a staff at Hosanna. They are six, six weeks out and we get together. It's for about 45 minutes or so and I attend that Also. The pastors get get together. There's six of us that we take a sermon series and just kind of get really the small. Okay, what is the one thing here? And then we take it in our own direction there and it's just the freedom to be creative. I can bounce ideas off.
Speaker 4:For instance, a couple of years ago we had a sermon series on get to know your neighbor and one of the things was throwing a party and the uh, it was just and so our members here, we turned the church, we had streamers, we had all kinds of things going on, simple things. Then the year before that, the sermon series was kind of about getting back to worship and welcoming and what are the ways that God welcomes us and is glad to see us. So what's one of the things that early in the morning when you wake up, other than coffee, that kind of is a welcoming thing bacon. So I had a couple of our high school girls. They were behind the kind of to the side, and they had bacon just crackling, you know an electric griddle, and people were going in going, are we going to have bacon instead of communion wafers? Ok, let's not take it that far here, but I mean it's just being a little bit. Okay, let's not take it that that that far here, but I mean it's just being a little bit creative. That's outside the box. We probably wouldn't have that in some churches but and at Hosanna probably wouldn't work. That'd probably be a little, you know, but it works in our setting and that's really. It's just the freedom to bounce ideas.
Speaker 4:In terms of Mike and I are struggling with how to do confirmation. Well, ideas in terms of Mike and I are struggling with how to do confirmation, well, guess who's also struggling with how to do that? Hosanna. So we get together, we talk about it. Okay, here's some things that maybe we've tried and this may not work. Well, can we, can I do it one way? But if I have parents who that doesn't work for them, can they go to another place? Yeah, so what you know? We're all one beautiful body. Yes, another place, yeah, so what you know, we're all one beautiful body. Yes, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yes, yes, oh, my gosh, you had me at bacon, adam, my mind is spiraling to man. I want bacon for lunch today. Anyway, the smell of bacon, the aroma of the Holy Spirit, to bring people, bring people into the presence of Christ and to enjoy just being with one another. You are living out what a circuit should be, and it actually is in our circuit, but no one ever reads about circuits at the end of the handbook. We never talk about it at Synod Convention, but I think it has the greatest potential to give hope, give joy, to dismiss the stereotypes that we have of the large church pastor or the small church pastor, or the contemporary or the traditional, blah, blah, blah. We all are in the same confession, right?
Speaker 2:And it's a beautiful confession, but our confession finds itself in various contexts, so can we become more contextually hospitable and say whatever Jesus has given to me is not just to me but for the, the wider church? We're living that here, you're living it and you're, and it would be just amazing if more circuits started to to operate like this, because I the thought. Let's just go back to sermon writing.
Speaker 2:Adam, remember the early days and Michael, you too, and maybe you've never experienced this, michael, because you've been at Hosanna like your entire ministry but I remember sitting in my office I'm like a year in and some weeks I'm preaching two times Cause we had kind of a community worship experience called the Table, and I just felt like I am, I'm empty Right, and that spurred two different things. One, I have to be a lifelong learner. I got to continue soaking in the word of God and I got to read really good books, old books, new books, whatever I got to. I got to continue to be a learner. And then, too, there's got to be a better way for us to develop content and it is, there is it's in community.
Speaker 2:Theology is best discussed in community. Imagine, like our circuit meetings we get together and, yeah, we should spend time in the Lutheran confessions and scripture, but you meet once a month. Imagine if more brothers were getting together week by week in our circuits of six. I mean how amazing, how, how creative would the ideas be? And then guess what would happen? Oh, trust would deepen love and care and respect for how you're going to communicate the Word of God in your context would be the result, and I have to believe that's. That's a possibility for us as as people of God today, and it doesn't have. If distance is an issue, hello, zoom, hello, just getting on these kinds of calls and having great, hello, google Docs, shared docs, etc. So, yeah, we can. We can do it better, michael. Anything to add to that brother?
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I think the important thing that I think about as we talk about that whole topic of getting brothers together, it's it's to allow that creativity, but it's to realize this Our LCMS teaching.
Speaker 3:We have a beautiful theology and, to be honest, we're very, very good at what I would call the left brain side of how we operate.
