Lead Time
Lead Time
Passion for the LCMS and Its Future with Pastor Scott Gress
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In this conversation, Tim Ahlman and Scott Gress explore the multifaceted nature of coaching, particularly in a leadership context. They discuss the importance of defining coaching beyond mere advice-giving, emphasizing the role of discovery and awareness in facilitating personal growth. The dialogue also touches on adaptive leadership, the biblical foundations of coaching, and the significance of asking the right questions to foster deeper connections. Gress shares insights on structured conversations and the coaching funnel, illustrating how these concepts can be applied in both formal and informal settings. In this conversation, Tim Ahlman and Scott Gress discuss the importance of coaching within the LCMS, the founding of the LCMS Coaching Network, and the need for churches to adapt to changing societal dynamics. They explore the significance of asking questions in coaching, the role of gospel-centered ministry, and the importance of engaging with communities. Scott shares his passion for the LCMS and his vision for its future, emphasizing the need for lifelong learning and connection with others.
Explore the integration of systems theory with coaching from a pastoral lens, offering insights into how it enhances self-awareness and differentiation. Pastor Scott opens up about his journey from corporate environments to ministry, influenced by his father and sparked by a master's in leadership. We delve into the biblical roots of coaching, drawing parallels with Jesus' method of asking open-ended questions that connect individuals with their core beliefs and commitments.
As we discuss the creation of the LCMS Coaching Network, find out how effective coaching techniques can transform both structured and informal conversations. From the GROW model to the hourglass model, we highlight the importance of addressing core issues before exploring options. Learn about the evolving landscape of pastoral ministry and the importance of outreach beyond traditional settings, emphasizing the incarnational approach of Jesus in making genuine connections and supporting spiritual journeys.
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Speaker 2:Welcome to Lead Time, tim Allman here. Jack Calberg is still on vacation. Today I get to hang out with a brother I was just telling him before we got on you never know how your lives are going to. My guest today, scott Gress, who has impacted as a pastor but also as a coach and a consultant, working with gosh, hundreds of churches, I'm sure. But strategic visioning, healthy culture, healthy church network all of those types of values Scott has been speaking and writing into that for much of his ministry. I get to hang out today with Pastor Scott Grass. How are you doing, brother? I'm good I get to hang out with you. No, the joy is mine. This is going to be a great time. We're talking about coaching. We've had a number of different folks on to talk about the value of coaching. There's a number of different ways you can kind of get at the topic, though, of coaching, so let's start out with just kind of defining terms. When you talk about coaching, what does that exactly mean to you, scott?
Speaker 3:Well, I'm not the definition police, uh. Well, I'm not the definition police, uh. But oftentimes when people say coaching, it's almost as if you could replace that word with uh, I'm going to come alongside them and I'm going to talk to them, I'm going to tell them what they need to do, I'm going to give them advice, I'm going to consult with them, you know. So it's a sort of a one-on-one kind of a consultation or teaching. That's not coaching. Coaching is helping people to change without telling them what to do. There's one definition Coaching is a structured conversation, so that one coaching school says it's primarily about discovery, awareness, and then once you have that discovery and awareness, then you can make intentional choices. So I kind of like that definition too. But it's a structured conversation. It's not a replacement for discipleship or anything like that. It's a way of holding a conversation. It's so that somebody can move forward and grow and develop. So how about that?
Speaker 2:Well, self-discovery is the best type of discovery and I would say it's Holy Spirit led. I mean, put our Christian Jesus lens on it. It's the spirit awakening something within us and when I have a kind guide who is asking me questions to lead toward that end, it sticks Like the change is more likely, as, in nature and me maybe, you know, get in the way, but I mean the change, the behavior, the way of being, the strategy, whatever it is that the discovery has has led to it. It sticks, it becomes a part of me, because it wasn't, it was brought up from like within within me, something that was awakened by the coach, right, and in that structured conversation is that is that I mean, that's the beauty of of being a coach and just getting to witness those light bulb moments go off and then, and then rounding back with them for another structured conversation, and then they say, hey, let me just tell you what the Lord, what the Lord did. It's so fantastic, isn't it Scott?
