Lead Time
Lead Time
The Center for Missional and Pastoral Leadership: A Big Announcement
The rapid decline in active LCMS pastors—down 10% in just two years—underscores the need for new approaches to theological education that remain confessionally Lutheran while meeting modern ministry contexts.
Enter the Center for Missional and Pastoral Leadership:
Biblical. Reformational. Missional. Affordable. Global.
Visit https://cst.ilt.edu/cmpl/ or find the Center for Missional and Pastoral Leadership on Facebook for more information.
• Dr. Jeff Kloha's journey through seminary education to leading the Center for Missional and Pastoral Leadership
• Five foundations of CMPL: biblical, confessional, missional, affordable, and global
• Partnership with Institute of Lutheran Theology to offer full theological degrees at approximately $4,000 per year
• Addressing misconceptions that online education compromises theological quality
• Projected loss of nearly half of active LCMS pastors by 2030 (from 5,300 to 3,300)
• Creating pathways for congregations without pastors to develop leaders within their communities
• Missional focus on equipping leaders who engage their communities rather than just "sit" after Sunday services
• Supporting mission starts, bivocational leaders, and contexts not currently served by traditional models
• The biblical principle that the church is defined by gathering around Christ, not by clergy credentials
God, doubt, and proof walk into a podcast... it goes better than you’d expect!
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This is Lead Time.
Speaker 2:Welcome to Lead Time, tim Allman here. Jack Kalberg has the day off. I pray. The joy of Jesus is your strength. As we get to talk about what God is up to in the world Today, I get to do so with Reverend Dr Jeff Cloa. Let me tell you a little bit about him. He is the Dean of the Center for Missional and Pastoral Leadership, simple C-M-P-L Center for Missional and Pastoral Leadership simple C-M-P-L Center for Missional and Pastoral Leadership and the associate pastor at Our Savior in Arlington, virginia. And, to put a timestamp on this, we are recording this on Wednesday, march 5th. It is Ash Wednesday and I'm getting ready to preach later on at noon and 6.30. And Pastor Chloe is preaching later on tonight in his congregation at Our Savior. So good to be with you, jeff. How are you doing?
Speaker 3:brother. Hey, tim, great to see you. Thanks for having me on and I'm doing very well. Wayne, the pastor at Our Savior got sick so I'm filling in. Last minute they got the B team coming up, but excited to be able to proclaim the word tonight.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, why don't you tell us, give us? I'm doing as I just told you. I'm doing a little bit of a first person narrative as John the Baptist telling the Old Testament narrative, kind of poetically, creatively, and then leading up into John the Baptist story. So I'm excited to bring the word around that story. We're in Mark 1 and we're journeying through Mark through all of Lent. So what are you preaching on tonight? You said 2 Corinthians.
Speaker 3:Yeah, 2 Corinthians 5. And it's a beautiful passage about Paul and the suffering that comes from being marked as one who is in Christ. But also that confidence, right, that confidence that you know, no matter what happens, he's ambassadors of Christ, right.
Speaker 3:And the suffering that comes with it still results in glory, even I know this is not what you're supposed to say in Lent, but even still results in rejoicing. So you know, we don't. We, we repent and turn back to Christ every day, but we, we do so in the sure and certain hope of victory in Christ, at the resurrection and on the last day. So that's what I'm going to focus on tonight, and I pray that.
Speaker 2:God bless his word, amen, amen. Well, that's Romans 5, right, rejoice in your suffering. Suffering is perseverance, perseverance is character and character hope centers us. In the last day, as we talk about the center for missional and pastoral leadership, I think a lot of times and I get to talk to a lot of people here, a lot of different stories. It's an honor and some folks comment on the social media about like why are you doing this? You're dividing the church and you're not talking about the gospel and stuff. And people should know, like the entirety, the why behind this is more people hearing the gospel of Jesus Christ being saved, being baptized, brought into a right relationship with God, being centered around table and font Right. I mean the whole why around raising up leaders. It couldn't be any more evident, at least to me, that it is about advancing the gospel and I'm seeing the fruit of it in the test we've been running now for a number of years here in our context raising up leaders in a variety of different vocations, but all with a preaching teaching gift. And they want to have more theology, deeper Lutheran, confessional theology, poured into their head and into their heart to be the hands and feet of Jesus. And it's just, I would love to have that sort of an environment, that sort of an invitational environment. Not everyone's going to go down that path, but I think there are more in our congregations of elders who, especially if a pulpit is empty, could say hey, I would love some training to be able to bring the word and in time the congregation could rightly call that individual if the Lord leads them to do so. So we just are not in an environment right now in the LCMS where we're allowed, invited to run tests.