Speaker 3:In other words, that theology it's beautiful, but I think where our area of growth really comes in is the right side of the brain, which is the relational aspect of the church. And so we have this beautiful seed and we are putting it into what I would call a poor soil, because we've never taken any time to develop the soil of the right brain. And when we process things, we process everything right to left, and so it doesn't matter, the left side doesn't matter unless that relational side is there first. And so the area I think that we can grow and that's what partnerships offer, that's what collaboration offers is that relational aspect of the church. And I think that's where we can do more together is preparing the soil so that when the seed sets in, you get a full, a full effect. And I just think we've operated too much out of that left side and we focused all on this, which is not bad. The problem is, it doesn't do any good if you aren't, if you aren't connecting with the people. Yep man.
Speaker 2:Now, now, michael, you had me a brain science dude. This is so good, so good. I couldn't agree more. Yeah, adam, go ahead, follow up.
Speaker 4:No, mike is totally right. Uh well, hosanna's on a journey.
Speaker 4:They've got a lot of the uh, it's called life, life model, and it's joy. Um, I know I'm going to come off as blunt here, or I'm going to, you know, or I want to be grace, graceful, but how do I help them in a way in which is tangible, you know, and of course for me it's. I got to hang out with them. I probably spend way too much time at the local bar, but it's because I know that those people need to hear God's, god's grace, and I don't mean I'm there every night or some sometimes you're good at it, it's a whole month before I'm back there.
Speaker 4:But I also have the relationship with the fire department, with the city council, with those little things. I got in trouble during COVID because someone said pastor's walking around town way too much, we're a little worried. I didn't see that. I mean, I actually got upset with that and I said how else am I going to know how people are doing? We're not meeting, we're not. You know all these and that's what I feel pastors kind of miss, that the go to your people where they are at rather than expecting them to come to you. And I do it not just with the people in the community that I know are members of the church, but also those who I know that Jesus still loves. They just don't know it yet.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I think the church has changed dramatically in the sense of this.
Speaker 3:We were working with a small church just recently and as I was talking with them, we were talking about the importance of the seat of joy in the church, were talking about the importance of the seed of joy in the church, and one of their older members said to me Pastor, I'm going to be honest, I don't come to church because of the joy.
Speaker 3:I come to the church out of obedience. And I said you know, obedience is a beautiful thing, but if you have Jesus in your heart, how can you not live with joy? And all we're doing is allowing people to see the joy that comes in our relationship with Jesus Christ, when we understand the change that happens in our lives because of what Christ has done, how powerful of a thing that is, and that's a reason to celebrate with joy. And that's just a good example. We have a lot of churches, I think, that are locked in this mentality of it was about obedience, of coming to church, and now we're living in a culture where it requires the church to go out into the community. And that's the culture shock for us as the churches it used to be everybody came. Now we're having to go and meet people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, go ahead Adam.
Speaker 4:Well, we are in a well-churched area as a percentage. I mean, compared to Phoenix, compared to the community that I grew up in Portland, I mean they thought you were crazy just for being Christian. Here, it's, what brand of Christian are you? And yet, even then, I just see so much potential for growth and just yeah, and for people to be reintroduced to who Jesus is and how he loves them.
Speaker 2:This is so much fun to listen to this story and bring you know we should bring back the old parish model. In many respects I used to think early years in ministry it's like parish, that's a you know cause I'm I'm very, uh, progressive toward mission, right, I mean, god kind of hardwired me that way. But I think one of the strategic misses of late is to see a parish, as you know, that's just for the people who come to that church. No, the parish model is I'm a pastor for this community Like it should be very, very normal to see Adam walking around, uh, outside of outside of St Peter's, right. So, yeah, let's, uh, let's, let's create space for all different types of leaders to work with all different types of churches.
Speaker 2:And every church, not just every individual, has gifts to give and gifts to receive. And if we miss on, this is first Corinthians 13,. It's Paul is making this magnificent case. In 12, around the gifts of the body, um, and. And then in 13,. You can have all of your theology so tightly put together, but if you miss love, and really the love there, the agape love, it is synonymous with the emotion of joy, right? So, so good, and you guys have hit on that so powerfully today, so close, with three barriers that that could keep. Like you've heard these. Let's get really, really tangible and just bring what is in the dark into the light so that we can follow Jesus as we partner together. So three barriers that keep churches of all sizes from collaborating with one another. Michael or Adam.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I would. The first, I think it's the fear of the unknown, and it's fear of the potential change. What is this change going to look like? And so change.