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, it's a. It's a situation where people don't do. Have you run into this Tim in your ministry? People don't do what you tell them to do.
Speaker 2:It'd be easier if they did. They just did what I want. Yeah, no, they don't do what you tell them to do. It'd be easier if they did. Do what I want.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, they don't. What people do is what they tell themselves to do. So in coaching you're really facilitating a conversation that they're having with themselves. And the question you know some people say well, coaching, just asking questions, not exactly. Coaching is about creating awareness. That's really the secret sauce or the secret ingredient, the active ingredient, like you would say about whatever the active ingredient is in clothes wash or toothpaste or something. The active ingredient is that people would have that, that insight or awareness or that light bulb moment, like you say, and with that then the whole world opens up for them.
Speaker 3:You know our brains are, you know, fearfully and wonderfully made, the scripture says, and we're very efficient in the way that we think.
Speaker 3:And so, you know, over time our brain goes back to the thing that we learned, the way that we've done it efficiently, what's worked in the past, and before too long we've got such well-worn neural pathways that we don't see the other options, options, and so we can tend to get stuck, especially if the circumstances change or the culture or the place where you're residing is different, and so you need that you've heard this before adaptive leadership, and so a coach ends up coming alongside of you and asking you questions that you wouldn't ask yourself.
Speaker 3:And because of that then you jump those well-worn neural pathways, you begin to pick out those things that were there somewhere in your gray matter but you just weren't making those connections. And then you have that, you know, head to the palm, to the forehead moment, and you go that's right, why didn't I think of that before? And you might've thought of it if you were out cutting the grass and you know, not really thinking about it, but it was in the back of your mind, or sometimes those that's when those thoughts come to you or when you're in the shower or something. But a coaching conversation is that facilitated conversation where you would ask questions. Somebody ask you questions you wouldn't ask yourself.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's so good. You mentioned adaptive leadership and I forget the two Heifetz and Winski.
Speaker 2:Winski, that's a staple I read it about I don't know nine months ago or so. That's a staple I read it about I don't know nine months ago or so. The balcony to the dance floor kind of metaphor, is something that sticks. And how do you kind of my automaticities, my, my ants, my automatic negative thoughts, my well-worn neural pathways, as you're talking about is going to lead me to become more and more narrow, narrow, narrow, narrow, right On my way.
Speaker 2:This is one of the biggest struggles, I think, with aging and having success in a certain context and remembering what happened there, and then you think, well, if I just do that again, like no, no, no, you have to maintain an open posture. This is why EQ eats IQ for breakfast every single day, lunch and dinner right, I mean, it's about openness and possibility rather than narrowing down my options. But again, I'm not going to. I can't lead myself there. I need someone to ask the questions, to get me above and to get me to the balcony, because I'm just dancing right now. I'm in the mess. I'm in the mess of it all. Anything more to say on adaptive leadership, though? Scott?
Speaker 3:Yeah, and coaching helps you to get that perspective, like you say, like leadership on the line. If that was the book defined for you.
Speaker 3:The other thing I would say is that we all have, as the Johari window talks about, blind spots, things that we don't know or don't see, things that maybe other people don't know about us, that we don't know or don't see, things that maybe other people don't know about us. And so coaching helps you to shrink those blind spots, so that you'll have those aha moments or those insights, and work on your EI so that you can be a better steward of the gifts that God has given you, to be more effective for his namesake and for his glory, and more people would be in heaven.
Speaker 2:It sounds like you've read some Pete Steinke systems work before. Do you know? Are you familiar with Steinke and failure of nerve? So connect what we're talking about with coaching to kind of a systems perspective.
Speaker 1:Is there any?
Speaker 3:overlap there, scott, I don't know. I suppose there is, but it's not necessarily coming to me at the moment.
Speaker 2:I'll throw something out. Sure, systems theory talks a lot about differentiation and connectedness and I think the coaching conversation allows the leader to move toward more differentiation, to have more choices, to lead with, yes, humility, but also confidence, because they've had a wise guy along the side who's asked the questions that led them toward that self-discovery, and then they can be more comfortable in their own kind of emotional processes when sabotage because that's a big deal about emotional systems is that sabotage will inevitably come but because they're resolute in spirit. Systems theory talks a lot about the data too. Right, like how over data driven we are when relationships are. It's not about the data, it's about my own emotional reactivity to whatever the data may be, saying that's good or bad. So, yeah, I think larger senses of differentiation, a heightened awareness of my own person, my own gifts and my own gaps is the outcome of a good coaching relationship.
