Lead Time
Lead Time
We're Jesus People First - Gospel Centered Leadership with Pastor Tom Pfotenhauer
The episode revolves around the themes of identity, community, and the joy of Jesus as central aspects of faith. Pastor Tom Pfotenhauer shares his extensive Lutheran heritage and emphasizes how belonging can empower congregants during struggles, illuminating the significance of hospitality and strong community ties in ministry.
• Discusses the significance of identity in Christ
• Shares experiences battling mental health struggles within the congregation
• Explores Lutheran theology as a source of healing and hope
• Highlights the importance of hospitality and personal connections in large church settings
• Stresses the values of humility and transparency in church leadership
• Encourages collaboration among different church sizes to foster unity
• Calls for innovative approaches to leadership development within the Lutheran Church
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Speaker 2:Welcome to Lead Time, tim Allman, here with Jack Kauberg, and I pray wherever you're taking this conversation, in the joy of Jesus who loves you. If you look at all of scripture and really all of our spiritual journey, it's God telling us hey, I love you, you're going to be okay, and let me show you the height and depth and breadth of my love through the cross and the empty tomb and through giving you my indwelling spirit to remind you of all the things that I say about you and to refute everything that the world and your sinful flesh say about you. It's just a, jack, being a Jesus follower is like the best thing ever, isn't it? Sure is this Jesus guy? He's kind of a big deal, and we pray that. On these podcasts you hear us talk a lot about Jesus and then how to, by the Spirit's power, the church can be mobilized to reach people who don't know about Jesus. I know that's going to be the focus of our conversation today with Pastor Tom Pfotenhauer.
Speaker 2:Tom and I have known each other gosh for probably, pastor Tom Fotenauer, tom and I have known each other gosh for probably I'll go back to seminary a little bit of overlap, but more closely connected over the last 10, 12 years as churches looking to go on mission. If you haven't heard about Woodbury, it's up in the Minneapolis area multi-site and they just have been on mission. Shout out to Dean Natasty, I know Dean Dean's going to actually be a guest coming up here. Longtime pastor at Woodbury and 12 years now Tom has been the lead pastor at Woodbury, but 16 years we were just actually talking about that transition being raised up as kind of a local pastor who'd been there for a season and went through the process.
Speaker 2:And now, tom, from afar, we look at Woodbury and I know so many of us just so much respect for you and what the Lord is doing and how you're kind of I mean, jack just returned from a conference there learning more about kind of the infrastructure, leadership, development, just so many things that the Lord is doing through Woodbury. So, first and foremost, thank you for your faithful leadership. Many, many are watching and having, I mean, what the Lord is doing at Woodbury. We need worthy rivals and you're not a rival, it's all about Jesus. But we need those kind of ministries that say, wow, there's more, there's always more, and you guys are one of those ministries that are kind of punching up and out for the sake of those who don't know Jesus. So thanks for who you are, tom.
Speaker 3:Wow, for the sake of those who don't know Jesus. So thanks for who you are, tom. Wow, thank you so much. It's such a joy to be with you today and, like you said, same team man. So, however, we can encourage each other I think is so important and just learning from each other. That's one of the big things that we do and what I'm so grateful for is not only to be a part of you know, helping folks in the kingdom, but also learning from people, lcms and outside of our own tribe, seeing what God is doing in ways that gosh, like you said, can help us connect with people so that they can know this Jesus who loves them so, so deeply, finding identity and meaning and hope and all that stuff that we have to offer, and get all the other stuff out of the way. Right, like that's what we want to be about. So grateful to be with you today.
Speaker 2:That is it Kind of opening question, tom. I remember when you were speaking at I think it was a mega church dinner of some sort, a larger church gathering, and you kind of. This is before. I knew much about you and you were talking about the synod. No, no, no, it was good. You were talking about the synod and you're like, I'm a I don't know, was it sixth generation LCMS pastor, a multi, multi, multi, multi, multi. I don't know if you're you and you and Claytor, you and Pastor Jeff Claytor in St Louis. You guys have a long line of LCMS pastors. What's that been like growing up with that kind of LCMS heritage, tom?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so actually I think I was thinking about this. Tim, I think I'm generation 13, 12 or 13.
Speaker 1:What.
Speaker 3:So yeah, it goes back to close to the Martin Luther era and actually I think President Harrison probably knows more about my family lineage and history than I do, so we could ask him about it. I know he loved my great grandfather who was president of the synod from 1910 to 1935. So kind of was there during that transition from German to English and kind of walking us through all of that stuff. Kind of fun fact about him. Back at that time the president's, you know dwelling or whatever they didn't have a special place for them, was just in their home and so in a house fire they lost like all kinds of files and stuff about the synod from that time way back in the day. So kind of interesting. I don't know a ton about him I know again President Harrison does.