Speaker 3:If there's one thing I learned in corporate world is people do not necessarily like change, and so how you go about change is an important thing. You know, I learned quickly with Vernon Center that their biggest fear was losing their identity of who they were. They, they wanted to be the best St Peter's Church they could be, but they thought they had to become something different in order for us to help them. And when they learned that we weren't going to expect them to become a site of Hosanna, it opened up doorways. And so for churches to understand that change is not a bad thing In corporate environment, it's necessary or you're falling behind. And so that's the same mentality I think we've got to work with the church.
Speaker 3:The second thing is the importance. It's the mindset of the church leaders and you know so for all of us to lay with humility out, you know, in our own ways. So the large church has to be humble and coming into the environment, because we won't have all the answers. And the same with the small church that are you going to be willing to try some things different? So I use, when I'm leading change, a lot of what I would call sunset change. In other words, let's try this for two months and then I'm going to talk with you and we're going to talk about how did that go? Did it accomplish what we were hoping? Do we want to go back to a way that it is, or is there something else? Maybe we need to try, but to give people that comfort level that OK, we can try this and and he's going to hear us and then I would just say it's never underestimate the importance of communicating the why.
Speaker 3:So many times that's where we make mistakes. We make change without communicating the why behind the change. But when we help people understand the why behind it, they are much more open now to letting that happen. And that's why it's so important that we focus first on the relationships to never come into a church and make change without first knowing the people and knowing the community. And so that's the number one thing I think we could do better, and without those barriers they are real. Um, the other thing that I have noticed is you have to understand the informal leadership as much as you do the formal leadership of a church body. It's recognizing both. And are those leadership, um, together, Um, and if they aren't, then we got to figure out. Why are they not on the same page? And how do we get them, uh, on the same page. And that's what will allow for the collaboration to take place and move, move forward.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Michael, you're so wise, so good, adam.
Speaker 4:I would just want to add one more thing. We're trying to work with our church just to the South of us, and the word I, or the phrase that I heard was we've always been told what we can't do. Yeah, and it was never what we can do. Or here's some possibilities, and I feel like that's a huge barrier when you get in that mindset well, we can't do that, we can't do this, we can't do Rather than okay, this is how we are as LCMS Lutherans. Yes, here's the box that we need to be careful of, but also, well, but there's many things that we can do. You know, there's so many things that we can do, and that's just a spirit, and it's a big hoop, though that you got to jump, jump through, and once you see them go go through it, then it's oh, we never thought this was okay, but now we get it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, and just to tag onto that, I saw that very much in Winnebago. When I came in the question, I asked the elders is tell me who you think you are as a church? And so they said well, we're a loving congregation where you know we love people. And what I had done prior to that meeting is I had went uptown and I being I was new, I had this option I just asked to tell her that was behind one of the grocery stores and I said Can you tell me a little bit about this church? I'm kind of new to the area. Can you tell me a little bit about them? And she said well, they kind of keep to their own, they don't really intermingle with the community. And so when I came to the elders meeting that night, the elders shared with me who they thought they were. And I said now can I share with you what I heard in the community? And I said here's the deal. You're right, you are a loving congregation.
Speaker 3:The problem is it's within these walls. So how do we take that loving thing that you have for people and move it into the community? And that's when we started doing things like inviting, for instance, the military groups to use our space for their services and that they would do like memorial day or um, veterans day. It's when we allowed the school next door to do their christmas cantatas and their christmas uh worships at the church and use that space. And so all we did is we moved the love that they did. Have we just moved it now into the community? And we opened the doors to the community. One question I will ask is if these doors were to close tomorrow, how would it affect the community that you're in? And many times, many churches would say well, it probably wouldn't phase them. Well, there's the problem right there. The deal is is how do we make this church, or how do we help this church, become the center of the community so that, if it were gone, it is missed?
