Lead Time
Lead Time
Leaving the LCMS... Pastor James Whatley’s Unexpected Story
A heartfelt journey of ministry transformation emerges as we chat with Pastor James Whatley, who shares vital insights on stepping away from traditional paths to establish a thriving church community. With an emphasis on risk-taking, emotional health, and an inviting culture, this conversation explores the interplay of faith and growth in contemporary ministry.
- Introduction to James Whatley and his ministry background
- The significance of community engagement and relationship building
- Challenges faced within the LCMS structure and decision-making
- Embracing risk and discomfort for church renewal
- Importance of emotional health in pastoral leadership
- Strategies for creating an inviting church culture
- The gap between local congregational urgency and denominational focus
- Insights on ministry's adaptability to modern culture
- Final encouragements on fostering openness and outreach
If you find this podcast helpful, please share it with your family, friends, and neighbors, especially those in the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod who are praying for us to unite to reach people with the gospel.
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Speaker 2:Welcome to Lead Time, tim Allman here with Jack Kauberg. Jack, how you doing? Loving life, dude?
Speaker 3:Amen, absolutely loving life. It's a beautiful time here to be in Arizona.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's not just the weather, right, it's the people that we get to hang out with. We're getting done with a week of best practices so, to put a time stamp on it, it's a Wednesday after best practices has ended. So still on a high of seeing so many of my friends, and one of the friends that I got to see is a longtime pastor, james Watley. Let me tell you about him. James is hanging with us today. He's a pastor, husband to Jen, father of four, serves as a pastor at the Haven Christian Church. He's on the board for Casas Por Cristo, a home building ministry that serves in Latin America. James has lived in Eau Claire. Am I saying that right?
Speaker 4:You're saying it right.
Speaker 2:Eau Claire, okay, cool.
Speaker 4:It's like the pastry right.
Speaker 2:Where in the world is Eau Claire? Is that Wisconsin?
Speaker 4:Yeah, eau Claire Clearwater. So, for context, we're about 90 miles outside the Twin Cities on a straight line to Green Bay. So it's in Minnesota, it's in Wisconsin. Oh, we're on a straight line. I thought it was on Wisconsin.
Speaker 2:Okay, good, good, good, I thought so such a mess. Anyway, O'Claire, he's been there since 2006. Loves being a part of the Chippewa Valley. There he has an MDiv from Concordia Seminary, st Louis, a DMIN from Fuller Theological Seminary. James enjoys running all kinds of sports and watching 90s action movies with his kids. So before we get going, what's your favorite 90s action, because I'm getting into this too. I mean, I've rolled out Gladiator. That's probably 2000s, I think.
Speaker 2:But a number of these movies I'm watching with my son now. So what kind of action movies in the 90s? Die Hard, are we Die Hard or what?
Speaker 4:You know Die Hard was a big one. My kids and I recently just did Days of Thunder, and so that was big around here, right?
Speaker 2:Who's in Days of Thunder? Alright, so it's Tom Cruise. He's a.
Speaker 4:NASCAR driver. Oh yeah, I remember that one. Yep, yep.
Speaker 2:Anyway, tom Cruise, that guy never. It's amazing that guy's still doing his thing.
Speaker 4:Botox and surgery, the guy looks the same in the new Top Gun as he did in the old Top Gun Right. How does how does that happen? I think technology as well aiding aiding Botox and surgery.
Speaker 2:Nonetheless, james has been gracious enough to get on and share his story. So tell the story of your church and your relationship, the evolving relationship with. Let's just dive right into the deep end, from Tom Cruise to talking about the LCMS. It makes a lot of sense, anyway. So tell the story of your ministry and kind of connection to the LCMS. It makes a lot of sense, anyway. So tell the story of your ministry and kind of connection to the LCMS.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so, as you mentioned, tim LCMS pastor, originally ordained in 2006. And then in 2021, I resigned from the call that I had and I didn't resign for moral reasons or doctrinal reasons and then from that I was placed on something that those kind of familiar with inside baseball it's called inactive status, and I was not restricted so I could do pastoral ministry, but it meant I was not at a church at the time, and so anyone who's gone through something like that, that is a lot. It's a dislocating moment in so many ways, emotionally and otherwise. Coming out of that, some folks came up to me and said we're not worshiping anywhere. Would you pastor us? Could we start a church together? And that's a huge thing. That's probably a podcast for another day.
Speaker 4:But I said yes and we started meeting in my driveway and from my driveway we went to people's front yards, to a local middle school, to renting a building, to finally, in October, we completed building our building and it's been quite the journey. By God's providence, it's grown. We've reached people who did not know the Lord, who are far from the kingdom, and that has been just an incredible thing to see. And throughout that journey I've kept that inactive status, but the church has been an independent church, so the way we describe it, we're an independent Christian church with Lutheran roots and that went basically okay for three years. And then, as I got about three years in this journey, I was contacted by the district and was told okay, your church either needs to join the LCMS or you need to resign. And I get that organizationally, you know, with trying to create alignment and pull people in, I also know where we're at and it was just a challenging thing as I still process it. Ultimately, I made the decision to resign from the roster of the Missouri Senate.
Speaker 2:Well, that's interesting. Go ahead, Jack.
Speaker 3:That's a difficult. So I'm kind of curious. I don't know how comfortable you are sharing that. I imagine in that situation there's a weighing process of pros and cons to doing that. What did that process look like for you? Yeah, that's a weighing process of pros and cons to doing that. What did that process look like for you?