Speaker 2:I'm reading a book. I'll set it up this way. I'm reading a book right now called Leading Through. Dr Ben Haupt actually turned me on to this. Leading Through. It's a father and then a son and a daughter. They're actually LDS. Neither here nor there they're LDS. But we could read some good principles.
Speaker 1:This is just first article reality he was actually.
Speaker 2:I'm reaching out to this brother created in the image of God, maybe not a brother in the faith with us, for sure, but reaching out to him to try and get him on my podcast. But he gives. There's two different ways organizations can function, dr Kloel. One is leading over, power over people and there are some power over tendencies. And this can happen in families, this can happen in organizations, obviously, this can happen in not-for-profits and even the local church. So power over. But there's a better way and I would say the Jesus way it's leading through. So it's empowerment.
Speaker 2:They actually use that word a lot. It's empowerment, it's equipping. Does it get messy sometimes? Because you're really yeah for sure? So you got to kind of react to what is going on where correction needs to be made. And as I look at the New Testament, it's very evident that the Apostle Paul, by the Spirit's power, is a leading through type of leader starting churches, staying connected but trusting the Holy Spirit in those respective contexts. And so there's a juxtaposition right now, and there's always going to be this tension. Right, it's the hierarchy, it's the power. You could say it's the tower rather than the courtyard. Is that the metaphor that sometimes?
Speaker 1:gets used, or the square. There it is the square, the tower or the square you can look that up.
Speaker 2:And so we're just wrestling with. This is not about any one individual. We're just wrestling with some power over structures and some leading through structures, and I'm trusting that the Lord's going to guide us through according to his will. And again, this is all about evangelism. This is all about more people hearing and believing the gospel of Jesus Christ. So thank you for letting me have that kind of preamble as we head in. Why are you passionate about this topic, dr Cloy?
Speaker 3:Well, kind of related to what I've learned over my, I think it was 32 years ago.
Speaker 3:I was actually installed in my first call.
Speaker 3:So I've been at this a little while and I've learned over the years that the only real power that we have, if you want to use that word, is the power of the gospel, the power of the word of God. And if you're speaking the gospel, if you're teaching the word, then things happen, and if you're not, then things don't happen. So you know, that's what really gets me excited about this program. What we're doing now, it's just an extension of the ministry of the word that the church has been carrying out for centuries and centuries. And the more we stay focused on that, the more we stay focused on equipping people with the word of God to be able to teach it better, to understand it better, to be shaped and formed by it, to live that out in their daily lives and connect to their communities, whether they're lay people or teachers or missionaries or even pastors, whoever they are right. Here's another opportunity to bring the word of God to people so that it can do its work on their lives and so that they can impact our communities.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so amen. Why are you connected to the Center for Mission? I think some people would ask what gives you the right to kind of enter in Dr Klohe and offer your services toward this Center for Missional and Pastoral Leadership. Yeah well, yeah.
Speaker 1:Tell them your story yeah.
Speaker 3:So well, just a little story. So I'm a product of the LCM Astro. My dad was an elementary Lutheran school principal in the city of Chicago. So I grew up in that environment. You know urban congregation, very, very mixed and great ministry there. He did that for 40 years. Pretty amazing.
Speaker 3:And then I went to Luther North High School in Chicago. You know system kid and you know I was blessed at that time. We still had two years of Latin, three years of Latin in high school, two years of German. Got to Concordia College in Ann Arbor, which is sadly going away, but you know had Greek right away with the classical Greek, with Dr Heckert, and I was able to get a little bit of Hebrew not my favorite thing, but kept going with the Latin you know. So you know from there was sent, went to Concordia Seminary, st Louis, and you know great privilege Learned from some awesome teachers. You know people like Jim Veltz and Andy Bartelt and Bob Kolb and just you know, down the line, just amazing people. And I got to do a little bit of graduate work at CSL.
