Lead Time
Lead Time
Faith, Sacrifice, and the Future of the LCMS with Pastor Jeff Cloeter
https://lovedsent.org/
What happens when the calling of faith meets the complexities of modern life? Pastor Jeff Cloeter joins us for a heartfelt discussion about the joys and trials faced by pastors today. From extraordinary stories of faith, to the core mission of transforming hearts and spreading God's love, we explore the evolving landscape of pastoral ministry. Pastor Jeff shares his unique insights into the profound ways the church has adapted in recent years, bringing a fresh perspective to the enduring power of the gospel amidst societal changes.
As we journey into the heart of the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod (LCMS), we confront the pressing themes of sacrifice and legacy. With a nod to the church’s frontier past, Pastor Jeff reflects on the radical call of the gospel and the sacrifices it demands in an era where Christendom is losing its societal grip. This isn't just about maintaining tradition; it's about reinvigorating the church with a missionary spirit and fostering a renewed sense of purpose. We delve into the challenges of declining membership and seminary enrollment, while also spotlighting the pockets of vibrancy and growth that offer hope for the future.
The conversation takes a visionary turn as we discuss the fostering of new generations, workers, and ministries within the LCMS. Pastor Jeff emphasizes the importance of succession planning and innovation, urging a collaborative effort to revitalize the church's mission. From the vibrancy of multi-ethnic congregations in the least-churched areas to the promise of greater collaboration across cities, we paint a picture of a church ready to embrace change and take righteous risks for the sake of continuity in faith. Join us as we celebrate the potential for sacrificial sending and dream of a future filled with prayer, connection, and impactful ministry.
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Speaker 2:Tim Allman here. Jack Kalberg is actually under the weather today, but I pray you're not under the weather. I pray you're lit up, overjoyed for the mission, the love, the life, the calling that Jesus has given to you in your baptismal identity, to be a light out in the darkness, to carry yourself with great joy, with great hope, with the peace of Christ that surpasses understanding, as we bring God's never-changing world well, the world needs to be changed, but His never-changing Word into an ever-changing world. So today I get to hang out with one of my favorite people on planet Earth. I got the chance to interview this guest gosh on American Reformation maybe a year ago or so on that podcast, and the days are too short for us to not have Jeff Claytor, Pastor Jeff Claytor, back on Lead Time today. How are you doing, jeff?
Speaker 3:Hey, I'm doing great, Tim, Thank you for doing this podcast. I don't know how you have the time to crank out this content and the variety of people you have on here. Tim is needed. We need a venue where there's really good dialogue with all kinds of voices, and somehow you're doing it. I don't know where you have the time, but thank you.
Speaker 2:Well, no, right back at you. All the way you're trying to serve the church and I have an amazing Jesus and a wife and a church and an assistant by the name of Don I rarely mention Don McCannon is unbelievable. So my days when I'm here are full right Between meetings, just having conversations, and I'd much rather have full than lazy days wondering about what am I going to preach for. There's all sorts of people doing all sorts of things and this is a calling with the ultimate. I mean this is the ULC Unite Leadership Collective, with the ultimate hope that the world would see Jesus in our small corner of the kingdom. In the LCMS, by the way, we're united and loving one another and then disagreeing agreeably and so just trying to model that sort of discourse and, frankly, I got a lot to learn from a lot of different leaders and I just love to ask questions and soak it all up, and that's what we're going to do today.
Speaker 2:So, jeff Claytor, if you don't know him, husband, father, pastor, speaker, writer, author of Loved and Sent, came out gosh, eight, seven, eight. How long has that been now, jeff? I don't know Something like that. Eight years, yeah, so good. He's been at Christ Memorial. How long have you been at Christ Memorial there in St Louis?
Speaker 3:This is my 20th year at Christ Memorial, and it's a long time. I've been trying to get out of St Louis for 20 years and God has seen fit to keep me here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, good, good, I'm glad you're there. His position as a tenured St Louis pastor puts him at a crossroad of networks and institutions and he gets to hang out with so many leaders within and outside of the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. But let me start out with this question. Let's just talk about the joy of being a pastor in 2024 in our various contexts me and Gilbert Phoenix, you there in the St Louis area what do you love most about pastoring this day and age, jeff?
Speaker 3:Oh, being a pastor. First let me say, tim, I don't know if you feel this way I've been a pastor 20 years. The last five have been unlike the previous 15. And there's just different. And I've had to find myself just tweaking different muscles, using different muscles that I maybe didn't use as much before. So I kind of joke with friends who are in institutional ministry or who are professors and I say I don't know if you could get back in the game now. You've been out too long. Get back on the court and do pastoral ministry.
Speaker 2:How did they receive that? How did they receive that, jeff? What responses have you received? Yeah, it's a jest or what. They're friends.
