Lead Time
Lead Time
Did Jesus Really Say That!? | Rev. Dr. Chris Kennedy
Rev. Dr. Chris Kennedy joins us for an impactful discussion on the challenges and joys of pastoral ministry, exploring difficult sayings of Jesus and their relevance in today's church. We reflect on leadership, personal growth, and the importance of clear communication in ministering to others.
• Reflecting on the joys of pastoral work, especially with youth
• Navigating the complex challenges of human relationships in ministry
• Understanding difficult teachings of Jesus in their proper context
• Discussing the need for proactive change management in the church
• Emphasizing growth and innovation as essential for ministry success
• Hope for increased diversity and outreach to younger generations
If you want to connect with Chris, visit his website at PastorChrisKennedy.com for more resources and updates on his work.
Breaking down faith, culture & big questions - a mix of humor with real spiritual growth.
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This is Lead Time.
Speaker 2:Welcome to Lead Time Tim Allman here. Jack Calvert is actually under the weather, but do not fret. We have an awesome conversation set up today with Reverend Dr Chris Kennedy. Chris and I classmates for gosh 20-some years ago and he's been at the same congregation, shepherd of the Hills, for what? 17 or so years, 18 years now, something like that, chris. Is that how long it's been?
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's right. We finished seminary the same year, 2008.
Speaker 2:That's right. So this is going to be great. Chris is also. He has a writing ministry through Concordia Publishing House. His second most recent book is what Jesus Said. He actually reached out to me. We were doing a sermon series entitled Things I Wish Jesus Didn't Say, and Chris reconnected and so kind and said hey, I wrote a book with CPH in 23 called Jesus Said what, say what, and so we're going to be talking about that. He also wrote a book called and it's the most recent publication Unfailing God's Assurance in Times of Change. So how you doing, chris? Thanks for hanging out with me today.
Speaker 3:I'm doing great Tim.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for inviting me onto the show. It's going to be fun. So let's just talk generally about pastoral ministry greatest joys, greatest challenges and even tell just a little bit of your kind of pastoral leadership journey story there, chris.
Speaker 3:Sure, that's a great question. Lots of joys in ministry. A lot of it revolves around people and relationships. We're blessed to have a school in childcare where I serve and just love being able to spend time with the kids, get some hugs, some high fives, getting to know some of the teenagers better and growing those relationships with the youth. Lots of great friendships in the congregation with members, some connections in the community. So, yeah, a lot of it revolves around people. When it comes to the joys, that's why we did this right.
Speaker 2:That's why we went into this, because we love people and we're in love with Jesus and connecting people to Jesus, I think, at the very core of pastoral ministry, that's it. I love that you start with the youngest of these. There is nothing like doing preschool chapel for me. These little guys come in and you know there's 50 to 100 of them and they're just wide-eyed and there's no like pretension.
Speaker 2:I have a three-year-old niece. Her name is Harper, and we had a Christmas kind of family gathering and I got Harper up on the table and we were just kind of connecting she's kind of playing with my face and things like that. And I asked her you know Jesus? She goes mm-hmm. And I said, well, what do you know about Jesus? She goes lots of stuff. And then I asked a question Jesus died on nine. She goes to cross and Jesus rose from the dead. She says you know, and where does Jesus lives In my heart? How did you get to know Jesus? I was baptized. I mean, there's this like these simple proclamations of faith. It's the best. That's like Jesus says have faith like a little child. Like these simple declarations of who God is and the person and work of Jesus. It's just next level. Anything more to add to like kid ministry, chris.
Speaker 3:Oh, it's the best. Well, first of all, it sounds like you have a future church worker on your hands there, yeah, right, yeah, see how God grows. That that's wonderful. Yeah, just a lot of joy in that, and I'm coming off a spiritual high. This morning we dedicated a new playground on our campus and we had a big ribbon cutting grand opening and we let each child go down the slide. So we went through every class and so I'm coming off of that right now.
Speaker 2:Did you go down the slide, Chris.
Speaker 1:Did you go, did you?
Speaker 2:take a slide.
Speaker 3:Ryan, I was the last one. We had a little double slide and I went with my daughter together.
