Lead Time
Lead Time
Tim Ahlman Makes His Dad Cry - Insights from a Lifetime in Service with Pastor Dave Ahlman
Discover how to sustain joy throughout a lifetime in ministry with insights from my father, Pastor Dave Ahlman. Starting each day with scripture and prayer, Dave emphasizes the role of a pastor as a humble messenger of God's grace. Joy acts as a vital fuel for effective ministry, and this episode unveils the power of seeking Jesus' love and mercy in every sermon delivered. Together, we reflect on the profound impact of the Holy Spirit in fostering connections and spreading God's love within the community.
Our conversation takes a deeper turn as we share a pastor's early struggles in a small Nebraska parish, illustrating the importance of mentorship and supportive relationships. Learn about the resilience needed to manage internal conflicts within a congregation and the skills required to navigate anxious conversations. The narrative also explores retirement with purpose, as we discuss the transition from dreaming of golf to discovering fulfillment in podcasting and preaching. This chapter is a call to action for retirees to embrace their passions and continue serving in meaningful ways.
Finally, we explore the potential for church growth through addressing community needs and fostering genuine connections. Listen as we highlight the transformational journey of a small church in Colorado and the significant role of emerging leaders within the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. From the integration of doctrine and mission to the importance of engaging older generations, this episode offers a roadmap for church leadership and community engagement, underscoring the transformative power of faith and a mission-focused future.
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Speaker 2:Welcome to Lead Time, tim Allman here. Jack Kalberg is on vacation. Today I get to hang out with a person that has meant the world to me, who has brought me into the world by the grace of God, didn't take me out of the world and raised me to know who Jesus is and the joy of ministry. This is my dad, dave Allman. The one and only Dave Allman. How are you doing, daddy-o? Good son, how are you All right? I'm great.
Speaker 2:It's going to be outside of my hand still being broken. I know For those of you in podcasts that haven't heard, I broke my hand. I coach high school football, hit it on the helmet of a kid coming across the middle of defensive end. You're supposed to stay away from 43 year old coaches trying to throw the ball down the field. He did not and I hit my hand and I broke my. Uh, broke my hand in the middle of my.
Speaker 2:So I would I would covet prayers actually, as, uh, I'm going to see a hand specialist here soon. I may have to have surgery and it's right on my, it's right on my joint, um. So the guy says like you're pretty, you're pretty young and you were pretty young when you had had me, but he goes. You're going to have arthritis probably the rest of your life, and I'm like, oh, that sounds great, but anyway, let's set our mind on things above, where Christ is not on, not on things below like a broken digit. So let's start out with this question. Dad, you've been in ministry for a long period of time and what I highly respect about you is that it's easy to start well, it's harder to finish well, and finishing well looks like well, your marriage still being intact, people still enjoying being around you and for you still having joy to continue to serve. So what are three secrets to sustaining joy over the long term in ministry?
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's a great question, son. I think that and we've talked about this before, maybe in a previous podcast, but for me to stay in the Word, every morning, morning, when I get up in the morning, I open up the Word and I say Lord, speak to me. And to go through that ACTS thing, you know, acknowledging who Christ is, confessing our sin, thanking Him for His grace and asking Him to supply my daily needs. That's that my prayer rhythm is really important to me and so being entrenched in Scripture every day for a devotional time is really important. Secondly, to not take myself so seriously, because I realize I'm a fallible, error-prone, sinful, broken guy and I need Jesus' love and His mercy and grace desperately. And because of what Christ has done and because he set me free from sin and hell and death, I have great joy in knowing that and knowing that I'm a forgiven, redeemed child of God. And I think, son, I've talked to you about this before.
Speaker 3:I think sometimes, as pastors, we do, we do professionally, we do the sermon study, we studied the text, we put together our outline, we memorize it, but sometimes we forget to rejoice in the fact that we're loved, accepted, redeemed by Christ as well. We think about the people that we're going to be preaching to, how they need what we can offer, but I think sometimes we don't allow ourselves to be at the base of the cross and to accept that wonderful grace that God has given us as well. I heard one guy say what's a preacher supposed to do? And his main role is to tell one he's one beggar telling another beggar where to get food right. And the ground is level at the base of the cross, and so our role is to point people to Jesus, but secondarily to that, our role is to point ourselves to the love and acceptance and forgiveness of Christ as well is to point ourselves to the love and acceptance and forgiveness of Christ as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, that's the role of the Holy Spirit, right? Amen Is the joy, the joy giver, and joy is the fuel for the brain that leads us into deeper connection, first with God, the God who holds us in all things in the palm of his hand, and then joy for the people that he's placed around us, the friends, the family, the people in the congregation. Like my prayer right before preaching. I wonder what your kind of last thought is before you get ready to preach. For me, for years now, it's been just give me joy, give me joy, I love it. May that come through on my face, right, so that people would.
Speaker 2:This is a wild thing about leadership and pastoral ministry is that people look at you and I mean you're the under shepherd under the good big shepherd, right? And they want to see Jesus and they want to see the face, the kindness, the compassion, the care, the courage. You know, as we preach the law of Jesus, and if I'm entering into whatever the meeting or preaching experience is and I don't have joy, like they're going to notice it and it's going to lead them. This is the heavy calling of ministry, right, it's going to lead them further away from Jesus, and that's the last thing I want to do, right? I want people to see Jesus in and through me. Any response to that kind of pre-sermon prayer?
Speaker 3:Oh I love that, son. You've never told me that before. I just think that's pretty powerful. And I've got to admit, sometimes my preaching I'm so focused on my outline and so focused on memorizing everything because you and I both memorize our stuff that I kind of forget what you just said. And I just love what you just said.