Speaker 3:But yeah, man, the roots go deep, certainly in Lutheranism, and so I think there's a piece of me that loves our denomination, loves our history, loves how we can be about scripture and Jesus first, and that that's been a part of kind of my DNA and especially my dad who who started Woodbury Lutheran with my mom planted at 1965. And we've always had a different kind of sense around us where you know we want to be about the work of of Jesus, and so being Lutheran is important to us. Doctrine, theology, all of that really important to us, but not what we wear first, if that makes sense, not what we lead with. So we've always led with we're Christians first. My dad would always say, you know, I've shifted that a little bit to we're followers of Jesus first, like that's our big piece who happened to be shaped by Lutheran theology and doctrine, which is really important to us.
Speaker 3:But it's not like the main thing is, you know, we got to be talking about being Lutheran and all that all the time. It's just not what we've been about. But it's so interesting, because of this deep heritage and roots that we have in Lutheranism, that I was doing a message I think it was, I don't know, six, six, eight months ago or so, and it was about Paul, you know, talking about I could be bragging If I really wanted to. I'm a Jew, of Jews and all of that and I was pulling that out with kind of my Lutheran heritage, like if I wanted to, I could pull that out and play that card. But why would we do that when he?
Speaker 4:knows, paul was a lutheran so exactly right.
Speaker 3:Why would we do that when we could put jesus jesus first? So I think that's one area where it's played out. You know, another was going through through college and figure out what I wanted to be. My older brother's also a lutheran pastor. He actually just moved back to Minnesota after like 30 years in Chicago, which is awesome. But I was like I'm going to be good at anything other than being a pastor because everybody in my family has been.
Speaker 3:My sister led the DCU program out of Concordia, irvine. She's married to a LCMS pastor there up in Seattle. He's a great guy. And she's married to a LCMS pastor there up in Seattle. He's a great guy, peter. So you know we have all these sort of connections into the church.
Speaker 3:But my brother and sister and I kind of joke we didn't really know that we were Lutheran until we went away to college and everyone was like, oh my gosh, fotenhauer, we know that name and the professors, and we're like, what are you even talking about? And so it just wasn't. You know something that we we talked a ton about but definitely has has shaped us and I think given, like our whole family, a love for the local church, as you talked about in the introduction, tim. We had a great experience in the local church for all three of us to go into ministry. Something had to be right and it wasn't without fault. And it's not that there weren't challenges and that my parents didn't, you know, always get it right or whatever, but we had a great experience within the church. I have been blessed by that and now I think we want others to experience that same goodness in their lives.
Speaker 2:Yeah, amen. We talk a lot about mission here and kind of the grand narrative of God's love story to get all of his kids back from creation to recreation, and obviously Jesus being the center point of our story. How do you move from kind of the grand narrative of God's salvation story to then talk about what Lutheran theology offers? That that kind of piggybacks centers us on the work of work of Jesus. So I guess I'm asking you, what is your missional defense of Lutheranism?
Speaker 3:today. Yeah, what a great question. It goes back to identity. What a great question. It goes back to identity. I think people are just so hungry to find fullness and meaning and identity and that gift that's offered through grace, the grace of Jesus received in faith alone, promised in scripture, shaped by scripture. When that all comes together in somebody's life who's just struggling and wrestling for identity, I mean, what is better than that?
Speaker 3:And we've all had that experience where people just get that and see that we're kind of walking through a tough season in our congregation right now just with deaths. We've had a bunch of deaths. We had a younger guy who just a year ago, uh, got connected to, to Woodbury Lutheran. I had the honor of, of baptizing him this summer. Uh, out on our, our, our land, we've got some land, we do an outdoor worship, we baptized a whole bunch of people, uh, but he just took his own life and it's, oh my gosh, 51 years old, great guy.
Speaker 3:No, no signs.
Speaker 3:I mean, he'd been struggling and we'd been talking through that, both myself and our campus pastor at our original location, which walking with him, but one of the things that kept repeating from his, his family, who aren't connected here yet, and others who knew him, as he had this mantra of saying I finally feel like I've found a place where I belong, and we were going through catechism stuff together, spent that time, you know, discipling him, getting to know him and to see so much change and transformation as he was finding identity in Jesus, and then juxtapose that against what he was wrestling with oh my gosh, and how, how much pain and stuff that people carry with them that we don't even even recognize, but to be able to bring, uh, this, this true hope that we can't, we can't offer anything, and yet jesus loves us, right where we're at and is seeking to bring about life change and ultimately, you know, eternal life change.