Speaker 2:There you go, oh, that's so good, yeah, and Chris does have four kids 12, 10, 7, and 5, I think is what you said, something like that. So all different seasons and what a privilege. Challenges, though. Let's talk about that, because ministry would be great if it weren't for the people. People can be a challenge. You're at a place Let me set it up like this You're at a place. I've been here 12 years now at Christ Greenfield bar. You know the divorces, the friends who were in leadership positions and for one reason or another we couldn't figure out. You know conflict, and so they had to leave or they moved for a job change or something like that. There's just a lot of people were all wounded healers, and the longer you're in pastoral ministry it's out of those wounds. And it's cool too, over time, to see some people actually who you were at odds with, or I've got a number of these stories.
Speaker 2:Pastor, I didn't like the way you handled COVID, I thought you should have been more aggressive or more, you know, on the other end, Uh, but then they, they caught. This has happened more recently. This is a joy. And they came back and said you know what? I was just dealing with? A lot of stuff, Hello, like all of us were, and I found you as a kind of the one of the primary. You know, soft targets for my pain.
Speaker 2:And I'm sorry about that and we've been able to reconcile, so that's really really cool, but that doesn't always take place. What are some of your challenges, though, with folks?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I tell you, anytime somebody leaves the church, that's always really painful. I'd like to say I have a 100% retention rate, but that wouldn't be true. You know, people have bad experiences with other people, whatever it may be, and that's always painful for me as a pastor, you know. Another challenge is, I guess, the people who aren't here. How do we reach new people? And that is always such a challenge. We always want to see things grow and be a part of growth, but sometimes things don't happen according to our plans or the Holy Spirit takes things in a different direction. So I would say the challenge is just trying to figure out how do you crack that nut? How do you get more growth in the church, the school, the childcare? How do you reach the community more effectively, meet the needs around us? So I would say for me that that's a challenge too is how do you reach those people? Yeah, well, that's it.
Speaker 2:We are called to share the gospel, make disciples who are apprenticed by Jesus, who then go on to apprentice other people. I was reading the parable of the talents, matthew 25 recently. Comes right on the heels of this will segue into. Jesus said what Comes right on the heels of the 10 virgins. You know oil lamps ready for the bridegroom's return. And then you got Jesus telling another long story. I love how Jesus tells story.
Speaker 2:This is Holy Week for Jesus when he's telling a lot of these kind of last words of formation for his disciples and the story of the talents. You've heard it from a number of different angles but I looked at it recently with the lens of sins of commission versus the sins of omission and kind of parodying it with risk. You know investment and risk. I want to be a part of a congregation, whether it's one, two, five, 10 talents. That's investing those talents, namely the people, releasing the people, sending the people to be equipped to share their faith and in turn then some may come to worship, be a part of our church. But we just want to be baptized and to know who, like. The last thing I want is for the master to come back and say you buried your talent Like. Very rarely do we think of wickedness with the sin of omission. Jesus is closing out some of his hardest words with the sin of omission.
Speaker 2:You knew who I was. Why didn't you invest it? I wanted a return. I wanted a KROI right, a kingdom return on investment with what I entrusted to you. That, for me as a pastoral leader, I take that very, very serious. I know that's a word of law, chris, but I take that word of law very seriously from Jesus. What did you do with the time, talent and resources that I entrusted to you? Do you reflect on that at all, chris? How does that kind of sit with you?
Speaker 3:Wow, Probably don't reflect on it as much as I should, because that's a very serious matter and we are accountable. God has entrusted us with the treasure of the gospel and we don't want to bury it. We want to extend it to people in as many ways as possible to do the good work that God's given us to do. So that's something to really think hard about and to take very seriously.
Speaker 2:Yeah because risk investment includes risk. Right, ministry includes risk, and it appears as if the master is saying you should risk like it's good. I know it may not go perfect, but I want to be leaning forward as, as a, as a leader, and then as a ministry. I want to try anything. This is a.
Speaker 2:I can't even, uh, craig Rochelle, one of Craig Rochelle's not that I, you know endorse everything Craig Rochelle says, but, uh, what life church says? Anything short of sin. To reach people with the gospel? Anything short of sin. And is that going to get right up to the edge? Yeah, maybe, whatever you kind of think the edge is, I want to reach people with the gospel. I want, uh, I want our congregation to be known in the community as a place where people are known, seen, loved and Jesus is there. So, yeah, anyway, what compelled you? You wrote this one and you kind of told me, before we hit play, that a number of these books kind of came out of sermon series, so much like ours. But did Jesus really say that? Jesus said what is your topic? So what compelled you to write? Jesus said what, chris?
