Lead Time
Lead Time
Managing Change within a Long-Established Community: Pastor Tim Niekerk's Journey at Salem Lutheran Church
The journey of church leadership can be filled with challenges, as
Tim Niekerk shares his experiences navigating change, trust, and moral crises at Salem Lutheran Church. His story illustrates the importance of communication and understanding in fostering a healthy church community while also addressing the unique complexities of leading a long-standing congregation.
• Tim Niekerk's journey in ministry and leadership challenges
• The historic significance of Salem Lutheran Church and its unique story
• Understanding the complexities of leadership transitions
• Navigating the emotional aftermath of change within a congregation
• The importance of truth and trust in church communities
• Managing moral failures and ensuring transparency
• Maintaining identity amidst external turmoil and accusations
• Embracing diversity in ministry for broader outreach
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Speaker 2:Welcome to Lead Time, tim Allman, here with Jack Kauberg, we pray. The joy of the Lord is your strength. We pray that hope and optimism for your life, your ministry, your church's life, your mission to bring the gospel to as many people as possible, your discipleship, your evangelism. We just pray you're in love with Jesus and wanting to join him where he's at work by the Spirit's power in your local context. We pray all of these conversations fuel you toward that end. Jack, how are you doing man?
Speaker 3:I'm doing fantastic. It is a beautiful time here in Arizona. It's a beautiful time to be part of the church. You know, I just feel blessed in everything right now. It's a great time to be part of the church. You know, I just feel blessed in everything right now. It's a great time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, likewise, I feel blessed that I get to hang out with one of my favorite Tims on planet Earth. It's a great day when I get to hang out. We get to hang out with Tim Niekerk. Let me tell you just a little bit about Tim. Been a pastor now, how many years since your ordination, tim? Ordained in 97, so I'm coming up on 28 years 28 years and he is the longtime now lead pastor at Salem Lutheran Church and School in Tomball, Texas. And Tim, how did Tomball get its name?
Speaker 4:So it sounds like it's this really great story some tumbleweed, big Texas town but the reality is our town got its name from a guy by the name of Tom Ball.
Speaker 2:Very original. It's a great name. Let's combine both of those names Tom Ball. So there it is. He's been at Salem Lutheran, a congregation that is almost 175 years. 1851, salem Lutheran was founded and if any of you have been there, it's kind of out in the middle of nowhere. I think. Do you have your own cemetery connected to the church? It's like its own little world, out in the midst of it seems like a rural area, though you're very much kind of in the heart of Houston. It's such a rural area though you're very much kind of in the heart of Houston. It's such a unique ministry. It's been a larger ministry in the LCMS for a number of years. Tell kind of Salem's story just a little bit, tim.
Speaker 4:Yeah, salem's kind of a. It's a really great story in many ways. It is out in the outer ring of the Houston area. Houston has three rings ring of the Houston area, houston has three rings and now, within the last few years, the third ring of Houston is Highway 99. To put that in perspective, it's 180 miles around. So it would take you three hours to circle our city if you could go 60 miles an hour. It's just kind of nuts. So that's starting to change some things. Things are growing.
Speaker 4:But our joke around here for many, many years has been that you'll pass more cows than people on your way to our church. Our address is on Lutheran Church Road. I don't know that too many churches have their road named after that. So Lutheran Church Road then dead ends at Lutheran School Road, which dead ends at Lutheran Cemetery Road, and you can imagine what's at the end of that. So if you wind up on that road you kind of know where you're headed. So our cemetery actually has some pre-Civil War graves. I mean, the history and heritage around here is amazing. We don't joke about fires much here at Salem. We've had two worship centers burned to the ground, one in the 60s and one in 1995. So anyway, we take fires very seriously around here.
Speaker 2:And, as you talk about what's defined, what's been the driving why for Salem? I'm sure it's evolved almost 175 years, but is there a through thread? That's kind of been the driving why for Salem from your perspective, tim kind of been the driving why for Salem from your perspective, tim?
Speaker 4:Yeah, I think Salem's always had this real kind of this heartbeat to push the envelope and be a little bit different. We were always the church outside of town. So there's another LCMS church that's in town, zion Lutheran, and Zion has always been kind of the city church. And I think Tomball in Salem, outside of Tomball, in many ways, has found its history and its heritage and maybe its identity in being this country church. That wasn't going to be the country church. So when it burned down, what was fascinating was the church that burned down was about a 200 seat building and they turned around and built a 400 seat building even though they had nowhere near that many people. Then, when the church burned down in 1995, they put up the current worship center that we worship in which seats about 1500. And we weren't worshiping anywhere near that at that time.
Speaker 4:So it's always been a church that thinks big. There's always the joke of everything's bigger in Texas, but I think Salem always likes to just kind of push things and wants to. I think there's always a dangerous delicate balance to him on making sure that the reason why you do things isn't to draw attention to yourself, and so I think Salem, over the years, has had to work really hard to we're incredibly blessed, we're well-resourced church and just making sure that the reason why we do everything that we do is to bring glory to God, not bring glory to ourselves, and I just think that's a delicate balance to walk sometimes. We do have a school that started in 1853. So one of our claims to fame is we've had a continuously running school since 1853. Is we've had a continuously running school since 1853. So we are the longest running private parochial school in the state of Texas.