Speaker 2:I love your definition of discovery, awareness and choice Connecting to blind spots. That's really, really helpful. How did you fall in love with kind of cause this is. This is different. Not every pastor you know is like a Scott grass who gravitates toward this sort of learning. Tell your story of how you fell in love with coaching.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'll give you sort of the medium length story. My dad wasn't a pastor. He was, you know, grew up on a farm in Western Iowa, but ultimately he became an executive with Pontiac Motor Division. So the dinnertime conversations were a little bit different, as we talked about, heard about sales promotion and followed him around and so forth. Well, I ended up getting a marketing degree and then, from there, worked for a computer company for a year and it was after a year that I went into seminary.
Speaker 3:Well, after about 10 years in the ministry, you know, you know how it is. You're spending so much of your time working with leaders, you're in meetings, you're. I really, from what I knew from my dad and what I learned in school, I could probably get a little bit sharper with this stuff. So that was about the time that PLI started getting started and even went to, I think, one of the first meetings with Norbash in Orlando. And about the same time this flyer came across my desk from Baptist University in West Palm Beach, talked about a master's in leadership. So I said you know, that's what I'm going to do. Well, after I finished that, I started thinking, oh no, what if I start snapping back to? You know the way I thought and did in the past. Snapping back to you know the way I thought and did in the past.
Speaker 3:So here I was having a conversation with a former college roommate of mine who was a coach and who was working for a leadership development firm in Chicago. And then it hit me Leadership comes down to conversations and coaching can help you do that better. And so, with his help, he gave me at the time there were two or three main coach training firms out there, so I went with one Collective Training they call it now. It was a coach's training institute at the time and that really helped me to integrate what I had learned in my master's degree and what I was trying to do in ministry. And, like I say, it was really a stewardship, so that you know, it could focus some of the gifts that not only that God had given to me but that he'd given the other leaders and the whole church leaders and the whole church and that's the way I really kind of look at it so that we could have those conversations and move forward with purpose for his kingdom's sake. And coaching helped me to do that.
Speaker 2:That's so good. Have you ever had anybody come up and say this is all corporate mumbo jumbo, all this kind of coaching? Where's coaching in the Bible, you know?
Speaker 1:what do you say to someone who?
Speaker 2:asked a question like where does, where does coaching have a place in the Christian's life? In scripture. Root it in scripture. What would you say to that person?
Speaker 3:Yeah Well, my son gave me a Christmas present about eight years ago was the questions Jesus asked? And wow, he asked a lot of those open-ended questions. And you know what I tell people in my coach training classes is coaching is an ancient practice, socratic questions. It's just that in the late 80s or the late 70s and early 80s there were some circumstances on the ground in business where they really needed to do that developmental bit a lot faster than an old apprentice or mentoring system, and so coaching became the name. That sort of brought some of those conversational skills and helping skills together. So you know I smile.
Speaker 3:But we, when somebody asks me those kinds of questions or makes those kinds of statements, but we used to say the same thing about counseling. But we used to say the same thing about counseling, you know. We used to say the same thing about ministry over the telephone, you know, but now through text, through cell phones, no problem. Now we're doing it on Zoom and there's a lot of helping skills that are, you know, just like coaching or helping skills, whether you call them preaching, teaching, consulting, counseling. You know it's not coaching, is not the skill, but it's one of the tools that we can use for ministry.
Speaker 2:Does that help? It's really great Looking at Jesus, like what questions did Jesus ask that you're like? Well, that was brilliant. Can you tell us a story or two from Jesus? I mean, I can think of some, but I'd love to just pick your brain a little bit.