Speaker 4:Yeah, that's a great question and really, as we looked at it, one of the biggest things for us. Well, let me just start with the theological. So first it's we have. You know, this is not 1972 and the walkout. So for me and for my church, the issue was not do we disagree with things in the Bible? We have a very high view of the Bible. On our website and in our documents it says that we subscribe to the confessions. So those were not an issue For us. The biggest issue was our church went from 40 to four or 500.
Speaker 4:On a Sunday we have three full-time staff and a small but motivated leadership team. In the next season, where's the energy going to be placed in terms of what we do? We'll be placed with organizational alignment, in terms of Synod Incorporated, or are we going to double down on reaching the lost, on moving the church forward, building out systems and programming so that people get closer to Jesus? I realize those things aren't mutually exclusive, but that was part of it. Um, part of it as well was just looking at the Synod as an organization and we realized this that there are great things from institutions and organizations. After I've stepped out of the LCMS, I still have all my LCMS friends, all my LCMS connections, the people that I was relating to, who are missional, who are faithful, who are on the ground Lutherans. None of that has changed, and so we lost maybe a bit of organizational hierarchy, but we didn't lose the things that were most important to us in this season.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's interesting. So a requirement to uh oh, I'm just going to say it this way A requirement to join the LCMS or resign is basically the same thing as join the LCMS or you're fired. I just, I'm just laying that out there.
Speaker 2:Um, that's just something that we think about. You're fired from the LCMS.
Speaker 3:It doesn't mean you're fired from your church Right, not fired from the lcms. It doesn't mean you're fired exactly right.
Speaker 2:Not fired from your church, you're fired from the roster and so what? What I kind of uh wrestle with in the story is what were the barriers? As you think, because I think you know the devil's advocate here is going to say why can't you do mission, multiply disciples, reach your community and join and become a recognized congregation in the LCMS. I mean, what was it about that process that and I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but that kind of weighed in your conscience, going down both paths at the same time? James.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I think one of it, tim, is that as you look at the LCMS, it feels as though there's been an institutional shift.
Speaker 4:The LCMS is not the same LCMS it was 15 years ago. It's just not, and I think that a lot of people realize that, and that's not an on-the-ground perspective Great people on the ground. Institutionally it's moved that way. We realized that our church and I'm a moderate guy within the stream of the LCMS, my theology has not changed that entire time, probably where I would have been, where our church would have maybe been celebrated 15 years ago. Now we're on the edge and we realize that, and so what's important to us is being faithful here on the ground and connecting with like-minded networks and missional organizations that move things ahead, and that's where we want to put our bandwidth and our energy in the days ahead. So for me it was more pragmatic than it was. I don't really like the institution. There are good people in the institution who are doing great work. It's just us trying to read the tea leaves and see what the future looks like.
Speaker 3:Is the concern with the institution cultural or systemic? That you would say.
Speaker 4:Well, I maybe would look at it this way If you look at the current LCMS as an institution and what it's producing, if you're a family systems guy and I love to talk about family systems the system is perfectly set up to produce what it's producing. Producing, Does that make sense? And so you know, if it's producing, in my mind, less individuals that are in churches that are moving ahead and contemporary worship, less contextual awareness, more traditional liturgical elevation, more institutional control through, you know, just residential seminary education, those kinds of things. The institution is set up to do that. And how do you navigate that? Well, maybe you try to change the institution. Or, for us, we want to be faithful on the front lines and so, whether we connect with the institution proper or we move things ahead on our own, we feel OK on that side of it. So I don't know, Jack, if that gets to where you're trying to go. I think it does I mean?
Speaker 3:what I'm hearing from you is that, systemically speaking, it's reflecting the organization's values accurately. The values have shifted. At one point, like you said, 15 years ago you might have been celebrated. Now you're being maybe seen as on the fringe of what's considered acceptable orthodoxy within the church body. Right, Is that? Probably so. That would be kind of maybe a little bit of a cultural slash, doctrinal shift in the church body. That would find yourself in that situation. Is that right, I feel?
Speaker 4:like that's a fair perception and so okay. So at a church, limited staff, limited resources I mean resources are finite. You have so much horsepower, when are you going to apply your horsepower and what battles are you going to choose to fight in the days ahead? So we know where we're going, we know who we want to be and what we want to do and we feel okay with that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so let's talk about what we'd like to see. I've been, I guess, on the record saying our vision needs to be re-evaluated. You know, leadership is constantly re-evaluating leadership from the local to the regional, to the national level, and I feel like maybe another way to define the struggle is there's a vision disconnect from the national to the local, with our districts trying to mediate, contextualize what that respective vision is. And some of us, in contexts like ours growing, you know, urban, suburban, so many people migrating into the Phoenix Metro our sense of urgency to reach people with the gospel is higher than the sense of urgency that we see coming from maybe the national church body and or other districts. And that doesn't make the national church body bad or even those districts bad. We're just different and the system is not.
Speaker 2:The system, like you say, is set up to do what it's done right now to help a Christendom era reach people who are moving into their area that have the same worldview. Right, jack, I mean? Christ Greenfield was planted to reach Lutherans who are moving to Phoenix. Well, we're not in Kansas anymore, right, I mean, things have shifted. Lutherans are not coming to Phoenix. We have to go make Lutherans, we've got to go, make disciples of Jesus. Go ahead, jack.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I would say, in addition to that, like a vision gap, right, we've got visions of thousands of pastors being raised up in metropolitan areas Sorry, I got a bell going off in the courtyard here because school chapel is amazing, it's awesome, I love it. And then sometimes you hear about it on the podcast. It's awesome, I love it. And then sometimes you hear about it on the podcast, it's great. So you know, we have visions of thousands of pastors being raised up to serve metropolitan areas the Phoenix metro area has got five million people in it and to actually serve the Phoenix metro area with enough people that can preach and do word in sacrament, you know we need 10,000 pastors or pastor equivalent type of people to do that.