Speaker 2:So that's a pretty cool deal. That's really cool. Yeah, that's amazing. What led you to Salem Tell a little bit of your ministry story, tim.
Speaker 4:Yeah, ministry story was I came out of seminary in 1997, got called to northwest suburbs of Milwaukee, planted a church in a funeral home and was there for about nine years. Things were at a spot in that ministry where we had built an early childhood center. We had added on to the early childhood center. So we kind of went with the model of building early childhood center and then worshiping in that building, being able to meet a felt need within the community. And then we were also a part of building a high school on the northwest side of Milwaukee. So that was very exciting.
Speaker 4:I actually just in the last few weeks flew up to Milwaukee for the 25th anniversary of that ministry. So kind of that was life giving. Really kind of cool to see what God continues to do in that area. Then a guy by the name of Wayne Grauman reached out to me in 2005 and started a conversation with me and just asked if I would be willing to consider talking to him about what's happening at Salem. And then I just really felt at that point in time, tim, that God was, that it was the time in which God was calling me to maybe have influence in a different place, to be able to have an opportunity to be able to grow. I think we've gotten things kicked off at Living Word up in the Milwaukee area and so God opened the store and I came down here as the connections guy, which in essence was a simulation small group, and I joke with people that I was on a four-year interview.
Speaker 4:I didn't realize I was on and I'll never forget the day that Wayne brought me into his office. I'm a pretty structured guy, as you know, and Wayne kind of enjoyed poking at me a little bit with that because he's not quite as structured as I am. And anyway, he pulled me into his office and it was a meeting that wasn't on my calendar and I walked in and it was Wayne and Doug Dahmer, who was Wayne's longtime associate, and then our chairman of our directors and chairman of our elders. And I'm serious man, like I walked into that room and the door got shut behind me and they asked me to take a seat and they were all looking at me like super serious. And I'm telling you like in my mind every part of me thought to myself I don't know what you people think I did, but I didn't do it.
Speaker 4:Um, so they just let that thing play out for a little while, uh, cause they were absolutely, uh, they were pretty good jokesters, and so they, um, they let me sweat for just a little bit and kind of um, pressured that. And then, finally, um, the Bruce was up and they said Tim, we would like you to pray about the possibility of being the guy that follows Wayne. So so then it was in 2013 that I followed Wayne, who had been the senior pastor here for 36 years.
Speaker 2:That's. That's something else. Yeah, that's something else. Yeah. So following a longtime pastor like that, especially in a church like Salem large church and school, that can be a difficult thing. Oftentimes pastors can be the unintentional interim I know a few of those over the years, especially following someone like a Wayne. So what did you, what did you do to kind of survive, just survive the transition, because I'm sure it wasn't rainbows and butterflies. As you're obviously different in many respects, you bring more structure, the way you lead is different. Just what are the primary things that the Lord did to allow you to stick and stay over that transition? I'm saying all that, tim, as I've told you this privately, just applauding how Jesus made you and the fact that you are still there and leading with joy and hope and a vision for the future at Salem is a is a Testament to the work of the Holy spirit. So how did that transition go?
Speaker 4:Yeah, Holy smokes, Tim, that's a. That is a loaded question, so I will um.
Speaker 4:I'll answer a little bit of it and then I'll let you ask additional questions if you want to do that. I think what was interesting is, in many ways I probably was too naive to know what I was getting myself into, which might have been helpful. That I was naive Because my gut tells me right now, tim, that if there was a long historic church with somebody who had decades of service to the church and asked me to follow them, on the one hand I would be far more prepared, but on the other hand I think I'd probably say no, and that's not right or wrong. I think it's just my experience. Who knows, who knows what God would call me to do? I think God's called me to be here right now. So at any rate, it was kind of an interesting deal, right. So I'm following this guy who had been there for 36 years. He had an associate who had been there since the day he graduated from seminary. So by the time Doug Dahmer retired he had been at Salem for just shy of 40 years. And then when I followed Wayne I obviously I inherited his team and I think that that was just kind of this interesting thing that when I look back on it now Tim and Jack like I don't find myself, I got blindsided by some things that I now wouldn't get blindsided by. So here's the thing I inherited this team that had over 200 years of service to Salem not to the church, but to Salem. There were a number of people on our executive team who had been on staff at Salem for anywhere from 25 to 40 years, had been on staff at Salem for anywhere from 25 to 40 years, and I was by far at that point, the youngest guy around the table. So I had the title but I didn't have the chips and you know, when I moved into that role, everybody knew it was coming.
Speaker 4:I think Wayne did about as great of a job of doing a handoff as he possibly could. He. He worked it through with our team, he worked it through with our leadership. You know, I think everybody was totally on board with the fact that Timney Kirk was going to be the guy that was going to follow Wayne, and we're even genuinely excited about it. I think Salem is a church that deals with change reasonably well, but at the end of the day, everybody struggles with change and sometimes you don't know how you're going to deal with change until the change hits you, and I think what ended up happening at Salem is we had a delayed reaction, so I followed Wayne.