Speaker 3:You know, we've been going through the Bible.
Speaker 3:I've got this big, long six-year plan to go through every part of the Bible and so we're going through each of the Gospels and all the different parts of the Old Testament New Testament.
Speaker 3:We were on Mark's Gospel not too long ago and during the Epiphany season we talked about the miracles in Mark's gospel and then during the season of Lent, it was the words of Jesus and decided to look at what are some of the harder things that he said in Mark's gospel and with all the books that I've been privileged to share with a wider audience, it's sort of been if the topic connected with the local congregation here, perhaps it would connect with a wider audience. It's sort of been if the topic connected with the local congregation here, perhaps it would connect with a wider audience. So I would pitch the idea to Concordia Publishing House and if they felt that it would meet people's needs, then I'd put it together in book form and send it off to them. But all this started out as a sermon series at a local church that I got some good feedback on and thought, no, maybe this would help other people.
Speaker 2:Well, I love. I'm just going to give you some of your categories to even, because if I, if I, wrote something, I'd need someone to help jog my memory. You've written a lot of things since here, but you talk challenging words about family matters, hate my family, not peace, but a sword Right. And then you get into challenging words about money. Jesus talks about money and an awful lot challenging words about terrifying consequences that could come, and then some other, some other kind of difficult ones. Be perfect, as your heavenly father is perfect. Did Jesus call a woman a dog? I think that's. That's an interesting and kind of funny, funny one. But anyway, what are some of the most surprising things? Jesus said that you're like. I don't know that we preach on that as much as we should. That would be very, very helpful for today. So I'll let you kind of bring to light a couple, two or three of your favorite statements from Jesus.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know a little more about the way the book was put together. More about the way the book was put together. After deciding to go with this theme, concordia Publishing House asked me to do a broader search not just Mark's gospel, but all four gospels and so I did a survey of the congregation and Facebook friends and asked them what they thought were the most challenging statements, and the one that was number one was this whole thing about Jesus saying you have to hate your family. Oh sure, and you know, I think that that really surprises people that something like that would come out of Jesus' lips. I mean, more than 50% of the people in my survey said that was the thing that really struck them. Jesus said to hate somebody and you look a little deeper at this and hate he means love less, and that actually doesn't mean that we should lower our love for other people. It means we should raise our level of love for God, and so there's a whole lot there that we can unpack when it comes to that statement.
Speaker 3:A related one is Jesus saying I didn't come to bring peace but a sword. I mean, we're recording this in the Advent season and we think of Jesus as the Prince of Peace. Isn't that what Jesus came to do Bring peace. And it wasn't the reason for Jesus coming to bring division. But it's the result of his coming that you know there is a line that's drawn there and Jesus wants everyone to be on the side of that line that results in eternal life through faith in him. So I think that those kind of things surprise. That's not what I thought Jesus was. I thought he was the peace guy, I thought he was the love guy, and we really have to dig a little bit deeper to understand what he's saying there. Well, say something about what we learned?
Speaker 2:Shout out to seminary Lutheran education. What we learned? We learned a number of different things at seminary in the practical department. We talk about that a lot which is to love. But God also is a God of wrath, right, but that's not his primary nature, that's his secondary nature. Because of our sin and praise be to God all of his wrath was placed upon his son so that we may be called the righteous sons and daughters of King Jesus. And then obviously our law gospel handles in the way that we preach. I mean a lot of these harder words are just Jesus bringing a law, word which should lead every hearer to fall to their knees with a repentant posture, begging for the mercy and grace of God. Anything else to say about kind of our Lutheran systematic handles. That kind of frame up the way you think of these hard words from Jesus Chris.
Speaker 3:Yeah, there's really a lot there. And one thing I really appreciate about your podcast, tim, is how you incorporate the theology into the conversations. It's just, it's so rich. And in this case too, I mean, the gospel must predominate. That's a big thing that we're taught in our preaching and in our study of the scripture. We've always got to keep that in mind.