Speaker 3:My main prayer before I get up in the pulpit is the prayer of John the Baptist Lord, you must increase and I must decrease. And very, very much dovetailing with what you just said, you know, I want people to see Jesus in me. I want the joy, radiance and splendor of Christ shine through me. I want to forget about myself and lift up his name. All those different kinds of things are so important and that dovetails with joy nicely too. I mean, that's the reason I have joy in ministry.
Speaker 3:And I want to talk one more thing, Timmy, real quickly, and that's the fact that we get to serve not only an awesome God, the only God, the triune God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, but we get to serve God's people and we love people both you and I do, and I am energized by being around people, so I get, when I get withdrawn or don't spend a lot of time with people because I'm semi-retired and so most of my time is spent here at home.
Speaker 3:Obviously, I do a podcast, but if I'm not out and about with people every day, it's easy for me to lose that joy, and I think sometimes, when we're going through difficult times, we isolate ourselves from people instead of being with people. And people encourage me, pray for me, lift me up, and I'm a people person, and so that helps me to sustain joy too and I've talked about another podcast with you. I have four or five guys that I connect with in a very personal way and they see the best in me and lift me up, and so I look forward to those times with those individuals and I know you're the same way, and that helps me to remain calibrated and focused as well.
Speaker 2:Well, what does Satan want to do, dad? He wants to steal, kill and destroy us. Amen. Steal life, steal the full life that Jesus wants us to live and steal our joy. And he's definitely coming after under shepherds, he's definitely coming after pastors. If he can get at us and take away our joy in him and then our joy in being in relationship with his people, that's his primary weapon. He wants to steal, kill and destroy the joy of Jesus.
Speaker 2:Anything more to say about how you maintain kind of an active? There's a vigilant posture that pastors have to take to kind of govern their mind. I was reading Colossians 3 today with our staff right before getting on here. But set your mind on things above, where Christ is, rather than setting your mind on things below. And there are so many kind of disappointing, discouraging things in ministry and it can feel like you're getting attacked from all different angles. You know whether it's the finances, with the disgruntled member group of people, or we're not reaching young people like we, like you can go down the laundry list of pessimistic reasons that just kind of give into despair. But that is not the, that's not the call of Jesus, right? So how do you actively maintain a vigilant posture against the work of Satan.
Speaker 3:I kind of already talked about it, but I really believe that Satan is so willing to destroy our ministry I mean, that's his number one goal is to destroy our ministry, make us despondent, make us want to quit and, as you know, there are so many pastors today who quit over despondency and the attacks of the evil one. So, again, just reiterating what I said before, I just got to be with people who believe in my ministry and when, down through the years, when I've been discouraged and overwhelmed and sometimes semi-depressed, I don't struggle with that and thanks be to God for that. I know many people who do. But when I'm feeling like overwhelmed and disappointed and distraught, I talk to someone who believes in what I'm doing. First and foremost, your mom. You know she's my main cheerleader. But I have a couple of people and you know them well. Kent Patton is a dear friend of mine. I also have this Baptist pastor that's a dear friend of mine who is so transparent with me and I with him and when I'm hurting I just pick up my phone and call him and thanks be to God, son.
Speaker 3:The pressures and I want to speak specifically to those who are still in the trenches full-time, like you and any other person who's still in full-time ministry.
Speaker 3:I'm semi-retired, so I do a podcast and I serve a church 15 to 20 hours a week, so I'm not necessarily in the trenches of ministry.
Speaker 3:I serve a small flock now compared to the 1,500 that I had before, so the pressures of retirement life do not even compare to the stuff that you're in right now. So I just encourage young men to spend time with the Lord, spend time with their families, make sure that you're a really good son at physical activity, you've got a lot of diversions, you love golf, you're coaching, all these different things, all these things that get us away from the pressures of ministry but, most importantly, to have a close walk with the Lord, close walk with your wife and a close walk with people that believe in your ministry. I don't spend a lot of time with negative people and I know you don't either and I don't give them a lot of time of day because they bring me down, and so I choose to pick people in my life who see the best in me, are positive and are a strong believer in Christ and can give me perspective and recalibrate my soul, and we need that in ministry.
Speaker 2:We do. You almost tapped out. You told this story as a young kid numerous times. You've probably told this story a hundred times. You like to tell stories multiple times, which is a great thing. I think all dads, most dads who have joy, have that gift to bring about these kind of formative stories. But you wanted to be a mailman about six months into your ministry there in Tobias, nebraska, because of internal conflict and all that. Tell the story of the elder, of the voters meeting and your young perspective, wow.
Speaker 3:Okay, yeah, so to kind of set that up.
Speaker 3:My dad, bless his heart, was very untransparent when it came to talking about the struggles of ministry. He only talked about the joys, which was great. And so I went into the ministry pastoral ministry and I heard stuff at the seminary but I really had no idea. And in my vicarage you know when you're on vicarage some people love you and you don't deal really with the pressures of ministry. So I got out in my first parish and there was a conflict between my head elder and his brother-in-law, who didn't like each other at all, and they were arguing about where a legion flag ought to go. And this happened all before I got there.
Speaker 3:So the sunday I'm there, they have a voters meeting. That afternoon, my first sunday, I'm ready to preach and my head elder comes into my office and he says and of course he's, he's chewing on tobacco, which a lot of people did in the early 80s, and he's got a spittoon with office. And he says and of course he's, he's chewing on tobacco, which a lot of people did in the early eighties, and he's got a spittoon with him. And he goes wow, reverend, how do you feel about that Legion flag issue we're going to be voting on today and I said well, I'm going to leave it up to the voters.