Speaker 3:So we can joke and laugh. And of course the core of the ministry doesn't change teaching, preaching, administering sacraments but there are there are other components to ministry that we just have to be different. And so it's challenging but it's a lot of fun. And I would say, tim, what brings me joy is seeing the gospel work in spite of me. I know that seems like a pious answer, but the other week I probably had a 70-hour week and I was just working hard on meetings and organization.
Speaker 3:And then this young man named Shu comes and Shu grew up in a Chinese animist family and he works at a Best Buy and he met a friend who shared the gospel with him, came to faith and then found our church and wanted to be baptized. And we're like we can do that, let's talk. So Shu gets baptized. Then Shu starts bringing a friend named Alan. Alan is Bosnian, his parents are Muslim. Alan starts coming to church, he wants to be baptized and so he's getting baptized. This Sunday he's being baptized.
Speaker 3:I'm sitting down with him talking about baptism. We're literally walking through the catechism and Alan's like this is great. I'm like you have any questions? No, this is all amazing. And those are the moments you're like I just worked 70 hours and it had nothing to do with Shu or Alan being here, like that's the Holy Spirit and it's the power of the gospel and I know that's maybe again a doxological, pious answer, but when those things happen it reminds me that we actually believe this, we're not playing church. We actually believe the gospel has power and to see that happen, uh, humbles me and I just people coming to faith. That just gets me going.
Speaker 2:Well, that's why we, that's why the church exists, right To bring God's word to change human hearts from hearts of stone to soften to the truths of who God is and how he's revealed himself in Jesus Christ, and then to be a small part of that big mission that Jesus, it's the Matthew 28,. All authority in heaven and on earth. I was just reflected on this, did a small little devotional thought the other day. But the disciples come to Jesus says. The 11 are gathered, possibly on the mountain where the Mount of Transfiguration. They've gone back to Galilee. This is post-resurrection. And it says and they believe, but some of them doubted.
Speaker 2:You remember that text and Jesus right into the. And I think sometimes as pastors it's like I doubt if is any, is anything going to happen? Like, as I gather, as we gather, is anything happening? And then you get those moments where doubt is just rebuked by the power of the Holy Spirit and faith just falls upon people and it seems like it seems unbelievable, it's unexplainable how it works. And then they come to us and they're like what must I do to be saved? I mean it's literally the book of Acts coming alive and Jesus saying oh, I'm going to go back. All authority in heaven and earth has been given to me, and now I'm giving it out to you on your going various vocations.
Speaker 2:Here's what we do we make disciples by baptizing and by teaching them everything I have commanded you. And oh, if you start to freak out, thinking this is about you, you got all the meetings. You just feel overwhelmed and lost, rudderless out in the midst of the chaos of the world. I am with you always, even the very end of the age, you know, and we have no right. There's no grounds for pride, yeah, even even use grow weary. You know, we're kind of right in the middle point of our ministry and you can think ah, I think there's a lot of guys who are right there, jeff, just like.
Speaker 2:I don't know if I'm seeing the fruit, Just continue to faithfully preach the word and when God brings those people, baptize, baptize and do everything you can to meet felt needs. So more people would say man, I think I'm falling in love with Jesus, or maybe he's fallen in love with me. So is there a place where I can learn more about Jesus? And I pray our churches are hospitable enough to say, yeah, come on. Not only are we going to baptize you, we're going to catechize you, we're going to invite you into discipleship relationships. Oh, and then, in the midst of that, you're going to start to do the same with your close friends and family. Like that's how this thing works.
Speaker 3:And your close friends and family, Like that's how this thing works and and, uh, I can't. Yeah, it's, it's unbelievable. It's so unbelievable it's humbling, because sometimes you, yeah, we get caught up in the stuff that has to get done. Um, you know Eugene Peterson, uh, he has, uh, his book. The contemplative pastor, uh, you know, pardon me, but he, he says, uh, some, I got to a point where I was running this damn church and sometimes there is that we're just running a thing and there are first article things that need to be done, and I am for that and efficiency and good stewardship. But we all need those reminders as pastors. I think when the word does work and the gospel is powerful, we are not ashamed of it, and so those things just get me going and that's what keeps me going. Otherwise I might find another vocation, provide for my family in another way, but God gives those things and I'm actually really encouraged right now.
Speaker 3:Again, the last five years have been different than the previous 15. It's just different, but as much as there's challenge. I actually am seeing more like book of acts stuff happen in the last five years of my ministry than the previous 15. Just wild people that should not be at church are coming to the church. So as much as there's sort of this spirit of doom and gloom. And, yeah, 2020 accelerated the decline of Christendom by a decade at least. Things just got faster and the future came faster, but it's actually not as scary as we thought it would be. It's actually, I think, more exciting.