Speaker 3:And we have this beautiful gift, right of grace and all that stuff that we can offer as Lutherans that is just so counterintuitive to the world and the striving of the world and even some other denominations and how they view salvation and justification and all the good big Lutheran doctrinal words.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, when you talk identity, you have to talk about baptism, right, and your brother in Christ has a new identity in Christ. And suicide is such a. I've done four funerals for suicide in the congregation and God does not abandon us in our lowest mental, emotional, spiritual moments, amen, uh, and the crosses is proof of it. And so, praise be to God, we have maximum assurance. Even through the most misunderstood, like so many questions, we get to point people to what Jesus did, what God, what the father, son and Holy spirit did to make him his own forever, and so that that that promise of salvation, the certainty that that brother rests with the Lord despite his mental health struggles, that is cause. I don't know. I don't know, honestly, if you don't have a sacramental means of grace perspective like we do, I don't know what you say.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, I don't know what you say. There's some stories of Luther back in the day. I mean he would do suicide funerals. He wanted people to know the hope of Jesus. So yeah that you moved to identity, we moved to baptism. It's maximum assurance of the promises of God. God smiles over us even in our darkest and lowest moments. Jack, anything more to add there?
Speaker 4:Yeah, just this concept of identity, this identity that's grafted onto you by God, by Christ, and now you are who God says, you are Forgiven, so good, restored, reconciled, right, and this is apart from what you've done. This is apart from what you're doing. It is based on God's word, and God's word reigns supreme over everything anything.
Speaker 3:his father looks at him and he says here's my dearly loved son. You bring me great joy and reminding our people that's how the father sees them. That's then what, what sanctification can grow out of this new life, can grow out of this identity that's been been given to us so for people to see that and unlock that in folks' lives. That's just so rewarding and so cool, and you just want that for more and more people.
Speaker 2:Hey, Jack, I'm reading that book. Well, and you too, Tom, by JD Greer, Win by Losing, and it's JD Greer's approach on launching new ministries. They have a multi-site approach, just like we do, both of our congregations but they also pride themselves on sending folks, and one of their mantras, Jack, that I hope we can adopt is the gospel is not the diving board, it's the entire pool. It's the entire pool. Isn't that cool? Isn't that cool? Because a lot of times you can think oh, you know, Jesus saved me. Now you know here.
Speaker 2:Here's what all these things checklist of spiritual things that I got to figure out now. No, no, no, the whole journey is filled with the freedom of the gospel and your new identity in Christ. And now learn the easy, light way of following after Jesus. Who has these invitations? To be sure, but it's because of his love. The Lord disciplines those whom he loves. It's not this hateful, vengeful, angry God. No, that anger, that wrath has been placed in his son so that his kindness can shine on us. I mean, the gospel is the best thing ever. I want to swim in that pool all day long.
Speaker 2:Tommy, anything more to say about that?
Speaker 3:I love what you said there, the light way of following Jesus. You know, we did a series from some of John Mark Comer's stuff a couple of years ago and just that whole idea that the way of Jesus is actually freedom. There's freedom in it. It's not burdensome, it's light. I just so appreciate that word because we do make it, make it heavy and it doesn't mean that it's. It's easier. We don't have struggles and wrestling. There's a difference right between, I think, easy and light, but us shifting it away from burdensome and just joyful. I said in my message on sunday uh, the church doesn't need more angry christians, the world doesn't need more angry christians like, let's move you away.
Speaker 3:Jesus can defend himself Like God can defend himself. He's good. We don't need to defend him. He's good, he's got it. But let's let joy just exude from us to the world around us and show people what it looks like to follow Jesus in that way.
Speaker 2:Joy is the seminal emotion that connects us to the Father and His Son and the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit gives joy. The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, etc. And that moves us into deeper relationship one to another. I've been praying for connection and deeper love and care and understanding between churches, pastors, between pastors. This was my doctorate work, studying the traits and characteristics of pastors who collaborate in mission and looking at our church and church body and saying why aren't pastors and churches working together more consistently and over time, especially having a lot of conversations with leaders? And there goes, jack, if you're watching on YouTube, jack just popped Peace Jack, working with churches that are larger, smaller and everywhere in between. We oftentimes we're a very tribal culture and we develop even tribes in the Missouri Synod and I, so I'll be a little pointed with mega church or large church network. Shout out to Tim and Eker.
Speaker 2:We've interviewed a number of these guys and we're in that, and so if you can't kind of challenge your own tribe watch out you know. So we need a lot more intention to go and love our brother in smaller or medium-sized congregations because we can develop these caricatures. So second question, tom what is a caricature of a large church pastor that you would love to see corrected in the wider conversation here in the LCMS?
Speaker 3:Yeah, specifically LCMS. Man, I've been thinking about this question since you sent it out and there's a bunch of ways I could go, but I think I landed on this way that sometimes we in large churches as pastors, we get seen as kind of just CEOs and you know we don't really care for people or we're not engaged in people's lives. One of our differentiators at Woodbury Lutheran and I know we got a later question on this is we are a large church but we are small, and so we say large but small, and so we try to live out that value in all kinds of different ways. I'm so accessible, I'm too accessible. My assistant tells me A lot of people have my cell phone number. I get texts all the time from folks. I'm checking in on people.