Speaker 2:He said did you really talk like that?
Speaker 1:Did you have that high a voice?
Speaker 2:You had that high, you were just nervous.
Speaker 3:I was intimidated, overwhelmed, way in over my head. I served a congregation of 300 people, 280 of which were in church every Sunday, and I was overwhelmed. I was in way over my head. So I told him. I said I'm going to, I'm going to leave it up to the voters. So that afternoon we had a voters meeting. Of course it was all men. This was back in the days when women didn't vote, especially in a small parish in Nebraska, and so it was horrible. I was called a Legion hater. You know I'm taking size blah, blah, blah. And really I didn't do that at all. And so at the end of the meeting I went home very depressed. Beth said what are you going to do? And I said I think I'm going to quit. And the next day I'm sitting in my office. So I've been in the ministry for one week, son. I'm sitting in my office and all of a sudden this guy drives by, he opens up this little box and puts these envelopes in it. And I said Beth, come in here, I've had a revelation. And so she comes in there and she says what's the revelation? I said I'm going to quit the ministry, I want to be a mailman. So anyway, it was through her encouragement.
Speaker 3:Pastor John Real bless his heart. He's now with the Lord Jesus and I don't know, son, if I I hope this was helpful. But he came to me about a week later and he said young man, have you baptized your first soul into the kingdom of God? Yet I said no. Have you counseled a couple that's struggling with their marriage and point them to the love of Jesus so that there's reconciliation and peace? And he said no.
Speaker 3:He said have you had your first confirmation class where you've taught these kids in the truths of God's word and then, with joy, confirmed them in the faith? Have you had that experience, yet no. Have you preached through Lent yet and led people to the cross and empty tomb of our Lord Jesus? I said no. He said well, you do all that. And after you've done all that, you can tell me that you want to quit the ministry. And I'll bet your bottom dollar that you won't want to. And he was right. There's such joy in serving God's people and that was one of those statements, one of those messages that you never forget. It changed the course of my life really, and I never really seriously considered quitting the ministry after that, even though I'd only been in the ministry for two weeks. Um, that was just what I needed to hear at just the right time.
Speaker 2:Hmm, well, praise God for pastors like John and those that hold up our hands, friends that come alongside us, because leadership is hard and pastoral leadership is because we're dealing with eternal things. Satan attacks us and often those, most of the time, those attacks are not external, they're internal. A book I'm reading right now, dad, called Failure of Nerve, is a leader's ability to resiliently survive sabotage, and sabotage will inevitably come. You had sabotage within the first week of being called certain names. I'm thinking like I wouldn't even know as a young kid what in the world is the Legion. I don't even know like the background of a Legion hater. I don't even know what this group's about. You know, but, yeah, you survive sabotage and what helps you survive, that is the care and comfort of Christ, your identity in Jesus and then kind brothers and sisters who hold your hands up and give you courage to walk through whatever this trial trial is.
Speaker 2:You know, one of my, one of my biggest concerns as I look at pastors is our inability to and are maybe not inability but a weak muscle toward anxious conversations, toward conflict. One of the biggest reasons I'm doing the podcast, been doing it now for years, is I've seen that trend of pastors. You either quit or your amygdala hijack takes place, your reptilian brain takes place and you either fight or you flee or you freeze. But we don't like engage it with with curiosity. You know one one thing I've cause every single day, dad, and maybe not every day, but multiple times a week I'm engaged in a conversation, not just podcasts, these are like the easiest thing I do but like real, real conversations with real people who have been hurt or the ministry has hurt in some way or their expectations were not met. And I guess over time I've built up this muscle like I'm not going to worry about it. I think this is what Jesus means Don't worry about tomorrow. I'm not going to worry about it. I think this is what Jesus means Don't worry about tomorrow. Right, I'm not going to worry about it until I have to worry, until I'm in that space.
Speaker 2:And so, like, how do we learn to? When I'm with this person, I'm going to give them 100% of my attention and care and empathy and listening and trying to problem solve, etc. But yet when I'm not with them, I release them and sometimes I even like physically open up my hands after kind of one of those harder, maybe toxic conversations. I'm going to open up my hands and I'm going to release them to Jesus and he's going to care for them way better than my worrying about them can. And that's the only way I can make it through, because if you start to pile up and a lot, you can get a God complex as a leader. I got to fix this and this and this and this right. It's just overwhelming. And you can see why leaders would tap out over time if they haven't built up that difficult conversation muscle right. But it is a skill that can be taught and should be learned by leaders, but I don't know that we're learning it as well as we could in the pastoral ministry, because it is. It is a challenging thing and people so here, last thing on this and I'll get your take but people look to you as the voice of Jesus, which is true, we get to proclaim God's word, but then they kind of want you to be Jesus and fix things that no human being can possibly possibly fix. So I'm speaking into this is all systems theory stuff here, dad, a little bit.
Speaker 2:Um, we, we often can have a failure of nerve. This is a book by edwin friedman. A failure of nerve, uh, to not sit through, wade through, be held by jesus, through inevitable difficult conversations. What's your take? How did you make it through a lot of that kind of because it wasn't like the leg Legion hater stuff? You, I remember hearing of difficult stuff and problems with you know, maybe staff or whoever else like you've waded through a lot of difficult stuff. How'd you do it?