Speaker 3:In Jesus' words, this is your Savior, who loves you, who is talking to you, he wants the best for you. He's not trying to tear you down, he's trying to build you up through the gospel, through this new identity in Christ. This is the Word of God that we are encountering, and the Word is living and active and the Holy Spirit is at work. And this is the baptized life of a Christian to hear these words of Jesus and to seek to live them out. And you know that third use of the law that we talk about, that sanctification, you know, after we're driven to our knees in repentance and we find that gift of grace in Jesus, well then, what do we do? We go out and we live with faith toward God and love toward other people and live out our faith.
Speaker 2:Yeah, amen, how for you, let's go. Before we come back to the book, let's talk about your kind of way of being, your way of of leading what? Because you talk a lot about the words of Jesus, but what are the ways of Jesus that you've striven to incorporate over the years? By the Holy Spirit's power you talk third function of the law. What is the sanctified life look like for you as a husband, father and a pastor? So I'm asking more your spiritual rhythms, your disciplines, the way of Jesus alive in your life and ministry, chris Sure.
Speaker 3:Well, I think my first word for that would be imperfect.
Speaker 3:I don't always live those things out the way that I would like to, but I'm on a journey just like everyone else. Being in the Word, I mean, that's where we get that strength and guidance and where that Spirit is present to direct our lives and also to comfort us and forgive us when we fall short. So, being in the Word, being in prayer you know Jesus modeled that being close to the Father, stepping away from all the busyness, as hard as it is. I mean, if Jesus could afford to take time to pray, I guess you and I and everybody else could afford that as well, because he had a lot more on his plate than any of us. And just that compassion for people. I think that needs to be an important part of leadership too, that we have a sensitivity toward other people and what they're going through, and I would say that's the way of Jesus that can be incorporated into our own rhythms and leadership, just seeing life through that lens of compassion.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, god has given you a very, very compassionate heart, not just in what you say but how you say, and I've known it, you know, for 20 some years now, chris, and that's not, that's not changed. I know that's a fuel for your life and ministry. You are a you're a man after God's own heart there, chris, and it's very, very easy to see. How do you? Another kind of rhythm we talk a lot about here in our context is Sabbath and encouraging rest and kind of the other kind of partner with Sabbath is solitude.
Speaker 2:How do you get away to find rest and to be silent before the Lord so you can hear his voice connected to his word? Anything more on Sabbath there, Chris, for you, Because that's hard for pastors. I think we're so on. You feel like you're constantly on. I think it takes some intention to shut it off. How are you kind of shutting it off so you can hear from the Lord?
Speaker 3:That's a great question. Again, that's something that is imperfect in my life. I would love to be better at that, especially with being very involved with my children and my family. Taking a day off is really important for me. Friday's my day off and I really like to exercise or do a home project or just be out in nature. That really helps me, and in terms of listening to God too. I think I've learned this over time. Sermon writing. You know I like to write, obviously because I write books, but sometimes God isn't speaking to me with my hands on the keyboard. Sometimes I just have to get outside, walk around, think, ponder and then I come back and with some inspiration. But you can't force god to speak to you. You kind of just have to open up and he speaks when and how he pleases isn't that something there's?
Speaker 2:there's a mystery to that, actually that there's a lot of social scientists and neurologists that are trying to figure out how the brain works. And you hear the trope yeah, this came to me in the shower, but that's just one, I think, example of I'm disconnected, I don't have access to anything else, and so my brain starts to elevate it, or I'm kind of aiming up and it's really subconscious. It's not even like I've just I've consciously placed myself in an area where distractions are going to be less. But then God can come. The busy clouded, the Martha syndrome. You know, you could use the Mary Martha kind of I'm just busy, I'm working, I'm working, I'm working. You can't hear, you can't hear from God, connected to his, his word, and, and then that's where revelation, new ideas, creative, you know expressions for a message or for your team, or, to bring other words, like I have to have that every single day.
Speaker 2:I'm kind of neurotic. Uh, my wife would tell you, because I do the same thing for the first hour every single day. It's water, it's getting a handful of supplements, it's go to the bathroom and then I move and I listen, and then I get on a bike and then I read the word and spend time Half of the time on the bike. You know, about 20 minutes. Half is in the word and then half is reading, like this morning, reviewing Jesus said what from Chris, you know. So that's like the first hour of every single day. And there's an element of I gotta get away to be recharged so then I can pour out, you know, and I want to do ministry out of the overflow rather than with an empty, empty tank.
