Lead Time
Lead Time
The Challenge of Diversity in the LCMS with Pastor Gregory Manning
This podcast episode explores the transformative journey of Broadmoor Community Church under Rev. Gregory Manning, emphasizing the importance of inclusivity and community engagement in urban ministries. Listeners gain insight into the challenges and strategies of creating a culturally relevant church that serves a diverse congregation, particularly within the context of the Lutheran Church's historical complexities around race and identity.
• Rev. Manning's journey from Kansas City to New Orleans
• Transformation of Broadmoor Community Church's identity
• Historical barriers of racism and exclusion in church dynamics
• Importance of meaningful worship that fosters emotional participation
• Necessity for indigenous leadership within urban settings
• Calls for systemic change in theological education accessibility
• Creating an engaging church that reflects its community
• The need for candid discussions about diversity within the Lutheran Church
• Encouragement of a culture that embraces liberation and faith exploration
If this podcast has blessed you, please like and subscribe where applicable. Comments help keep the conversation going. If you have strong views that differ from what you heard here, we’d love to get you on the podcast.
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Speaker 2:Welcome to Lead Time, tim Allman, here with Jack Kauberg. Pray, the joy of Jesus is walking alongside you today, that you are geared up, excited to learn with us. Before I introduce our guest, jack, how are you doing, man Loving life?
Speaker 3:I'm doing fantastic. Yeah, we're loving it here in Arizona. We're back to the Chamber of Commerce weather again.
Speaker 2:From hell to Chamber of Commerce in a couple, three weeks, yeah, so we get to hang out with a brother that I met in New Orleans about a year ago now and I've been looking forward to following up to get to know Reverend Gregory Manning from Broadmoor Community Church and we'll talk about how that changed from Gloria Day Lutheran Church. But he's been there at Broadmoor Community, really in the heart of New Orleans, for the past 13 years and he's a 25-year pastor in the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, a graduate of Concordia Theological Seminary in Fort Wayne. You're going to hear an amazing story of mission and love and care and, in the best sense of the word, inclusion arms open wide to reach as many people as possible with the gospel. I was just overwhelmed with the hospitality that I received and we were at the Large Church Network gathering. He hosted us in New Orleans and it was just an unbelievable Holy Spirit, Scripture-centered, Jesus-centered experience and I'm just excited to learn with you today. So how are you doing, Pastor Manny?
Speaker 4:Man, I'm doing great, Tim. Thanks for asking. It's 71 degrees in New Orleans today, so we are in winter now.
Speaker 2:That's winter, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a beautiful place to live. What an amazing community. So 20 or so years ago, did you ever think that you'd be pastoring a church in urban New Orleans?
Speaker 4:Just use that as a jumping off point to tell your story Kansas, and you know, in the wilderness there it was not a not, it was a very challenging ministry. I'll say in New Orleans, I mean in Kansas City, kansas, and no, I did not, not ever think that I'd be in New Orleans. But God, god had a plan and I am happy that he did. It was just a great move from from Kansas City to New Orleans and a whole different spirit.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So tell the story now of what God has kind of done at Broadmoor over the last 13 years. How has he changed that?
Speaker 4:community. So Broadmoor Community Church previously, as you said, tim Gloria Day Lutheran Church was founded in 1927 in a community that was predominantly white and Jewish. I would love to tell a story that across the street from our church is a small park and a very small park, but there was a woman that was sitting in the park one day, 89 years old, and this is about five years ago. I see her periodically now. She's about, you know, she's 94 now but she was sitting in the park and she passed out while sitting on a bench in the park and I had to call the EMS to come and get her and to take care of her. And she later told me. She said, pastor, thank you so much for calling the EMS to come and get me. She said, but I want to tell you why I was sitting in the park. She said I was sitting in the park just thinking about how, when I was a child, I was not permitted to sit in that park. It was an all-white area, so we weren't even allowed to come into this area, and so I was just thinking about the joy I have now of being able to sit there. And that really defines Broadmoor Community Church. In 1927. It was not a place that Black people were even allowed to be it and it really had that reputation over it until 2011,.
Speaker 4:When I became pastor. In 2011, I became pastor. I became thus the first person of color ever to be a member of that time Gloria Day Lutheran Church, and I was called as mission developer to develop the mission there with five people there first pastor after Hurricane Katrina and to bring people in that community into the church, which alone has a story behind it, too, because of how I got there and that whole mission developer piece. But, being the first person of color there, we had to get people in the door and nobody thought that they're welcome. They saw it as a white church and people really have a hard time going up those stairs into the church and what they see as a white church and what was now and is now a black, white and Hispanic community. And so, being the first person of color there, we changed the name in 2016 to be Broadmoor Community Church, to take Gloria Day off the sign and Lutheran off the side, even though we're still Lutheran, and to get people in the door, and that's what we've done.