Speaker 3:There's no vision that exists in our church body that would raise up 10,000 in the entire nation, and so we have to really, you know, we have to shift our normative way of thinking. The way that we're casting vision, the way that we're thinking about our systems has to radically change and we're still thinking in a very linear way, in a very, I would say, christendom way of thinking with the institution, and we're not there anymore and this is very ambitious the way that we're thinking about things, and it's also being dismissed as unrealistic. And again, I think it's being dismissed as unrealistic because it's also being dismissed as unrealistic. And again, I think it's being dismissed as unrealistic because it's, you know, because it's not orthodox. It's not what we're used to doing, but what's happening is other church bodies are doing this. They're actually succeeding at doing this. So I don't know, james.
Speaker 4:So a lot of it guys is are we grasping the cultural moment? And what I think is interesting is when I look internally at the LCMS I forget who said this, maybe it was Patterson but there are different kinds of people and leaders. There are pioneers, there are settlers, there are developers and then there are redevelopers and those things are not always in loggerhead and sometimes it's a continuum between them. But what's most needed in the next season? Is it a season where we need more development or is it a season of pioneering and redevelopment? Right, and I'm not saying in any way. And what's interesting is these are not theological principles, issues that people are fighting over. They're not confessional issues that people are fighting over. They are cultural, pragmatic issues about reaching people for the sake of the kingdom. And that's where I think, you know, for me, man, I am a pioneer. I want to see people who don't know Jesus meet Jesus and I believe, all my brothers in the LCMS want the same thing.
Speaker 4:So that's not an indictment. But the way God has wired me is I have no problem saying let's move ahead something new for the sake of reaching lost people, and I am not a guy who you want in that developmental chair trying to either align us deeply with Senate or try to realign a Synod structure, and so if I can connect with people that are moving ahead the mission outside, I don't really need to be inside.
Speaker 3:So that's that's kind of my take. Yeah, I mean my. My perspective is like we're getting really big on the issue here. Pastoral formation this is a big issue. It is, you know, in terms of the desired outcome. That's not optional. We want confessional, biblical Lutheran pastors, so that's like this.
Speaker 3:That's not an option of what we want in terms of what we want our theology to be Right, but in terms of formation, that's adiaphora, and we've seen multiple models being used to raise up people. It's adiaphora and we've seen multiple models being used to raise up people. What's not adiaphora is the mission, the mission of God, right. So there's something that's not adiaphora being missional, right, being on mission to reach new people, right with the gospel. But formation is adiaphora, but we treat it like it's not. We're treating it like it's not an issue of adiaphora, but we treat it like it's not. We're treating it like it's not an issue of adiaphora. We're making it into a law, you know, a form of, I don't know. It gets theologized, right. We're making assertions and treating it as if the Bible says that this is the only right way to do it. I don't know. Thoughts on that.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I think you know, if I were to look at what I hear people reading the LCMS, the guy that I would encourage them to read is a little bit more of Walther and Walther from that Zion on the Mississippi era, right? I mean, look at the guy that the guy who was the bishop is removed for a moral failure. And what does Walther do? He steps in. He reads scripture deeply and he says, hey, do? He steps in. He reads scripture deeply and he says, hey, look, wherever two or three are gathered in my name, we're church. He forms a seminary. He starts educating and training pastors because he saw the contextual need of the moment and for the sake of the kingdom. He was bold and courageous. And so you know, that is part of our culture and our heritage. Let's hold that up and embrace that.
Speaker 2:In this day and age. We've moved past a moment. You talk about embracing the cultural moment there, james, and there's some others that can speak even more deeply to this. But we've moved past seeing the early church meaning we're in a secular day and age. So when we were shifting culturally, the early church playbook, the early church book of Acts, it was our playbook.
Speaker 2:But today there are many saying the way of Jesus. Just get back to the source of it all. How did Jesus do it? And when I say do it, it was really. It's not just pastoral formation, it was deep discipleship leading toward the expansion of the kingdom of God through missionary leaders, all different types of roles and vocations, et cetera, being released out into the marketplace, starting new churches. I mean released out into the marketplace, starting new churches. I mean you talk vision. Jesus cast the biggest vision ever. You'll be my disciples and multiply my message from Jerusalem, judea, samaria to the ends of the earth. It's not going to be you. So you know, get off the throne. This is the work of my Holy Spirit, who's going to be unleashed lavishly upon you so that people would be drawn into a relationship with me and by the end of the book of Acts, this thing, they're turning the world.
Speaker 2:I've been fascinated with the Acts. 17 persecutors of the apostles are saying look at how they're turning the world upside down. We're talking like 20, 25 years after Jesus has been bodily raised from the dead. Within less than a generation, jack, like the gospel is going forth to all these different places. They're turning all of the social structures, all of the cultural norms on their head, because Caesar's not Lord, jesus is Lord. And so I get. I'm not frustrated, I'm just like why is that not like so easy, so evident to see? And if leaders in all different types of places could just say let's agree on Jesus as Lord and whatever it takes to get the gospel into the ears of people who are far from the Lord.