Speaker 4:Wayne disappeared for the better part of a year. He and his wife, kathy, went and traveled Europe, gave me all the room in the world to be able to lead. He wasn't even available. He wasn't even accessible for people to be able to run to and talk to. I mean, like he just did a remarkable job. To this day, wayne and Kathy are still at our church and it works great. We just Kristen and I had them over for dinner within the last couple of weeks. Like we've still got a great relationship with Wayne and Kathy. I really respect that guy a great deal.
Speaker 4:So then things were running pretty smoothly, but what I began to realize was in my mind I expected that the people that had been long tenured on our staff and that were older than me would be the people that, at the end of the day, would be able to handle this transition better than anybody. They were the ones on the inside. They were the people that were part of the decision-making process. They were the ones that knew more than anybody else. They were the ones that got to speak into it more than anybody else. But this is one of those moments where the concept is one thing, the reality of it becomes another, and there's just some realities that take place when your position shifts within an organization, particularly at the top, and when you follow a long tenured leader and inherit a long tenured team.
Speaker 4:So what started to happen was I you know, I was smart enough, I'd heard from enough people and read enough books to talk to. People have gone down this river before me who basically said Tim, don't make any significant changes in the first year. So I just didn't talk with everybody, spent a lot of time with people. I think one of the things that starts to happen when you bring in a new leader is I started poking my head in corners and looking in closets not literal closets, but you know what I mean. Like you're just you're asking people a little more directly what they're up to. So help me understand this. Help me understand that I mean, I'm in a new role, so I'm just being curious. I'd like to understand what people are up to. I feel responsible for how we steward our resources here, which includes our people, so just start asking questions. Well, what I found was the more I would start asking questions, the more people would start pulling their cards back. I think there was.
Speaker 4:I think people had gotten very used to doing things the way they did them over decades. And again, I don't think it's anybody's fault, tim. I think it's totally normal now that I can look back. The age old hindsight is 2020. Look, people were all. Everybody that I'm going to talk about loves Jesus, loves Salem wants to do the right thing, right. I mean, I don't think anybody's trying to create a problem, but there's just a reality that when you start asking questions and start wanting to do things a little bit differently, people start to react.
Speaker 4:So then, my expectation of long-tenured people being able to handle this the best. Now that I look back, I go doesn't it make sense that those would be the people that would have the hardest time with the change, because they're the people who are most entrenched in the way we're currently doing things. Well now, that makes sense to me, but I never expected that walking into this. So I just started to get blindsided by some things, and then I don't know whether I did things right or wrong, tim. At this point, I think it's immaterial. What I can tell you is just like I'll give every person in this deal. Eighth Commandment best construction on things that they love Jesus, love Salem and want to do the right thing.
Speaker 4:I'd argue I was doing the same, but what really started to get interesting was because I inherited this team and then, just as life happens, we're all getting older and at some point there has to come an end. And so when I would start having conversations, I'll tell you what I tried to approach retirement with people from about every possible angle that I could figure out how to do it. People from about every possible angle that I could figure out how to do it. You know I would sit down with you and go hey, tim, I know you're, you're turning 63 this year, would love to just start having a conversation with you about what's next, so that you and I can make sure that we're on the same page. I want to be able to honor you. I want to be able to make sure that Salem has some kind of succession plan going on, Because when you inherit that long tenure to the team right, I mean, I don't think it works really well to have, like your 40 year associate pastor put in his two weeks notice and then try to replace him.
Speaker 4:You know I mean like there's too much emotional relational capital there to just kind of say, well, let's just wait until somebody finally retires and then we'll figure it out. So I'm a planner, I'm relatively strategic in the way I approach life and so I kept trying to have these conversations. But I found that when I would start talking to you about that you would react no matter how I approached it. It was like the minute I would bring up that conversation it suddenly caused you somehow internally to simply draw the conclusion that I wanted you out. And, man, you can imagine that when somebody starts to get to a spot where they're pretty convinced that you want them out sooner rather than later, even if that's not what I said, that's clearly what people would hear the minute I would start this conversation. So initially it seemed like things were going OK. So for the first few years of being senior pastor at Salem everything was really pretty great, tim. I mean I would have told you it was going well.
Speaker 4:So the delayed reaction, I believe, started to happen when our long term associate finally retired, and you know he was well loved by our congregation. He'd been there for four decades. He's married, buried, confirmed, I mean just in the life of our congregation. He made the decision when he retired that he wasn't going to come back here. He felt like he just needed to have a really, really clean break, and I respect that decision. It wasn't what I asked him to do. I would have been happy to have him still involved in some different ways if it would have worked out, but that was the decision that was made. Well then, people are people and this is where I will just tell you you can't predict how people are going to respond to change. So then what started to happen was this was in 2019. We all know that the world changed in 2020. So navigating, the change of the guard started in 2019. So long-term associates started. He retired in early 2019.
