Lead Time
Lead Time
Balancing Tradition and Innovation: Pastor Zach Zehnder's Journey
Lead Time listeners, Tim Ahlman here! We love bringing you content to grow as leaders in your ministry and beyond, but we want to make sure we’re hitting the mark. Can you help us out by filling out a quick 5-question survey? It’ll take less than a minute and help us know what you like about the podcast, what topics you want more of, and even which guests you’d love to hear from next.
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The episode highlights the importance of entrepreneurial leadership in the LCMS, emphasizing the need for innovative approaches in church ministry. It explores the connection between discipleship and leadership, discussing how trust and collaboration among leaders can drive effective change within congregations.
• Discussion on Zach's entrepreneurial journey while in seminary
• Emphasis on the LCMS culture and its hesitance towards entrepreneurship
• Importance of cultivating a spirit of risk-taking in church leadership
• Connection between discipleship and effective leadership development
• Highlighting the Red Letter Challenge and its impact on personal transformation
• Conversations on stories of hope within the church community
• Call to embrace change and innovation in faith practices
• Open dialogue and trust among church leaders as a crucial element for growth
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Lead Time listeners, tim Allman here. We love at Lead Time bringing you content to grow as leaders in your ministry and beyond, but we want to make sure that we're hitting the mark, so can you help us out by filling this five-question survey? It's going to take less than a minute. It helps us know what you like about the podcast. We want to hear what topics you want more of and even which guests you'd love to hear from next. Please let us know. We want to know also how likely you are to recommend Lead Time to a pastor, a friend or a church leader. Your feedback, it really really matters. Check out the link in the show notes and let us know what you think. Thank you for helping us lead better together. God bless.
Speaker 2:This is Lead Time.
Speaker 1:All right, welcome to Lead Time, tim Allman here. Jack Calvert is on vacation. He's at some conference. I don't know where Jack is, but today I get to hang out with my friend. Partner in the gospel accountability, partner now for a number of years, partner in loving the game of golf and leadership formation years, partner in Loving the Game of Golf and Leadership Formation, entrepreneurial Kingdom. All the things are wrapped up into Pastor Zach Zender. How are you doing, zach?
Speaker 3:I'm doing great man. I'm on Lead Time Podcast with my buddy, tim. What could be better? You know?
Speaker 1:Well, the joy is mine. Man, You're a gift. As you look at the LCMS right now, there aren't many guys that do as many wild things as you've done Now. You sold golf head. Maybe we'll just start here. When you were at the seminary, you made money selling golf head covers. Zach, that's very unusual. You ran a business while you were going to grad school. Tell that story quick before I get going, because I think it kind of seeds. Oh, this is why the cross was launched. This is why Red Letter was launched. God put something in you to start new things, to reach people, to provide for yourself, for sure, but then to reach new people with the gospel, once it got kind of turned toward that end. Like, tell that, tell that story. You're a unique breed, Zach Zender. I love it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, hey, I don't know that all the people like that I'm that unique, but hey, it's for me, honestly, what I've always been entrepreneurial. I learned early on with my dad and my brother. Going to sports card shows that it is better to be behind the table than in front of the table, and so we did everything we could to collect enough to get behind the table, because you can charge more behind the table, and so I've always had that entrepreneurial spirit and for me, I started something in college that we then went through seminary and even honestly, tim into my first seven years of church planting in Florida. We sold golf head covers. We bought them in bulk from golf shops, country clubs and we sold them individually on eBay, amazon, and that for me, was my number one primary income, even to go be a church planter. That was part of the reason why we were able to plant the churches.
Speaker 3:I took a halftime salary those first three years even though I was working full time right off the bat, and so that's kind of like I've always been really entrepreneurial, like if people really understand who I am, I love, you know, I love ministry and I love being a pastor.
Speaker 3:I'm probably more on the leadership communication side of being a pastor less on the shepherding every day, if I look, if I just look at my giftings not that I can't do those things or won't do those things, but always sort of been that entrepreneurial guy though underneath it all. And so for me it was just selling golf head covers. That's what. I went to seminary, I did my vicarage in St Louis as well, and anytime we could sell head covers I'd be shipping them out every day and we'd sell 150, 200 a week or so on average and it turned into a really great thing to get us through seminary debt free. And what's neat now is my teenage son, who just turned 17 today as we're recording kind of crazy, but he has resurrected that head cover business the last few years and now he's doing it as a high schooler and just yeah, super proud of him.
Speaker 1:So shout out to Nathan Zender getting after it, bro, I love it, yeah, super proud of him. So, yeah, shout out to Nathan Zender getting after it, bro. Yeah, I love it and happy birthday to you. So we need more entrepreneurial leaders in our church body. I don't, I don't know why, I don't know. We're an older church body.
Speaker 1:It appears as if the Luther and a lot of the early reformers had this kind of because if you're an entrepreneur you have a higher tolerance toward risk, relational risk, financial risk, right. But I don't know that we have that kind of being cultivated, stewarded well to identify those, because not everybody has that kind of a new start early, not just early adopter, but like the innovator. It's a very small percentage in any organization, right, I mean, it may be 5% tops. My take as I look at the wider LCMS is it's closer to 1% maybe, and so you're even more of kind of the black sheep anomaly. You kind of push the boundaries, it's even. You're even more of kind of the black sheep anomaly, you kind of push the boundaries, that's who, that's who you are. So let's just, yeah, any kind of take on how the culture I guess in our church body is kind of adverse to entrepreneurs. Zach.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So I mean, in some ways, every church plant and every RSO and every nonprofit like, in some ways, was started by an entrepreneur or someone who had that spirit and so in a sense we do have it there, but for whatever reason, we're not cultivating it. Well, right now in our Lutheran church, missouri synod. And I do think we have to also look at what's going on in culture. When you look at, like, high school Gen Z, right now, the number one job that they want to do is be an entrepreneur. We're seeing that in the gig economy that, like there's people that don't want the normal jobs. They're bouncing around there. They're, they're becoming entrepreneurs because they want to own their schedule, the flexibility, and so they're working to be contractors on their own hours where they can work where they want. I think I saw a study that was like, or heard one that was like 72% of high schoolers want to be entrepreneurs. That's a lot of people.