Speaker 2:For young people, this is what I don't think we realize. For young people that have never, they don't have a concept of the church. They're like it's like a blank slate for many, because you've got a lot of boomers. And then Gen X, jack, our generation, many of us have not even been in a church, we're not even churched, and so isn't this a great opportunity for us to just let these young people know there's a God who, desperately, is in love with them. His name is Jesus and he wants a relationship with you. And here's what that looks like Be baptized, every one of you for the forgiveness of your sins. Like we can look at how the early church did it and look at the rabbinic model of Jesus for how he raised up leaders and say we're, it's not going to be, you know, exactly exactly like that, because our context is different, but it shouldn't be too dissimilar from that. Any comments on that? James?
Speaker 4:Man, I just love it, you know, to move the mission ahead and to realize also that things have changed right. I was in Florida, I was in a small group meeting last week and one of the ladies in our small group and she's, you know, 10, 15 years older than I am and she said I grew up in a house that I was not a Christian Like how'd you become a Christian? I kid you not. She's like I watched the Waltons in Little House on the Prairie. What, no way.
Speaker 4:And we're like, how did that happen? And she's like, well, they went to church. And I'm like, what's that like? And she came through that cultural season to Jesus, right, and then people discipled her and she grew along the way, right, and we know how that shakes out. But all of us in the group are like that would not happen today. Nope, that is not the water of our culture today.
Speaker 4:And I think that sometimes, you know, and we all feel this, I'm reading a book right now called the Comfort Crisis and it's absolutely fantastic.
Speaker 4:And the author of the book talks about this that our biology wires us to seek comfort, talks about this, that our biology wires us to seek comfort.
Speaker 4:And that is why, uh, first, it's paralyzing for me to say I'll step out away from an institution. That is paralyzing, yeah, but the biggest moments in life are those moments where we embrace the discomfort. Yep, and that is so key for all of us to witness and see together, as you point out, tim, in the gospels and in the book of Acts. I mean, those people were so moved by the fact that this guy named Jesus rose from the dead that they're like we're going to go tell everybody, we're going to form new relationships. We're going to do whatever we can to put that in front of people, and that is such a great heartbeat for people to embrace, and I would just encourage people as much as I can to say you know, there are certain things that we think give us stability. Jesus Christ is the stability that we need and the stability that others need, and so let's lead boldly and move toward that.
Speaker 3:I think you're right At the end of the day, if we think that institution building is the source of stability, that we have just put our hope in a false God. You know and I don't mean that as like specifically an LCMS alone thing that's something that everybody does. We do institution building, we build our towers right, and then God comes by and he knocks down the towers because he's got other things that we need to get done right. So hopefully the process for the LCMS won't be that painful. But who knows? There might be a season of pruning that's going on as we're figuring things out and I pray that the Holy spirit guides the decision-making of our church body. Yeah, Amen.
Speaker 4:You know what I think everybody and what I so appreciate about you guys no one wants an institution to fail, right? You know? I mean it's like, uh, if you're on the plane, I pray for the pilot every time, right, that they would get us there safely and land well. And so the prayer is prayer is for flying well and just to be more mindful of the cultural moment and moving in to new areas in a way that's faithful to Jesus and faithful to a lot of our heritage and our tradition, and I think that's an important thing for the days ahead.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So let's get more specific about what you think we need. You mentioned in some of your notes here a desire to risk more, and that kind of comes down to the comfort crisis. People would rather not risk Every time, though this is what I found. Every time I embrace the discomfort and the risk, the entrepreneurial build measure, learn, lean, startup kind of model. Every time I and we, individually and collectively, as a congregation and a ULC embrace that, I grow, I learn, I try, I recognize my identity shouldn't be in what I'm trying to do. It should be in Christ. But then more people on the other side come into a right relationship with God. On the other side of the risk, it seems like that's what Jesus was hoping to do by leaving and sending the Holy Spirit. Is this going to be risky? Yeah, they're going to persecute you just like they persecute me. Guys are going to come after you too, but don't be afraid, I'm with you through it all by my spirit's power. So anything more on embracing a posture of risk, appropriate risk taking there, james.
Speaker 4:Right. So there's faithful risk within the kingdom and I would encourage people to step into that more, to realize that if our natural default is to build comfort and safety and security, that risk is a helpful avenue. Through that, and to draw just a little bit on that book, there's an interesting thing that it points out. It asks this question when was anxiety higher during the 1930s or today? It's higher today, right, I would imagine so it is. I mean, functional anxiety is higher and higher and higher.
Speaker 4:And then to think about this, when was life more difficult now or during the Great Depression? Much worse back then? Much worse back then. And so the author of the book argues this that we've built so many structures to keep us comfortable that that is exacerbating our anxiety. And when we actually step more toward difficult things and this is just like secular psychology and we step more toward difficult things, that that's helpful for us. And I think God has wired us that way in a first article way to serve his purposes in the kingdom. And so you know the way that I think through this, tim, is you know, every church and maybe every person should at least have somewhere where they're saying how am I stepping towards something that's difficult and hard for the sake of Jesus. How am I embracing that more fully?
Speaker 4:And one of my handles on this just in my life is that years ago somebody gave me a book called An American Icon. It's the story of the Ford Motor Company turnaround and it's a fascinating story that a lot of people don't know or haven't heard. But Ford almost went bankrupt and they brought in a CEO, alan Mulally, and he leveraged everything Ford had through banks in New York, even a little blue oval, and use that money to turn the organization around. And he had a great plan but he was unafraid to risk to move it ahead. And when I look at the assets and the resources of the Senate and of our churches, we should be deploying those forward for kingdom risk. I mean we have a far greater challenge than Ford Motor Company did.