Speaker 3:At my heart I'm a pastor and I just happen to be at a large, large setting and so when it came to COVID we'll go back to that super fun time and all the controversy around communion and getting people communion my pastor's heart went to how do I get my people the sacrament? And it just so happens that you know we got 4,000 people that were shepherding. So I got to figure out how to do that differently than my brother at a church with 40 people that they can set up four services with 10 people. That just wasn't going to work for me. And so, as a pastor, and as a Lutheran pastor who believes in the power of the sacrament, that Jesus is actually present in the bread and the wine, and because he's present he's bringing forgiveness of sin and he's strengthening our faith, how can I not figure out a way, as somebody's pastor, to get that to our people? And one of the stories that just blew me away is we had a lady sitting at home and she was in hospice and she was dying, and this was really early when we were trying to figure this all out and her whole family was with early when we were trying to figure this all out, and her whole family was with her and they were watching online and we had done all kinds of teaching around this, but they were able to take the sacrament together one last time during that service, just about an hour before she died. And that entire family each of them wrote me notes, sent me letters, called me on the phone and all of them just said thank you for making this opportunity happen, because we could not have imagined not having this one last time to have communion with our mom and grandma and sister.
Speaker 3:So I think that's a caricature that we get Like we're just CEO trying to grow, watering down the gospel, all about business stuff, that we have all kinds of money and resources, you know. I think it's sort of like we talk about with our kids, tim, like little kids, little problems, bigger kids, bigger problems. I think it's sometimes that way in the church like there's just more opportunities for mess in a larger church because you're dealing with more people right and more sin. It's compounded. But there's also then the other side of it is there's great opportunities to make big impact. That's what I love about the multi-site model, sight model. It's one of the reasons why our future locations that we're looking at will continue to be on a smaller side, because we want to have impact of large church but able to walk together, care for each other, ministry to each other in a smaller way as well.
Speaker 2:Hey, no, that's good, this is so fun and we're going to kind of shift now a bit and talk about leadership. This is a leadership podcast and I love that. You kind of piggyback on the bigger problems, bigger community, et cetera. Your your top three ways, tom, that you work as a, as a pastor, a lead pastor, to maintain a healthy relationship with your congregation board and staff. How are you trying to build that healthy relational culture there at Woodbury, tom?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so keeping healthy relationships super important. I've been blessed with a fantastic board for 12 years. The leadership and the health in that it's been so great. And staff we've got a wonderful staff, not without challenges, like every place. It's like a family, right. You're together all the time.
Speaker 3:Personalities, strengths, and then to the congregation. And so there's a few things. A couple that really popped to mind is just being really humble, tim. In leadership I want to be able to say when I make a mistake and I probably don't always still get that right and I can get defensive and dig in my heels and all that but just being open, humble about how we're walking, certainly don't have all the answers and so bringing that spirit to our staff, but also then to our board and ultimately to the congregation. And then transparency. You know it's just so important.
Speaker 3:I think, especially in this day and age, I get too caught up in the algorithms on X around pastors and churches that are falling and you, just you get man. There's so many just gross stories right about pastors using their positions for, you know, sexual abuse or money stuff, all of those things, and so how can we just be really transparent about, you know, financial issues, our own struggles. We just did a shift in our constitution and we added something in there called a pastoral support team, and so now all of our pastors have four to five men that we have a part in choosing, that are holding us accountable. But it's not necessarily, you know, on the work side of things, but it's spiritual health, emotional health, physical health, relational health, and I just had my first meeting with those guys. I think it was two and a half of just them pouring into me and me being humble and transparent about where I'm feeling challenged, where the devil attacks me, all those kinds of things.
Speaker 3:And so, thirdly, then with it is just being available. I think that's so important not just cloistered away. And as as I think that's one of the challenges, tim's, you're feeling with, with multi-site, you know I'm senior pastor, lead pastor over all of our campuses, but we have campus pastors at each, each location. So how do I still pastor people that I'm not in front of a whole lot, that don't see me as their pastor, which is okay, which is good. They see their campus pastor as their pastor, but I still, you know, have a have a part in setting culture, which is so, so important. I think that's another, if you just want to put that as sort of the umbrella over over all three areas, just setting healthy culture.
Speaker 3:And thank you to my dad and to Dean Attesty and to all the leaders who've gone before me here at Woodbury Lutheran. You know, I got to step into a healthy culture, which is pretty awesome, and so one of my prayers is just don't screw this up. You know, I think on my worst days, yeah, I'm in the, I'm in that place where I could really mess this up, and then it's like, no, this isn't really dependent on you, you, knucklehead, just lean into Jesus more. Yeah, so all those things work together and we don't get it right, certainly all the time, but sure, strive to and just you know being humble and transparent.