Speaker 2:For sure that's how the book of Acts plays out and I've heard gosh I can't remember I get to talk with so many people but I heard and I may have referenced this on different podcasts, but the shift from church growth roughly 60s into the early 2000s, kind of the rise of the megachurch and we're talking addition and then in a lot of the church, wider church literature, moving in from 2005 to 2020, we talked multiplication, a lot of books on multiplication and the Book of Acts kind of is our playbook right now. We recognize it post-Christian, post-modern, et cetera, or pre-modern, you may say, in some respects, as it turns. But I think COVID was a turning point where there are a lot of people. Right now we're going back. So I love this. Back from the book of Acts now we're going all the way back to Jesus and Luke and just the simplicity, the clarity that Jesus had in saying hey, hey, you, yeah, no, I'm not looking at everybody else. Hey you, peter, hey you, james, john, you guys leave and just come and follow me Like, come and learn the you mentioned, peterson, the easy, unforced rhythms of grace with me. Come see how I do life. And that's what people I think today are like. Does the church have a discipleship mechanism that allows life on life discipleship to occur? And we're seeing it more and more.
Speaker 2:I don't think of myself as like leading an organization per se, though there are some first article I just got done with a board meeting this last week, which our board's awesome.
Speaker 2:We're at a great spot there but I'm like just a storyteller of what God is doing, rather than running an organization. And we're storied beings to begin with, and maybe it's getting us back to the simplicity of telling the story of what Jesus has done and what Jesus is still doing by the power of his spirit today, where lives are being transformed, where authority is being given to go and declare the kingdom of God, to live in the values of the kingdom of God, to the least likely, the lowliest, the marginalized within our community. And does the LCMS this is one of our prayers right? Do we have arms wide open to people from all different backgrounds socioeconomic et cetera to come into our communities? And I'm praying there's going to be a big, a big shift toward reaching our communities and I'll just you're a part of it, You're a major part of it. Thanks for being an ambassador toward that end. Any, any follow-up to that, as we no preach, tim Ullman, just preach it.
Speaker 3:I got you going. You're preaching a sermon. That's great, tim Ullman just preach it.
Speaker 2:I got you going. You're preaching a sermon. That's great. Well, it's so good I get to talk to so many people that my mind kind of goes in a lot of different directions, like prayer. Are you guys focusing on prayer right now? A fair amount.
Speaker 2:Like our team, we've realized and maybe this is another COVID revelation that you can over strategize. You can do all these first article things, but how is the church growing in persecuted areas? It's through the power of prayer. It's. We get together in our homes, we listen to the word of God and then we pray, and in many of these communities we pray for a long period of time.
Speaker 2:So one of my things I'm thinking about kicking around I don't know how the business department will think about this, but let's go to our next executive staff meeting and, instead of praying and being in the word for five minutes to 15 minutes which is great and time in prayer for sure let's spend the first hour and 20 minutes of our 90 minute meeting in prayer and in the word and then see if something bubbles up in terms of strategy and next steps as we follow after Jesus. How amazing. So I'm even confessing, like the things of this world, like the Western mind gets in the way, I think, a lot of times of what the Holy spirit wants to, wants to do. Any observations there? Are you guys thinking?
Speaker 3:similarly.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I was just telling you before we went live here that we have an Amharic speaking Ethiopian service now in our church and we've had some Ethiopian members for a while and, as they are reaching other people, we started a service this last fall and I was with our Ethiopian leaders and they're speaking Amharic and they're kind of telling me what's going on.
Speaker 3:And they said, pastor, we're going to pray now and I said okay, and so I fold my hands and I bow my head, but then I look up and they're all on their knees. They turn their chairs around, got on their knees and bowed on the chair and then we prayed for a half hour and they would speak a petition out loud and then everybody would pray according to that petition. And that's a beautiful thing for me and also that we need them in our congregation and probably our church body to teach us how to pray, to ask, seek and knock. Jesus said so let's, they're actually pleading and pounding at the door, not just knocking, and so that's been a gift to us and I agree with your prayer, not just saying it sort of in a pious way like, yeah, we have to pray our prayers, but no, really earnest, frontline prayer.
Speaker 2:Yeah, amen, amen. All right, you're a longtime multi-generational pastor in the LCMS. Praise God for you. There's been claders that go back an awful long way. You can tell a little bit of your family story if you like here, but as you look at your the lineage, kind of the legacy what is something great in the LCMS that's asked of us right now? Jeff, what are your thoughts?
Speaker 3:Yeah well, I like that phrase and I've been using it that something great is asked of us, and I think that's a really apt line right now, because something great has been given to us. We believe the radical nature of the gospel of Jesus Christ, and so a severe response is also required. So, abraham, leave your country and your home and go to a land I promised you or, you know, deny yourself, take up your cross, follow me. It's always a severe call to something great and sacrificial, and so I think, in regards to the church today, we are in need of a moment, kind of a gut check, of a sacrificial spirit. So, have you heard the John Daly quote? You know the golfer, the fat golfer, john Daly, yeah, I know John Daly sure.