Speaker 2:Now part of me is like they don't understand fully what it's like to be an entrepreneur.
Speaker 3:It ain't always easy, it sounds easy and there's definitely pros and cons and benefits to it, but it's challenging. And so for me, tim, yeah, I think we've lost on a large scale what it looks like to be an entrepreneur in our synod, and I don't think we've had many that have been a voice for other entrepreneurs, and part of me is saddened by that, because I really believe in the LCMS, which I'm a fourth generation LCMS pastor. I really believe we've got the purest of the doctrines, the gospel, the justification by grace through faith, and if anybody ought to be starting new things like crazy, it's us. That's the, that's the fuel that should get us to start. We've got everything we need, we, we, we don't have anything we don't need. We've got Jesus Christ and eternity, the confidence that we walk with, not by our works but by his, and so that in alone like ought to be enough for us to just do bold things and take risks that nobody else is willing to take, and for whatever reason, we stop with the intellectual ascent of justification by grace through faith and we don't work it out in sanctification.
Speaker 3:So to me, it is a sanctification issue, it's a discipleship issue and it's not something we cultivate and there aren't a lot of leaders that are going before. And if I can be one for others, I want to be that to say like, because I've had to kind of walk this journey not totally alone but I can pull in the Bill Woolseys of our church and a few others that have made impact beyond LCMS. But we've got what it takes and we've got the doctrine and we've got everything we need and yet there's just something that there's a spirit that's not present right now in our leadership at the top level down that is preventing a lot of the newness and the ideas and the risk takers and the bold people that are ready to storm the gates of hell. There's a breaks system to our denomination. That's just really frustrating right now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's good. We have a propensity toward what Edwin Friedman who was a Jewish rabbi, not a Christian, he's more of a sociologist in family systems theory called the hurting mentality. There's a stickiness to this hurting mentality that keeps people from individually. So this is all in leadership, it's always the us and the me, the me and the we. Right and healthy folks are differentiated enough to speak for self to say I think we could try something here, and leaders go first, right, and then it's going to be okay, is the other thing we say. You know, and so if there were just more leaders saying we could do this and we want to be a voice for that here at the ULC, right, we could try some new things, we could test it. It doesn't mean we're throwing the baby out of the bag. You're going to compromise on absolutely everything. Oh, by the way, Jesus is still on the throne. Still, word and sacrament is the main thing. Still, two kinds of righteousness, the way we understand the scriptures, you know, law, gospel, handles, like all of these things are still the foundation of what we do. And out of that foundation and it is a family systems thing out of that foundation, I have other people who are cheering for me. I have a dad, you have a dad. I have a wider group of people who say you know what it's going to be. Okay, we can try new things and not compromise on theology.
Speaker 1:Think about the early church. Again, the early church is not prescriptive, it's descriptive of what God did, but a lot of that description needs to. You're going to be okay, and then Jesus. It seems unkind for Jesus to just ascend, Doesn't it? I mean, I gave you this great mission go and make disciples of all nations Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria you're going to be. And then he just gave us the spirit, just the spirit. Listen to us, man. You have everything you need because you have the comfort of the consoler, the leader, the one who's going to be speaking for you. When you don't know what you're going to say, what you're going to try, it really is a denigration of the work of the Holy Spirit and trust of the Holy Spirit. Anything more to say there, Zach, though? I think we've got all the goods. I'm just doubling down on what you're saying. We got all the goods. Are we going to live with a spirit of fear or a spirit of faith, trusting the Holy Spirit to be at work.
Speaker 3:Anything more there, Zach, oh gosh, a lot more, I think yeah, part of it too is, by the way, we're going to mess up at times, and our doctrine is so amazing that when we mess up, we've got this beautiful gift of grace. And I do love theology and I don't want to compromise theology, but what I will tell you is any sort of bad theology is also something that can be covered by the grace of God, and so we cannot live with this fear mindset. No-transcript. And before Peter says anything, jesus meets him and tells him essentially by the way, you know that I don't have to pay the tax and my kids don't have to pay the tax either. But just to appease, because we got a bigger mission going on right now, why don't you go ahead and cast your net out there? Put the pole in the sea of Galilee, where there are thousands upon thousands of fish, and you will happen to find a two denarii coin that's going to take care of both you and me, even though we have to pay it. I will pay it for you, I'll pay your debt and I'm going to pay mine, even though I don't need to, just because we got bigger fish to fry.
Speaker 3:And what I love about this is he corrects his bad theology, like even there in that story with him paying the tax, like it's bad theology to pay the tax for and he does it anyway, just because there's there's stuff to move on. There's bigger things. So what I'm not advocating here is that we have in our denomination that this mindset that theology trumps everything else. I think is got to go Jesus Christ on his throne like justification by grace, through faith. Let's work it out, let's trust one another, let's go for things we're going about those mistakes. Let's have grace for one another, forgive one another and keep moving on, rather than advocating that we should not and cannot do anything new in our church body for the sake of the purity of the doctrine. I love our purity of doctrine, but let's go. Now is the time. So anyway, I got a lot more I could say on it, but those are just a few. I'm not that passionate about it.