Speaker 2:Humility, transparency, availability, huge, huge in a complex organization like Woodbury Lutheran. And that's what I've loved about you. It appears and this is my context like I'm not a big deal. I like, I I am very much, I'm one leader among many leaders, with a small set of skills, but there's a whole bunch of needs in the community and, Tim, just know your role and don't try to, you know, outkick your coverage, because it's not like, just stay in your lane, bro, you know, and and talking and casting vision and and making sure we're agreeing or disagreeing in a Jesus centered way, Like that's, that's kind of my role. And then a lot of other people have to do a lot of other things, but I, I don't feel like I'm on a like I'm on a pedestal where Satan's like oh, he's obviously coming after the head, no, no, no, there's a lot of heads here, if you're going to come at this place, you're going to have to cut and accountability in terms of our governance, to be sure, but then the way it actually gets lived out is very egalitarian.
Speaker 2:Is that kind of a similar way in Woodbury's family there, tom?
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, that's really good. I like how you put that. We've switched to a business operating system about a year and a half ago called EOS Entrepreneurial Operating System and so that's moved around our accountability chart and so we've gotten clear on that, getting the right person, right seat with the right capacity, all those and there's been some hard conversations along the way and it's not easy but it's really helped us around values, staff values, and so we're, you know, doing our reviews on those, hiring on those, all those kinds of things and focusing in on what the culture is that we we want it to be, and bringing on a campus pastor at our original location about a year and a half ago great young guy, Daniel Languish, who you know very well, Tim very well, working with his dad for a bit. That's been freeing me up in my role to think more culture, vision, leader of leaders and the kind of overall spiritual leader of the congregation. But in that I'm feeling more and more like a pastor, even to our staff, and thankfully we've got some other really great people who help with that role, Just checking in and making sure that you know staff is doing okay, so I can be more of their pastor than their boss. I've got an executive director now that can do that. You know, that's been really, really helpful.
Speaker 3:But yeah, we have to lead from the bottom. I like to say, Tim, I mean, we can't. There's nothing that's below me. Like, I love the ministry here. There's all kinds of things that I love to do that's different sometimes than my lane. That just shows, hey, I'm a regular person and I'm going to pick up garbage, I'm going to set up chairs, you know, because that's what, what, what leaders do. Servant leadership is kind of an oxymoron to me. All leadership should be servant. That's what leadership is. So I don't know how we've had to add that that first part of it Cause that's the definition of leadership when you look at the life of Jesus is being a servant. So hopefully I'll lead that way. I'm definitely not a micromanager and all that, but you know I don't know that you could be.
Speaker 2:I don't know that you could be a micromanager with the complexity of Woodbury or Christ Greenfield Like you would. You would burn out. You'd be way too way too overwhelming. So I'm curious about the org. How many direct reports now do you have, tom? I have one, jack, you and I have been talking One executive director Yep.
Speaker 3:Yep, and then he's got, I think, six. Now I'm also in a couple other boxes so I sit on our pastor team. But it's kind of funny, one of our campus pastors who's actually in the SMP process right now, so he's not even a pastor yet he leads that team. So I'm kind of underneath him on that team, which is fun. But I play a certain role on that team and you know we have a leader team meeting where obviously my input comes into into play. But as far as direct reports, it's just like you guys you know, executive director, which is great. I love it Cause I think that's crazy.
Speaker 2:You think, well, we'll say more. What do you stink at, tom?
Speaker 3:Like managing people and like all the yeah, yeah. You probably stink at it too, tim, you know the do you have your reports? In and show me your, your quarterly goals and break all that down and let's talk about it. I'm as bad at that as I am counseling, so keep me away from counseling. And yeah, yeah, hey, I cut out there for a second.
Speaker 2:Anyway, let's get into vision and values. Mm-hmm, yeah, yeah, hey, I cut out there for a second. Anyway, let's get into vision and values. Talk about vision and values in your pastoral leadership. And how are you kind of holding and we've talked about it a little bit, but holding multi-site together and giving enough kind of clarity, unity, but also freedom in those respective sites? Talk about that, Tom.
Speaker 3:Yeah, such a great question and challenge. Maybe it was easier when my great grandpa was circuit riding through Minnesota and preaching at all these different places and trying to bring unity that way we talk about our multi-site is connected but contextual, and so we've got all the you know, campus constants and what things have to be the same, et cetera, et cetera. The one area where we really I think our challenge in trying to figure out is on preaching. So our main preaching delivery system is live, and so each campus the campus pastor will preach a fair amount. I preach at our original location a fair amount. We are doing some more broadcast, but not a ton, and so a campus is gonna take on the personality of the person they hear preaching the most, and so we spend a ton of time on our pre-work around what the sermons, you know the main talking points, are going to be. So that's kind of the same. You know we're definitely not doing different series on different campus or stuff like that, series on different campus or stuff like that. So we're very united in that. And yet there's the beauty and the challenge of the personality of the local pastor and so, as we're thinking about our vision, like our dream is a 15 year target that we would have a campus of Woodbury Lutheran within reach of everyone in the Twin Cities, and we don't know a number on that. We didn't say like we want 10 more in 10 years. It's just kind of where the spirit is moving and leading, but also being intentional about it.