Speaker 4:Every year the population of the United States is growing and every year less and less people are Christians who know Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord man. Well, what are we supposed to do? God has placed resources into our hands. Let's leverage those and let's go after those who don't know Christ. And I'm not saying to be reckless in that, but if every church is just like let's leverage a little bit of what we have for the glory of God. I mean, I think it would be exciting just to see that and to embrace that posture of risk and, whatever happened, it would not be boring, it would be an exciting season for those churches. Man.
Speaker 2:Well, you look at the early church they had. I mean they're on the fringe of the fringe of the fringe. We listened to Jeff Cloas speak recently and given the data on what like 50 Christians max in Corinth when Paul is writing 1st and 2nd Corinthians in a city of like 150,000 people, it's like less than 0.10% of 1%, right, I mean it's like very, very insignificant. If leaders and juxtapose that with the LCMS today, okay, oh yeah, we're how many people? I don't know. 1 point, what 2 million? I don't know somewhere in there. How many churches, I don't know.
Speaker 2:But if every church had a missionary, multiplying mindset, like we could radically shift the American Christian landscape. But I don't see the systems have to follow that sort of a vision. But I don't see that kind of vision and therefore I don't see the systems evolving toward that. It becomes more and more tribal, more and more protective, more and more isolated, and I think it's well. This may be the law, it is.
Speaker 2:I think it's unfaithful to those that have gone before us in our church body, who have invested time and energy toward this end. I mean, you look at what if CFW Walther would look today, not to mention Luther, but if CFW Walther looked at the petty power struggle conversations we're having about multiplying disciples. Based on what he wrote, he would have some issues with the way we're posturing ourselves today. This is unfortunate. He'd be a dude of abundance. He'd be like do you know how hard it was when we came across and our dude like Stephan, all of our chips were in the Stephan basket and then it was upset how hard that was to reconstitute. You guys, get over yourselves, man, figure it out, figure it out.
Speaker 3:Go ahead, jack. Yeah, I mean, I think you nailed it, tim. I think what the church body needs right now is it's less about two seminaries that pump out a lot of pastors. It's really about a thousand seminaries that pump out a tiny number of pastors as, potentially, a seminary experience where pastors can be raised up and deployed locally. And if that is the system, if that is a system that our church body would adopt and you're equipping it with like really phenomenal online content and having a really robust process for certifying people, you will see, in a matter of generations, exponentially more churches and pastors in this country than you will using the traditional system that we have right now.
Speaker 3:That is just a matter of fact. This is just, mathematically speaking, the way that goes. But here's the problem you can't necessarily quote, unquote, control a thousand learning expressions. Some of those people might end up not agreeing with 100% of everything that you agree with. Guess what they didn't agree with it beforehand. Anyway. It's not like you made them worse, right? You're bringing them in a better direction, no matter what, and you're going to have a lot of people that are going to be really phenomenal pastors, that are raising up churches and just having really great missional outcomes for our church body. So, yeah, I think there's a hard issue of risk avoidance that is really dominating, I think, the culture of our church body right now and that risk avoidance is creating laws. That's impacting our effectiveness with the Great Commission.
Speaker 2:Yeah, james, anything more there.
Speaker 4:Absolutely, guys. And I mean one of the things that you know, now that we're fully embracing being outside of the system, what forces us to ask questions? Maybe the early church asked, like gosh, how are we going to raise up leaders? And some inside the nomination doing that and some outside, right, but for us it's like hey, we need a pipeline. Like hey, we need a pipeline. We need people who are growing to become spiritually mature. We need people who are growing to understand the word in a faithful way.
Speaker 4:And you know, then, what are those resources we can tap into, because we're not going to get a pastor from the outside, but we can take bivocational people, train them well and use them here. And so I think, just there's this spirit where, in a little ways, you feel like you're on your own. You know you're not, but in some ways, like Walter, it redirects you to build out what's necessary in the days ahead. And I would just encourage people in the synod, in the synod, outside the synod, wherever people fall, embrace that spirit right, for the sake of the kingdom. Leading training it's healthy, it's good, there's life there.
Speaker 2:We talk a lot about having difficult conversations. I think we've regressed and there are some pockets we're going to be sharing in another episode soon here our conversation with both seminary presidents, our perspective and hoping to get one or both of them on and I pray for them. They're brothers, they're kind, our visions are different but it was a collegial conversation. We have the same confession and just how we accomplish the mission. There's just some variance of opinion regarding how we do that. So I'm not speaking as I talk about this, I'm not speaking directly to that. I think that's a sign that we're moving in a healthier direction.
Speaker 2:But overall and I guess social media doesn't do us any favors and who do you kind of align with? You know, you look at the LCMS. If you listen and like anything that ULC puts out, that means you're obviously liberal, you've adopted a progressive theological position and it's like well, all we're talking about is culture stuff for the most part here. So we want I think the Holy Spirit wants leaders at every level in the LCMS to become more emotionally healthy, to handle self well in the midst of disagreement or maybe difficult conversations where you don't know, in the liminal space we've mentioned liminality where you don't know how to get there and you're no longer where you were. How do I handle myself well in the midst of that space? So any kind of words of wisdom, james, for going about that well.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and I mean first just to repent, right. I mean, let the one who has not handled a conversation well throw the first stone right. I have blown it in that respect. I mean we can all be tribal, we can all think we're right. What has helped me see myself more fully and what do I think had helped the church?