Speaker 1:It's great, dude, I love your passion. And God's mission has a church. The mission the church doesn't have a mission. God's mission has a church. Like, if you miss that, all of scripture and this is theology, and I'd love to hear anybody challenge that. God's mission is to seek and to save the lost. God's mission is to get all of his kids back, those that were riddled in sin, far from him. This is why Jesus became flesh. This is why Jesus perfectly fulfills the law, dies our death, rises again to give us hope in this life and in the life to come. And now he's mobilizing a church to bring his word into the world, to be salt and light in a dark and dying world, and and to let people know that God's done it all and he wants to continually remind us how much he loves us through the sacraments. Like this is not I don't think this should be a debate at all and then we're going to trust one another in our various contexts to handle that said. Confession for the sake of the found, for the sake of discipleship, for the sake of disciples being released to care for those who are far from God in our various vocations Like this is like Lutheranism 101.
Speaker 1:I don't even know why there is a debate on this. So, yeah, I think it's more. I think it's more sociological, I think it's more like I talked about the hurting, the anxiety. I think it's more like I talked about the hurting, the anxiety of the world going in a certain direction and then the church kind of knee jerk reacting to that. We can't be like the world. This is going to compromise. Jesus says my kingdom is not of this world and so we've got to keep all of our wonderful, our Lutheran distinctives, two kinds of righteousness, the two realms, the right and the left, like we've got all of these wonderful handles for us. But it does require leaders taking responsibility for self and in the group of people that they have led, taking responsibility for bad behavior. People talking about people rather than to people, people developing these small, because I think our biggest issue in the LCMS, having talked to a lot of people on both sides of the proverbial aisle, is the hurting tribalism that is taking place and having an ever narrower definition of my people.
Speaker 1:Let me just speak into this. Jesus was crucified because he didn't narrow down, he expanded out. All of these people are my people he eats and hangs out with. Can you believe so-and-so is hanging out with Tim Allman and Zach Zender?
Speaker 1:Jesus was ridiculed for hanging out with the other the tax collector, the sinner, those who are far from and so we have narrowly understood what it means to be a part of the church and I think we've forgotten the way Jesus did ministry and why he was crucified because he didn't play the Pharisees game, he reserved the hardest words inside the church, right.
Speaker 1:And so where there is Phariseeism, we're trying to have our identity be anything other than baptized as a child of God. We're making our identity based on who we hang out with, rather than the one who hangs out with us the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit by grace, through faith. Like this is very, very dysfunctional and needs leaders to confess it and invite one another. Hey, I have a lot to learn from that person. I got a lot. I'll just be specific. Like there are brothers who are in different contexts who deeply love the liturgy deeply love and I deeply love the liturgy. Like they've learned certain things, though that may be helpful for me in telling the why behind the what of, why the Lutheran liturgy is helpful. Like that's great.
Speaker 3:But are we even talking to one another? I don't know that. We are Zach thoughts there. Are we talking to one another? I don train leaders that I know we're the most that I know of. There's just very few paths and there's not relevant paths for training up leaders today that don't require moving and just upheaval of our families because we want everybody to fit into that one system. Now, once you go through that system, there's still not a level of trust. I've went through the system and there's not a lot of trust sometimes. But what helps is when I get to talk to a Christian brother and they talk to me and I talk to them and we get to hear one another's stories.
Speaker 3:I'm a part of our circuit here in Omaha and King of Kings has always kind of been known as one of the more modern contemporary expressions, and so once or twice some of my brothers have asked me questions about why we do things the way we do things and I'm able to share our answer and whether they agree with my answer, whether I agree with their answer. Like we still like each other, we're on the same team and because we're talking to one another and I think that's one of the cool things like with my red letter world, tim, is that I do. You know there's a lot of like-minded people that you know worship in the same way or that would share a lot of my characteristics with how we do ministry, but there's also a lot that don't. There's a lot of churches that do things different, and I think what I love about the red letter side of things is we try to keep things as focused and as unified on Jesus as we can, because I'm hoping, I am hoping and praying that at least we can unify on Jesus is our Savior and Lord is about putting his words into practice. I'm hoping we can unify that. This is who Jesus is and it's important that we put his words into practice, and I've found that to be unifying, and it's also opened up doors for me to talk with some people that I probably wouldn't have talked with in our natural setting or that they wouldn't have talked with me, and I love getting into conversations and helping churches that think differently and are different, and we're also, by the way, way more than just Lutheran Church Missouri Synod and I love the fact that our justification by grace, through faith undertones is now bringing a sanctification answer with it that's now impacting more so than just our denomination, and I want to tell our denomination and our leaders we've got really great stuff in here that others are listening to out there and it's making a difference. But we need to get it out there and that's what we're trying to do is get this out there and it really can make a difference.
Speaker 3:And so to me it boils down to trust. And if we don't talk to one another, how can we trust one another? And if we're putting it all into one system and then we don't even trust that that system raises up the people. You know it's, it's crazy Like there's so many people right now that, as they're planning for the national youth gathering next year, that have went through our system and played by the rules and done everything the right way that cannot even get approved by denominational leadership right now, that now the whole thing is way behind schedule for planning, and I don't even know if I'm supposed to say that, but it's like crazy. There's just no trust in our system for the people that we've made into one system and they're saying we can't add any other systems to it. So I don't get how this is going to work out in the end.