Speaker 3:Man, that's a, that's a $10,000 question. So I mean, there's so much I could say about that. The Lord has given me the ability and I praise God for this to be able to just put that away and I know a lot of pastors can't do that but to simply put that away, give it to the Lord and move on to the next challenge. And it's not like I didn't lose down through the years, lose sleep over things. And it's not like I didn't lose down through the years, lose sleep over things. I mean, right now, you know, I'm in a little church and we double in attendance, you know, in the first couple years, which is great, but now we've plateaued. Well, you know, you can obsess over that son and it can rob you of joy. And I have to get back.
Speaker 3:I'm a very simple-minded person. I'm not a deep thinker, I'm a very simple-minded person and I find my identity in what God says about me. I'm a child of God. I'm loved, forgiven, accepted, redeemed. He loves me and that's enough. The grace of God is enough to bring us through.
Speaker 3:We can't solve everybody's problems One of the things and you've learned this, I think, well from me and I think you're much better at it than I am. But I really don't care what people think of me and my wife, your mom, would disagree with that, probably somewhat, but I really don't when people say things that criticize me. I've had some people say some horrible things about my preaching and whatnot. It bothers me for a while, but ultimately I'm not here to please other people, I'm here to please the one who made me and saved me through his son, and so I have to release those criticisms to the Lord and say you know, I don't really care what you think about me. Right, and I think oftentimes, as leaders, we allow people to dictate our mood based on how they feel about us or what our reputation is or what people think of us. Well, who really cares, honestly, if we're sound in Christ, if we're rooted in him, if we find our identity at the foot of the cross, none of that stuff really matters. And so people like James Dobson, chuck Swindoll, my favorite preacher son, I haven't told you this, but my favorite preacher is Andy Stanley, not Andy Stanley, charles Stanley. And Charles Stanley now is with the Lord Jesus, but he taught me a lot down through the years about that very thing. You can't please everybody and it really doesn't matter what people think.
Speaker 3:Another thing about Charles Stanley that I love, son, which you emulate as well, is he just gets up there, he studies the text all week, comes up with an outline and then just gets up there and talks. He doesn't read anything, right. He just gets up there and talks and talks about his relationship with Jesus and people's relationship with Jesus. I love that, and you know I'm bending into preaching here a little bit now but if you've studied a text and you're familiar with the text and you can have a conversation with your wife or a friend about the text, why can't you just get up and do the same thing with your congregation on a Sunday, instead of being so meaty to that manuscript and Charles Stanley was a prince at that, but also he went through a lot of conflict, even with his son, as you know, and had some difficult relationships that he had to deal with.
Speaker 3:But he was able to say my joy is in Christ, my foundation is him. I don't care what people think of me, Ultimately my identity is rooted in Jesus and I'm moving on. That's really helped me a lot down through the years.
Speaker 2:Amen. Hey, let's pivot a little bit and talk about retirement and how it's not in the Bible and how the Lord is fueling you for ministry in this season, especially doing your daily truth devotions. Let's talk about that a little bit. Talk about retirement a little bit. Yeah, why are you pumped about the topic of no retirement a little?
Speaker 3:bit. Yeah, why are you pumped about the topic of no retirement? Well and this is basic stuff what I'm about to tell you I've seen a lot of people who are in church. You know they're leaders in a church. I'm talking about lay people who, when they retire, they say, well, I really don't want to be on a board or committee, I really don't want to serve in the church anymore, I'm retired, I'm going to let the young people take over, right? And some of the most gifted people in a Christian congregation are those who are retired from their vocation now and have more time to dedicate to the Lord. And oftentimes, down through the years in my ministry, it was those people we needed the most. But because they said I'm done with that, I'm done with leadership, they kind of sat on the fence or sat in the grandstand and watched ministry.
Speaker 3:I think pastors can be tempted to do the very same thing. If indeed we understand the giftedness of Christ that he gives individuals, why in the world would we say in our retirement, I really don't want to preach anymore, I really don't want to serve people anymore? Now, I think I told you this story once in a different podcast, son, when I was at the seminary and I graduated in my early 20s, chuck Neutrabauer and I said when we retire, we're going to buy a house on a golf course and play golf every day. As I neared that, as I got in my 50s and early 60s, I said why in the world would I want to do that? Now? There's nothing wrong with golf. I still play it. I know you're a scratch golfer which is amazing, and I love golf, but I've been gifted by God to use my gifts to serve him, and I want to. My dad used to say I want to die with my boots on. Well, what he meant by that was I want to continue to use the gifts and talents that God's given me until he calls me home, because to do anything else, to do otherwise, I'd be a poor steward of the resources that God's given me. That's exactly the way I feel.
Speaker 3:The marvelous thing about retirement and those of you who are listening to me in your 60s and are contemplating retirement do the work of the Lord in the ministry that you want to do in retirement. All this stuff you're not gifted at that you don't like to do. You don't have to do, and I love doing a daily podcast. I wake up every day. I've been doing it for two and a half years now. I told your mom last night. I said I still love what I do. It is such a joy and a privilege to do it. And so I wake up every morning coming into this studio, and I do that because it fills my tank. Also, shepherding God's people and preaching God's word fills my tank. It's what God has gifted me to do.
Speaker 3:So I have found my niche doing the things in retirement that I'm good at. You know, son, in ministry, when you're a full-time pastor, you have to do things A that you're not very passionate about and B that you're not very gifted at. You just have to. Especially if you're in a small church, you're blessed to have a large staff where you can just delegate a lot of stuff and do the things that you're best at. That's the way I was in a church as well as I got into larger churches. But, man, for me in retirement, I've picked and chosen things that I'm gifted at, I'm passionate about, and I've left the rest behind at I'm passionate about and I've left the rest behind.