Speaker 2:Uh, you've taken care of you. You try. We're both roughly the same age, I think 43 or so. We're trying. There was that misnomer, right? I mean, you're kind of over the hill Now you're in the midlife crisis. A lot of leaders actually, when they hit this season of life, make really bad decisions. Let's not be, let's not be a stat, uh, chris, but um, I think holistic, physical care of the temple of the Holy spirit is very, very important for for leaders. Uh, do you agree? And what are some? You said you walk and run, or is there a daily thing that you're doing to try to take care of the temple? That's?
Speaker 3:great. Um, I try to get to the gym a couple mornings a week and do some exercise there, and then I love to run. I just love to be outside and feed on the pavement. So I would love to do those things more often. Sometimes there's just a lot on the calendar and you can't squeeze it in on a particular day. But you know, if you get up early before everybody else, usually you can make it happen if you just get out of bed.
Speaker 2:Amen, amen, um, so encourage, encourage you to be well, heart, body, mind, spirit. Uh, self-care is not selfish. We take care of ourselves so that we can pour into into others. Let's let's get back to Jesus. Uh, a very good place to get back to, as you've done a survey, especially in light of writing this book. You looked at all the things Jesus said with great depth and a lot of the words are harder. What are your favorite stories of comfort from Jesus? The greatest stories to give you hope and assurance could be a parable, or it could be a verse that you've memorized from Jesus. Let's talk about the gospel Chris.
Speaker 3:Sure, some words of Jesus. I've always held on to. My favorite Bible passage is John 16, 33. Jesus said in this world you will have tribulation or trouble, but take heart, I have overcome the world. And that's always given me a lot of hope, because it says to me don't be surprised when troubles come your way that's actually to be expected but don't despair, because Jesus is the overcomer and he has overcome for you and for me and for all people. If we will just hold on onto him and lean into him in those times. So I always know where I can turn, I've got a savior who's ready with open arms.
Speaker 2:When I love how Jesus doesn't pull any like. This is just the way life is. It's going to get hard, you're going to have trouble. Do not despair, I'm with you, I've overcome it and he's about ready. When Jesus says those words, he's about ready to overcome our greatest enemy, which is sin, which leads to death, through his bodily resurrection. Praise God, what else, what other words from Jesus and this?
Speaker 3:one wasn't in the book, but this is just one that struck me. It's one of the later chapters of Mark's gospel. I don't have the exact reference, but Jesus was talking to the disciples and saying there will be times when you are persecuted, when you have to come before the authorities. In those moments, don't worry about what you will say, because the Holy Spirit will give you the words. And that's been helpful to me because you know, let's say, I go into a hospital to visit someone, what do I say? Or I'm in a counseling session. I mean, what wisdom do I have?
Speaker 3:In that moment? I don't really know, until we're talking, what needs to be said. Or I go into a difficult meeting and hope I don't say the wrong thing. You know, there can be those kind of fears that you just shut down, and it's been very helpful for me to know that in those moments where there's no script, you don't need the script. When you have the spirit, I mean, go in prepared, go in with the right mindset, do your research, your homework, but in the moment you might just have to rely on the Spirit to put all that together into the right words.
Speaker 2:That sounds very biblical, very Lutheran. It's not about us, it's about the Holy Spirit. Passive faith, that's so good. So you kind of I love how you change. Let's get into your newest book here. Change will inevitably bring about conflict. Not everybody will like what you do. You're upsetting the equilibrium. Let's just maintain the status quo. Don't change anything. Pastor, you're going to need to rely on the Holy Spirit as you're walking through change management. So tell a little bit of the story of unfailing God's assurance in times of change. Your most recent book there, chris.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so this was a sermon series on the life of Samuel the prophet, and he's actually one of the great figures in the Bible and a lot of people don't know his story. They might know, you know, when he was a child and God was calling in the night, but I mean he's up there with Moses in terms of the way he's regarded in the Old Testament, and Samuel was a transitional figure in many ways between the period of the judges and the period of the kings, and he was the guy that had to help Israel make that move from one model to a completely different model. You know, and sometimes when it comes to seasons of change, the person is the change. I mean Samuel was the one that all that was revolving around.