Speaker 3:Oh, I don't know. The one that really sticks out in me is where he asked who do you say that I am, yeah, yeah, ask who do you say that I am, yeah, yeah, wow, here's what everybody else says. But what about you? Yeah, and that gets people to connect with what's going on inside of them and then come down on one side or the other, you're the Christ, you are the savior, and then you know, when you come to that conclusion, you know, boy, you own it. Somebody didn't just tell you to do it, and so you're going to kind of follow through on the instructions of your boss. But when you come up with the solution that your boss asked you to help come up with, you know, man, you're in it 110%. So even if it's not a better idea than your boss, because you carry it out with a lot of vigor, because it's your idea, it's probably going to end up being just as good, if not better.
Speaker 2:Amen. So if Jesus, if Jesus asks a whole bunch of questions, how much more should, should we? Because we got a lot, a lot to learn. There's a there's kind of a dying art today in conversation in general. Maybe we go down this path and I don't think people are asking we need to be coached in what questions to ask others, to engage them, to draw them out, to deepen relational connection. And so what words of wisdom do you have for folks that are just learning to be better conversationalists, to get other people to talk better? Any kind of tips and tricks there, scott? Oh well.
Speaker 3:I think what a good, just basic thing for pastors to do is after an event whether it's Sunday morning or whether it's Sunday school, whether it's a rally day, it's Sunday morning or whether it's Sunday school, whether it's a you know rally day, whether it's VBS or whether it's the Christmas, you know series of services or whatever just sit down with folks and go. How did it go? What do you think? What could we have done better? What went really well? How did God surprise you with this blessing? You know, just debrief that experience and listen.
Speaker 3:Another thing maybe you know the name Marcus Buckingham. He was involved originally in some of the Clifton StrengthsFinders work early on and now he's on his own and he has this advice that when you're working with people, just go up to them and say how are you doing? And secondly, how can I help? What an awesome question. How can I help? And not that they're going to hand it to you and you take responsibility from them, but you provide support, encouragement, resources, whatever it needs so that they do well. So those just debriefing something with somebody and then remembering those lessons and then also just asking people how can I help, and amazing things will happen.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, amen. Let's get a little deeper into the structured conversation. I know you've worked with a lot of coaches and I actually, in the coaching I've done, I tell people kind of where we're going in the structured conversation and I like the picture of a funnel in my head to kind of nail down. There's a lot of things, what's top of mind, and then we're getting down to their own kind of choice, their own next steps, the top three priorities, whatever it happens to be toward the end of that kind of discovery. Here's all the stuff I think about the emotional jug too. Have you ever heard of the emotional jug? So what's making you mad, sad, worried and then glad it's like let's skim. There's a lot of stuff that's there, but it may not be the main stuff we need to talk about, but you still need to talk about it. There's hard things, but then we're going to get down to the things that you really can control, the choices you need to make. So talk about the way you work, the structure of a coaching conversation with this guy?
Speaker 3:yeah, there's. We call those coaching models or, uh, coaching conversational maps, and there's a number of different ones. Uh, you know, a lot of people are familiar with the grow model, um, goal reality options, and then will uh. Another one is similar to uh, the funnel, but it's the hourglass model, where the top of the hourglass people are. It's wide at the top right, and that's where people are sort of not quite sure something's wrong, but I'm not exactly sure what it is.
Speaker 3:And so when you ask them, what do you want to coach through, they can't quite put their finger on it. So sometimes it takes a number of minutes, maybe half the hour of coaching to really get to that one core issue. That's really going to be the game changer if you can deal with it. So you spend some time narrowing it down to that one thing, that one grain of sand, if you will, that goes through the pinch point in the hourglass, and then from there you begin to talk about options and resources and ideas and things that are possible for them and help them overcome their own limitations, where people often say, oh, I couldn't do that. Well, you can't do it yet, but what else could you do?
Speaker 3:And inevitably, when people are encouraged to think deeper, they've always got two or three ideas, but once they get beyond three or four, you know they'll probably come up with one that'll hit them. Oh, why didn't I think that of that before? So when you finally say to them, so what are you actually going to do? They go well, it's the last one, it always is, but we call that the coaching funnel. We call that the coaching funnel, and more and more in my coaching ministry that's. That's the, the mental model or the conversational map that I use just to kind of keep track of where we're going in the dialogue.