Speaker 3:Well, if we continue to do what we're doing, we've got to change up something, and to me, it does. That's why I love what you're doing, tim, and you know I'm a constant supporter of you, and Unite Leadership Collective is you are. You are saying we're going to train up leaders and and we're going to go, and cool, I'm with you, man. We got to train up leaders. We need, we need disciples. Let's do this and let's go, and God be with us. And we're going to make mistakes, by the way, as we do it, and I'm so grateful that when we make mistakes, that we've got the grace of God and we've got each other and a large number of people that are with us in our corner to say we're going to keep moving because the gospel and the kingdom of God is bigger and above all these things that we're talking about today.
Speaker 1:That's good man. There is a resolution that's being put forward about the prior approval list to create more transparency and, honestly, greater trust hopefully, god willing, with synodical leadership, because there's a lot that happens behind closed doors and I think it's about identity politics in our small little corner of the kingdom, rather than actual substance and content, because what the resolution basically says if you want to send me an email, tallman at cglchurchorg what it basically says is, hey, if they're not on, if they're not approved for whatever speaking at National Youth Gathering or for a position at one of our universities, seminaries, etc. Would you please bring charges as to why they're not approved? What, heresy sir, have they spoken that keeps them from being on said list? Like, you got to bring that stuff public.
Speaker 1:There are some people that believe and we're going to have one of our brothers on, greg Bierce, here who's been on there's a story to be shared and it's really, really. I'm not even going to get into it right now. It's very, very dysfunctional, but the heart of it is Matthew 18, not being followed and even being justified, saying I don't have to talk about you to you. I can talk about you to other people because you're in a public position, like how dysfunctional is that? And we need to bring what's in the dark into the light, and this is one attempt to do to do that, and it it cause trust is, is eroding and it's unfortunate. So let's go back to red.
Speaker 3:Yeah, real quick, though, like I was super honored and blessed. That was a like a monumental, you know, moment in my life to lead from the stage the youth gathering in 2022. And like this is the beautiful, like I don't know that there's anything more beautiful than the national youth gathering that we put on every three years. And and like the sad part about it is because all this stuff is just getting kicked down. The, the, the can just keeps getting kicked down and there's no resolution is the people that are going to lose out on the end of this are the receiving end. It's our Gen Z, it's our high schoolers, and they're going to get a shadow version of what could have been, because a few people at the top cannot proceed forward with this because they don't like it for whatever reason.
Speaker 3:And it's crazy, like the only things they show about the 2022 National Youth Gathering are the things from the traditional worship service where we're doing the sacrament and where our president preaches. And why would we not want to highlight this stuff and share with the rest of the world? This is the best of the best of the LCMS coming together, and there's nothing being shown from some of the really amazing things. What's crazy is, then we'll also then highlight, like that we brought in a concert or a team who's amazing for King and Country, who are not Lutheran. So, like I, don't get what we do and why we highlight certain things and why we limit the gospel in certain ways and at the end of it, the people that are paying for it are the next generation and they may not even know that, but it will be unless they get their act together.
Speaker 3:And the team that works on the youth gathering they're fabulous, they're going to do everything they can to try to rise above the ridiculous leadership at the top and still put out an amazing few days for our children and our youth to have a great experience. I believe in them, I trust in them, but I'm also wondering will they even be able to do it? Or have they been so hampered, or will they be so hampered that this becomes a real shadow of what it's been? And I hope it doesn't, because to me it's one of the seminal things. Where you've got musicians, you've got artists, you've got speakers, you've got over and over and over some of the best of the best and like we don't share any of that. We just share that we had a traditional worship service with sacrament on Sunday and share that. That's fine, but where's the other stuff? Like we got so much good stuff going on in our denomination and it's not getting shared.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, that's that is true. The full story is not being shared in a number of our publications. And my kids I got three high schoolers, zach. They're already signed up.
Speaker 1:I just actually filled out the paperwork for them to go. Your boys are going as well. I like. It was such a formative time for me going to the national youth gathering. It was in Atlanta back in the day and then that was one of the milestone kind of events that said, wow, ministry could be for you. And I see all these other kids who, in their various vocations, are now out and I don't. Is it going to be a shadow of what it's been in the past? That would be very, very unfortunate. And it's remarkably Lutheran dude.
Speaker 1:Anybody that says we're married to these forms in the LCMS. These forms become the idol rather than what the forms point to. And no one can go to the National Youth Gathering and say you know what? Jesus wasn't talked about there. Jesus is obviously not the center. No, jesus is the center point of the entire experience. And then kids falling more in love by the Spirit's power, with Scripture and creative expressions of the gospel.
Speaker 1:Why is that liberal? Why is that counter to? It's really, really hampering the next generation. Where are a lot of our let's just talk this our churches are a little little. There's nothing against small church Like this isn't a small, but we have a higher percentage of the larger churches have a higher percentage of kids that ended up going and experiencing this.
Speaker 1:And if it's not even commensurate with what they get at their local level, they're looking at like what kind of church body is this? This is bad. I'm going to use a worldly term. This is really bad marketing. Lcms Really bad marketing not to highlight what the Lord has done in the National Youth Gathering. I know this has been a burr in your saddle for a number of years. For a number of you in higher level leadership, it's been a burr like if we could just get rid of this. Come on, man, in the local church are there sometimes things that you're like you know, I don't know that I actually do that that tradition let's just bring. I think a lot of times when you talk national, you just need to bring it down local. You know Well, like I don't know about that youth group, if I'd actually lead it like that, like some pastors may say, but for the sake of like that generation connecting, I don't know if I'd play all those risky games or whatever, but for the sake of that generation connecting, it'd be sin for me as a leader to get in the way of that Take it up to the national level and we're making the same kind of error. At this point, zach, I'll let you land that plane. We can go off on the. I don't think I've ever actually gone off this long.