Speaker 2:Whoa. That's a huge shift and in many urban contexts we're in the Pacific Southwest District many urban communities, churches will not make that switch and unfortunately Churches will not make that switch and unfortunately it's the death of that local congregation. They don't shift. So how did you go about? I mean kindly, courageously, but clearly saying hey, we've got to become more like our community? Does this church actually reflect the heart of the multiracial community that is around us? Because if not, something has to change and the perception has to change. I can, I mean a strategic move, I would absolutely say, to go to Broadmoor Community Church. We're here for this community and we're going to reflect this community. Could you go a little bit deeper about how you went about making that change, greg Well?
Speaker 4:you know it was God's timing. As I look back, tim and Jack, if I were in, had tried to do that in Kansas City, kansas, it never would have worked. Totally different mindset, mind frame, spiritual temperature of that church in Kansas City was was just completely different. God's timing and what God changed and allowed to be, the atmosphere of what was then Gloria Day, was totally different.
Speaker 4:We have brought in some new people by that time who really understood what we needed to be. They were not lifelong Lutherans, so they didn't come with some baggage that we'd come with sometime and they kind of knew and understood what God was doing. They were in tune with the Spirit in such a way that they knew that. And so you know, it wasn't a big battle because, number one, there wasn't a lot of people by that time when we changed the name, maybe about 25 people. We had grown some from five people when I got there and so there was a lot of people and it was a lot of people with that, that, that connection to that name anymore. So you know, a lot of times in churches you have people who are, you know, tied and, I'll say, chained to the past and chained to the edifice, and there wasn't that anymore, and so people understood where we were going in that new vision and mission by that point.
Speaker 2:No, that's good, I just have a follow-up, jack I have a follow-up on that.
Speaker 3:So can you describe the thinking process behind that, why your community felt like that was a better type of name to reach the community? What was the thinking behind that?
Speaker 4:Yeah, so a couple of things, you know. Number one the thinking behind it was we've got a reputation in this community that was not framed and did not come about because the present people there the reputation of being a white church on that corner where people just passed by that was not built by the people or framed by the people at Broadmoor at that present time now, and so we knew that we needed to change the course of where we were going in order to get people in the door. I always say that in 1927, when the church was founded and had a big wrought iron sign out front that said Gloria Day, lutheran Church, people understood in that community what the words Gloria Day meant in Latin Glory to God. Gloria Day meant in Latin glory to God. Even though I took Latin in high school, I didn't understand that. When I was called to Gloria Day I thought is it a Hispanic church? It's that it was. It kind of had that ring to it. But you know, I always say when people started calling the church asking to talk to Gloria, the name wasn't working anymore.
Speaker 4:And then people have this pre-perception and this stereotype of what they see as Lutheran. Unfortunately, we haven't done a good job in Lutheran church of being very diverse and showing that we have a rainbow of people in the church, and so people see that name as being Lutheran as they create this image of I always say this bringing in the sheaves image. If you've ever watched Little House on the Prairie, it's you know. It's this old white building with people singing. We shall come rejoicing, bringing in the sheaves. They don't think that that's anywhere where people of any different color are welcome.
Speaker 4:So we had to do that, and we'll go back to what I said before too, that the biggest, I guess, challenge has been the understanding of the wider church in our community, meaning the greater Lutheran church body. There are people who still come to me and who will say, oh, your church isn't Lutheran anymore. No, we're still Lutheran. We just took that off the sign, and so that's kind of the word on the street. It always is that oh, broadmoor's not a Lutheran church. Yeah, to our Lutheran brothers and sisters who don't get that if we took Lutheran off the sign.
Speaker 3:What I'm hearing from you is that it allows people to come and visit your community without presuppositions about what the church is, and they get to learn about the church through the experience and the teaching of the church, rather than just the brand of the church. Is that right?
Speaker 4:We have to get them in the door first. I always think to myself you know, we have a very traditional looking building and so when people in the community of New Orleans, you know, see the church, their first question is, is it a Catholic church? Because it looks very Catholic on the outside. And so, you know, that creates a barrier and it looks very intimidating. And I often think to myself that if I were just a ordinary person that doesn't, a lay person that doesn't go to church, I would be so intimidated to walk up those steps to that church, underneath those arches, into that door. And so how do we eliminate those barriers to get them there? We had to get people in the door first, show them who we are and then let them know that we're a Lutheran church preaching the Lutheran doctrine. If we hadn't gotten them in the door, we would not be able to do that.