Speaker 3:He. I just heard this the other day I think he said it a long time ago where he said I'm fat. You can pull a muscle, but you can't pull fat, so I'm fat. You know. He was actually boasting in his obesity and I wonder if the church out of Christendom and Christendom is great, it's home field advantage when you have a prominent place in society and we have in the United States for a long time but as that shifts it makes you realize that Christendom could make you fat.
Speaker 3:We could get lazy too comfortable, and now we're in an era where maybe it's a little less comfortable and that's a good thing. So I don't get upset about the religious liberty talk. I think we need to say you know what will we actually sacrifice? The church is always strongest when she has to sacrifice, when she's under persecution, and so something great is asked of us, not a spirit of timidity or fear, but power, love and self-control. I think this is a moment where we are going to be tested as the American church and it's going to be a great witness when we have to sacrifice something actually bleed a little bit a little bit.
Speaker 2:Well, let's get, let's pull a muscle if the fat have that John Daly quote. Yeah, let's try and lean up and yeah, there can be some risks. There's going to be some pain. I think of, I think of working out right, there's your, your sore. It's just uncomfortable. But on the other side, I think a lot of times institutionally and individually, because individually we often represent what happens in the family and then an institution or in a synod. We just don't. We choose, and I think it's often subconscious rather than it is conscious. We choose short-term pleasure in exchange for long-term pain. We know it's going to come, but we just can't kick the can down the road. It's not a big deal. I can eat this, I don't need to have that difficult conversation whatever. But the way of Jesus appears to be pick up your cross and choose, by the Spirit's power, adventure to follow me. It's going to include loss, change, challenge etc. But the eternal rewards are quite fantastic.
Speaker 2:The long-term benefits for that choice by the Spirit's Power are pretty fantastic. So speak into more of what you think needs to be. When you say sacrificed for us right now, and specifically in the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, what are you aiming at?
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, I mean historically, Tim. We are a frontier people, we have immigrant roots and whether it was Perry County or the Wens in Texas or Leah's folks in Michigan, we are frontier people living on the edge, living on the margin and sacrificing. So my people as you know, I am here because of Leah's movement my ancestor, great, great great grandfather, sent to Michigan the first pastor of Holy Cross in Saginaw, then missionary to the Ojibwe people in Minnesota, built a cabin, lived in it, raised kids in the middle of the woods on the frontier, survived Minnesota winters and mosquitoes in the middle of the woods on the frontier, survived Minnesota winters and mosquitoes in the summertime. I don't know how he did that. That humbles me. That's part of the great cloud of witnesses that can humble you and, you know, will you risk your life for this. And so for me, no-transcript, and I say that to in our denomination we have a history of professional church work where it provides an income, and so when I talk about sacrifice for frontier people, I think we're at a place where we have to lean back into the frontier mindset.
Speaker 3:And what does that look like? It's a missionary mindset. It's a righteous risk. We have to be willing to take risks righteous risks, not foolish risks. A missionary line that I learned a few years ago is risk before resource. So you may not have the whole plan, you may not have all the money lined up or the resources, but sometimes the Spirit prompts you to take a risk and start something without having everything lined up. A frontier spirit means you're going to fail at times, but you fail fast, you get back up and you go again, and that's something that's a bit foreign again to sort of the Christendom model that we're sort of trained out of. Where there's a stability to the church institutions hold it up and you fit within that system. But now we're in a moment where I think we have to relearn the frontier spirit Again. The book of Acts, acts 1.8, jerusalem, judea, samaria, the ends of the earth it's a frontier movement and that's less stable. It requires more faith and it requires a severity of sacrifice.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Yep, amen. Hey, on what's that growth curve thing? Remember how organizations have a life cycle. Everybody knows it. People are. You start, and then you get up to your peak and you're about. You know, yay, we're doing great. And then you start to kind of struggle and there are some indicators, but you'd rather not acknowledge them. Some people are kind of discontent, but let's just silence them and then, before you know it, you may start a conversation, but it's kind of too late. The die has already been cast. There's not enough people around. I think the LCMS is right at this inversion curve where we need an iteration into a new season. And here's why Some of the stats the LCMS has lost roughly three quarters of a million baptized members from 2000 to 2020.
Speaker 2:That's roughly our ministry. So connected to the wider thing, jeff, we've struggled our years as pastors, right. So we had 2.5 million baptized, just about 2.6 million in 2000. Now 1.8 in 2020. And that number has most certainly declined further over the last four years. Residential seminary enrollment fell by 55% from 2010 to 2024. Over 40% of LCMS congregations roughly 2,600 of the 6,000 have fewer than and this has come out in a number I've heard 40 to 45 actually have fewer than 50 confirmed members. Oh, and here's that 45%, 45% of LCMS congregations worship less than 50 people Sunday.