Speaker 4:I've really been blessed by Peter Scazzaro's emotionally healthy discipleship. He was in his church for 40 years and he's like hey, I've been pastoring for 40 years, why are there still these issues of emotional hurt and anger and inappropriate conversations and all this stuff coming up amongst people? And he had this realization. He's like if you are only focusing on learning scripture, you can create Pharisees. The Pharisees knew scripture. The transformation of the heart is really important, right, and so I think you know helping people get in touch with their stuff.
Speaker 4:I've heard most guys carry on to emotions, anger and anxiety. Well, there's deeper stuff right there and if you can handle it in a healthy way, that can be helpful. And so that's a long conversation of the day. The other thing is I remember one of my mentors used to always say the first step in disagreement is understanding, really understanding, and I think that embracing that posture can be good, really trying to understand hey, why are you doing what you're doing? Why do you have this approach and this opinion? And I've been blessed when I've taken that posture. When my sin nature grabs a hold of me and I don't, things don't go as well as I want them to.
Speaker 2:Okay, well, this has been good. Let's pivot. Let's move into leadership, pastoral leadership, as you look to develop other leaders around you. What are your top three core pastoral leadership values, james, that you're trying to pass on to those you're discipling?
Speaker 4:Yeah, I would say first, faithful to scripture. Right, I mean, that should just be a key for all of us. I heard someone say we're not judged by how successful we are, we're judged by how faithful we are. And so constantly saying, is this where Jesus wants me to go? Is this who he wants me to be? I think that's incredibly helpful, I would say.
Speaker 4:Second is development, and sometimes in the church we can have a mindset, particularly those of us with staffs and those of us who are hiring like I'm going to hire a rock star and I think everybody on our staff is really, really good. But think about it this way what if there was a mindset shift and a value shift to say, I'll hire somebody who is good, but I'll hire someone who's a developer, who can move people along the leadership continuum? Because if you have one leader who's really great, their impact is less. You know, if you they're a 10, if you have a person who's a developer and they can develop five, eights or nines, I mean that is multiplication, that is handing over leadership to people's really exciting. So I'm a big fan of the developmental game let's well, we're a fan of that too.
Speaker 2:Let's pause there for a second. Um, this is, this is why on our executive teams, I think we need to have, let's talk, age here. Um, the young leader in me really enjoyed being the guy. If I'm just honest, you enjoy, like the lights, you enjoy. Oh, people are listening to me. I mean, this is just the carnal, fleshy side right, and every, you know, every pastor, I think, has a little you like talking about Jesus and, hopefully, people. There's an attractional element to the winsomeness in the way in which we talk about Jesus. But when I came here, it was like I'd been there, done that for five or six years and it was okay. It's good. But what's great is to start to develop others, to see the Jake Besslings come alive in his early experience and now there's a whole community of communicators of the gospel in a variety of different contexts. It's just absolutely the best.
Speaker 2:So the reason I'm bringing this up is if the rock star I don't know if you're using the right language, but you use rock star, so we'll just go with one who has been gifted to do something in ministry, whether it's preaching, whether it's teaching, whether it's evangelism, whatever, like. I don't think we should be too quick to squelch that. We should platform that appropriately, based on that gifting. But it's the developer's mindset to say, hey, now as you've received this, there's going to be a season for you to learn how to transfer that. Because it's one thing to learn the skill, it's another thing to teach the skill to other people and I don't know right now, again, this gets down to. We always move back to development in a lot of our conversations. I don't know the systems and expectations have been in place for pastors We'll just talk pastors for pastors to turn into developers rather than just doers.
Speaker 2:And I think, if it doesn't come from the pastor, the senior pastor, the sole pastor, whatever, if it doesn't come from the pastor raising up others, right, some have questioned do I have the right? Do we have the right? But do I, specifically in my right, have the responsibility, the right to raise up other people, to do what I do, absolutely I do like from Jesus, from the apostles, you know, but it's based on, it's based on my gifting. I know what I can do, what I can't do. Jack does a lot of the things I can't do. It never will be able to do in terms of finance system structure, things like that.
Speaker 2:But like I love communicating the gospel and I want to raise up other people that are passionate communicators of of the gospel, god worked that, worked that in me.
Speaker 2:So I think, to land that plane a lot of people the young 20 something, early 30 year old Tim land that plane a lot of people the young 20 something, early 30 year old Tim, you know, all full of him and vigor, all that kind of stuff, the Holy Spirit had to work something in my heart to say it's not about that, like all of the accolades, all of the attaboys et cetera, it's not about that. And if I had many kind guides, think of like a James Watley, I had many. This is the David Languish and others who were pouring into me in those days who said it's going to be about more, it's going to be about taking this about you, tim. No, it's about Jesus. And then it's about us, it's about the wider body of Christ. So I say all that to don't discount the people who are in your midst, who are naturally gifted to do certain things. That's not the enemy, it's just not the end goal. Anything more to say there, james.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I can go on on this for quite a bit, but I see that what you said myself, tim, I love preach, I love to be out there, the guy doing things. I would say also, if we want to look into our own heart, we can get really wrapped up in what we do, and that can be our identity. My identity is not pastor, my identity is child of God, right Beloved one of the King, and so that helps me to get healthy emotional separation where I'm still using my gifts. But also I realized that I can lead more with open hands and by that other people can step in, that I can lead more with open hands and by that other people can step in. They can lead, they can do, because none of us knows the future, and the future is guaranteed to none of us, and so I want to leave my organization in a good place, and so to do that, we have to be handing things off and developing people.