Speaker 1:About the National Youth Gathering, let me say this you were awesome, it was cool to be connected. My kids were like because my daughter went and they're like, you know, zach Zender, oh wow, zach's cool, zach's cool, and they thought you were way younger than you actually are right, because, anyway, it was kind of a funny event. But there is something to let me land the plane here. There is something to the larger gathering. Right, think about Jesus. Let's bring it to Jesus. Jesus fed the disciples could have said I don't know, there was a few hundred, 5,000 people, not mentioning kids and their moms. This is a huge stadium type event where Jesus showed up and showed off. We can have the smaller, we have to have the smaller, but there's also space for these larger like oh wow, you too, I'm not alone, let's go on mission. I mean, that's the vibe that the National Youth Gathering has had over the years and to lose that would be a big time loss for the LCMS. Zach, land that plane.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I would. I would just tell you, tim, it's. It's not on the marketing and how we limit this is not on the people that are in the day-to-day of planning the gathering. They're the greatest people and they're ready to go and they believe in it, they love it, they're going to give their everything for it. It's somewhere else, it's happening somewhere else where it gets limited and I just I don't understand it.
Speaker 1:Yep, all right. Hey, let's go to something you do understand, which is Red Letter. Talk about the journey of Red Letter, like your favorite parts of what the Lord's done now moving from the cross after 11 years. To start this while you were at the cross, praise God, to then now it's. There can be ups and downs, I think. Just get us behind the scenes a little bit, because you and I talk all the time, so I definitely know it. But, like I think a lot of times people could look at Red Letter and, oh, zach's probably making all sorts of money, and they got there's a big thing. You know they're going beyond the LCMS and so, but now it's, it's an entrepreneurial venture and it can be a little like oh gosh, god, I have to rely on you through this season. I'm going to put in the work, but I'm going to release it. Release it to you. Tell the red letter story a little bit, Zach.
Speaker 3:Yeah, man, it's something that I never really planned on. God put this idea in me in 2011 that the best way to follow Jesus is to follow Jesus. That discipleship isn't easy, but understanding it is, and I think sometimes we overcomplicate discipleship and disciple making at the start of it, and I think the wrong first question that a lot of people and church leaders are asking is how do I make disciples? And the better first question is are you committed to following Jesus? Cause, like we don't need to reinvent anything, like let's just go back and do what he said, and that was the initial idea was I don't know how to tell these people how to be disciples, but I can just tell them to read Jesus's words and put them into practice, and so that's what we did in 2011. I did 40 blogs on it and just took random commands of Jesus, random red letters of Jesus with a Greek imperative and, you know, do what he said. So some days were more like internal abide in my word. And so the challenge today is hey, read God's word for 30 minutes and share what you learned. Some were more external. You know, love your neighbor as yourself, and so, physically, literally, go do something to love your neighbor today and share what you did, and it was a really great experience.
Speaker 3:In 40 days my little church plan at that point, which had just started what happened? Our church, little church, grew. Our community is always better when you put the words of Jesus into practice. But the one that was the most surprising is longtime Christians talked about how fulfilling and rewarding it was to follow Jesus, and I knew there was something bigger with this, so we did it again the next year. I tweaked it a little bit in 2012. And then, over a five-year process from there, developed five targets in Red Letter Challenge. That probably, is the one human element that I think is really really, as I reverse engineer, like God, why have you anointed this project? Obviously, the main idea is great, and it's not mine, it's Jesus's. Do what I said. It tells us that in the end of the Sermon on the Mount, probably the human element that's really good is organizing around these five targets, because I think that's where people don't get to is like, what is it? That's a really great idea to follow Jesus, but like break it down a little more. And so we broke it down into five targets that we felt like came out of the mouth of Jesus Be forgive, serve, give and go. Be forgive, serve, give and go, and that sort of gave it some sticky stickiness, some staying power. That these five targets are something, then, that I can form my life around, I can form my church around. And is that all that Jesus said is an exhaustive list? No, but it's a really great place to start and most people in most churches don't have that language in place or that starting point.
Speaker 3:And so 2018, january is when Red Letter Challenge, the official 40-day challenge, came out after seven years, and it was one of those things I was like cool God. I feel like I was faithful to that project. We put some good investment into it and had a couple of partners that helped us get it to where it was in the beginning. Some family, friends and they sacrificed to do that and churches started picking it up and have a great experience because with the books we had, you know everything else that you'd want for a 40 day turnkey experience at your church. And by the end of 19, 2019, allison and I were really left with like a real dilemma, like the church was growing, but it was really complex and we had our probably our hardest year in 2019, even before COVID, we lost the lease on our space and had to move portable and at that point we were 600, 700 people a weekend having to go portable in a small town and it was just really a challenging year.
Speaker 3:On top of that, red letter stuff was like just exploding and we're like God, what are we doing? What are you doing here? And so, through a lot of prayer, I talked with Kerry Newhoff. He came down to Orlando and we'd gotten to know each other a little bit and he said something that really stuck out to me that you know when you, when you put 10 times in the energy over here and over here was the cross and you get one out of it Um, but then you put one times the energy over here and here would be red letter and you get 10 out of it Um, he's like.
Speaker 3:That, for me, was when I knew in his world, the podcast was his other answer or thing that he was wrestling with, he's like. And that's when I really kind of knew that God was moving me more towards that and that really resonated with me. Not that what I was putting into the cross wasn't great, it was so fun. I loved, loved, loved that 11 year chapter and I miss it in some ways because I'm entrepreneurial. I loved being a part of a new thing where God was doing something. But we really, really felt like God was here.