Speaker 2:So, jeff, the day is here for us to recognize what is. This is what leadership does. We recognize what is and then we dream about what could be. We don't get crippled with fear. Numbers are numbers.
Speaker 2:I get sad as I look at that, because that decline is not just a demographic decline. It's people actively leaving. I don't know what the data is in terms of Gen Z, in terms of being engaged and retaining that generation, millennial generation. I don't think we've done as well as we historically did. Marriage is going back. Their kids are getting married later. That gap actually widens and I think then the cultural connection to cultural Christianity gets widened all the more. A number of reasons for this and there's no one person to blame. Every denomination is kind of mainstream denomination has similar trajectory right now. So it just is. And are we going to address it and get creative with the build measure, learn mindset to explore what another inversion growth curve could mean for us in the LCMS? And I pray. I pray at every different level. Every different leader says yeah, we want to work on this together, in all pockets of our Senate. Any response to that, though, jeff?
Speaker 3:Yeah, and, tim, you've had people on your podcast to talk in depth about the demographics before and you can comment a lot about the demographics. When I look at the demographics, yes, these are just facts, they're just facts, and so I operate with two words that start with an H honest and hopeful. So we got to be honest about it but, at the same time, a hopeful response. I am incredibly excited and hopeful at this very moment. I know that may sound kind of weird, but for some reason, when the church is on the ropes, when she's most on the ropes, that's when her Lord picks her up and there is a renewal Out of weakness and despair. That's exactly when. So there can be a lot of despair over the demographics, and I've kind of I'm kind of over the demographics and the numbers now and I'm looking for pockets of where, where the spirit of God is working. I'll give you an example In 2015, I wanted to learn from the frontier and I looked up in that year.
Speaker 3:The least church city in America was the San Francisco Bay area, and so the least Christians, least number of churches I'm like I want to go there Made some good friends of our LCMS churches that are there. A couple of good friends that are there Fabulous, Went and visited. I went every year until about 2020. I need to get back, but just to learn from the frontier, because as much you can hate San Francisco, but your iPhone is made out of there. It's a hub of culture and technology and so a lot of times what starts in cities like San Francisco or New York it finds its way everywhere in the Midwest. So I wanted to get out front.
Speaker 3:Churches closing all over the place, churches dwindling to five, ten people, way before it even was happening in the Midwest, and so I wanted to learn from them. And I found a church in which renewal is happening and has happened in Hayward, california, and now it's a multi-ethnic, vibrant congregation baptisms, confirmations happening seemingly out of the rubble, and you could examine that a lot of factors involved, certainly most prominently the Holy Spirit's work. So I tend to actually get hopeful. I tend to think. A friend of mine talks about the nurse log theory that you know, in forest systems, a log, an old tree, will fall, become sort of a dead log and then, if you've ever seen shoots, new trees growing out of the old tree, that old tree becomes a nurse log and that's the cycle of the church. The church is a series of deaths and resurrections, and so I think we're on the cusp of resurrection. Actually, renewal, psalm 85, revive us again, lord.
Speaker 2:Resurrection, actually renewal. Psalm 85, revive us again, lord. I think that that is happening in spite of of metaphor that David Kinnaman Barna have kind of been using for some time. What is the exile's response after we get through the lament? It's always, it's always hopeful, and your word revive us again, and I guess what I would. Who are the prophetic voices in our church that will speak that word? Jeff, I honestly think you're one of them. Your loved and sent kind of mission is so powerful because it's centered in our identity and then it's giving us meaning and purpose, fulfillment, which is carrying on the mission.
Speaker 2:I don't know, this isn't. I didn't send you this question, jeff, this is just you and I talking here. No-transcript miss for us. That it was one thing kind of on the side, but it was not the grounding narrative of scripture. I just don't remember having like a missions class per se. I mean, I studied Acts, I had some missions class, but it wasn't like intimately married up to Lutheran 101, lutheran mind etc.
Speaker 2:And I'm wondering like that would be so bananas cool if we developed ways for us to start the grounding conversation with the sending nature of God going back, sending of Abraham, the sending of Israel out to the nations, obviously, the sending of the sun out into the world. So yeah, did I, did I and this is no disparagement to the curriculum map or anything at the seminary. I just think the world kind of changed so much and now we kind of are looking back and a whole bunch of guys Shout out to Will, and Will Soans, steve Soans in their book God's Sending Heart, and there was a new book that just came out, I think, called God's Sending Heart. Yeah, yeah, so yeah, any comments there about kind of how we were formed?
Speaker 3:discipled in those early years, jeff. Hey, maybe we were in the gym shooting hoops when that class happened, I don't know. Yeah, there'll be. There were some missions at seminary, I think, where where I picked up the mission of God more than anything. Some of it is is familial the mission of God more than anything. Some of it is is familial my family heritage but a big part of it is the people of God and, uh, learned by the Holy spirit and the school of experience.