Speaker 4:Then we were in the process of our head of school for well over a decade and a half, maybe pushing 20 years. She was moving toward retirement. We, our director, so basically our entire executive team turned over. Oh goodness, tim, probably in two to three years, and this was a very well-planned deal. I mean, I put it in front of our directors, put it in front of our elders, put it in front of our executive team, had great conversations.
Speaker 4:I thought this thing was well-planned. I thought it was very transparent in front of people, like we even did a campaign called A thousand generations and raised over a million dollars in order to be able to have basically doubled up salaries for the better part of a year and a half to two years. So that, look at think about it this way, tim, so if I came to you and you're a couple of years from retirement, what I wanted to do was be able to bring in somebody behind you so that you could pour into that person, so that by the time you're heading out, we're not just then starting to look for somebody, but we would have somebody already in place who you were able to kind of bless sort of an Elijah Elisha kind of concept be able to give some of your chips and relational capital to introduce to people, all that kind of stuff. So I thought it was a great plan. I thought it was, I thought it was going along swimmingly. It was in front of our congregation, our congregation was generous. I mean, think about that, the fact that they were willing to provide resources for a step doubled up salaries for a period of time. So things in motion, going, going gangbusters. I would have told you it was going great, things in motion, going gangbusters I would have told you it was going great.
Speaker 4:But then what ended up happening was so associate retires and then six months later he ends up taking one of our churches that's about 30 minutes from Salem. Their pastor had cancer and ended up dying while still actively in ministry. So they were in a crisis moment and so our associate, who had retired six months earlier, went and just was trying to help out for a little bit. Well, in the process of that there were just some wonky things that happened. We don't have to go into details with all of that, but you can just imagine what story lines can start, right or wrong again, not anybody specifically trying to create a problem, but it created lots of problems.
Speaker 4:So imagine having a guy that's been at a church for 40 years pops up 30 minutes down the street and when our associate retired, there were some folks that were kind of like well, what does he need to retire for? He's still spry and young and we like him, he's been around for a long time, all that kind of stuff. So there were a few people at that time that already kind of felt like maybe Tim Niekerk was forcing him out, or that there was some something going on and Tim wanted him out, kind of thing. So people are people, right? They're always looking for the story. So he retired. But then when he pops up six months later, you can imagine that reinvigorates for people. See, he wasn't done. If he was done then he wouldn't be popping up over here. But since he's popping up over here, why didn't he just stay at Salem, right?
Speaker 4:So then it just starts this. I don't know, tim, I just think people love the conspiracy they're always looking for. Oh, this is the real story, right? So all you need is a couple of people to determine that this is the real story. And that starts a little thing over here. Right? So I have this little thing over here. Then have the fact that our executive team is all turning over within a relatively short period of time. But keep in mind, wayne built a team that was all pretty much the same age. So word to the wise, anybody who's watching this like, if you have a team, don't have them all be the same age, because then they all retire at the same time and that's bad. Okay, you can do what you want, I'm just telling you it's bad. So, anyway. So it turns over right. So then you've already got this little conspiracy over here. So then this little conspiracy over here is Tim's cleaning house. Well, tim's not cleaning house. Tim has had this plan in front of our congregation for three years. Like, this is no conspiracy, it's wide open. We go back and check tape. This is not that hard, so, at any rate. So all these little things are going on.
Speaker 4:But you know, when you're in leadership you don't get the privilege of being able to write all of those conspiracy stories. And I'm kind of an anti-social media guy, so I'm not promoting myself anywhere, so I'm just kind of quiet and doing my, doing my stuff and assuming all this stuff will just kind of settle down, right. Well, it didn't settle down a ton, and then the doggone pandemic hit. So now I'm dealing with what all of us were dealing with, which is people, you know, running around the most polarized leadership stuff I've ever dealt with. And when I throw a school on top of that, tim, you know this right, I mean, we had parents who were everything from. All of our kids need to wear masks. Because you're trying to kill our children to you don't have enough faith because you wear masks and it's like, oh for the love of all, that is good and green, this is. Can you just everybody settle down? It's going to be OK, that is good and green, this is geez. Can you just everybody settle down? It's going to be okay, so, at any rate.
Speaker 4:So now you've got the pandemic, so you got people already all squirreled up, and then I've got these little conspiracy stories going on. So I'm thinking, okay, this will all blow over and we'll finally be okay, right, I mean, we just got to get through this. Well, so if I didn't have enough going on already, then I knew I had a situation going on in my staff that I couldn't quite put my finger on, but I was getting closer and closer to it, tim. So I finally had to address somebody on our staff in just an icky, icky situation with a moral failure and moral failures are bad, no matter who you are. Moral failures within the church are just devastating. And when somebody is stuck in their own sin and are trying to cover it up, it was amazing how much effort this particular individual was willing to put in to attempt to get the spotlight off of himself or herself, right, I mean. So you find yourself in a spot where, again, from a leadership perspective, these are HR issues. I can't talk about this. So now you've got this conspiracy going on over here, this conspiracy going on over here and this one's not a conspiracy, but I can't say anything about this one either. So imagine for just a moment you've already got an executive team that's turning over, you've got a pandemic, and now I've got a moral failure and a person who's doing everything in his or her power to make my life miserable, so that it takes any pressure off of them. Then you put me in a spot where our, our leadership just got way, way, way, way out of their lane. Tim and I want to be really gracious here because again, putting best construction on things, I'm able to see things much more clearly now, now that I've made it through the season.