Speaker 2:Hey, greg, this is great. Why you kind of talk about the wider, whether it's the district and or the synod. Why do we struggle so much from your perspective in having diverse expressions of Lutheranism in our urban center? Because we're struggling the norm in the LCMS. So why do you think we struggle with diversity in the LCMS? Just general thoughts, and what are your thoughts about how? Because that's why we're having you on, because this is an opportunity for us in the LCMS today. But we've got to raise up one of them. I'll just say what I think we have to raise up more indigenous leaders in that respective community. What is the pathway to raise up the Pastor Mannings from within the New Orleans community who understand it and are going to grow with it as that community changes. That's one opportunity for growth. But yeah, speak at a high level and down to grassroots, if you don't mind.
Speaker 4:On that level, raising up indigenous leaders. We do make it much too difficult raising up indigenous leaders. We do make it much too difficult that pathway of getting leaders raised up, you know, sending them to the seminary, having that requirement that they be on one of our seminary campuses for even a whatever amount of time. It costs money, takes time away from their main job that they have, that brings money into their family, and so there are those barriers that are there and, quite frankly, the seminary campuses aren't a place and an atmosphere where a lot of students feel comfortable. It was not for me, as a person who's third generation Lutheran, being on the Fort Wayne campus, still it was not a place where I felt welcome to any extent Most of the time. It was a very, very challenging time those four years, and so that's one of the barriers.
Speaker 4:The other barrier is that a lot of district leaders and presidents and people in the Lutheran Church in general have not exposed themselves to other ways of doing things Culturally.
Speaker 4:They haven't been able to go throughout the nation and see that other pastors are doing it in a different way. That is also very powerful, that is also very glorifying to God and God-pleasing, that is very centered on the Lutheran doctrine but is also, at the same time, very culturally relevant. They just haven't seen that. In fact, I have a church member now who used to be Lutheran and went to Baptist and now back to Broadmoor, but she said oh, pastor, you do things that I've not seen any other Lutheran pastor do it like. And my response back to her is well, how many Lutheran churches have you actually been to? I've been to many over the course of my ministry and I've seen it done many different ways. But people get caught up in judgment on maybe three or four Lutheran churches that they've actually been to, and so we've got to expose ourselves, be willing to be open-minded, be willing to see the context in which different pastors are bringing the gospel to people, and we just have not allowed ourselves to expose ourselves to that.
Speaker 2:That's really good. Let's get into what people would experience. They go to Broadmoor, if you don't mind. I mean anybody can look online and kind of see it but what I experienced was a very liturgical expression that was still culturally important, sensitive. And there was, your band was awesome. I mean, there was a lot of great, there's clapping, there's just joy in the house of the Lord right, there's nothing wrong with that.
Speaker 2:But there still was kind of the guts of the liturgy that was there and in our you know, mostly white, anglo, upper middle class community, there's more of modern expression of worship. In one of our environments We've got another one that's way more high church robes et cetera. But the guts of the liturgy, from invocation to benediction, are like there, but culturally expressed in a way that is sensitive for what people are expecting, experiencing as they come into the house of the Lord in our context. So I think it's very faithful, but I don't. I think we're getting stuck in the and we've been stuck for quite a while. We're getting stuck in looking at the form rather than the function of the form, which is appoint people to Jesus in a contextually relevant, relevant way. So yeah, go deeper into the liturgics if you will.
Speaker 4:Well you know yeah, I mean when we, you know, when we talk about that can either be what, what I see as a strict adherence to what we know as traditional liturgy of the Lutheran Church, and then you can have a free-flowing liturgy, and that really hinges upon whether a pastor is able to do it and whether a pastor is very intentional about being free-flowing. With intentionality, I'll say about it. I mean I'm going to do a confession in absolution, but I'm going to do it in Gregory Manning fashion that maybe I can't even repeat, but I'm going to listen to the spirit and the people are going to get confession in absolution, but they won't even know that they're participating in confession in absolution, because I'm not going to call it that either out loud or on paper or whatever, because they may not get that, but they're going to be led in that way. And so, as you said, those elements are going to be there, but again in a free-flowing fashion which most of our community, being African American, are used to, that free-flowing and don't see the use for repeating words off of a page. Now that repetition works for some community In the communities, it doesn't work for ours. People would simply not get that. So it has to be free-flowing and people have to be liberated I love to use that word liberated to be able to be who they are.
Speaker 4:Because what I know and what many people know about the African-American community is that we talk back, we will speak back, and we encourage that speaking back and it's a call and response, it's an active participation in what's going on, so people can shout hallelujah, they can shout amen, they can give a response to what the pastor is saying in real time, and so that's part of the African-American experience. So it has to be that way to connect with the people, to let that emotion out and again, that emotion of being liberated. When I say you know often in the church that the Lord says you know, he who the Lord sets free is free indeed. So after I do the absolution, there is shouting, there is rejoicing, there is just a release right there, and we encourage that for people who know I've been set free. But that's not often the case in other churches that I go to they're kind of stoic've been set free, but that's not often the case in other churches that I go to. They're kind of stoic about being set free, but we as African-American people are not, and we want to bring that out and encourage people to just just let their their sometimes grief, let their sorrow out.