Speaker 3:And so my best education in the mission of God came from the people of God, not a classroom and so, um, you know, in terms of formation. That's why field work and vicarage is so important, that it's not just a classroom education but it's formation by experience. And when you get out and you have a church that is living that mission and you experience that with them, it's, it's powerful. But but you're right, we don't have the luxury of of saying you know what is, what is the mission, or we have to learn it. We just have to start doing it, and and it's best learned by doing so. Yeah, I don't know. We could talk about seminary education and what could be At some point. We'd be there for 20 years if we had to fit everything in Facts.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, there's no end to what you need to know and learn and evolve. So, yeah, the school of experience is definitely the best spot to learn. And I mean, I go back to my early years. If I hadn't had a group of young Jesus followers who saw a major need in our community, meaning a working, poor and homeless population right around our church who were not a part of our church, represented in any way, I don't know, Jeff, that I would have said, oh, we've got to do the table thing here, we've got to do this meal and worship on Thursday night. It really was young followers of Jesus saying there's something wrong, there's darkness in the world, are we going to do something about it? And I hope, I hope the church can have that sort of entrepreneurial spirit. So let's get into tactics. A shout out to Scott Seidler. Seidler loves to talk about tactics for the LCMS. So what are the tactical steps you think the LCMS needs to take to work toward a preferred and I'll use your two H words an honest and hope-filled future? Preferred future.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you mentioned at the outset, tim, my position. I joke that I've been trying to get out of St Louis for 20 years, but I think one of the reasons I'm here, part of my ministry is certainly my congregation but our placement at the crossroads. So I just interact a lot with anybody, from DPs passing through to all of our institutions here in St Louis, from CPH to the seminary. We have field workers, the IC and just lots of connections to network. So I do a lot of listening and I try to be helpful and hopeful. On the broader sense of the term, one thing that I ask around when I see people is what is it that you care about? And certainly, given because there's somebody listening, I just want to take this off the table. We care about our confession of faith, right, absolutely, we've taken vows to that. But in terms of the expression of that confession, what do we all care about from various corners of our church body, regardless of style or persuasion or geographical location. And here are three things that I see, tim, everybody cares about new generations, new workers, new ministries. Everybody cares about that, regardless, urban, rural, suburban, left or right, whatever you want to say. So, new generations everybody cares about their kids and grandkids. Everybody is asking who's next. They're looking over their shoulder and they're saying who's going to follow me? Pastors are saying who's going to take over when I retire? Older season members who's going to be here? Where are kids and grandkids? Everybody cares about the next generation. Everybody cares about new workers. Pastors most certainly. We've talked a lot about that but all kinds of workers, from who's going to be the elder, the next council member, who's going to be our director of worship, who's going to. They care about more workers. My sister is a member of a rural congregation. It's a rather large rural congregation. They were vacant for over three years and had seven declined calls.
Speaker 3:A lot of churches are getting frustrated, even angry Is that too strong of a word? Maybe angry or frustrated, and then in some cases, just disheartened because they can't get a pastor. And at some point the people of God are going to just say we need this, we've got to find a way to have more pastors. And so everybody cares about new workers. So new generations, new workers and new ministries. Everybody I talk to wants to see more churches starting instead of closing, more Concordias starting. I mean instead of closing. Could we start new Concordias. That's a radical statement, but let's actually let's go the other way.
Speaker 3:Rather than losing Concordias, what would it take to expand our footprint in the university world? And people care about that. People care about new ministries, not just maintaining, or certainly not retreating or declining, but they want to see new ministry. Can we grow our ministries? Can we plant new churches? Can our churches start new ministries that engage the community? I can tell you nobody that I've talked to, from a variety of backgrounds or persuasions in our church body everybody cares about those three things new generations, new workers, new ministries. I think those are commonalities that we can rally around. And then, what will we sacrifice in those areas to do something significant? What will we give up? How can we be frontier people in each of those areas to do something significant? What will we lose? What are we willing to lose for the sake of new workers or new generations, or new ministries? We're at a time where we've got to put all the chips on the table and be willing to sacrifice. Jeff.
Speaker 2:Jeff, wow, I love it. Generations, new generations and I'm a new guy, but it's kind of funny. I like new things, not just new phones and stuff, but I like new ministries. I got a fever and it's for new things.
Speaker 2:But I'm kind of. But I'm kind of unusual, you know. I mean in terms of the, the early adopters and the innovators, like I'm way more comfortable and this goes to my like Harrison, not president Matt Harrison, but the Harrison behavioral score right Is I'm I got a high tolerance for risk conflict score right, I got a high tolerance for risk conflict, managing stress. God just made me a little bit. Not everybody should be like me or the world would be absolutely bonkers. There would be nothing that would be sustained. It'd be all yes, yes, yes, new, new, new, right. So I'm weird in that regard.