Speaker 4:But it was a really crummy time. The stuff I was being accused of at one point I was the guy having the affair. So you can imagine for my wife having to live. I mean, to this day there's people who are still saying that I'm the guy that had the affair. And what am I going to do? Stand up in front of our whole church and announce that I'm not the guy that had the affair and then point out the person who did. And it's unhelpful, it's unhealthy, it's all of that, but it's. It is a.
Speaker 4:I feel like we were a science experiment on what happens when people choose to talk about things that they don't know what they're talking about and then just being in this quandary of what do I say and not say so, I was so grateful for some brothers who were able to help me walk through this and simply kept telling me Tim, your job is to keep leading. Well, and for the most part I just sort of remained silent, to remain silent. And there were times, tim, where, goodness, remaining silent was really, really challenging, because I knew things were being said and I knew all these little conspiracy theories were going on and you wanted to address them all. But it's like whack-a-mole. I mean, you go and try to address one and it just makes you look I guess a leadership principle would be you try to chase all those things down At some point.
Speaker 4:It almost makes you look I don't know what the word would be almost like you've got something to hide because you're working so hard to try to push back on everything. So I just decided I was going to move forward and let my, at that time, 26 years of ministry speak for itself and ultimately, that's what ended up prevailing. In many ways. There were some really critical moments that I would be able to talk about, but we don't. We don't have that kind of time for me to put in those kinds of specific stems.
Speaker 2:Wow, Tim, thank you for sharing the story. This is an unusual thing, for a variety of perspective is because you're still in the congregation Most of the time. Guys tell that story and for one reason or another they've not survived in that context and I'm going to use this word because it's a systems word and it's not a directive toward any one group or one group of people but when leaders differentiate themselves, when they say hey, I'm not so-and-so and or this is the way we're going to do things now, here's the strategy toward leadership transitions, all which seems very, very reasonable if reason is the only thing we're considering. When systems are changing, we get to emotion. We get to unreasonable perspectives like that People don't speak out of their, they're speaking from their amygdala, their fight flight, freeze, fawn perspectives, and you are dealing with all sorts of various you know and I so-and-so is saying about me or others in that environment what you've experienced. Now I'd love to get your perspective on this the whole organization kind of rises up. If the leader can remain differentiated and relationally connected enough, you survive the sabotage over time, the systemic sabotage that takes place.
Speaker 2:Most leaders can't make it through that sort of a sabotage. Most are going to run away. Most are going to fight of a sabotage. Most are going to run away. Most are going to fight, defend, hold resentment. So what does it look like now for you, in your context, to say I love and I love when I get to this point, being at 11 years now in my congregation? I love, for there have been seasons of relationships even here. I have not walked through anything close to what you walked through, but people don't like this decision or that decision. One of the most liberating experiences is when that person comes back, not to the church necessarily, but just comes back I've had this happen a number of times and say you know what? I held you responsible for my own. I was displacing my anxiety in this season upon you. It was unfair. Will you please forgive me? And then I can say, hey, I kind of made you. You know the bad guy.
Speaker 2:Human beings want to make what's complex very, very simple and we want to go at different people that say if they only were removed, then everything would change. Well, it's not that simple. So I always have contribution to whatever the struggle is that I can confess and then we unite as brothers and sisters in Christ, under the confession of Jesus as Lord and King. And if confession and absolution took place, like obviously has taken place, at Salem and will continue to take place. And it's like if confession and absolution took place, like obviously has taken place, at Salem, and will continue to take place, If it happens, in our local congregations and then out to our districts and Senate, oh, my goodness, what a wonderful world it would be. But unfortunately we develop labels and caricatures one to another to keep people in their respective, you know, siloed perspectives of ministry, and it's just as very, very unhelpful. How did you survive the sabotage and am I articulating what you walk through in an accurate way from a system perspective, Tim? Any more observation there?
Speaker 4:Yeah, I think you've identified really well the systemic issue. I think you've identified really well the systemic issue. And, tim, what was really helpful for me in many ways was to get to a spot where I didn't see the people as the and man. I'll tell you to your point like it took a long time for me not to feel like Salem did this to me or these, these terrible people did this to me or whatever, to be able to rise above that and go with. There was a systemic problem that we needed to address. Man, yeah, I would say that the way that we were able to get through it was to finally some truth had to come out. Some truth had to come out, and that's always hard Because sometimes what was amazing to me was sometimes people didn't want to hear the truth. Even when the truth came out, it's almost like people needed Then there was embarrassment over realizing, you know, I hitched my wagon to the wrong horse, kind of thing.