Speaker 3:Right now we're trying to figure out scalability on multi-site Like can we continue to scale the way we're doing things? And the answer is probably no, for a couple of reasons. One, the unity factor. How do we remain really united in vision and in mission direction that we're headed, but also in leadership development, which is near and dear in your heart. And raising up pastors. Man like, how do we find pastors that fit our culture, that have our, to use the word, that fit our culture, that have our, to use the word DNA, but also have a super solid grounding in theological training that's robust but that's also financially affordable?
Speaker 3:All those things we want to raise up people from within, which I believe is the New Testament model for how the church did it. When I read through the New Testament, it seems like that's how they did it. It seems like things like ordination and that belonged to the local congregation, not to denomination. So how do we walk through all of that with our denomination in a way that's honoring and respectful to them but also not a hindrance to the mission, not of Woodbury Lutheran, but the mission of Jesus, which is always what we're about? We're not building the kingdom of Woodbury, we're building the kingdom of Jesus. That's what we want to be about.
Speaker 3:And so the scalability around that. You know, we've got four really good communicators now around that. We've got four really good communicators now. But to continue to find that we're not young anymore, tim, so 47, I am, I think you're 45. Who are we raising up to come in after us and then on our campuses it's just not going to get any simpler trying to call from the field and all that stuff. So, hey, yeah, let's raise them up within Jack.
Speaker 4:We need to be rethinking the logistics on that specific issue as a church body. Yeah, because I mean there's tons and tons of research behind this that the church bodies that have the most success in growth and multiplication in today's day and age rely very, very, very heavily on the local church being the training ground for the future generation of pastors and directors. They are being raised up from within, they're being trained within, they're being supplemented in many cases with really, really great, uh, non-residential education materials, right, and they're applying it in the local church and so it's not a send somebody away for five years and then maybe you get them back. It is they're serving locally learning locally and
Speaker 3:applying everything at the same time tim, maybe you know this better than I do, but I was having I was leading chapel with our team over at Concordia, st Paul, last week, which was awesome, just to get over there, and they've had a kind of we had so many openings and not enough guys were completely trained that they just said, okay, after year one we're just sending you out. And like we sent out 125 pastors that didn't have full seminary training out in the congregations, did I? Did I make that up? Did I eat some bad Chinese food? Did that happen somewhere along the way?
Speaker 2:You didn't make it up, and it was a lot. It was in your grandpa's great grandpa's season. When the LCMS is shifting from a largely Germanic and German speaking church body to we're going to go to places where their English is a predominant language and so the seminary training in those years was primarily so they could learn English well and then translate it theologically and they would be sent out. But ongoing education was the norm. But yeah, and we have gosh President Newman down in Texas. His book Gospel DNA tells that story very, very well and it was about what the local church needed. It was always the institutions existed for the advancement of the gospel and there were a number of different pivot points from Springfield being a very practical, non-degraded seminary. That's where my father went.
Speaker 2:Yeah, my grandpa went there back in the day. I've told his story a number of different times, but he felt second rate. There's always been this second rate, whether it's S&P or non-degraded. This has been going on for like a century or so in the LCMS. He felt second rate because the vast majority of guys shortly after he left Springfield were getting a Master of Divinity and so he got a Master's in Social Work just so he could say I got a Master's too, fellas.
Speaker 2:You know that kind of thing, kind of silly. But yeah, there's been different pivot points in the LCMS. So, as we're having pivot point conversations today, this is nothing new. Leaders, this is what the church does. It responds to the times. We're one of the few denominations of our size that does not have an online MDiv for second career leaders, so let's have that conversation with those that can make the changes. I say this on about every fourth podcast, but this is a call to the Pastoral Formation Committee, tallman at cglchurchorg and we're gonna be having more conversation with that group and praying that that group and the leaders from Synod Convention to Synod Convention will respond. Having more conversation with that group and praying that that group and the leaders from Synod Convention to Synod Convention will respond and we can work toward unity to solve this great need for local churches, small and large, to raise up local leaders. We can do it.
Speaker 2:There's nothing in Scripture and the confessions that's prohibiting us outside of institutional preservation, that prohibits us from having this conversation, and this will not hurt the local institution. This will not hurt our seminaries. It will only amplify their brand, not to use a secular language. When the institution adjusts, the brand of the institution grows and more people want what that brand offers at the local level. So this is not against residential at all, it's to compliment. So yeah, tom, you put a quarter in me, I get going with that, but you prime the pump there, buddy. We need to reconsider our leadership development strategies at every level, at every level, from serve, lead, coach, direct. This is a lot of what the ULC does, and the reason we're having these conversations is because we have visions to start new churches, to reach new people with the gospel and we want to raise them up locally. Tom, you want to put a bow on that present of leadership development.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so good man, I feel like it's with the whole conversation around should you live stream your service or just have people inside that actually the research shows both work together to actually help in-person growth.