Speaker 2:Hey, it's so good. Retire equals expire.
Speaker 3:That's not expire, you know. So this is funny, son. There's this commercial where these two aunts are living with this young couple, right, they're staying there for a while and they're very detail-oriented, task-oriented and critical. And so this one aunt, like Aunt Bertha, looks in the refrigerator and pulls all this stuff out of the refrigerator that's expired, and she has a New York accent and she pulls it out and she goes expy it, expy it, expy it. Well, I think you know the Lord doesn't want us to expire, right, he wants us to retire, not looking past our expiration date, but saying I never want to reach an expiration date until the Lord calls me home.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I want to inspire people, not expire, right. I mean, my life is meant to be used for other people. And yeah, your shout out to the boomer generation. Boomers sometimes there can be critical things that are said about your generation. It's never too late to like, fully engage, rather than consuming, to contribute to the mission of Jesus.
Speaker 2:And all of the years that you've been leading in industry, et cetera, like could the Lord put another fire in your belly? And this is for women and for men to say I want to go deeper in my faith. This is what I'm experiencing right now. It's a revival of a number of older people saying man, there's a lot about Lutheran theology that I never knew, you know, and I just want to go deeper. And they're voraciously consuming it and a lot of them are moving into, you know, bivocational, co-vocational ministry.
Speaker 2:We got a guy Tim Unick is one of our, one of our vicars here that's serving an older congregation in Queen Valley, a seasonal congregation, you know, and I don't know. He's in his mid-sixties, something like that, but the dude is just on fire for Lutheran theology and preaching and teaching. Do we have space to cast vision for that generation of lay leaders? That's one of the biggest when I talk leadership development. I'm not going to go down that path entirely right now, but I don't know in the LCMS that we're casting that vision to engage that generation of of leader, cause they want to stay in their local congregation. Is there a way for them to get trained, deeply trained, and to get a degree so that they can continue to serve. That's the test that we're running here, and we're seeing just amazing, amazing results that the fields are ripe under the harvest in your generation, dad, I truly, truly believe it. What's your response to that?
Speaker 3:Well, just yes and amen. I mean, you're a catalyst, you're at the head of thinking outside the box to utilize and maximize the talents of God's people, especially people my age. It's an untapped resource. I think in a lot of congregations that we just kind of dismiss and we allow that statement well, I've done my time, I've served my time, it's time for me to watch ministry. I think you're the antithesis to that son in what you're doing at your church and I just praise God for that.
Speaker 3:You know what, son too, that comes to mind is because we've been through the hard knocks of life. People my age and have experienced just about everything you can experience, you know sicknesses, loss of loved ones, because most of the time our parents are already with the Lord. We've been through the trials and struggles of leadership many of us have. We just have a lot to offer to the next generation as we pass on the baton of leadership to them. And man, I just see that as such an untapped resource in local congregations. They just don't maximize the potential that's seated out there in the pews because so many of them have said I've retired from my work, I've retired from church too.
Speaker 1:We'll go to church.
Speaker 3:But you know, I surely don't want to get too involved.
Speaker 2:unfortunately, yeah, and or may they be kind of overwhelmed because of feeling inadequate. They're insecure about I could never do that or whatever. That's why I kind of like your preaching and a number of people you know you're accessible. I would hope that, like preaching and leading, they'd look at pastors and say you know what, if that doof can do it like I could be about this too right? You told me and this is more recent, but one of your, I guess, crosses was dyslexia. How did that impact your ministry? I mean, it takes you a little bit longer sometimes to learn and study and that could be a crutch or you could have a victim mentality. But obviously that's not been your story. Tell that if you're okay, comfortable telling the story with kind of learning struggles.
Speaker 3:Absolutely, son. I've always struggled with that and I'd have to study three or four times harder for tests in college and seminary than most people did. I would study eight to 10 to 12 hours for one test. Simply because of what you're talking about, I only read about 10 to 12 pages an hour, meaning I'm a slow reader because it takes me, because I get the words mixed up and because I have a hard time putting that together in my brain. It's just a function that I was born with and so, to compensate for that, I'm more of an audio learner than one who does a lot of reading.
Speaker 3:You're a prolific reader and I admire that in you, but for me, listening to podcasts, listening to you, listening to books your mom is incredible at that. That's how I've tried to compensate. I'm not a good reader and it's exhausting for me to read. Thanks be to God, I've got a bunch of commentaries, though, in preparation for my podcast that are A easy to read, that are short and concise, that are easily digestible, and then I can spew it out when I preach it or share it with God's people, so I've tried not to focus on it and use it as an excuse. I think a lot of times when people hear that about me, they're kind of amazed. Really, you struggle with that, but we all have our inadequacies, we all have our weaknesses, and I don't try to dwell on it or make people feel sorry for me about it. I rarely talk about it, but it's something that I've had to deal with all my life and the way I deal with it is just hey, do the best you can and leave the results to the Lord.
Speaker 2:So good. I'm proud of you, love you.
Speaker 3:I love you son.
Speaker 2:A couple closing questions here. Dad, this is awesome, your church right now, Mount Hope in Boulder. It's a smaller congregation and precious people. I'll let you brag on them a little bit, but they have big dreams for reaching their community with the gospel. I think there's a myth often that small churches don't have big, big dreams, and that's not what you're experiencing there at Mount Hope. Tell the Mount Hope story, Dad.