Speaker 4:Incidentally, that's why we have tissues in every seat at the church you office. We have a tissue box at every seat. And somebody came who wasn't familiar with the church. We have a tissue box at every seat. And somebody came who wasn't familiar with the church and they said do people cry a lot in this church? And I figured I don't know what, you know where they were coming from. But they were astonished that we had tissues. And it wasn't because it's cold or flu season, it's because people are emotional. In our church People will often cry and that's what we embrace. But all those elements are going to be there, but in a free-flowing fashion that says we're Lutheran and people will say, well, I've never experienced anything like this before. But they'll get it and they'll see it and they'll remind them and be familiar to them about something they may have experienced in life and they may not be able to put their finger on it, but it is lutheran, uh, in its skeletal form that's good.
Speaker 2:We, we love categories as lutherans, and so anything that smacks of emotion gets labeled. You're an emotionalist, right right.
Speaker 2:You're a hyper and you're placing your an enthusiast, right, and you're placing your emotion ahead of God, like and this is the case, like in charismatic churches, right that unless you're actually emotional then God hasn't descended to you. That's not what I hear you saying. I just, in your culture you just happen to be more externally emotional and so to hide that would be inauthentic in your worship expression. We had I got to tell you just a quick story. I was preaching about grief this is a couple months ago and in the space you know, 90% and white Anglo, you know, in the space there were, there was open, weeping, greg, a handful of people who'd lost, and it was. It was a wild experience I don't think, jack, you were in that, that space that morning but it was a wild experience to watch the community at first move from discomfort to okay and I just kept right on preaching, right and to acknowledgement, to acceptance, to like care for one another through that experience. But it had, it was, it was different. It was different.
Speaker 2:We don't have tissues in every pew, you know. Honestly I wish there were in our kind of stoic, mostly german, european. I wish there was more acceptance of the way God works in us and I pray that wouldn't be just labeled that this person's an enthusiast. No, they just are expressing the highs and the lows. As I read the Psalms, greg I mean David is very, very robust about the highest of highs and the lowest of lows. But for whatever reason, kind of a culture of stoicism has centered in us, and then we label one another because I've been called a Baptist preacher. Why? Because I'm just more passionate you know I'm louder.
Speaker 2:You know I come from a line of a very loud, maybe more aggressive, jesus centered, passionate preachers. You know that's just the line that I come from. That doesn't mean I'm not an Orthodox confessing Lutheran. For goodness sake, this is silly. This is very narrow thinking, jack. Any take on that? Before we kick back to Greg.
Speaker 3:I'm looking at on the screen right now, Article 6 of the Augsburg Confession, or not 6, 7, Article 7. It is not necessary that human traditions, that is, rites or ceremonies instituted by men, should be everywhere alike. This is our confession of faith. Right, we are the true church, not based on an exact, exactly the same expression of worship, word and sacrament. That's what defines us and that word and sacrament can look different, but it teaches the same message. It's sure it it.
Speaker 3:It proclaims the same message of Christ, even though the cultural context is different, but it teaches the same message. It proclaims the same message of Christ even though the cultural context is different, even though a flow of a service may be different, even though the dress is different and even though you may have a stage instead of an altar. Like all of these things, all of these things that are created, they are great for a community that understands the meaning of that and not great for a community that doesn't understand that. And you need to have something that works for that, you know, for a different type of community, and we need to be not just okay with it, we need to celebrate that, that there is word and sacrament being delivered with the same message, the same truth, the same forgiveness of sins in different communities, and that it crosses culture. Right, we need to just celebrate that and enjoy that. Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 4:We need to say that out loud more often. Our leaders in high places need to make sure that that is understood and we don't permission people enough to take those words from the Osborne Confession and make them their own and give them permission to just do what they do. And I just think about a tissue ministry where pastors intentionally put tissues in their pews and people start asking why are these here, pastor? Because you know something might hit you in a different way and it may touch your spirit and God may bring tears from your eyes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, hey. Let's talk about what we love, about being a Lutheran. You use a word liberation. Synonym is freedom, the gospel of Jesus Christ. It liberates us, it sets us free, free to love our neighbor, free to be comfortable in the presence of God because of what Christ has done. It centers us, the heart of Lutheranism, centers us on the solas, right.