Speaker 4:Those are always hard moments. I think pride is always a challenge for all of us, and so I consistently had to check myself on that. I'm sure you've heard the terminology right fighting, that I had to work really hard to not want to just right, fight, but to keep saying, for the sake of the ministry, I need to stand through this. And I still remember a really significant moment where my wife, with tears, just said, tim, yeah, tim, can we just, can you just stop, please, let's move on. I mean we lost friendships through this, relationships. There was just carnage all over the place, and so that's just painful, tim, when you look back at that. And so I've had a few people come back now and we've been able to reconcile some things and some pretty hard ones.
Speaker 4:Some of this, I would say, say, is irreparable, not beyond God's ability to breathe, grace, but I mean it's sort of like that. Think of it in terms of if you break your leg in 14 spots, I mean we can put the leg back together and I might still be able to walk, but the leg's never going to be quite the same again. I might still be able to walk, but the legs never going to be quite the same again. So I think one of the challenges of trying to stay at Salem I really had to wrestle through Do I still love this church, do I still love Jesus and his church and do I still feel called to be in this place and I think I was able to get to a resounding place of this is where I need to be in this work. That's called me to be.
Speaker 4:But yeah, painful moments, painful conversations, but a willingness to be able to rise above making it any one person, any one thing. And it is interesting the further you get removed from it, tim how you're able to just see things a bit more clearly. Does that help? I don't know if I'm answering the question.
Speaker 2:Distance definitely helps. Life is suffer, survive and thrive. Over and over again, rinse and repeat. In this world you will have trial and trouble, and it will come from individuals and from groups of individuals. And how well do we offer them and all things to Jesus, who holds us in the palm of his hand and he's not going to let go. I'm just proud of your perseverance in that story and it's a beautiful story that needs to be told and that's why I thank you for going into the depth of it, Jack. Any observations before we?
Speaker 2:pivot a bit Well.
Speaker 3:I'm just reflecting a little bit on my story, your story also, tim. Here. Christ Greenfield's gone through a story of transition and leadership and we had an intentional interim pastor from which I personally I thought that was a great plan Having somebody who served in a very long you know very, very long tenured role in a senior pastor position. Having an interim in there was really good for our organization psychologically to kind of create that intentional psychological bridge from one era to another era of the church and then bringing Tim on board. I've seen this where stories form, narratives form about, hey, we're filling in the gap, something happened and, like you said, tim, these are HR issues that you can't talk about. But people fill in the gaps, they have a construction on it and you're kind of stuck because I can't sit there and say, well, I did this and this and this, but like, no, these are private HR conversations. I can't bring this up in a congregational thing.
Speaker 3:These are very, very difficult when you've had, let's say, maybe moral failings with staff or performance issues with staff where you're trying to be very sensitive about it. But there's factions and loyalty to certain people and I'm just kind of curious from both of your perspectives. You know, how do you? What is the healthiest way to enter into conversations where people are forming wrong narratives about what's going on Like this is this is something that every leader you know. If they're sending in their leadership and if they're progressing in leadership, you're going to deal with this someday, right? What is the healthiest way to deal with that in your perspective, because I think people need to hear that specifically.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, my identity is not found in the approval of men or women, right? I think that has to be the starting point, and so if you are upset with me or us, my door remains open, and I'm not surprised if you come in and say that we did or said something that was inappropriate, or maybe it's even a gray area and you've got a difference of opinion. That just is the way it is, and I have to have that identity statement going through my head all the time, because if I don't, I probably will end up either bending right toward the, toward the person to say, yeah, you're right, jack's a mess, or whoever they come in to be it's all Jack's fault, whatever, or or.
Speaker 2:I'm going to be like pulling back Right, and this is it's the fight or flight tendency, consistently. And so can I listen, keep my mind about me to ask the good questions, and then the first one to confession and absolution wins, and I'm actually in difficult conversations. I'm looking for the opportunity for me to take responsibility. Where in this struggle can I take responsibility? And the quicker in the moment Jack I'm thinking of a conversation, you're thinking of the same one the quicker I can get to say we could have done better there.
Speaker 2:That levels them, for them to kind of move back, take some distance actually in the space to say, oh wow, I didn't see that. I didn't see that coming, I was ready for a fight.
Speaker 2:I was thinking they were coming in, they were going to justify themselves. So, since my identity is in Christ and I don't need anybody, I'm justified by him. I then can get to an honest understanding of and in our governance. Jack right, it's Jesus is at the center, but then I cause or allow everything to happen. So I mean, if something's going on like there's an element, I brought that person into that role right and I've allowed maybe some bad behavior to take place.
Speaker 3:Even if it's the process of delegation that's happened, you still have to own it right.
Speaker 2:I got responsibility right. So the quicker I can get to the responsibility-centered confessing conversation, the better chance. It doesn't always work great, but the better chance we have at the at that leader and then in their position it filtering down. At least Tim is open for a conversation, like if the worst thing that can happen is Tim will not hear me or this group of people, however small it is in our perspective. So that's the way I guess I try to survive the inevitable sabotages up to this point. Tim, what would you add or exclude in what I just said?