Speaker 3:And our job in life is not to uh, not to say I'm going to go here and God you show up, it's just to say God, where are you?
Speaker 3:And that's where we really felt like he was and and those that heard the first few minutes know that it kind of fit my entrepreneurial spirit anyway and my wife. Her passion is writing and it allowed her an outlet to do what she does and what she loves, because she writes all of our kids material and so much more for us and she even helps me in my writing, which I probably need. And so it just really allowed us an opportunity to impact the Capital C Church, which is a much different call than the local C Church, but the local C Church is still really important to me and I'm a fourth generation pastor and so I'm still a teaching pastor at King of Kings and also heavily involved in the multi-site part of what we do at King of Kings and so still here at office three times a week, three days a week, I should say. So I care about the local church, but also it's given me an opportunity to impact the Capital C Church too.
Speaker 1:Hey, man, grateful that you listened to the Lord's call and I know that was a tough. You and I were talking through, praying, through all of those things, and the Lord has blessed. It's kind of got to be a unique experience. To birth I got a little bit of an experience having launched the table and then, five years later, this was a meal and worship inclusive of, but not exclusively, for the working, poor and homeless in Denver. And leaving that and coming here 12 years ago, man, there was some like heavy grief, guilt and then release, guilt and then release, and I bet you've kind of gone through through all of those kinds of cycles of saying, hey, it wasn't mine to begin with, this is, this is your thing, and I think that's the way we kind of have to approach anything entrepreneurial. Right, I mean, it's not you Like red letter isn't even, it's the Lord's thing, and so, whatever he wants to, there's some freedom that comes out of that. Zach isn't there Talking to kind of the freedom of release to the Lord.
Speaker 3:Yeah for sure. And I think what it allows me to see, Tim, is that we're called to continually try to invent and new things and risk for where we know God is already. And so when we think about it from the LCMS standpoint, especially from a training up of leaders and I'm more in the discipleship than the leadership space, but they're so intertwined right To me not all leaders are disciples, but every disciple is a leader, and so we need both discipleship and leadership, and so I'm more on the discipleship day-to-day stuff than the leadership stuff. But I do think that, at the end of the day, the LCMS and the future of our LCMS really does depend on are we training up leaders? Now, I would hope that these leaders are disciples. So I would want to come underneath the leaders and really put and pour a lot more discipleship stuff into them than we currently do so that they're a more effective leader. But are we training up leaders?
Speaker 3:And so what I think this allows us to do is we know that Jesus is for the church, he instituted it, and the gates of hell will not prevail against capital C the church. So we know he's for that. So what that allows us to do is, underneath that we can try new things and we can risk new things, that we can try new things and we can risk new things. And then guess what? If the Lord blesses it and anoints it, we can continue to walk in that path. And if the Lord doesn't bless it and anoint it and there's no momentum and movement there, we can say we tried and we can try something else again. It allows us a spirit to try and risk and innovate and then, when you see God show up, you step more fully into it.
Speaker 3:I think, from a personal level, from a professional level and from a corporate level, these are the things that we're called to do. Is God, where are you? Where have you already promised to be, and how can I put myself there to use my gifts to the power of the Holy Spirit to be where you already are? And provided you do something cool, let's step even more into it.
Speaker 1:Amen, amen. Hey, let's talk about risk in like the early church, because I think you live, we've seen the radical shift in our culture, you know, and Christians are obviously not in the majority. We're an increasing minority kind of kingdom people, those that are people of the book, those that are people of the way of Jesus, and so I think embracing some of the struggles of the early church are helpful for us, like think about the societal and cultural and theological risk of elevating Gentiles to equal status with Jews, I think, because that is, I mean, Book of Galatians, like the second half of the Book of Acts. It's like trying to figure out what do we do with these people who are the outsiders who have been brought near. That was a risky proposition then, for Peter, right, I mean Acts chapter, and Peter had his kind of waffling moments. You know Acts 10 moment, when why should you call anything that God has created clean, unclean? Like let them in and then I love it.
Speaker 1:The end of Acts 10, it's the Gentile conversion. Can anyone withhold water from these guys? And it's kind of like a Bueller. You know Bueller, is anybody going to speak? Okay, baptize them, bring them in, like that was societally and theologically risky. Anything more to say to that Zach? Yeah, just that yeah, so much.
Speaker 3:Acts 10 is such a great, great chapter where you have God working through Cornelius, this amazing Gentile that somehow was God fearing, even though you know his culture and everything else was maybe pressing against it.
Speaker 3:So God is working on him. And then, all of a sudden, peter goes up to the roof to pray at noon, which, by the way, is not a normal time. I think we should give it up for Peter. We talk about all the bad things he does, but like he's praying at a time he didn't have to, and but he has to pray because, like, think about being a part of that early church and how confusing and hard it was and how his brothers are getting martyred for the faith. And now this guy that was persecuting is now a part of the church somehow and I need to welcome him. I probably need to work out my own inner feelings about how I feel about Saul, paul, and like there's so much going on.
Speaker 3:And then and then in Acts nine I think it's Acts nine right before that chapter like Peter's, peter's healing, healing people, like by the things that Jesus was, like he's touching hems of God, like they're touching him and like he's. How prideful I would be, you would be, we would be tempted to be like. So I love the fact that Peter prays at noon and that he's hungry and he dreams about meat. I think that's really anybody that's ever dreamt about meat, I think loves that chapter. But here's what I love about this one the entrepreneurial, the risk side comes in, what God was doing in that story, and again he has to tell Peter three times, because things come in threes for Peter. What God is telling Peter in that story is stuff, meat, meat that was previously off the menu is now on the menu. There's a new way to do things now and and and I need you to be the spokesperson for that and Peter's still not sure what to do about that, but in God's sovereignty he's already prepared Cornelius to come and to meet with Peter to share like. Here's the interpretation of that.