Speaker 2:This entire conversation has been a clarion call for collaboration and the days are far too short for us to compete, to compare, to live in fear, to live in scarcity, to compare, to live in fear, to live in scarcity. The day is here in the Lutheran Church, missouri Synod, with our amazing confession of faith, to build bridges of understanding, care and love, no matter what the size, no matter what the personality of the congregation and or the leaders are, and to say every person has a gift to give, a gift to receive. And we can run tests. This is what I love about what you were sharing, mike, is we can run tests. You called it the sunset change. We can build, measure, learn, we can try things for two or three. It's not going to radically change the entire character of our congregation. It's just going to be a test to move the gospel out into the community and we're going to assess if it worked and if not, we're going to try something else and we're going to be okay.
Speaker 2:So there's a mindset of the leader. Is it expansive? Are we starting with the why, always communicating the why? And then to your point, adam, it's that optimistic, hope-filled attitude of the leader, whatever it takes for you, pastor, leader, to live with the joy of Jesus, the optimism of his return, and then the fire, the passion to mobilize, multiply disciples, to reach lost people with the gospel, whatever the holy habits are that you need to move out of scarcity, out of fear, and invite the Holy Spirit to move you into joy and into openness. I guess that's it. I mean it is joy opens me up.
Speaker 2:Joy, says. The only thing I hold with a closed fist is the one who holds me in the palm of his hand and that's by grace, through faith in Jesus. He's got us. But now everything else, all the ideas that I have, I'm holding them with an open hand to let the Holy spirit in community do what only the Holy spirit can do, which is to seek and save all of his kids. He's on a mission. He wants to get all of his kids. He's on a mission. He wants to get all of his kids back and he needs all types of churches to to reach, reach them. This has been so much fun, mike Adam. Any kind of closing comments?
Speaker 4:No, just uh, uh, what you were saying about the joy in Jesus, St Peter's actually about two years ago started planning joy like lighted signs during Christmas time around town, I mean, and it was cold and we had to really pound them into the ground and I mean, and it wasn't my idea at all, like they were and they've been for years having a Advent parade where they start off the season and you can just see the community like see that joy and it's cold but people still come out because it brings us all together and that comes from a spirit of Jesus that's rolling through us.
Speaker 2:Absolutely Amen, Mike.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it is. When people work together to make a difference in the lives of those around them, it is a beautiful thing, and when people feel that they can bring something to add to the community, it creates that excitement and joy and, believe it or not, we are wired for joy. If you think of the birth of a new baby, what are they searching for? First, they're looking for people who give them joy.
Speaker 3:And it's what brings, it's what changes everything. And so when you work together, that's when joy can take place. But when we are so worried about change, when we are so worried about doing things exactly right, that's when we start to hinder that joy and the door gets closed. So to me, if we can start working together as a church body, and to me it's exciting what can be done, and we are in an era right now where, more than anything, it is needed and it is beautiful when it's happening.
Speaker 2:So listen, I don't know where you're at, whether you're listening in the car you're getting a workout in or wherever you're being sent. Today, our God is ascending God and go with this, go with this blessing. The Lord, bless you and keep you. The Lord make his face a face of joy and love to shine upon you and be gracious unto you. Lord, look upon you with his favor. He's proud of you, smiles over you and give you. Give you peace that fuels you for a joy filled mission. It's a good day. Go make it a great day. This is lead time and Mike and Adam fulfilled mission. It's a good day. Go make it a great day. This is lead time and Mike and Adam. This has been one of my favorite conversations. I get to talk to a lot of awesome people, but this story needs to be shared and multiplied. We'll be back next week with another episode of lead time. Thanks Mike, thanks Adam, thank you for blessing us.
Speaker 4:All right, thank you.
Speaker 1:You've been listening to lead time, a podcast of the unite leadership collective. The ULC's mission is to collaborate with the local church to discover, develop and deploy leaders through biblical Lutheran doctrine and innovative methods To partner with us in this gospel message. Subscribe to our channel, then go to theuniteleadershiporg to create your free login for exclusive material and resources and then to explore ways in which you can sponsor an episode. Thanks for listening and stay tuned for next week's episode.