Speaker 4:Yeah, I know we've got only a couple of minutes left. Tim, maybe a future conversation between you and me might be some staffing conversations. You and me might be some staffing conversations. I think I've looked. I just found I love the phrase that says a reasonable person doesn't need to have their way, but a reasonable person needs to have their way. Heard and considered my deal. Where I find some frustration is when somebody wants me to hear their idea for the 12th time and I'm looking at them saying heard, considered. The answer remains no, right.
Speaker 4:I remember having to have a lunch with a guy at one point where I finally said this is the last time we're going to have this conversation and the next time we go out to lunch if you bring this up again I will leave the table, like I just finally had to put some. It was like you've got to put a boundary on so. Sometimes, jack, you've got to be pretty firm with people. When I was going through the worst of what I was going through just total insurrection, mutiny, and you've got people coming at you with pitchforks and torches One of the things that you said, tim, just caught my attention and I know we're wrapping up.
Speaker 4:I had to get to the spot of becoming settled on who I am. So your identity conversation of I'm a child of God first, and then what are the unique ways in which God has wired me. What started to happen a little bit was I basically got painted as really a not nice person, like I mean I love all these phrases and terms again. So if toxic, you know all this and I'm just like OK. So last time I checked if you receive a paycheck that says Salem Lutheran Church in the top left hand corner, I think it's totally appropriate that there are expectations of your time and your behavior. And if you make the top guys in the organization whether it's a church or business or non, I don't care what it is If you make the top guys life miserable, you're probably not going to last super long in that organization. I mean it's just not that difficult. And if the top guy sets north, whatever north is, as long as in our context, tim Jack, that it's not immoral, illegal, that kind of stuff.
Speaker 4:Right Then, if I declare north and you keep rowing east, you're not going to stay here, it's just it doesn't work, which is totally fair.
Speaker 3:I mean 100 fair, but people have a hard time dealing with that right because it's a different vision right and it upsets like again 40, however many years of shared experience that people had serving there. That's a really tough, painful thing to do and sometimes the right answer is a new staff.
Speaker 4:Unfortunately it is, and here's the interesting thing, jack just in a closing thought, tim is this always sort of blindsided me, and this just might catch somebody who's listening and help them hear something slightly different Like I was always amazed when I would make even the smallest change, like changing, make it as simple as changing the carpet or paint color. What I found was people would react and it was like, instead of being able to go, we've had that same paint color and carpet for 20 years. Okay, it's just, it's just time to freshen it up. What? What the person? Because we had people that were here for a long time. For some reason, their identity was tied up in that, and so then it was like, because we're changing the color or changing the carpet, what they heard was what they did was wrong, and I'm like nobody's saying that what you did was wrong, we're just saying my mom picked that color right.
Speaker 4:Yes, it's orange shag carpet.
Speaker 3:It's time to go.
Speaker 4:Orange shag carpet was fantastic 20 years ago, Right? So it's just interesting how people get tied into things and so then trying to have those kinds of conversations where you try to pull the emotion out. But I would say, Tim, last comment is to get that identity right. And I had to get confident in who I was. That when people were telling me, trying to tell me over and over who I was, you're this, you're that and man, you have enough people tell you something for a long period of time and I remember telling you this, Tim, like I got to the point of going am I Maybe I am? So finally having to get settled with? No, I'm not.
Speaker 4:I love Jesus, I love this church. I'm a focus driven son of a gun at moments and I have to be careful because I can run people over and when I do that then I have to go. Man, I'm really sorry, I never intended to do that, and so I got to back up every once in a while and I think I've become a more seasoned leader through this. So sometime, Tim, we can talk about maybe what I've learned through the process.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, we'll have you back for sure. You said last, my little meeting can wait a couple minutes. I got one more thing I need to talk to you about. You're now the leader of the Large Church Network and we've got a lot of listeners in a variety of contexts that listen to this, and some of them may be in larger churches and many of them are in smaller churches. Is there a caricature of the large church pastor that you would like to see kind of dismissed in the hopes that we can walk together all different types of churches, all different sizes and contexts? What is one or more of those caricatures that you would like to see set right, tim?
Speaker 4:I think maybe the biggest one is I'm amazed sometimes by the conclusions that people draw about who I am based upon the position that I carry, and maybe the way I carry myself, or that just sort of creates a caricature. That simply isn't true, because you don't know what drives me. Um, I find that, to a certain degree, when you're leading an organization so just basic stats, tim, I mean our, our church is about a $10 million a year organization. We have about 130 employees. Um, I mean, goodness sakes, that's that's not what I originally got trained to do. So there's a part of my role that is very different than what I originally. When you think about I started with 14 people in a funeral home back in Milwaukee, and now this is where God has put me.
Speaker 4:There is a side, in the lowest of lows of this season that I walked through. I remember one guy looking at me and saying you act way more like a CEO than you do a pastor, and I thought to myself well, I guess that depends upon what you. You clearly have some expectation as to what the word pastor means to you when you say that, and so I think it was the fact that I'm in a position where, um, at least at the time, we've we've adjusted our structure at this point, tim, so I don't deal with HR stuff anymore, which is fantastic, it's absolutely beautiful. But I mean, when you're having to deal with HR issues, you're having to deal with finance issues, you're having to deal with all of that kind of stuff, I can't be Santa Claus all the time, all of that kind of stuff that I can't be Santa Claus all the time.