Speaker 3:I love that God is working on two different people in two different places on one mission, and I think technologically we can do that so much more today than we've ever been able to. But the fact that the church was doing great things, mighty and powerful things, and yet in Acts 10 needed to be corrected and needed a bigger mission and needed to be told by God. What was once off-menu is now on-menu, and so, as we look, this especially for me, tim is really important with the technological world we live in we're doing a podcast that right now we would not have been able to do 25 years ago. There's this thing called the internet that this will land on, and this was not on the menu 25 years ago. It is on the menu now, and what also was not on the menu 25 years ago, it is on the menu now. And what also was not on the menu 25 years ago was to train anybody online to become a leader of our church.
Speaker 3:But what is on the menu now is you can do super good, effective training online in localized, regionalized contexts and people almost every denomination that's worth their salt has figured out how to do that, and we have not. And so what I want to say is what the Lord told Peter in Acts, chapter 10, what was off menu is now on menu, which means we got to change the way we do things, and so that to me is like entrepreneurial, it's risky, it's a course correction for the greater capital city church, because times have changed. And so what does that look like for us today? It means we can do things differently. We can train online. We can have even video teachings in other campuses, because if we're not training up the pastors, we've got to get a message that is grace-based Lutheran from an ordained pastor into those places. If we're going to be in this limited structure, we've got to figure out how we're going to do that, and there's not enough people to go around.
Speaker 3:And so cool, now you can listen to a message from anybody, from any Lutheran church if they have the technological advances to do that, and also take a little bit of the pressure off of the pastor who is pastoring a church doing it by himself. That's probably overtapped, because there's not leaders in his context being being trained up. So you can actually be an ally, I can be an ally. We can be an ally for one another and provide training that is different today than it was 25 years ago. It's through a video screen. Now I'm not saying it's the most effective and that's the only way to do things, but it's a way it's effective, it's working in other places and so, anyway, you got me going and I just happened to be doing a study on Acts 10 not that long ago, and so I'm ready to rock with that one.
Speaker 1:So off menu, on menu. Dude, that's a. That's a legit rhetorical hook right there. The Holy Spirit is expanding our menu options today. Now I don't know if we win the LCMS. We're definitely not like the Cheesecake Factory. Like Cheesecake Factory, that menu is ginormous. Like I don't think we need all that, but we need to be somewhere. Okay, from fast food I'm just going with the metaphor From fast food to Cheesecake Factory. There are these like walk-up stations where it's a little bit faster, but they're still kind of like. The LCMS just seems to move in that direction. Please, please. So anyway, it's so good. Zach, I've said so much on that topic. Thanks for doubling down on it. We have a leadership development shortage and opportunity today and we need to tell more stories. Let's close with hope. I mean, we've talked a lot about some opportunities for growth in the LCMS. Today let's talk about the stories of hope. We need to tell those more. What makes you, as you look at the broader landscape of the LCMS, what gives you hope and joy? Zach?
Speaker 3:Jesus is still on his throne and he's working through people and no matter what we do that's been my message this election season no matter what we do or no matter who gets elected, jesus ain't getting off the throne again. He got off for 34 time, stamped years to redeem us and rescue us. But he very firmly and squarely at least from a metaphorical, figurative standpoint that the Lord invites us into this imagery to think about and to dwell on he took back his seat on the throne in Revelation 4 and 5 and Hebrews 9 and 10. He paid with his own blood and retook his seat, and the more we tether to that Jesus, who is seated on the throne and sovereign and in control, the more, from a personal and a church corporate level, we're going to be okay.
Speaker 3:I think that's what I love about being a part of red letter. I've been able to travel a little bit more the last few weeks. There's a couple of seasons of the year where I travel a good bit and then there's many seasons where I don't. I've been in one of those, and so it's nice to get to meet and see people that your work you know. You don't know like is your work impacting, you know people's lives or not, and and so in the last three weeks, tim, I've gotten to hear these, these things individually and corporately. Um, I got to hear, uh, a family from a family.
Speaker 3:I was at a conference and they they said, hey, through red letter challenge, one of the challenges was to tithe for six months, and me and my husband did that, and you're the reason why. And now, of course, it was God through the Holy spirit, through me, through my words, and you're the reason why. And now, of course, it was God, through the Holy Spirit, through me, through my words, through the page, that did that. But and they've never stopped since then, and and and they've talked about the joy that they have in generosity. Jesus is generous.
Speaker 3:And now said he talked with a man that for 70 years has kept a secret inside of an infidelity and that the people you know that are in his life that would have cared, have all passed on. And he said I've never told a soul and I'm telling you, pastor, um, about this sin and I need your forgiveness. And the pastor, like in him were in tears and the pastor, like, obviously forgave him. And then the guy said if you need to tell this story to anybody else so that they can, too, have freedom, share the story. And so, like, the grace of Jesus is so big and it covers enough of us, and so those are like personal stories I love hearing on the church side we had a actually a huge mega church, like 6,000 people, multiple campuses in Georgia that just went through Red Letter Challenge and at the end of it they said we had hundreds of people that through this challenge, like recommitted to practicing the words of Jesus, and I say none of that like about my challenge, but what we try to do in the challenges is center back on this Jesus guy.