Speaker 2:Do you ever use it? That's so helpful. Do you ever use it in less formal conversations?
Speaker 3:Oh for sure, oh for sure. Well, there's a number of different, different kinds of coaching, but in what you just alluded to are two of the big breaks. One is formal coaching, where you have a contract with somebody and you, you know X, number of sessions, et cetera, et cetera. So you have a contract and covenant and structure. But there's a ton of informal conversations that you can have with people and it can be, you know, chatting with the organist after the service. It can be talking to a board member, you know, in the parking lot before you get in the car. It can be talking to your spouse before you go off to work and maybe say a prayer together. It can be, you know, the last thing before you go to bed. It can be a short conversation with your child, you know, especially as they get to be in those teenage years. Am I saying anything to you, tim?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're preaching those teenage years? Am I saying anything to you, Tim?
Speaker 3:And instead of telling them, how could you be so thoughtless? You got to do blank. No, a little coaching will go a long way, and so that those informal opportunities just to ask, and in the words of you ever heard of the author Michael Bungay Stanger? No, the coaching habit. Yeah, Awesome stuff, he says. Ask one more question In your conversations with people. Just ask one more question. Resist that temptation to tell people what to do or to say what you think or whatever? Just ask one more question.
Speaker 2:So, so helpful. So you recent the reason I got kind of reconnected with you is you sent out a big email talking about the LCMS coaching network that you started. Tell that story of starting that network. I'm so excited about it.
Speaker 3:Well, part of the story is that when I left the parish in 2010, I started doing a lot of coach training throughout the country and a couple of times even in Canada. So I got to know a lot of people and I have had the privilege of going to St Louis a couple times a year to teach coaching, and so I've trained a lot of people, I've met a lot of people. So here we go I'm, I'm driving in the car and I get a phone call from I don't know should I say his name Billy Brath, with LCEF, and everybody knows Billy, yeah, everybody knows Billy, and so, and so I had done some help with his home congregation and we'd gotten to know one another a little bit along the way. And he goes scott, we're doing this work out and out up in the, in the northeast, and we're going to need coaches. So who do you know, who could be part of that and be coaches? And I'm like I've taught a lot of people, but it's not like I've followed up and known who's taken it further, who's gotten certified and all that, and so I just felt horrible that I couldn't, you know, be be more helpful. And then, you know, it hit me talk about an aha moment, you know, palm to the forehead. We got to get organized, we got to come up with a list for resources for ministries in the Missouri Synod. So what happened was I started getting on the phone with other people that I knew were coaches in the Synod. So 20 phone calls turned into who do you know that I should talk to? Turned into 20 more, turned into a Zoom call just to talk about it, turned into a steering committee, turned into a board of directors, turned into an incorporation, turned into a 501c3.
Speaker 3:And we decided to intentionally name it the LCMS Coaching Network. So it's lcmscoachingcom and we kind of have three uh, uh, what do you want to call them Clients? Uh, one would be coaches out there who want to network and encourage, be encouraged with one another. One are like uh, you know, billy, who called me? Those people who are people who are doing some kind of ministry, putting on some kind of program, and they want coaches because it's becoming a thing that people are aware of. You can't just put on the training. Training is not transformative, but if you align the training with coaching, then there's greater chance that they will actually put it to use and and make. It'll make a difference. So it's for, we'll have a.
Speaker 3:We wanted to have a directory of coaches where people in that those kinds of ministries or churches or individual Christians or church workers could go to a directory and say, oh okay, here's this person, here's their credentials, here's their training, here's their coaching niche, and so I'll reach out to them and see if we can have a conversation. So other coaches, people who are looking for a coach, but then also, thirdly, those people who wanted to learn more about coaching, and so you know, there's a lot of uh, uh information about out there about coaches and coaching, and we wanted to be able to be a resource. Uh, and just along that note, um, uh, we thought we would partner with coach approach ministries. I don't know if you're familiar with them and, uh, they have, they do, uh, they're just awesome in coach training and their training is certified by the International Coaching Federation and I'm licensed to teach their basic training class. And I think you had Travis Guzzi also on your podcast.
Speaker 2:Yep, yep yeah.