Speaker 4:So what is it about being a Lutheran that you love Greg, right? So what is it about being a Lutheran that you love Greg? So many other denominations and traditions of worship I say all the time make people believe that they have to hold to certain legalistic teachings. You know, and they'll say you have to dress a certain way, not wear makeup, not wear this certain type of clothing or whatever.
Speaker 4:And I make sure that people at Broadmoor know that we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, and I cling to those words, even as we just. You know the model of our church in a banner that was above our church until Hurricane Francine took it down and I have to get another one because Francine tore it to shreds says no perfect people allowed. And every Sunday I say we are imperfect people, declaring the perfect message of the gospel of Jesus Christ and him crucified, and I love declaring that because that's who we are, as we are simultaneously sinners and saints, and I think people are encouraged by knowing that they can be. They can look like a sinner, smell like a sinner and be a sinner. In Broadmoor Community Church and I teach our people we aren't going to look at anybody funny. We're not going to crook our neck to stare at anybody, in whatever fashion they come in into the church, because they are saved by grace through faith in Jesus.
Speaker 2:Yes, Love that. Uh, you're a member, Greg, of the Black Clergy Caucus in the LCMS. Yes, Could you tell? For those that don't know that story, could you tell how it started and your goals? Uh, as a as a caucus moving forward, brother?
Speaker 4:Yeah, so so many people don't know about the Black Clergy Caucus. I am the vice president and chaplain. I hold two rows of the Black Clergy Caucus. Our president is Brother.
Speaker 4:Years ago I don't wanna quote the wrong date, so in years, but many years ago, over 50 now in order to bring together black clergy to talk about issues concerning how do we bring more people of color black people into the church, how do we support them, how do we support pastors that are interested in doing Black ministry, and how do we bring more Indigenous leaders and get them through our seminaries and raise them up in communities.
Speaker 4:And so the Black Clergy Caucus meets twice a year.
Speaker 4:In our spring caucus meeting and our fall caucus meeting, we have what is also called the Black Ministry Family Convocation, which will be held in Dallas, texas, in July of 2025. We're vigorously preparing for that and then preparing for the anniversary of Black Ministry in the Lutheran Church in 2027, we'll have another convocation, which will be huge for us Because, you know, frankly, we have not felt that our Synod has done a good job of really being intentional about bringing Black folks to the church. You know, the message has been often that Black people really are not going to come into our church body, and so because you know, certain, even certain leaders have said and I won't mention names is that we don't feel black people are going to come into the church, into the Lutheran church, so we're not going to really invest time and energy and money in getting them there, and so we have to do it ourselves, because we believe in the doctrine and the teaching of the Lutheran Church and we have to figure out a way to bring people in.
Speaker 2:I am sorry. That is unbelievable In an ever increasingly diverse United States of America for us to think, in a post-Christian secularized culture, that we're only going to go after white. I mean, I gosh, okay, I've I've heard. I've heard that some of the church planning strategies are to go where the people are most likely to look like us and maybe have some sort of a pro proclivity toward Lutheranism, and that's where we need to plant churches.
Speaker 2:From a business perspective, I guess you could see why someone would say that from a kingdom perspective, from a Jesus perspective, it's the most ridiculous that would. That tastes like vomit in the mouth of God. I'm sorry for us to, for us to not say, for us to forget that Jesus came for Jew and Gentile, slave, free, young, old, rich, poor. That Jesus says you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, judea, samaria, to the ends of the earth. You will cross in the book of Acts from Jerusalem all the way to Rome and everywhere in between, and the gospel will be shared from Africa to Asia, as the apostles went out to all of these different places. This is unfaithful. Those who have that sort of a view, I'm sorry You're not reading the Bible Absolutely and you're not understanding the times in which we live. This is an unfaithful leadership position for us to take in the LCMS If people want to come at me with this like. This is the main problem.
Speaker 2:We think Lutheranism is for Lutherans. Lutheranism is the heart of the gospel. It's getting grace and mercy out to the world. The reason we get here is because we miss the missional edge. We've forgotten the heart. The church exists because God has a mission to get all of his kids back, not the other way around. Ecclesiology gets out in front of missiology. We miss every single time and unfortunately you've experienced that and that just makes my heart very, very sad, greg. So, as a third generation LCMS pastor, things need to change and people that say those things publicly or privately need to lovingly connected to scripture and the Lutheran confessions, be challenged with that approach, because I believe it's unfaithful. Jack, greg, anything more to add there?
Speaker 3:No, and just to be clear, like this isn't a political view, like we're talking about human beings here, right, and human beings need the gospel and, as a Lutheran church, we. Why would our hearts not be broken for every single group of people in this country and in this world that's not receiving the gospel? Why would we not give up everything for that, so that people could receive it and to welcome people in? This isn't a political issue, this is a missional issue. This is the mission of God and the gospel belongs to everyone and we should actually believe what we believe that it belongs to everybody and that we have been called on a mission to share the gospel and include everybody into the gospel. That's right.