Speaker 4:And I think there was a side, at least for this person, that because all of my decisions weren't always, from his perspective, loving and grace filled, because if I would let somebody go or make a hard decision, in this person's mind that wasn't pastoral, it was a willingness to be able to step back and say, no, I think my decision was grace filled.
Speaker 4:But there are there are expectations that go with leading an organization with that many employees and you can't possibly know what's going on, and so you have to be able to trust me. So, tim, the caricature that's probably hard is sometimes people see me only as the guy that leads a large organization and I think sometimes thinks or forgets that the reason I do what I do is because I love Jesus and I believe he's the only thing that changes people's lives, the only thing that has eternal significance. The only reason I do what I do is because I want to see more people in heaven, but sometimes I'm sitting in budget meetings, sometimes I'm having to deal with significant HR issues, sometimes I'm dealing people having affairs, so I can't always be Santa Claus, and so I think it's yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Does that help?
Speaker 2:It does, it does. We're different. You know the caricature is large church bad, small church good or vice versa, small church it's like no, no, we're all just different manifestations of the church and that church is made up of a variety of different types of leaders with different types of gifts. You have more executive function gifting. That's nothing you should like, argue or have to explain away. That's how Jesus made you and you get to be in different conversations than a pastor of a smaller congregation gets to be in, and we need all types of pastors to reach all types of people.
Speaker 2:Can we just recognize that different and maybe this is a good way that different, diverse, this is a gift from Jesus rather than something to be fought against? If I could just pray for one prayer, it's that we would see our differences as a gift in the LCMS rather than something that divides us. And I'm not talking theology at all, I'm basically just talking sociology and the way we've kind of organized ourself. Can we resist the fight or flight, you know black or white kind of assumption about a person and actually get to know that person? Because I'm sure there's been, there's a lot of you know labels on us and I just don't unless I have a relationship with you, unless I see you and talk to you and we're actual humans in in a space I'm not going to. I'm not going to lose sleep over a caricature that someone else has of me. Until we get to know one another and we, we pray for one another and see one another.
Speaker 2:Brothers and sisters in Christ, it sounds like Kumbaya. It's not kumbaya. It's simply what Jesus prayed for in John, chapter 17. I desire that they would be one as we are one, and I think we're still more Holy Spirit inspired work for us to do across the continuum in the LCMS when the average church, 45% of our congregations worship less than 50 people a week. So obviously that entity of the manifestation of the local church is very different than the two contexts that we find ourselves. Not better, not worse. Any closing comments there, jack?
Speaker 3:No, I don't have anything to add to it. I think we've hit so many topics here it's hard to nail it all down to it. I mean, the key thing here is conflict. How are we dealing healthy with conflict?
Speaker 3:here, and you know, I think the key thing is our faith, ultimately, is what gives us the strength to deal with conflict, to be humble in conflict, to continue to be missional in conflict. And you know our faith again, our knowledge of being saint and sinner at the same time, lets us know that conflict is inevitable, it's going to happen, it's messy and it's 100%, totally worth it for the sake of the kingdom.
Speaker 2:Amen, amen. Tim, if people want to connect with you and your work at Salem, how can they do so?
Speaker 4:My email is first, initial, last name, so tneekirk at Salem, the number four, the letter Ucom. Happy to chat with anybody Happy to follow up. I think my last comment would just be the reminder. I love your diversity comment, but I think all ministry is contextual and I think if we could be far more trusting of one another, that you trust that I love Jesus, I love our sacramental theology, I do ministry a little bit different than the next guy, but it's contextual, and so I'm reaching people that you're probably not going to reach and you're reaching people I'm probably not going to reach, kind of thing. And through it all, through the diversity of our church, we reach a very diverse world that's in desperate need of Jesus. So that's it.
Speaker 2:That is it. This is lead time. Please like, subscribe, comment wherever it is. You take in this podcast your comments and liking the podcasts on YouTube and are following us there. That goes an awful long way to having conversations that hopefully lead us toward health. In the Lutheran Church, missouri Synod. You're a gift buddy. I love you as a partner in the gospel, Tim, praying for you and your ministry, and thank you for being so kind of, honest, authentic and vulnerable in sharing your story today. You blessed us and I'm proud of you surviving that hard season by the grace of God, and we need leaders like you in the Lutheran Church, missouri Synod. It's a good day. Go make it a great day. Wonderful work, tim. Thanks.
Speaker 1:Jack. Thanks, tiki, good to see you, jack. You've been listening to Lead Time, a podcast of the Unite Leadership Collective. The ULC's mission is to collaborate with the local church to discover, develop and deploy leaders through biblical Lutheran doctrine and innovative methods To partner with us in this gospel message. Subscribe to our channel, then go to theuniteleadershiporg to create your free login for exclusive material and resources and then to explore ways in which you can sponsor an episode. Thanks for listening and stay tuned for next week's episode.