Speaker 3:Sometimes in our own lives, the change that people are reacting to is it's us. You know, if you're a new leader or a new family member or whatever it is, you are the change and you bring your own set of gifts and opinions and ways of doing things, and no era or time is the same as the one that came before it. It's just that's how it works in life, and so helping people to work through change is something that's acquired over time it's more an art than a science, but it is a part of life Well yes, let's go deeper.
Speaker 2:I want to get to know you and your leadership style a little bit better. If people were to ask and I didn't put this on the questions, chris, so I hope you can go here with me If people were to ask, what are some of Chris's potential blind spots? You know that under stress he's going to respond in this way and this may not be the most helpful way. So to ping, I'm not going to ask anybody to do something I wouldn't do Under stress.
Speaker 2:I could become defensive, overly aggressive, overly frank with my speech, overly frank with my speech. I could have a propensity to lead from a place of pride and I have some mitigating things. One of the main reasons I raise up leaders, well, one, it's Jesus called us to do that make and multiply disciples, and if Paul needed Silas and Barnabas, by goodness I need Michael and Ryan and a whole bunch of other people around me. Right, but it's to counter. It's to counter pride and growing kind of who to that kind of intuitively in some regards for me, I have to counter that, that idol of of pride with having a really, really healthy team of of you could say kind adjutants, uh, to to care for me, because too much of me would be a really really bad, really really bad thing.
Speaker 2:Uh, so yeah, those are some of my kind of shadow sides. How do you speak about some of your shadow side? So, on a on a passive to aggressive continuum this is kind of how you could summarize me. I could be imbalanced with aggressive behavioral traits. Uh, what would people say about you, chris?
Speaker 3:That's a great question. I guess I'll have to ask some people because they're my blind spots. Um, that's a good point. I would think that I tend to get quiet when under stress, and that could be interpreted as passivity, perhaps.
Speaker 3:So I know there are some leaders that are very take charge in their personality. I have a quieter personality. I think I'm very comfortable leading, especially if I'm the person in charge. I do my duty and I do it. I take it very seriously if I'm in charge of something. But there may be times when I get quiet and maybe it's out of fear, thinking I don't want to say or do the wrong thing. So I keep going back to that passage about the Holy Spirit will tell you what to say in that moment and I've got to keep leaning on that and trusting in God and trusting that he has equipped me for the challenges that come up and even in the moment to go ahead and step up and trust that God's going to guide those efforts.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I love that. We're kind of right in the middle of our leadership journey. We're not. We're no longer young, but we're not old. You know, it's kind of an interesting transitional period, I think, right now. So fast forward 20 years from now, as people look at your life and ministry, what are the top three leadership qualities of Jesus? You're like I pray. That's I pray. It's not about me, it's not about you. You know, I know you're humble as the day is long, but what would you pray? They say about you, chris.
Speaker 3:Hmm, I think I would hope that they would evaluate the fruits of ministry in terms of the people. I mean, who have I discipled? My own children, well, what are they doing? Because those are my top disciples as my own children? How are they living out their faith? How about the people that I've baptized or confirmed or invested in here? What are they doing to make a difference for the Lord? So I would hope to have a legacy of leading people to walk with Jesus, so that they can lead other people to walk with Jesus.
Speaker 2:Leading people to walk with Jesus so that they can lead other people to walk with Jesus. That's so good. Anything else Frame up the top. As you look at the life of Jesus, what do you think are his top two or three leadership qualities that you're like I really want to emulate?
Speaker 3:that, as I look at the life of Jesus.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's a great question. I mean Jesus is, he's the best leader. He knows how the world works because he made it, and Jesus has every quality, every good quality to the max, some leadership qualities of Jesus. You know, jesus was so good in his communication. I want to be like that. I mean he presented the word so clearly, so compellingly. He taught in so many different kinds of ways. He used the birds of the air and the flowers of the field. I mean he just pulled on the things around him. Such a good communicator.