Speaker 2:Yep Fact All right. So, faithful to scripture, a development culture.
Speaker 4:Third one emotional health. Yeah, this is one where I mean, my goodness, I don't know if people shared enough, but it's so important that we raise up leaders who aren't just knowledgeable but also emotionally healthy. And I would just encourage every leader and I've had to grow in this. I was not always emotionally healthy. I'm still on that journey of becoming more emotionally healthy, you know, and I like to joke, I do really well, until I go to one of my kids youth basketball games and then then there's some repenting there, right, you know, because it's like he's the pastor and he's fired up.
Speaker 4:But in seriousness, like you know, we keep it in check, um, but uh, you know, just on on that whole thing, like gosh, get it, get a great counselor to do some reading about some good stuff, about what it means to be human and a child of God and grow in that area, in that arena. And so I'll just say, as I'm starting now to work with some young leaders that I'm developing to serve in the church, emotionally healthy discipleship that is a core part of it, not just the intellectual, but also how we interact and treat other people, and I had to learn a lot of that through some pain and missteps and shortcomings in my own life that he's given to you, not just to you but to the body of Christ, and grateful to the people that are around you and just hunt, trying to find the beauty and the goodness and how God is at work and speak and write.
Speaker 2:And you know the gratitude journal, whatever it takes writing letters to people If you want to grow in emotional health. There's a lot of research actually it's actually the most undeveloped research in the social sciences and the scientific psychology kind of realm is a study on the benefits of gratitude. They're off the charts physically, relationally, spiritually it's. It's extraordinary and like and Jesus gave us this invitation, right. The fourth petition is all about daily bread. Right, god, you give me daily bread. I'm grateful for this meal. I get to have a little leftover hamburger today for lunch. You know, I'm just grateful for that hamburger. I'm looking forward to that today. But gratitude fuels a life of joy, meaning and significance and purpose, because you recognize nothing. Everything is gravy, right, I mean it's all gift. It's all gift.
Speaker 2:I got to tell this story, man. I got to hang out yesterday with a 90-year-old member of our congregation who is a recent widower. Shout out to Ivan Dankenbring. He lives about two miles down the road in a senior adult community and you go and interact 90 years old, you go, and his wife went to be with Jesus a couple years ago. You go and interact with this guy. You would think he's never had a trouble or trial in his life Like he is. Isn't this right, jack? He is on overdrive.
Speaker 3:Jesus, joy. Yeah, bringing his friends to church, that's joy. Bringing his friends to church, that's crazy.
Speaker 2:Bringing his friends to church. I mean it's unbelievable. He's a lifer and he talks about how he's got to. He goes right here. We had lunch with him just yesterday. Right here sits my Jewish friend. She's on the way to Jesus, and then over here is my Mormon friend. She has to understand grace, and then I get to talk about Jesus to them and he's starting a Bible study.
Speaker 2:He's a missionary, he's a missionary and we're going to start like a micro church out of that facility. It's great. It's great, but that comes from a posture. I say all that to say this that comes from a posture of gratitude and practicing. This is a man who, every single day, no matter what was going on, and he had his troubles and trials. I've known them. But he woke up and said Jesus, this is the day that you have made. I'm going to rejoice and be glad in it. How different would our conversations be.
Speaker 2:If every day we started out like that. I can't wait to see the adventure, the people that you bring to me today, lord. It's going to be amazing, james. Anything more to add on gratitude?
Speaker 4:Man, it's so the joy of our Lord's, our strength, right, you know, I agree, and I think somebody once said you can't be anxious and grateful at the same time have you ever heard that Same part of your brain.
Speaker 4:And so just stopping and saying thank you, god for this we haven't put it up yet, but we're going to we're going to put up a board in our office with our prayer requests, and then our staff member is like she heard somewhere. She's like let's track that and let's start saying thank you for all those things that are answered, and I'm like that just feels right, doesn't it? Thank you, god, for all you've done for me. It's good.
Speaker 2:So let's raise up more leaders who are faithful to scripture, have a development mindset and are growing in their emotional awareness, taking on the posture of Jesus, filled with joy and gratitude. All right, maybe last question. Here we're coming down the homestretch. This has been amazing. Jack and I have been talking a lot about building an invitability culture, the gift of hospitality. The early church was known primarily for two things it was sacrificial living, even to the point of death, and overwhelming hospitality. Look at how they love one another. So how are you seeking, in your context, to build an invitability, hospitable culture in your congregation, james?
Speaker 4:to build an invitability, hospitable culture in your congregation, james? Yeah, that's a great question, guys, and I think a couple of things are really important. First, you know, sometimes we put a lot of emphasis on the new person, put a lot of emphasis on the volunteers and love the volunteers and treat the volunteers well. We pushed our volunteers pretty hard here. We need to do more about that, but I would say, treat them well. For us, we're very intentional about having them out front to connect and invite. We're very intentional about follow up. It's all volunteer driven in terms of when somebody comes they like it here.
Speaker 4:They opt in to our email list. They're reached out to by Tuesday with somebody just connecting and saying hey, how are you? What's going on? We love that you came here and to keep that conversation going. So we're very intentional about that. Very intentional about follow up with people, because people matter to God, people because people matter to God. And then I think, too, just turning our people loose to know that this is a place where, if they do bring somebody who's new, they're going to be loved and welcomed wherever they're at on that journey with Jesus. And it's super exciting to see that play out when people go out and connect and engage and bring people into our church.