Speaker 2:But what you say in your conversations and frankly I've had the same experience that even you're talking new things because we're reading the same old book, the Bible for the next generations faithful, a third and fourth generation of those who love me and are called, and ways to bring the gospel through new workers and then starting new ministry. To hear you say there's continuity there. That's very hopeful to me, am I? I mean, it's not. You're not just talking to the crazy guys like me that are all into new, new expressions, right? I mean you're talking to folks that from the Midwest, from the heartland, from the rural congregations like it, and especially well, let me ask you this, especially as it relates to the laymen and women in our church I think there's a higher tolerance for the new among that group than there may be among those of us that have been longtime pastors, multi-generation pastors, etc. Any observations there? Jeff?
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, I think you're right. I think the people of God and the people of God keep us honest, so we're accountable to them. I'm accountable to my elders, to my church council, so they keep us honest. And, yeah, my people have a desire to keep going for righteous risk and that is so good. Tim, I'd say, here in St Louis our circuits are pretty strong. We have a couple of different footprints of our church, so we cross two circuit boundaries and we have those two circuits, I believe, are super strong and there's a good camaraderie, and a lot of times we don't hear that, but it really is. In addition to that, we've started to link arms around what we call an alliance that is willing to kind of be a super circuit across geography that is doing things together. So I think the future of the church is and will be multi-congregational, which is actually, you know, kind of how our synod started, kind of how our synod started. We don't always express it that way, but so there's 15 churches from inner city St Louis all the way out to sort of close to rural suburbia and everywhere in between, from small churches to large churches, african American to Anglo white, and we're meeting regularly and we're doing stuff together. I think that that is where I see that happening in parts of our synod. That's where something's happening, where you set aside the competition and the comparison and you're not threatened by each other and you say we are going to sacrifice together for something. So, for example, we've preached together, we've done a Pentecost series together, we raised $300,000 for Afghan refugees when there was a resettlement in St Louis. We did that together, one of the most significant things we've done together.
Speaker 3:This gets to the new, new generations. We've started kind of a young leader school together called the Harbor, and this is our second year and it's something each of us could do on our own. Essentially it's like an intern model, but we do it together. So each year we've had 12 young leaders. Now we're up to 24 over the course of two years. This year there's 12 young leaders from 10 different congregations and we even will kind of trade them.
Speaker 3:If a young leader really needs an experience that another church has, we'll send them over there. They meet together monthly as a cohort. They rotate churches each month They'll meet in a different church and we are raising up a new generation. Some of them may be church workers. That's fine, but it's not exclusive to church workers. They will be lay leaders. But it's just, we just have to do it Now. There was a risk in starting that it took sacrifice, it took work, it took a humility to say, hey, we're not here to steal your young leaders, we're not competing or comparing. We are all on the same team. And so the Harbor, if you want to check it out, theharborstlcom, theharborstlcom Yep, I think that's it. But that's just an example of putting some you mentioned tactics of putting some tangible skin on the bone in terms of, like new generations and new workers.
Speaker 2:Ah, man, I love that so much. I mean, could you send me your planning doc on that group? I'd love to see, because we're right at the precipice right now in Phoenix of doing a lot of things better together. It's been time, and I've been here this is my 12th year of ministry in the Valley and so, yeah, maybe I could one day be like Jeff Claytor. That's so cool, jeff. No, I'm proud of you, dude, I'm serious about that. That's so cool, jeff. No, I'm proud of you, dude, I'm serious about that.
Speaker 3:That's so good In each location, tim, there is. That's why I'm so hopeful. This old body called the LCMS still has life in it. It does, contrary to popular belief. What did Mark Twain say? You know, rumors of my death have been greatly exaggerated. That is true. There is life and it's in Phoenix and you're part of it there. There's a great connectivity between the congregations in Phoenix. I mentioned the Bay Area. You go all over. There are pockets where there are great Holy Spirit work happening and we need to continue to share and where the places that are struggling could we share resources?
Speaker 3:I've always thought, okay, if we develop some strength in St Louis and we develop, we build ourselves up together as a coalition in this locale. I mean, this is New Testament-like, where you care about the other cities. Antioch cared about Jerusalem and took a collection, so could we? You know, this is my dream Someday in St Louis, could we send 50 people and $2 million to Manhattan to plant a Lutheran church in Manhattan and we raise that takes a generation to raise people that are willing to just go and find jobs and be missionaries and give them the resources and partner with the churches that are already. You know the district of the churches that are already there and where one city sacrifices for another. That is my goal eventually of our churches here in St Louis. Could we get to that level of a very significant and sacrificial sending?
Speaker 2:All about it, jeff, sign me up. You've written a paper to hopefully spark conversation and collaboration.