Speaker 3:And it's the same thing here with leadership as you were just talking about. This isn't saying residential is bad or wrong, like it served me really well, but there are so many people in our congregation that we could raise up into pastoral ministry that it would not make sense for. But we've made an idol and I'll just say it. We've made an idol out of the institution and I don't want my hands to be on that idol when Jesus comes back and says what have you done with your talents, man? Like let's move past the idol to ministry and celebrate what has been. And of course that's always painful and there's all kinds of stuff caught up in the institution. But let's right-size it. And who knows, I think you're right as more folks come in, maybe a non-residential route, then we'll bring some even younger folks that want to take the route that we took because it's valuable.
Speaker 4:You know the truth is that you see more people going through that route and the transformation that it makes on those people. More young people are going to say I'm going to want to do it and a lot of those young people is going to make sense to do that. Residential I think it would expand the enrollment personally.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, grand Canyon is a great example of that here. Right, I mean, they started out, they shifted the model to online, made it cost effective, and now what? Their ground game is booming.
Speaker 1:Could we do?
Speaker 2:that in the leadership development pastoral formation it wouldn't boom like GCU does but, man, a slightly more aggressive boom in raising up pastors locally could really help with the advancement of the gospel in this day and age and we're going to need more. I like your move towards smaller multi-sites. You may have one of your sites that's slightly one, or two of your sites that's slightly larger, but I think for a season, for a generation, we need to have a model that serves people between and I don't know, jack and I debate about the scope and size et cetera, but somewhere between the 50 to 200 mark, like a site could. From a micro site you get a little bit larger than a micro site. You get it up in the 50, 75 range. But is there a model for us to raise up leaders local that could pastor that group of people well, and a lot of times they may not even be full-time leaders. They could be on a team and they're serving bivocationally. Anything more to say there, tom?
Speaker 3:Yeah, and that's where, then, using technology, like Luther did, like piping in a message, for example can be really helpful. So then, that pastor that's maybe co-vocational, bivocational, whatever you want to say doesn't have to spend 15 hours prepping a message but spends 15 hours caring and discipling for the people, that, yeah, exactly Right. And and they, they still see them as their person, but it, you know, it, takes the gifts that we've all been given, and they're different and allows us to step, step into our lanes. I just don't know why we have to be afraid of, or so, yeah, way back to what you were saying at the beginning of this, tim and I know we got to wrap up here soon this idea of how do we as pastors come more together with trust and building that trust between small churches, medium churches, large churches, same team.
Speaker 3:We love Lutheran theology, we're all doing our best. Let's actually take the high road and trust that about each other, instead of always coming in with suspicion, or I'm better than you, or judgment, all these things that gosh Jesus prayed against. You know, I pray that they would be one and that their unity would be so great that people would see us. You know, father, son and Spirit living in them. And if we can't model that as pastors, then seriously, what chance do our people have? And then take it another level what chance does the world around us, do people have of catching what we're about? Amen?
Speaker 2:Amen as people come onto the Woodbury campus, and I can't wait I'm actually going to be there at the Wally Conference next year. That's going to be super fun to get to hang out with you guys. But as people come onto your campus, you guys have been really, really striving to excel at hospitality. Talk about some of the ways that Woodbury is excelling at hospitality and you've got to get to the name badges.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I will for sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, let's go, let's talk hospitality to close here, tom.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I can do that. So I'll give all the credit to Daniel Langlish, one of our associate pastors, and to the folks who who came before him. We had a lot of good hospitality stuff going but it just wasn't. We weren't working together. So campuses were kind of doing their own things and, frankly, the smaller campuses were doing a better job than our original campus, like with food and just setting a warm environment and the way that the buildings are set up. It's a little bit easier for them to connect with folks. But Daniel's done a great job of getting team leads in place at all three locations. They're working together. We're taking ideas from each other.
Speaker 3:One of the ideas that one of our smaller campuses had launched was a pre-service huddle devotion. Do some vision? Just talk about stories, that kind of stuff. Two weeks ago at our Valley Creek campus I think we had like 80 people in that pre-service huddle, which is like this is awesome. I think we counted we had almost 200 people serving that day across campuses. That were all getting that same message and you know. So that stuff is really great. But then that sets a place of culture of warmth and greeting. That just permeates the place, man, and I'm so grateful for that. People walk in and there's just a different sense. You know it's the Holy Spirit is at work through people noticing others checking in on others. Hey, that person is new. I'm going to go talk to them, just making sure that people are getting connected. And then, of course, that goes into assimilation stuff and small groups and serving and and all of that.
Speaker 3:But maybe one of the biggest changes that I know you want me to get to is is name tags, and so we have a check-in system and I don't know if it crashed for you guys yesterday you're West coast so but it crashed on us Planning center like went down. So people are trying to check in and it was not working and they're like frustrated because they can't get these name tags. And so at each of our campuses, folks come in. They just type in their phone number you can also use a QR code and it in a second it pops up a name tag and they put that on. Joel's been doing some work on this. I think about 80% of our folks once we compare it against the head counts for the day are checking in, so eight out of 10 people will have a name tag on, and just the other day at I was talking to a woman about it and she said the first time I went down for communion and both you and the other assistants said my name. She said I just started crying and what this has done to just bring about connection to people.