Speaker 2:So good, jack, any follow-up there in?
Speaker 3:terms of building an inviolability culture. That's fantastic. Yeah, we're going to be having a few conversations about that over the next few episodes of Lead Time. What it looks like to be inviting people into the church. You know, inviting people into the church. You know, 100% of a church's growth comes from bringing guests in into the front door. A tiny, tiny little fraction of that is births, right? So I know sometimes we like to we talk about demographic declines, but there are churches that are growing and are very healthy because of their hospitality. Letting people know that they belong there, that they are seen, that they are valued, you know. Letting know I say this where do sinners belong? They belong in church with me, next to me, right? That's where they belong and we need to have that attitude. It should permeate everything about us that you belong here, right? So it's one of my favorite slogans that we've adopted.
Speaker 4:A hundred percent. I'll just add this to that, jack I I prayed for years. God just make me a personal evangelist. And God is so creative and such a great sense of humor. He actually made my kids evangelists.
Speaker 4:And uh, uh one one of my uh kids, they're all, they're all wonderful. One's more outgoing than the other. He's walking through school and a kid went up to him. He's like hey, you know, your dad's a pastor and runs a church and christians think this, this, this and this. And my son didn't come back with. Well, here it is. He said oh, that's interesting, we have some different thoughts on that, but we'd love for you to come and find out what we believe. And he invited him and he came and he's still coming. That is an awesome win, so embedding that in the culture.
Speaker 4:And then just one last thought on that. There's a you know, there's all these social media groups and stuff. Putting stuff out there here was a win. I'm going to mention this in my sermon this weekend. And one of those social media groups. They're talking about churches in town and about our church. They said you know, they don't really get into politics, they really love Jesus and they do tell jokes about the Vikings, and so all that is true man, but let's be known as that man. They love Jesus in that place and you're welcome, wherever you're at, to come find him in this church.
Speaker 2:Right Amen.
Speaker 4:Unless you're a.
Speaker 3:Vikings fan.
Speaker 4:Unless you're a Vikings fan. Hey man, we are secure in our identity in Wisconsin right, we've got title town 110 of them We'll be okay, that's right.
Speaker 2:So funny I said that was the last question. I want to ask this one. This is a leadership podcast. What made Jesus the greatest leader of all time, despite the fact he was God?
Speaker 4:Here's something that I really have to grow into, tim, and you know anything that I feel like I'm doing. Well, that comes right along with confession. Right, I mean, I've made mistakes, I've blown it. But one of my favorite statements about leadership isn't one of mine, but it's one of Tim Keller's. And he said you know, if ever you watch a boxer, what does a boxer do? They keep their hands up, they protect themselves. And he said they keep their hands up, they protect themselves. And he said how does Jesus lead Arms wide open on the cross? And that is one of the most profound images of servant leadership that he led through holding on to his convictions, but loving and sacrificing and giving everything he had in a way where he might well had to have taken some blows and he did and we might have to take blows as well, but we follow a King who rose from the dead and there's hope and comfort in living that life of vulnerability.
Speaker 2:That's so good. He, who had every right to take the high place, took the low place Philippians 2, even to the point of death, and the Father elevated him, raised him up and invited, started a movement of people who said you can take everything, even my family and my life, and I'm the Lord's. I'm the Lord's and this message will not be stopped. It's too, you know, a lot of times our podcasts can get into what people think are like political things, and I'm sure there's other aspects to the culture of the LCMS that we're just kind of unaware of. We're just praying for greater evangelical fervor in all of our different contexts and we're praying ultimately that joy would be what fuels us for mission, because the joy of the Lord is our strength. I have to share something to close here.
Speaker 2:Kim Markshausen was a family friend. She knew me when I was a little kid and I don't know if you know Kim. She's a writer, author of she's going to be a guest on my own podcast here soon wrote a book called Weary. Anyway, I just got this picture somehow. We, my parents were family friends of theirs back in the day and this was one of our, one of our christmas cards. This would have been probably in 1980, 86 and I wanted to see yeah, I was seven and a half years old, you got to check out this style. If anybody's watching on, that's my fishing belly shirt.
Speaker 2:I had a belly shirt, you see my brother Isn't that a great childhood Fishing. You know socks and I've never really liked touching fish. The picture is me going fishing. I just want to be from my youngest years. I was a bad fisherman. Let's go fish for people in belly shirts and welcome all people, James. If people want to connect with you, how can they do so, brother?
Speaker 4:Yeah, drop me an email. Happy to set up a time for a conversation. My email is on my website, but it's jamesatmyhavenchurchorg. Happy to connect, happy to keep the dialogue going.
Speaker 2:Amen. This has been a great time. If you find this podcast helpful, hopefully in a uniting direction, a mission-oriented direction, please share it with your family, your friends, your neighbors, especially those that are in the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod who are praying for us to unite to reach people with the gospel. The fields are ripe under the harvest. The days are too short to do anything less. It's a good day. Go make it a great day. Wonderful work, jack. Thank you, james. God bless guys.
Speaker 1:Thanks, guys. You've been listening to Lead Time, a podcast of the Unite Leadership Collective. The ULC's mission is to collaborate with the local church to discover, develop and deploy leaders through biblical Lutheran doctrine and innovative methods To partner with us in this gospel message. Subscribe to our channel, then go to theuniteleadershiporg to create your free login for exclusive material and resources and then to explore ways in which you can sponsor an episode. Thanks for listening and stay tuned for next week's episode.