Speaker 3:You know what you said earlier about leading out of that overflow. I mean Jesus was constantly in communion with his heavenly father and I would hope that I would be able to do that, something similar, to have such a deep walk with God obviously not on the level that Jesus had with the father, but as much as a human being can do it to have a close walk with God and then for leadership to flow out of that with God and then for leadership to flow out of that Um, and then just just having a heart for people. Um, I don't know who it was it said. You know, as a, as a pastor, you want to kind of hold two things. You got the word in one hand and a love for people in the other hand, and you put those two things together, and then that's really where the power is, as the spirit works through those things.
Speaker 2:I love that clear communication. If people can be confused, if something is said in a way that can be confusing, people will be confused. So, jesus, jesus is the master at getting right to the heart of it. You're never left hanging out with Jesus wondering kind of where you stand. Jesus could speak hard words to people in power, to the Pharisees and scribes right, jesus could speak hard words to his disciples get behind me, satan. But Jesus also restored people, so, so well.
Speaker 2:I think of the transformation of the apostle Peter, very intentional. Do you love me? Do you love me? The denial three times. Do you love me? Do you love me Three times? And oh, yeah, you know I. And then he. What does he do now? As I've fed you, you've been my sheep, go and feed You're. You're being raised up, peter, into a shepherd. Go, go, feed my sheep. Go feed my sheep. It's Jesus is so, so kind and so clear with his words of law and gospel. That seems so kind of silly to say, but Jesus's law and gospel perfectly integrated in human flesh. Isn't that true? Anything more to dovetail on there, chris?
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know, and Jesus is so clear, like you said you know, and Jesus is so clear, like you said you know where you stand with him. But he says things in such a way where his teaching lives on as you're thinking about it, more and more. I mean for days and days. I bet some of the people that he spoke to had to ponder I know what he meant, but what did he mean there? And they had to keep thinking about it and learning. And so his words had that enduring effect where it wasn't just okay, got it moving on, but they continued to work in a person's heart.
Speaker 2:Well, think of the story of the sower sowing seed right, because there's so many different ways and he actually has to interpret it for the disciples. I love that because he says one thing out in the midst of the crowds, has to interpret it for the disciples. I love that because he says one thing out in the midst of the crowds and then he gets the disciples. We get behind the curtain, if you will. Here's what all of this means for you. He's so kind and, yeah, I mean he's the greatest. So, coming down the homestretch here, the greatest. So coming down the homestretch here. It's such a privilege to be in a denomination where our teaching is so clear and we've been apprenticed, mentored by amazing men and women of God who have been kind of our teachers and I've been blessed to stay connected to a number of them over the years and largely through the podcasts and um.
Speaker 2:There's just such a treasure in our church and I think people who have listened to me on lead time before, uh, you know, you may have a a preconceived notion that I, that I really don't like or want to do damage to the LCMS, and nothing could be further from the truth, because my friends are in this church body, which is my family, and I simply speak from a place of love and care and we challenge those that we care deeply about, both individually and collectively. So, as you look at the church body that we call home, what are your greatest hopes? And then, where do you hope we grow in the coming years and decades, chris?
Speaker 3:Yeah, greatest hopes. I hope we continue to keep the gospel front and center, and I know that that's the heart of who we are as a church body. So I'm very confident that'll happen. A hope that I have is that we will experience growth in all the ways that growth happens, whether it's spiritual growth, numerical growth. I'm hoping that that is the trajectory that will come in the future.
Speaker 3:Some things I would love to see. I'd love to see more innovation. How can we do this in a creative way that still honors who we are? But can we stay inside the box and yet get outside the box at the same time, without having to do away with the way that we serve people of all generations? It's not an either or, but it's a both.
Speaker 3:And how do we serve people of all generations? And how do we increase our appeal to young people and say, hey, this treasure is for you too, and here's why this is important for you? I also hope we grow in diversity cultural diversity, ethnic diversity. Jesus told us to go and make disciples of all nations, and that's happening in many great ways. I'm a part of the Texas district and there's all kinds of great mission starts and multi-ethnic things that are happening here and, I know, in other places in our senate as well, but we'd love to see that continue. To just have a heart for people of all nations, people who are different than me, people who come from a different background. That love of Jesus can really unite us and I hope and pray that that is something that marks our Synod going forward as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, and we want to be about all of those things. Growth when I think of growth I think we need vision. So, leaders at all different levels in our church body, from local parish pastors, district presidents to our synod president can we unify around a desire to see more people come into the kingdom of God? And I think, if that is our driving, why Orthodox? I've kind of struggled over the years like the tension between Orthodoxy and missiology or ecclesiology and missiology, and I think can we agree and we've had synod conventions where we've disagreed on this, that, and I don't really understand that.