Speaker 3:Travis is. He's an overachiever. He's got about seven or eight or nine certifications from, or licenses from, cam certifications to, to teach it, and so put that together and we're able to provide a bunch of training for folks if they're looking for education about what coaching is. So we launched this in the spring of 2023 and we've got 60, some ish registered members, about 12 or 13 on the directory and we're looking to get the word out and we're hoping to meet some folks at best practices in the spring. So awesome, god willing.
Speaker 2:So it's really new. It's really new, yeah, yeah, that's great. Are you getting some traction with folks in like synodical offices, districts, anything like that? Are those relationships starting to form?
Speaker 3:Yes, I think you also had a conversation with Vanessa Seifert. Dr Seifert, oh, vanessa's next level, yeah yeah. So Vanessa's on the board and so is Travis, oh cool. And Vanessa is, she's just. She's got that, that StrengthsFinders gift called Woo Certainly does. She is a wooer, and so she's connecting with a lot of district presidents, and I've had the blessing of being in St Louis and at the seminary and talking about coaching as a tool of ministry and so, god willing, you know, we'll see what happens and hopefully it'll be something that can be of service to the church at large kind of an angst and fire in you to address a problem, see a need and work to build measure, learn a solution.
Speaker 2:over time that's going to grow up and bless so many people. It's very, very humbling, I'm sure, scott. So thank you for being open to it.
Speaker 3:Well, thank you. Yeah, we need your prayers.
Speaker 2:Thank, you, yeah, yeah. So let's get 30,000 feet a little bit. You're a lifer in the LCMS, as am I. Let's get 30,000 feet a little bit. You're a lifer in the LCMS, as am I. What do you love about our church body and how are you praying for us to become more and more healthy? You've been talking about kind of healthy leaders, healthy churches, etc. For a long period of time and I think in this season, right now, we have some areas of strategic growth and opportunity in the LCMS. But I still I love this church body, I'm a part of it and want to see her thrive and become as healthy as possible. So what do you love most about the LCMS and where do you, where would you like to see us grow? Scott Scott.
Speaker 3:Hensley Boy? That's a wide open question. Thanks, tim Tim Jackson. Yeah, you're welcome, just paint Scott Hensley.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, obviously it starts with doctrine, but really at the heart of that is the gospel. And you know, letting the gospel predominate is just such a blessing. When you go online and you watch a sermon you know on that somebody uploaded, chances are you're going to hear the good news about Jesus Christ. What a blessing. And I can't help but think about what happened with me when I was baptized. My mom went back to her home congregation, a big church, and you know what the pastor says sure, even though it's Christmas Eve, I'll come out and I'll baptize your son. And I got baptized at her home congregation, a big church in the middle of Western Iowa. And so naturally, right every Christmas Eve, when somebody says, hey, pastor, could you baptize my grandson, you're like, okay, I will. But there's that servant-heartedness and that's what really is an amazing thing about our Synod gospel-centered servant-heartedness, people who still value the idea of being a pastor and providing pastoral care and who care about people enough to tell them about Jesus. So there you go, there's that answer.
Speaker 2:That's so good as you look. I couldn't agree more as you look at areas where we have strategic opportunities to grow, become healthier. You know we've got some demographic and, yeah, some leadership. You know opportunities. I would say Any prayers for kind of the future. Maybe this is a way to what should we be known for in the next generation? What do we want to preserve for the sake of the future?
Speaker 3:Maybe this is a way to ask what should we be known for in the next generation? What do we want to preserve for the sake of the next generation? That's a good question. Did you have some coach training Tim?
Speaker 2:From time to time.
Speaker 1:I just talk to a lot of people, scott and so thank you for agreeing to talk to me.
Speaker 3:This is fun. Yeah, what known for cross-cultural ministry there are I live in South Florida. I mean we've got Venezuelans and Colombians and Brazilians and Haitians and you know people from all over the world and you know we've just got so many opportunities. It's like Christmas which package do you want to open first, and forming those relationships and having conversations about Jesus, and it's kind of like, wow, we want to just release what you know, what's holding back the dam, so that there's people who are blessed to go out and have those conversations and get to know people and bring them to the blessings of faith in Christ and the waters of baptism. So that's what I'm thinking right now. Yeah, I love it.