Speaker 3:That is pretty amazing, that we all love, that is a friend, that is a brother, but right now is the King of Kings seated on his throne, sovereign and in control. And so what brings me hope is nothing I do or nothing you do will take God off of his throne. Nothing anybody else does or leadership does that I disagree with will take God off of his throne. Nothing anybody else does or leadership does that I disagree with will take God off of his throne. He's still there and his grace is still for me and for others, and the more people get in touch with that person, the person of Jesus Christ. There's always a future with Jesus Christ.
Speaker 3:I don't know what this looks like on a denominational standpoint. Honestly, I think things are really ramping up, um, from the people that are tired of just the limiting, and I think that there's going to be some good things coming, um, I hope, and. But what I do know is that Jesus is good and he's still on his throne and eternity looks pretty fun, uh, the more I've studied revelation, uh, I'm pretty. I'm pretty pumped about getting there. Amen dude.
Speaker 1:There's this like trendy TikTok dude. I don't know Christian dude who has this like rant on Tetelestai. Have you seen that one?
Speaker 3:I have not. I want to hear more though.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh. No, well, he, just that's the word, for it is finished, jesus Tetelestai, you know. And we've preached it on good Friday. But it has a judicial component to it. We've been justified or paid in guilt, paid in full, and it's been placed on on Jesus. Our guilt is fully placed on him. It's, it's finished. The crushing weight of our sin is finished. And then it also has a military component, kind of the Mel Gibson Patriot or Gladiator, you know, kind of what was the movie where he got? It was no. What's the Mel Gibson movie where he's on his, he's getting ripped to shreds on that. Come on, why am I trying to blink.
Speaker 3:Are you talking about the Passion of the Christ?
Speaker 1:No, no, no, no, no. Mel Gibson no, he's an actor, he's an actor. No, no, mel Gibson Not. No, he's an actor, he's an actor and he's on, he's getting anyway.
Speaker 1:Someone knows the movie I'm talking about, but he has this like loud, loud, guttural cry at the end of his life, and that's the loud, guttural cry from Jesus on. It is finished and it's a military victory as well has been won. The enemy, sin, death and the devil have been defeated, and so, because of that, jesus is on the throne, the crucified, risen, reigning, one that we don't have to be afraid. We can have profound faith and confidence. We can disagree agreeably. You are not the core of you is not your idea, your opinion, your beliefs. Your core is a child of God. So if you disagree with anything Zach and I said today and you want to come on and have a loving, brotherly conversation around something I give this invitation all the time, very, very few take me up on it. If you actually want to talk about the issues that are taking place in the local church and how the decisions that leaders make have a trickle down effect to those of us at the grassroots just trying to be faithful to reach people with the gospel. If you want to honestly talk about that in any leadership position, you get a fast track to the front of the line on a lead time podcast, because I don't know that many of us are talking about that today and we want to welcome godly dialogue and debates.
Speaker 1:After much discussion, you look at the book of Acts 2, after much discussion and great debate this was on the Gentile inclusion right. They spent time together. Well, and I have to believe. What was Jesus really about? Oh yeah, it wasn't just for Israel, it wasn't just for the Jews. I think from the very beginning God has this grand story.
Speaker 1:So what should we do to bring them in? Should they do page 5 and 15 of the liturgy? Should they do all of these different things? No, Just let them in. Don't eat meat sacrificed to idols though they kind of have this, well, it's not really anything anyways a little bit later on and then be sexually pure, honor the body, the temple of the Holy Spirit that God has given you. Outside of that, the Holy Spirit's going to help us figure it out in our respective context. Can we have that sort of a posture today in the Missouri Synod, for the sake of the wonderful theology that's been passed down to us. I pray the answer is yes, but it's going to take more dialogue rather than less. So, hey, zach, close with tell people Red Letter. Where can they find all of the great content that you guys bring out?
Speaker 3:yeah, thanks, tim, for what you do. Man, I love you as a brother, as an accountability partner. I'm in your corner. Um, let's create leaders together. So thank you for having the hard conversations. Uh, I do pray that it it stirs. It stirs us, I know it's stirring us in the right way. Um, so keep keep going, man, and I'm in your corner.
Speaker 3:If anybody wants to connect with me, yeah, I don't do much on socials, actually personally, but our website, redletterchallengecom, has everything there and my contact info and all that good stuff. It's not hard to find on there. So, redletterchallengecom, and if I can help any pastor or any church leader, if you want to do a 40 day challenge or want to go even deeper with creating a disciple making strategy at your church, just email me, zach Z-A-C-H at redletterchallengecom. Zach at redletterchallengecom, and I would love to talk with you and help you. And let's create great disciples, because we know with great disciples we become great leaders and with enough great leaders, we're gonna have a great church body and we need more great leaders. So let's do this.
Speaker 1:Amen, hey, dude, proud of you, love you, love the mission. The best days are ahead of us, we have to believe this because Jesus is on the throne.
Speaker 1:The best days are ahead for the Missouri Synod, definitely for the wider church, definitely for King of Kings. We're praying for Christ Greenfield too, and for ULC and Red Letter and all the things that we do to try to listen, learn and care for the wider church. It's a good day. Go make it a great day. This is Lead Time. We'll be back next week or maybe even later on this week with another fresh episode Right on ZZ. Love you, buddy, see you, dude.
Speaker 3:Love you too, man.
Speaker 2:You've been listening to Lead Time, a podcast of the Unite Leadership Collective. The ULC's mission is to collaborate with the local church to discover, develop and deploy leaders through biblical Lutheran doctrine and innovative methods To partner with us in this gospel message. Subscribe to our channel, then go to theuniteleadershiporg to create your free login for exclusive material and resources and then to explore ways in which you can sponsor an episode. Thanks for listening and stay tuned for next week's episode.