Speaker 3:Can you tell us about it and how can people get a hold of it? Yeah, so, papers, what do papers do? Everybody writes a paper. So again back to my position in St Louis, just being kind of at the crossroads, I just see enough people and, um, at some point people were asking you know what? What do you sense and see? And so I said I've been, I've been repeating this enough, I'm going to put it down. And so, uh, I do have a document, uh, that you can find at lovedcentorg, so just the two words lovedcentorg, and uh, that's just kind of a landing page to hold that content. Um, so, if you want to see a little bit more of what I sense and see, I talk a little bit about the new generations, new workers, new ministries. Uh, again, I'm just, I'm just'm just a pastor, but I'm at a crossroads of a lot of different people. This is what I sense and see. Take a look at it lovescentorg. Furthermore, you know we were talking about prayer before. What is a paper?
Speaker 3:My hope is that, by sharing this, it's a catalyst to prayer and further conversation. So, if somebody is listening or watching right now on that website, at the bottom you can sign up for an, for an email. Uh, don't do that unless three things unless you're willing to pray, unless you want to connect and maybe even gather together, and unless you want to do something sacrificial, to gather around some significant ministry effort together. If you're interested in that serious prayer for the LCMS, joining together, gathering at some point and then giving something up for whatever we might determine together as something significant. So I'm just going to throw this out Could a coalition of churches say we're going to plant 1000 churches in the next 10 years?
Speaker 3:Okay, that might be wild, but if somebody's interested in a joint, multi congregational sacrificial effort, then sign up for that email. If you don't want to do that, don't sign up for it. I'm not going to send you junk email. I only if you're interested, we'll further the conversation. If you're not interested, that's totally fine. But if you're interested prayer, gathering, connecting and a sacrificial nature sign up at lovescentorg. Yep. Lovescentorg.
Speaker 2:Have I signed up, Jeff? I hope I've signed up?
Speaker 3:I don't know. I signed up. I need to sign up but I'm serious.
Speaker 2:I'm serious about those three questions. I want to be a part of the thing, jeff. Anyway, so much fun. Every time I get to hang out with you I feel younger, jeff. We're not as young as we once were because in our eyes we're still seminarians hooping it up and all that. So we got to drop 75th anniversary of Peterson Fieldhouse coming up in February. I will be in St Louis for that amazing celebration. We'll lace them up and play in the alumni game. That is, if anybody's interested in being a part of that. That is the 20th. There's a dinner on February 20th and then basketball takes place on February 21st. That evening there's probably how many alumni games Like three or four alumni games. There's so many alumni, who knows how many we need to have just to make sure everybody plays. We're definitely in the middle-aged to old guy group, so that's super fun. But yeah, any shout out to the 75th year of the Peterson.
Speaker 3:Fieldhouse. Oh, that would be great. That'll be great. I'll be there. You'll be there, Tim. Certainly, basketball or sports in general at seminary have been a great outlet for any seminarian over the years, for the generations of the seminary, a good outlet and also a place to build bonds. And so shout out to Peter Nasker, professor Peter Nasker at St Louis, who started that, and it's built really a great way for alumni to come back, and each year it's just a lot of fun. So let's celebrate the 75th anniversary of the Fieldhouse and get together.
Speaker 2:Is it being? Has some of the land been sold there at the seminary? Some changes going on to the campus. Do you know anything about that, jeff?
Speaker 3:If I say too much I'll be making it up and I'll be wrong. But there is an agreement, I believe, with Washington University on a long-term land lease that will involve some construction and reconfiguration of the campus. So, yes, I believe that's true.
Speaker 2:That's about all I know too. That's about all I know too. Man, this has been great, jeff. So for you, if you want to follow up, if you're serious about his Loved and Sent Challenge, go to lovedsentorg. If you want to know about young adult leaders and how he's doing it there in St Louis, harborslcom, this is so. St louis harbor, stlcom. This is uh, so much fun if people want to connect with you?
Speaker 3:are you still writing blogs, jeff? You got your. Yeah, when I, when I can. I'm a pastor, so I got stuff to do, but when I have something I throw it up there. Sixth gencom. Sixth gencom when I can is that with s is that s-i-x-t-h-g-e-n.
Speaker 2:That's correct. Like sixth gen pastor in the LCMS.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm a sixth generation LCMS pastor. That's great.
Speaker 2:You don't have Fotenauer. By the way, he's like 20th gen. I don't know I'm making that up. I think he's like 12 or something like that. He goes way back.
Speaker 2:It's a good day. We pray this conversation lit you up, that maybe you smiled, you laughed and you want to go on mission to make Jesus known with great, great joy. That's our goal Not compromising our confession at all, but our confession of Christ crucified and risen, the distribution of word and sacrament through the office of holy ministry to equip the saints for love and good deeds, man, this is, it's the best thing, it's the best thing ever, and we believe there are great days ahead for confessional Lutheranism in the United States of America and we're simply praying that the LCMS, by the Spirit's power, says yes, sign me, sign me up. It's a good day. Go make it a great day. Grateful for you, jeff. Thank you. Thank you, tim.
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