Speaker 3:Well this church had not, before I got there, had not confirmed any adults for 10 years in Boulder, colorado, which is right at the foot of Colorado University. And so when I got there, first of all, it's a very loving bunch of people, there's no problems. When I got there, first of all, it's a very loving bunch of people, there's no problems. I got there, there were about 30, 35 people in worship, but they love Jesus and their mission is get this son grow in Christ, share his love. It's about as good as it gets right, because it really covers two things. What am I about as a believer in Christ? I want to grow in my relationship with Jesus. And secondly, I'm about the Great Commission I want to share His love with as many people as possible. So, with that as their mission statement, when I got there, we basically said, okay, what are we going to do to get the gospel out? And so we've had two meetings now, congregational meetings, each with about 30, 35 people there. And we said, okay, we're going to strategize now how to reach our community with the love of Jesus. What are ideas that the Holy Spirit can generate amongst all of us here today to reach our community? And so we came up with these ideas, we put them on a whiteboard, then we voted and we're executing them now. Have all of them worked? No, have all of them been successful? No, but some of them have.
Speaker 3:We're ready to start a ministry called Celebrate Recovery at our church. We're going to be starting that in the fall. We're just starting a ministry called Grief Share, which again was part of our strategic plan. The average age of our congregation it's getting younger, but the average age of our congregation is probably still mid-60s, right, yeah, and we have some young couples now and they're helping to keep our congregation younger now and they're helping to keep our congregation younger. But, yeah, there's a bunch of old people who want to reach the community with the love of Jesus, realizing, oh my goodness, just a mile away from our church are 40,000 kids who need the love of Christ, and so we're starting a college and career ministry as well and, yeah, they want to do whatever they can. Son, and the number one thing I've noticed and this is why small groups in a large church like yours are so important, because everybody knows everybody at Mount Hope, and so when there's a visitor that comes, you know what people do.
Speaker 2:They go they just love on that person.
Speaker 3:They give all kinds of attention. We got a guy who's like in his 70s who carries a notebook every time there's a visitor and he gets their name, their phone number, where they work, where they live, what their background has been, and he memorizes it and then the next time they come to church he spits out all this stuff about who they are, what they've done, and they're amazed by that. It's that kind of care for people that I see, especially in a local small congregation. So a lot of times, having been in a larger church like yours and now I'm in the small church, there's a lot of advantages to a small church, especially when they love each other and they're Christ-centered. And, by the way, this is a church, believe it or not, that they have screens. We do contemporary worship Our praise team the average age of our praise team is probably 70, but they don't care and I don't either, and they're singing praises to our Lord.
Speaker 3:It's just if the Lord, if I could have had any place I wanted to settle in in my retirement. I could not have envisioned something any better than where I'm at, and that's a God thing too.
Speaker 2:And the cool thing about the story is you're not settling. I mean, yeah, you're engaged with them, but that congregation is not settling. They have big dreams. They have big dreams to grow. They do. They want to reach younger people. I mean, what you're keying in on now, on Grief Share and CR Celebrate Recovery is you're trying to meet felt needs in the community. Recovery is you're trying to meet felt needs in the community. This is so. If I could have one.
Speaker 2:It doesn't matter the size of the church, just have an eye for what is going on around you and try to be able to set a space. It's not going to be Sunday. That's not the front door, you know. I mean there. No offense to to your contemporary worship team, but that's probably not like if I'm looking for the best contemporary, there's no way they're coming to Mount Hope, right. So that's not offensive, it just is what it is. Worship is not the front door, like the felt needs are the front door. Actually, your website hopefully your website is decent. That's where people are going to go first before they interact with you. But in trying to meet those felt needs and build, build a relationship there, that is the bread and butter of growth for any size, any size church, any. Any response out of that? Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 3:Well, the felt need of people is to be loved and accepted, right Ultimately to hey, well, people know me here. I think of that cheers. You know everybody wants to go to a place where people know their name. I mean that's kind of the way our church is. Know, everybody wants to go to a place where people know their name. I mean, that's kind of the way our church is. And so when people, the number one felt need, I believe, is to be accepted by God and accepted by other people. So when people walk into our church, oh my goodness, they are so loving and accepting of new people and it makes them feel welcome.
Speaker 3:Now, do they always come back? No, sometimes they go to other places because of the worship. Yeah, our worship is not off the hook. And here's another thing as well, son. People have said I don't say this, you've said this. Other people have said this Wow, you're pretty good at preaching. Well, I don't come because of that. Our church is not. It's not because of my preaching or any of that. It's because of the love that people have for God and for one another. And you're right, understanding your community. Listen to this, son there's no Celebrate Recovery in Boulder, colorado, a town of 140,000 people and there's no.
Speaker 3:Celebrate Recovery. We're just launching it for the whole city of Boulder. I don't know about grief share. I'm not sure there's a grief share either. Boulder is. There's a reason they call it the People's Republic. It is a different place. For sure I've never seen so many coexist bumper stickers in all my life as there are in the bumpers of cars of Boulder. Colorado it is an eclectic place that needs Jesus desperately. Colorado it is an eclectic place that needs Jesus desperately and our little church is doing the best they can at reaching the love of Christ, and I think I've shared with you, with your listeners as well. I'm doing what I do best at that church. But we have a guy who has the gift of administration, who does all the administrative stuff that A I'm not pastored about and not gifted at, and so we complement each other very, very well. His name is Rod Ehlers and I just thank God for him.