Speaker 4:Absolutely. I could not agree more and we have to confess that as a church, we have to speak openly about our abandonment of the urban community. We have simply abandoned the urban community. We have picked up, packed our bags, which I saw quite literally. We have picked up, packed our bags, which I saw quite literally in Kansas City, kansas, packed our bags and going out to churches in the suburbs and said, well, let's forget about those people. That's not what Jesus did. Jesus lived according to Matthew 25. I was sick, I was hungry, you fed me, thirsty, you gave me something to drink. Sick, you came and visited me in prison, you cared for me, or vice versa. But that's who we are and what we need to be, and we have failed to do that and we need to call a spade a spade and speak truth and love to our church body and move forward.
Speaker 2:Well, the hard thing is and we've been on a truth speaking crusade, you could say, on the podcast for some time the hard thing is to get people who may disagree with you or you know frame things a different way, like we don't. We don't welcome diverse voices to the respective table systematically, and, and are we having these conversations at the Council of Presidents? Have you been able to share, as a black clergy caucus, been able to share, some of these discontentments with leadership, and how was that received?
Speaker 2:And is there ongoing conversation to address our urban urban struggles. Greg, I'm hoping the answer is yes.
Speaker 4:Well, no, and unfortunately there's been conversations, but not any conversations that are really making sure that there is a plan and a strategy that works. We've been hearing the same old stuff. We've had people come to the clergy caucus that are presented from the LCMS leadership and who are saying the same old thing, that are not implementing strategies to really, as you say, get people to the table, implementing strategies to really, as you say, get people to the table. The problem is that the way that our governance is set up as Lutheran Church, we have not created a pathway to get people of color to the table. So this whole election process that we have is not set up that I would ever get the number of votes that I need to be raised up to that, to being a president in the Lutheran church. It's just not set up that way.
Speaker 4:So what we need is to say, okay, going back and looking at the fact of how we failed and how we've not created a pathway, how do we become intentional about it in such a way that we say you know some may say it, you know what do they call it.
Speaker 4:Say you know some may say it, you know what do they call it affirmative action or something like that. But if we say we're going to be very intentional, that at this particular in this particular group on this board, we're going to seat one person of color, on this particular board we're going to seat two people of color, but it will always be mandated that this is how this works, that's the only way you're going to get people at the table, because our governing model is not set up to get people there and we're unwilling I mean maybe at this point in time at least to make those sorts of what some view as radical changes to our governing model to get people there. And I'm not hearing that discussion. Until we talk about that sort of intentionality, it's not happening, unfortunately.
Speaker 2:Well, we're one of the whitest church bodies in the United States. I think we're number one or number two.
Speaker 2:We're about 96% white, yeah, so yeah, we can do better and I would agree that getting people of color to the right table at the district circuit level into positions of leadership, that's one opportunity. I think the other opportunity is raising up more leaders, local, that can be taught in partnership with pastors from wonderful theologians. Distance learning takes place but they get recognized as leaders within our church and I don't necessarily see a pathway right now for raising up the quantity and quality, but the quantity of pastors that we need in our urban center who stay in context to understand their culture. We've been a part of a test with the Luther House of Studies for some time, greg.
Speaker 2:We've been raising up kind of indigenous leaders to help us with our church, planning our multi-site strategy, and it kind of gets looked down upon, I think, by some as kind of some rogue attempt to raise up indigenous leaders. And we're just running a test in leadership development that we're praying folks kind of observe and even test the leaders that are going through our training. They're going to find them very, very one mission oriented first and then very, very faithful with our Lutheran doctrine. So anything more about raising up indigenous leaders and that's it. So for things to change systemically. It is about leaders at the local level, more and more leaders being raised up. Anything more there, greg?
Speaker 4:Yeah no, we have to raise up local leaders. We have to make sure that local leaders are seeing people that look like them. You know and I want to say that as a caveat I'm not saying that leaders always have to be trained by leaders who look like them, but it helps. When young people see people in the church that look like me, they're going to be more apt to want to be a part of that. And we also have to talk money. It comes down to money. We have to put our money where our mouth is.
Speaker 4:There is money within our church body to be able to support pastors while they stay in their local context to be able to get through the training that they need, to be able to then stay in their local context and to be able to say it's all right, we need you there. We need you to bring the gospel to the people in that area that you know best. We have to trust them that they know that place where they were born and raised better than anybody else. They don't need anybody to teach them about their community. They already know about it. So we have to be able to bring money. Just let them know that it's okay and bring other leaders that look like them to train them.