Speaker 2:I love it as you look at the church. We'll stay again a little high level here the LCMS and just the wider church. Think about, because when were you ordained? Maybe 30 years ago or so.
Speaker 3:Yeah, something what 88?.
Speaker 2:Something like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's been a while.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's been a minute. It's cool, it's great. What are the biggest changes that you've seen in pastoral ministry? And now you're coaching? You're getting to hear about coaches. What are some of the biggest? Like, you had challenges in the 80s, to be sure, but the challenges today are different. How would you categorize those challenges, scott?
Speaker 3:Well, the slide started in the 50s and 60s and it just continues on to now. And that is the society around us. You know that beforehand it was assumed that you were connected to some kind of household of faith, even if you didn't go to church. But nowadays, I don't care where you are, it's probably down into the single digits of the percentage of people who are at some kind of house of faith or worship weekly or even every other week, and those are the changes. So, rather than engaging people at the doorstep of the church, uh, where are you going to engage people? Um, and that's really the question, um, and and you know it's it it gets that whole attractional versus incarnational kind of way of of touching people. But I think it really comes down to that question kind of way of of touching people. But I think it really comes down to that question how do you want to engage people? And I think the, the coaching, is a great way. Uh, you know, informal coaching, like we talked about, just going up to people that maybe you don't know very well and saying, hi, how are you? Help me to get to know you, how can I support you?
Speaker 3:And you know, just amazing partnerships are going to happen. People are going to just be blown away that you're interested in them and care for them and when, and sooner or later, they're going to share their hurts and their hopes and their dreams. And if you just pause for a sentence prayer, dear God, help John because of his concern about the rent. In Jesus name, amen, Chances are they're going to have tears in their eyes because probably nobody's ever prayed for them. And so those are the thoughts that come to my mind. And those are the thoughts that come to my mind, and it's different than what we've thought before, because, you know, as I work with congregations, the default thinking is we're going to meet people at the front door and so we have to have something that they're going to, that's going to want to help them to stay. Ok, fair enough, but we probably need to meet them earlier in their journey than that.
Speaker 2:So that's what I think that is just the way of Jesus. He went there you go, he walked, he interacted, he fed, he healed. He's God incarnate and now the church is called to be incarnate where. Where the people are and the way we talk about it. A lot are felt needs, scott, and so we're seeing, we're seeing a fair amount of folks their front door, um may, if they're church people then they're probably going to look at your website or something like that. So that needs to be hopefully hospitable and representative of what they'll experience when they come. But for us it's Christ Greenfield Cares, cg Cares, so all sorts of care ministry going on right now, from grief share to divorce care, to parenting and marriage and dating and to CR Celebrate Recovery going on. And La Mesa we have a homeless, working poor and homeless ministry and it's out in. So there's just all sorts of ways where the body of Christ can just show up and listen and talk and love and learn and cry with people, connect with people out in the community.
Speaker 2:And it used to be. I mean, this is probably the biggest difference from, say, my grandpa's generation, who was a pastor in the Denver area. You could open a church and say there were people from the Midwest that were moving brand new into a spot you know, and Lutherans in our case just kind of show up. When this church, christ Greenfield, was started 40 some years ago, we wanted to be the Lutheran church for Lutherans out in the East Valley and there wasn't a Phoenix and there wasn't any kind of hostility. It's not like negative, we just wanted to be there to be a word and sacrament place. But my goodness, how much have things changed since I was born. I'm 43 and I was right at the tip. You're talking 50s, 60s. I mean secularism, post-christian culture, a lot of the postmodern tendencies were already kind of entering into our world. But now we're so far on the other side.
Speaker 2:I'm going to be interviewing Chad Lakees. I don't know if you know Chad Lutheran Hour Ministries. He's got a brand new book out, how the Light Shines Through. Listener, if you haven't picked up how the light shines through, cph put it out just recent. Oh, my goodness, it is unbelievable and I can't wait to ask him. So I'm not going to. I'm going to hold back some of his content. But he talks about the different views of secular. We throw this word around, you know it's secular public spaces. These are the three types of ways. Secular is public space, no-transcript after Jesus and living the upside down kingdom life which is there and available for every kind of Christian. And it's our invitation just to go and engage them with love and invite them to wake up by the Spirit's power to what the Lord is doing. Any response to that Scott?