Speaker 2:Hey, shout out to Rod raising up business executive pastor types. We need to do that in the LCMS, to be sure. So last question Dad, you and your dad and I we've given our lives to pastoring in the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. As we get 30,000 foot view here, you have multiple decades of experience. You've seen various trends and different kind of movements of God at both for good and for ill. So as you look at the LCMS, what trends are you noticing that alarm you and what trends excite you?
Speaker 3:CMS? What trends are you noticing that alarm you and what trends excite you? Well, probably the thing that alarms me most, son, is that we seem to have lost a mission mindset. I'm not talking about your church or mine or many other churches I know, but, generally speaking, a mission mindset that says we are here, we exist in this place not only to nurture the faith of those who are here, but to reach out with the gospel. I think don't get me wrong. I think doctrinal integrity is absolutely important. It's very important. I think we need to be faithful to the scriptures and the book of Concord and all that stuff, to have an unwavering devotion to the book of Concord for sure, and I don't know of any pastor that I know that isn't that way. But I don't think we should be so obsessed with doctrinal integrity that the mission mindset is lost, and that's what I see oftentimes in congregations in our Synod today, which is really, really unfortunate.
Speaker 3:What I'm excited about is the young leadership that the Lord is raising up in our Synod. People like you, like Zach Zender, like the guy who took my place at Peace Lutheran in Arvada, guy Roberts, people who really understand a mission mindset. I just am excited that the Synod. Now that people like me are retiring and dying off, we're passing the legacy of faith on to the next generation of leadership and I'm really excited about the young men in our Synod that God is raising up Scott Seidel oh my goodness, the guy has an IQ of 130, I think as well as you.
Speaker 3:You guys are just so articulate. I think our synod, as you guys are raised up in leadership positions in our synod and hopefully that'll happen, because what you're doing and I'm just going to throw out some kudos for you, son what you're doing in your church and what you're doing through lead time and American Reformation is amazing and the out-of-the-box thinking and the clear vision and the mission mindset that you guys possess needs to be duplicated in our Senate and I'm praying that hopefully not too many people at Christ Greenfield are hearing this, but I'm praying that someday you get an opportunity to be raised up in leadership positions in our synod, because our synod needs out-of-the-box thinking that you guys have and the ability and giftedness to articulate it clearly so that people can latch on to it and run with it, and that's what God has done in you and in your contemporaries.
Speaker 2:That's kind. I have no desire to serve in a bureaucratic role. I love the local church, so thanks for that. We'll see what the Lord wants to do. But I just am overwhelmed at the possibilities in this day and age to be a part of a major shift, you could say a turning point in American culture, where the gods of this day and age are very evidently not satisfying our deepest felt need, which is a salvation by grace and faith in Jesus. And I want to be a part of an army of people that are raising up an army of workers. The fields are widening the harvest.
Speaker 1:And.
Speaker 2:I want to be about a group of pastors who say a part of my role is to raise up the next generation of pastors, young and old, to cast vision for them, to be about it and to keep them in their local context. And so, yeah, that's it. I think that's where the rubber hits the road. I think a lot of times you can aspire for these, like Senate or not. You know these different roles and God bless everybody that's in those roles. I mean being a district president, one of the most thankless, hardest jobs you can possibly imagine, and many of these guys have given themselves to the work of ministry for multiple years and decades. And, man, they deal with a lot of different stuff. But as I listened to the Council of President meetings and this is the I don't know that it's the most joyful place.
Speaker 1:You listen to that.
Speaker 2:You listen to that? No, I don't listen to that. I listen to people that are there at the Council of President meetings and it sounds like worse than going to the dentist to get your teeth removed.
Speaker 1:I mean the way they.
Speaker 2:I don't know and I don't know why. I don't think it's any one person's. Whatever reason. The culture of the Council of Presidents is not a place filled with joy, or a number of the guys, a number of the guys that I hang out with, wouldn't give me such dire, you know, and it's not just about pastoral formation, there's just a lack of curiosity and adventure. It feels like everybody's jockeying for position and like back room.
Speaker 1:You know whiskey meetings to kind of position.
Speaker 2:It just sounds horrendous, Like I don't deal with that in the local context. So maybe somebody wants to do something about that into the future. But we'll see.
Speaker 1:You make me laugh.
Speaker 3:That people would look at the LCMS. That's unfortunate. Yeah, it is unfortunate. I think, son, we started this conversation 45 minutes ago, whatever, almost an hour now with joy, leading with joy, almost an hour now with joy, you know, leading with joy. And I mean, the God of the ages has claimed us as his very own and he dispatched his son, jesus, to do what we could never do, to have what we could never earn. And that's the source, bottom line source, of our joy. And if that's not evidenced with our leaders down through the years, where that was the case, um, unfortunately, and uh, I don't know, I don't you know more about why that is than I do, but it's unfortunate for sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it could change Leaders, step into environments, and it can change over time and I pray it does, because our theology is so great. I'm not going to counter what you said at all, but I think the false dichotomy, Dad, is that purity of doctrine and mission are like kind of counter to one another. The purest expression of doctrine is God's mission to get all of his kids back his wayward, fallen, broken, original sin riddled. You know people who are far from the Lord, Like that is the mission of the church. God has a mission, God's mission has a church and there needs to be pure, clear confession of what we believe. You know the word, the sacraments, our confession of faith. That's why the book of Concord was written, for goodness sake, was to get back to the purity of God's mission by grace, through faith for his people. You know what I'm saying. So I it's two sides of the same coin, right, I mean the fuel is the mission and and our confession is what we proclaim, right, which is Christ and Him crucified.
Speaker 3:I love it.
Speaker 2:So anything more to say to that?