Speaker 2:Have you used SMP at all toward that end? Specific ministry pastor. What's been your experience with SMP?
Speaker 4:Yeah, I've seen SMP raise up several pastors and I think it's a good program that needs to continue. I think there's been some sort of disinvestment from that program and talk about not continually to utilize it, but I think it's a fantastic program.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think. I think the future of the church is going to depend on and this this is the part that gets us a little bit in in a more emotional conversation with folks. It's going to be non-residential, it's going to be local. It's going to be done in, you know, in internship, in a local context, local people raised up to serve the local church. Yes, so that people are serving the community while they're studying.
Speaker 3:They can be serving in ministry, they can be serving in their careers, they can run a business, they can do all these kinds of things while at the same time doing their studies to prepare themselves for ministry and we are woefully behind as a church body in providing those options for people think it's going to be probably the normative way in the future someday that that's going to be probably the primary way for people because there's going to be a lot of second career people that go into ministry. I'm still a huge fan of the residential route for certain people that know that that's what they want to do at a very young age. I think that's an excellent way to do it. And again, I give the analogy of a military man, I give the analogy of the West Point and the ROTC model. Right, there is space for kind of elite institutions to teach people that have been chosen or called at a very early age with the very best of the best experience. That's very challenging and there's also an important role for localized educational opportunities and ROTC. You know, in the US military they partner with 1,700 local universities, which means people are living in the community and studying to become officers.
Speaker 3:We need to do the same thing for our church and I believe every single best practice of raising up leaders, which ultimately is like the catalyst that multiplies the church at the local level. It's going to depend on that capacity to do that, to have the local church actually see itself as the training ground for ministry, even more so than the seminary. The seminary, then, exists to support the local church's initiative to do this and make sure that they're equipped with really good theology and teaching. Equipped with really good theology and teaching. And when you have that, then you can create these multiplication movements of all different kinds of communities urban, suburban, right, latino, black, white communities. All these communities can play in there because it's being gifted to them that they can do that in that local context. That resource is given to them right.
Speaker 4:Yeah, go ahead, jerry.
Speaker 4:No, I was just going to say no, you're absolutely right, and we have to just remember that being able to leave your community, go to the seminary is a privilege that a lot of people of color just simply cannot afford to be able to do. They can't leave their families, they can't leave their community, they don't have the money to do that and plus they can't leave their families, they can't leave their community, they don't have the money to do that and plus it would hurt their families to not have that male leader there in their household. And quite frankly, too, we've got to deal with the fact that a lot of our seminaries oh, not a lot, we have two, and I'll speak from the experience of Fort Wayne, the whole. Again, I go back to what I said earlier, the atmosphere and the whole just attitude that I was faced with, with being one of maybe six African-Americans on the campus of that time in 2000, when I, when I graduated.
Speaker 4:Before that it was not a welcoming spirit and I don't want black leaders to have to endure that, and I don't think that it's changed very much. And so, until we deal with that, how do we make the seminary campus a place where people who don't look like the, the the most of the people there, a place where people are going to feel welcome, then I don't want to send people there to be for their core training. I'm just being honest on that one. It's tough. It's tough Not the only thing. No, greg, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Folks would listen to us and think, well, why are you guys a part of the LCMS? Then? Right, why are you a part of it? Well, I'll tell you why. It's my family. You know, it's Greg, it's your, it's your family. If you can't challenge your family, something's wrong. You know we. We speak these words not because we hate, but because we love our family and we see the potential for radical gospel multiplication.
Speaker 2:People, resources, creative ideas, there's all sorts of. It's kind of gets down to what story's being told in the LCMS. Like have a lot of, have a lot of leaders wanted to know hey, what, what, Greg, is God doing in Broadmoor community church? What's working in urban ministry? Are you, are you being asked to share your story in the Lutheran witness and the reporter and places like that? And I, I just don't know that the answer is yes. I think the story that we're telling right now is a very narrow story. It's not the breadth of all that God is doing in our synod, and that's one of the reasons we do this podcast is to hear the breadth of what God is doing in a diverse context.
Speaker 4:Any more kind of closing comments about why we're even in the LCMS, Greg, you know again, I totally agree with you because we're family and I believe that there are many of us who have to come with the understanding that we are change agents, that God has placed us in the church for this appointed time.
Speaker 4:It does no good to leave the church, but what is good? To be that voice of who we really need to be, that amplified voice sounding the alarm and saying you know, I don't come to condemn people. Let's just figure out how we can listen to the Lord, discern where we need to be and move accordingly and to love people as they shift. People don't shift as quickly as others do and I think we understand that and I think that we have to look at the fact that we have seen, you know, some change. You know, as Lutherans, we don't move quickly, so we stay in the church, believing that times like this of this podcast and with the work that you all are doing, is what helps to bring the change and, god willing, we'll see it in our lifetime and I believe we are seeing it to some extent. But we believe that through Christ, all things are possible.