Speaker 2:I'm still trying to learn that that God's intention from the very beginning, because of our active rebellion, our active sin, is to solve our sin problem, which is why Jesus came. And then Jesus is ascending God, he sends the Holy Spirit and then obviously the triune, god sends the church out to do what? To reach people, to get all of God's kids back. It seems like that missional and that can be labeled in a certain way, but the mission of God. Let's just go. If you want to read some good missiology, go to Christopher Wright and go to Mission from the Cross. I had that guest on and I can't remember his last name, now Professor of the Seminary, a great book that CPH published about 20 years ago. But yeah, can we agree on the intention of God to reach people with the gospel? That seems to be something we should be able to agree. And then it's going to take all types of people, all types of churches to reach all types of people. And that's where kind of the tension can lie, because then it gets into some of our practices Worship, obviously is one of them, and contemporary, traditional, et cetera. And can we have just more contextual hospitality? That's what I'm praying for as well.
Speaker 2:And and then to, to get to your diversity like young people really care about looking like heaven will look right, which is multi-ethnic, cross-cultural-cultural. I want to be about I know my kids they want to be about a church where people from diverse backgrounds and is that messy? Is that culture? Absolutely, that is the messiness of taking the gospel into the world. So I'm just affirming what I hear you saying growth, innovation, caring for the next generation. Saying growth, innovation, caring for the next generation and becoming a racially as well, if we're going to grow as America becomes more diverse ethnically, culturally, like this is something we've got to get our heads wrapped around Shout out to the cross-cultural ministry program.
Speaker 2:One thing I don't understand is why we've put limitations actually on the amount of students and the context from which in various districts. Now people don't know this and there are others who can speak to it much more aptly than I can, but I've been a professor connected to the cross-cultural ministry program but we don't have as many students in that program as maybe we could and should. From various places in our synod. That program has largely been fueling the ministry in the Pacific Southwest District as well as some of the West Coast districts and even Texas district, but outside of that very few other people have engaged in the cross-cultural learning that comes out of Concordia University, irvine, there. So, anyway, land the plane, chris. What did you hear there that I'm just kind of doubling down on? And final comments. This has been so fun.
Speaker 3:I hear a lot of passion for the gospel and I always hear that on all of your episodes and wanting to do everything we can do to reach people with the good news, and it sounds like there's some programs and some opportunities that are out there and praise God for all the people who are doing such good work to reach out with the gospel. And there's so much more to be done, so may the Holy Spirit continue to guide us in those efforts.
Speaker 2:Amen. If people want to connect with you, how can they do so, Chris?
Speaker 3:I do have a website. It's pastorchriskennedycom, and it has a blog that I'll add to periodically, has a list of all the books and how you can order contact methods as well. So I'd say, just go to the website PastorChrisKennedycom and you can find out more and get in touch, and I'd love to hear from people. Amen.
Speaker 2:And today we talked about. Jesus Said what this has been so much fun. Check it out and all of other. Chris Kennedy works. You just finished a book. Do you have another one in the hopper, If you don't mind? I didn't ask that.
Speaker 3:You know what? I was a contributor on a recent one through CPH called Come Follow Me, and it's 52 weeks of devotions. There's 11 authors and I'm one of them, and that one just came out. So that's the latest, right now Going to do some blog articles for CPH and then see where God leads on the next book, but I certainly love being able to share the message through a writing ministry. It's a great joy.
Speaker 2:Amen. This is Lead Time. Sharing is caring. You can like, subscribe, comment wherever it is you take in these podcasts, youtube. That is helpful, helping us grow Conversations in the LCMS filled with hope and love, a vision for unity, unity around the gospel and a vision for reaching more people with the never-changing gospel of Jesus Christ. It's a good day. Go and make it a great day. See you next week on Lead Time. Thanks, chris, this was fun. Thank you.
Speaker 3:Tim, god bless you.
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