Speaker 3:No, absolutely not. I mean you said it so beautifully the mission of the church is the doctrine of salvation by grace, your faith in Christ alone, along with all the other fundamental things that we believe about the faith. I mean that's the fuel, that's the foundation, that's the essence of the faith. I mean that's the fuel, that's the foundation, that's the essence of the faith. The problem is, a lot of times we don't see an integral connection between the doctrine that we profess and the gospel we preach, which should be reaching lost people.
Speaker 2:I got to hang. Yeah, amen. I got to hang out with a guy named Dr Harold Ristow, and do you have COVID? By the way, you've been coughing. Do you have COVID? I did, you did recently, yeah Goodness. Yeah, I thought COVID was done, dad, I know it's still around.
Speaker 3:No, I hadn't. Okay, since we're on that, folks, I'm 68 years old. I didn't get the jab. I did not do that and I didn't get the jab. I did not do that and I don't need to get into that. So I got COVID and I've had it twice now and this time was like a cold. It's a cold, you know, it's. All the symptoms were like a bad cold and I'm just getting over it now. I'm 100% now. I just don't sound like it. But yeah, I had COVID.
Speaker 1:So don't the big C word is not scary anymore, folks.
Speaker 3:I don't think it ever really was, but I know we lost a lot of people. I understand that as a nation we lost a lot of people, but don't be frightened of it. Oh, this is another thing, son. Why would we be afraid of COVID when we're not here for eternity anyway?
Speaker 1:We're with Jesus.
Speaker 3:We're going to be with Jesus, right, so we can look at the face of death and say, oh death, where's your sting, oh grave, where's your victory? The sting of death is sin and the power of sin is a law, but I have the victory in Christ Jesus, my Lord. So I try not to worry about death, right, or worry about COVID, because when it's my time to go, it's my time to go and I think, as believers, we have to look at it that way. Don't be frightened of the D word, because death has been defeated by the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, amen, that's right, amen, amen.
Speaker 2:Well, you're going to enjoy. You should go back Dr Harold Ristow's podcast. We went deep in COVID Dad this is probably a couple, three weeks ago by the time your podcast gets released and he gave a lot of words of law to pastors who backed down from talking about the vaccine and some of the origin of the vaccine, the fetal stem cell and all that kind of stuff, and it was something else. And he also is the director of the classical college, luther Classical College out of Wyoming that's being put together right now, and he and I could have gotten into a number of different areas of kind of nuanced theological conversation. But what I found was a guy that loves the Lord, really loves traditional worship, like big time for sure, and that's great, I do, I do too.
Speaker 2:But we were united and I think the false dichotomy is like a guy like Harold Ristow doesn't and I even brought it up in the podcast a guy like Harold doesn't like the mission of Jesus or he's countered the mission of Jesus. He's like nothing can be further from the truth, right, I mean this guy. While we may have nuanced kind of ways in our context that we talk about Lutheranism, right. We're still Jesus-loving Lutherans who want to get the gospel into as many people's ears as possible and raise up the next generation of leaders possible and raise up the next generation of of leaders.
Speaker 2:So can we start from that place, putting the best construction on our brother or sister and and finding places of commonality rather than these kinds of nuanced places of of division and then developing these caricatures? Cause this guy had a lot of different caricatures he was, I gotta tell you this, he was a part of. He's a Canadian and he was very, very boisterous against the truck for the trucker convoy back in the day and he had so much hate come at him because of his, his strong, strong appeal against the, the regime up there in Canada as he was talking about it, and the attack on on freedom of speech etc. Went off on. There's a number of different government policies and perspectives and things, but our constitutional republic is the best right now and are we protected?
Speaker 2:By the time this comes out, we'll know who our next president is and I'm praying for the freedom of the gospel to come and even if it doesn't come, we will walk through whatever it is and do whatever it takes to get the gospel into people's ears. I hope we can agree on that in the LCMS. Dad, this has been so much fun, love you.
Speaker 2:I wouldn't honestly closing comment for me, man. I wouldn't be having the difficult conversations that I have on this podcast and not on this podcast if it weren't for the solid foundation of faith that you and mom laid for me. And I stand on your shoulders and the shoulders of those who have gone before. My grandpa, arnie Allman, um and, and thank you for instilling in me is probably wasn't your well, it probably was your prayer, just courage. You know I feel surrounded and covered to say and have difficult conversations because I'm your son.
Speaker 1:And.
Speaker 2:I'm grateful for that. I realize it's a gift. I didn't do anything to earn it to be born into your family. But, man, it's a gift that has to be stewarded well right. It is the parable of the talents. To whom much has been given, much is required.
Speaker 1:And I was given an incredible gift in being a part of your family.
Speaker 3:So thanks for being my dad. I love you.
Speaker 2:Oh gosh, my pleasure, son, my pleasure, All right man. Well before you start crying, love you. And this is lead time. This is lead time. Sharing is caring Like, subscribe, comment wherever. Wherever it is you take in these podcasts and I pray that your heart is filled with great joy as you heard my dad talk about Jesus today. Amen, we'll be back next week with another episode of Lead Time.
Speaker 3:Love you dad, I love you son, god bless.
Speaker 1:You've been listening to Lead Time, a podcast of the Unite Leadership Collective. The ULC's mission is to collaborate with the local church to discover, develop and deploy leaders through biblical Lutheran doctrine and innovative methods To partner with us in this gospel message. Subscribe to our channel, then go to theuniteleadershiporg to create your free login for exclusive material and resources and then to explore ways in which you can sponsor an episode. Thanks for listening and stay tuned for next week's episode.