Speaker 3:I know a lot of folks' names, but in that second where I see them, they walk up to me, I often don't remember it. I see them, they walk up to me, I often don't remember it. So, to see a name tag and to be able to call people by name, not have those awkward conversations, we're still trying to figure out how you do this with new people and making sure that they're getting engaged, don't feel left out because they don't have it. And the first week of every month we talk about it in service, like here's why we're doing it, set some of the vision, because we do have some folks that are like oh, you're just being big brother and trying to get our data, and part of it is, yes, because we want to shepherd you.
Speaker 3:Well, this goes back to the large but small thing, and so if folks are checking in to worship, then there's patterns that we can use for data to see if somebody's away and check back in on them and and that kind of stuff. So it is really all about how do we care for people? Well, in a large setting and I'm the first to say I was totally wrong I said this won't work. People won't do it. You're crazy. And now I wouldn't, I wouldn't go back. So way to go, joel, you, you, you did it.
Speaker 2:Well, you know what's on our? I have executive staff coming up today, name tags Jack. Why hasn't this happened yet? We got to make it happen.
Speaker 4:We're getting thirsty for it.
Speaker 1:I'm hungry man.
Speaker 4:We just transitioned into PCO. Like we're like brand new.
Speaker 3:Oh man.
Speaker 4:But we're thirsty to get all of this stuff implemented. I got a fever. I got a fever for more name tags. Let's go.
Speaker 2:That's so cool. Yeah, Tom, this has been awesome. Brother, You're a gift to me, You're a friend and I'm so glad you're a part of the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. If you have a vision two or three kind of cultural staples in our church body you'd love to see, say, in the next decade or so the LCms is known for this. How would you feel?
Speaker 3:fill in that blank, buddy oh, that's so good, um, I think, unity, um, solid teaching, and then also on the edge. Could you imagine that if we were on the edge of using new systems and new thinking and technology to reach people for Jesus? But that is so grounded in our heritage. Luther did this. Y'all like we get to do this. We get to. Let's stop being afraid, right, let's stop saying we got to be doing this. I'm on the board for Lutheran Hour Ministry and the stuff that they're doing is just fantastic. Through our ministry and the stuff that they're doing is just fantastic, incredible, you know, on the edge of reaching people for Jesus. So, yeah, we, of course, we want to be known for, for our love and we want to be, we want to be more like Jesus. So I guess that would be my big prayer that we would be becoming more like Jesus and people would see that and by doing so, we would help others to find their identity in him.
Speaker 2:Hey, this has been great, Tom. How can people connect with you and Woodbury's mission if they'd like to do so?
Speaker 3:Oh sure, wlcchurch is our website. You can learn more about us there. I'm on most of the social platforms. Good luck spelling my last name. You can figure it out X and all that stuff. Yeah, would love to love to connect with folks more. My email is real simple Tom at Woodbury Lutheran dot org. If I can be of any kind of help, or our team, for any of you, we'd love to talk multi-site planning center, online worship stuff, planning center online worship stuff. We've got a great confirmation curriculum. We changed that whole journey a few years ago. Kids opt into that anytime between seventh and 12th grade to be set up to be disciples for life. So happy to talk about any of that stuff.
Speaker 2:Amen, love it. This is lead time. If you would like and subscribe wherever it is, you take this in YouTube and beyond. That really helps get the word. The algorithms really really helps get the word. The algorithms really really help get Jesus-centered.
Speaker 2:Conversations like this moving forward, that are filled with joy, hope, creativity, kind of best in show practices, like the name tag that's going on right now at Woodbury. So, so exciting and ultimately that hell would be depopulated and heaven would be populated because of these conversations that give the freedom of the gospel to the everyday follower of Jesus who have been made new by Christ, to invite others to draw near to Jesus, to experience his love, his kindness, his smile, and then to smile back at him and then to have the joy of Jesus be what moves us out into relationship, especially for those that are walking in the heaviness and darkness of this day and age. They need the light and the love of Jesus and that's what this conversation provided. Jack, you're awesome, dude, grateful to partner with you and Tom, honored to call you a friend. And this is Lead Time. We'll be back later this week with another fresh episode. Thanks, tom, thanks.
Speaker 1:Jack. Thanks, guys Appreciate it. You've been listening to Lead Time, a podcast of the Unite Leadership Collective. The ULC's mission is to collaborate with the local church to discover, develop and deploy leaders through biblical Lutheran doctrine and innovative methods To partner with us in this gospel message. Subscribe to our channel, then go to theuniteleadershiporg to create your free login for exclusive. Thanks for listening and stay tuned for next week's episode.