Speaker 3:Yeah, and when you do that, be careful that you don't assume where they're at and what their issues are and what their needs are, because so much of our planning in churches is like well, we know there's this problem and so we'll offer that no, let's go have a conversation and get to know people and then, after we get to know people, they'll define what the concerns are, and then we ask them to help create something that serves them and their friends, and they're going to invite people, so they're going to be the best marketing for it.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, Well, that's actually all those classes I just listed. They were. They're led by people who had that exact same experience. Yeah, awesome, and just said hey, as I'm receiving it. Um, yeah, our staff runs actually none of those. None of those experiences are all people that have come to know Jesus and say he healed me in these ways and maybe, if you've got similar things going on, he wants to heal you.
Speaker 3:And that's, and that's probably why you got the traction and it's happened, and uh, that's a, that's a. What a blessing.
Speaker 2:Hey, it's just a lot of fun to just release, equip, empower the body of Christ to be the body, body of Christ. It's fine. We're not a perfect place by any stretch. Like we got, we got stuff we're working on all the time, but this is a very entrepreneurial place that likes to do whatever it takes to engage people where they're at, and that's a and that's a treasure, to be sure.
Speaker 2:So, hey, last question, I don't know why I've been thinking about death. Well, I'm around death a lot, yeah, but even like my own mortality my own I've been thinking a lot about time, the concept of time, which is very hard to define, by the way, because God is above time. And yet we have a timeline, we have a dash, we live and then we don't, and we always live in Christ. We have the hope of the resurrection, to be sure, but I want to steward run the race well, as the Apostle Paul says, with perseverance, keeping our eyes fixed upon Jesus. So what do you hope people say about you? It's not about you, it's about what the Lord did in and through you. Um, praise, be to God. But what do you hope they say after, after you're with the Lord, let's talk legacy as we close.
Speaker 3:Oh, I don't know, that's probably for other people to determine. But, um, I don't know, that's probably for other people to determine. But one goal that I've tried to persist in is to be a lifelong learner. That I don't have it all figured out, so I want to keep learning so that I can be the best steward of the gifts that God has given me, and especially the gospel steward of the gifts that God has given me, and especially the gospel steward of the gospel, uh, as his servant.
Speaker 2:So, um, um, yeah, I'll leave it there. Yeah, no, that's good and it is for others to to talk about, and I do. I do love talking about the saints who the blessing that people have been in my life, who now faithfully have departed and are the saints who have gone before, and we'll see again in the new resurrection reality when Jesus comes back.
Speaker 3:Amen.
Speaker 2:So people, this has been so much fun. Scott, thank you for your generosity of time. If people want to connect with you and your new ministry now, how can they do so? Just remind folks.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I encourage you to go to lcmscoachingcom if you want to learn more about the network. If you're interested in connecting with me, you can go to scottgresscom, s-c-o-t-t-g-r-e-s-scom, and I got an email too scottgress at M-E dot com.
Speaker 2:So there you go. I love it, scott. It's fun to use technology to reconnect with you. Brother, thank you for staying engaged, thank you for just offering your love, your presence, your empowering spirit for the body of Christ, and we're healthier as a church because of you. I hope you know and experience that deep, deep gratitude from me and many, many others whom you've touched. This is Lead Time, sharing is caring, like subscribe, comment, wherever it is that you take in these podcasts and we'll be back very, very soon, scott. Thank you, brother, you're awesome.
Speaker 3:Thank you, god bless you.
Speaker 1:You've been listening to Lead Time, a podcast of the Unite Leadership Collective. The ULC's mission is to collaborate with the local church to discover, develop and deploy leaders through biblical Lutheran doctrine and innovative methods To partner with us in this gospel message. Subscribe to our channel, then go to theuniteleadershiporg to create your free login for exclusive material and resources and then to explore ways in which you can sponsor an episode. Thanks for listening and stay tuned for next week's episode.