Speaker 2:Amen, hey, final question. This has been so fun. People don't know that you struggle with sight limitations. If you haven't, so I know you tell this story all the time. What has Jesus taught you, though, through physical, emotional and spiritual struggle? Right, Life is filled with struggle, suffering. In this world, you will have suffering and struggle. Take heart of overcome the world. Suffering produces perseverance, character, character, perseverance and hope right. So what has Jesus taught you, even through physical and emotional struggle?
Speaker 4:Oh, thank you for mentioning that, because it's so hard to look at a screen where I can't actually see your faces. I am 96% blind, have a hereditary disease called Leber's optic neural atrophy which affects my optic nerve, not my pupil, so I can't wear glasses or contacts. Can't be fixed by surgery and so. But my whole story don't have time to go into it now is the story of the man blind.
Speaker 4:In John, chapter nine, jesus said this happened so that the power of God may be displayed in his life. And and I always say that all of us have a this. My this is that I'm visually impaired, but everybody has some sort of this that you can either use to glorify God or you can let the devil use it to keep you down and discouraged and not believing that God has a plan for your life. God has shown me for everybody. Everybody has a this who walks into your church. We got to show them that God wants to use their this to glorify him and to reveal that God has an awesome plan and that he can do anything despite any condition in your life.
Speaker 4:So that's that's why I keep on going and keep on moving and I say to people, when I tell them I'm blind. They say, oh, I'm so sorry, I feel so sorry for you. Don't ever feel sorry for me, because God has been good to me. And that's why I tell the church Jack and Tim, I'm not throwing any pity parties for anybody. God has power to lift you up and to use you in incredible ways, and that's the power of the gospel that he lifted blind people up, deaf people up and people who are possessed by demons up. Hey, blind people up, deaf people up and people who are possessed by demons, up.
Speaker 2:Amen hey, this has been legit buddy, so good to get to know you better, praying for your ministry, praying for your voice in your congregation to be pointing as many people as possible to Jesus there in the New Orleans community and for your voice in the wider congregation from your district into the synod. You are a blessing brother. I'm grateful. Continue to stay engaged with us. We need your voice in the LCMS so, so profoundly. And I do believe a change and we're not talking people or anything like that, I'm talking the culture of the LCMS and the systems of the culture of the LCMS could, by the Spirit's power, change in our lifetime, especially for our kids and our grandkids. Moving forward, that we would be an open-minded, spirit-filled, word-centered, christ-crucified and risen-proclaiming congregation that we would trust, that we would build bridges of understanding into diverse pockets of our church body.
Speaker 2:Moving from the urban center out, we have to go back with creative ways to reach people with the gospel into the urban center. There was a day that we abandoned. It's not too late to go back. That we abandoned. It's not too late to go back. And again, can we look at the systems for raising up leaders and try to have. Could we have a vision of, hey, let's raise up in the next five years 50 non-Anglo and diverse and ethnically diverse speaking, different length? Could we have 50 new leaders raised up in the next five years in strategic urban centers? Could a vision like that come out from Senate? I'd love to see that happen. And then how do we make it happen? And that's where exploring new ways to raise up leaders, like the test we're running here, could be an option. It's an awesome privilege to get to know you, greg. If people want to connect with you and your ministry, how can they do so?
Speaker 4:People can contact me at Broadmoor Community Church. How can they do so? People can contact me at Broadmoor Community Church. They can email me at gmanning1973 at yahoocom. Yeah, I'm old school, it's been with me forever. But email me there gmanning1973 at yahoocom.
Speaker 2:Hey, so good. This has been so much fun. If this podcast has blessed you, please like, subscribe on YouTube wherever it is. Comments help keep the conversation going. I bet we'll have some comments from people who have very, very strong views, and if you have a strong view that's different from what we just heard here, we'd move you right to the top of getting on this podcast. We'd love to hear your heart, your perspective. You can email me at taulman at cglchurchorg. It's a good day. Go and make it a great day. You're awesome, greg. Thanks, jeff.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much. God bless guys.
Speaker 1:You've been listening to Lead Time, a podcast of the Unite Leadership Collective. The ULC's mission is to collaborate with the local church to discover, develop and deploy leaders through biblical Lutheran doctrine and innovative methods To partner with us in this gospel message. Subscribe to our channel, then go to theuniteleadershiporg to create your free login for exclusive material and resources and then to explore ways in which you can sponsor an episode. Thanks for listening and stay tuned for next week's episode.