Speaker 3:And then my first call was back to an urban setting in Cleveland, ohio, gethsemane Lutheran Church, wonderful congregation still keep in touch with people there still carrying out good ministry in that context, very challenging environment. But served there for six years and then went back to St Louis to teach and did my PhD kind of in amongst that at the University of Leeds, looking at New Testament manuscripts Greek and Latin, primarily. So I taught at Concordia Seminary taught New Testament for 18 years. It was a real, real privilege. I learned a ton about the Word of God. I learned a ton about teaching. I learned a ton about the church, both how it works and how it doesn't work, you might say. And then I was provost at Concordia Seminary for four years, so I had the honor of leading an outstanding faculty.
Speaker 3:We went through a curriculum revision, so we tried to implement a lot of these things that we're still talking about today. Right, how do we prepare pastors for 21st century ministry? How do we connect them to context? How do they proclaim the gospel in a secular age? Right, what does that look like? How do they do that and how do they? How are they shaped as a person, in their family life, in their spiritual life, all those things to be effective servants of the word.
Speaker 3:And then 2017, I was asked to take on a role at the Museum of the Bible in Washington DC, which was quite an adventure, I'll only say, and I won't get a whole lot into that, but there was a lot of issues we had to deal with and in fact right now there's a series of BBC podcasts on the history of the Museum of the Bible, so I'm scattered throughout it and it's been interesting to relive a little of that history out it and it's been interesting to relive a little of that history. Anyway, and so over the past several months this opportunity to serve and teach came up, both at Our Savior here in Arlington, virginia, and through the center, and really the response has been, or the goal has been, to respond to the needs of congregations. When Dale Meyer was president of Concordia Seminary, he beat into us again and again and again we are here to serve congregations. Right, we are here to serve congregations and that might be through preparing pastors, it might be through continuing education, it might be through equipping lay people, it might be through video resources, all kinds of things. Through equipping lay people, it might be through video resources, all kinds of things. But if what we do does not help congregations, do the ministry of the word, do the kingdom of God work in their communities, then it's not worth doing right.
Speaker 3:And so over the years, even while I was at the museum, I was asked to do a lot of teaching in different programs, some for lay people, some bachelor's programs, some master's programs Got a little experience in the broader educational context and especially online learning. And then some conversations over the past you know, seven, eight months asking whether there's a way to get really good theology, really good biblical teaching, really good missional formation in an affordable, contextual way to a number of people who are not being served by current models. So we're kind of filling in gaps, if you will. We're not replacing traditional seminaries. I still think that could be an excellent program. I'm a product of residential education. I think that can be an excellent thing. I love teaching in a residential program, but there are a number of situations, congregations and potential servants of the Word who are simply not being served and who want to be formed in the Word to be better servants and leaders in their ministry contexts.
Speaker 3:So we started talking to a number of different organizations, programs, seminaries, online institutions and we connected with the Institute of Lutheran Theology, which has been around for about, I think, 17 years, maybe going on 18 years now, and Lutheran in their framework and traditional in terms of their confessional theology, their view of the authority of the Bible, that God is real and he actually like answers prayers. You know basic stuff like this. And they have a fully accredited program, actually a number of programs. They do a bachelor's program, master of ministry, master of arts, master of divinity, d-min, phd, and as we got talking with them it became clear that they have a lot to offer and also that the people involved in our little project have a lot to offer more broadly, especially in the area of practical theology, biblical theology, missional framework, a congregational focus, leadership.
Speaker 3:And so we brought together an outstanding team of theological educators, people like Ben Haupt, jim Marriott, eric Kerman, ty Jones, bob Newton, others I think that list of people over 70 years of teaching seminary courses in that group and so we developed courses and did this in conjunction with ILT and now we've kind of put this program together and really it's really kind of a synchronization, a collaboration.
Speaker 3:So really all the students at ILT will take our courses together and in, whether it's a master ministry or the MDiv program or certificate program, and then we're also adding in a formation path much like you have in the SMP program if you're familiar from the LCMS, where you work with the mentor, mentor groups, cohort model, all the stuff that really works well in SMP and we're launching formally in September and I got to say the response from students and congregations has been just amazing.
Speaker 3:I'm really surprised and gratified, very humbled, by the number of people who have been talking with her past several weeks and who are already applying to the program. So we're knocking this together and really excited that people just want to get. We're knocking this together and really excited that people just want to get three areas again Really good content, really good understanding of how to bring that content into their context and especially at an affordable cost. And those three areas are really key in the why and in the what we can talk about. But that's really where this came from how do we serve congregations who are not being served? And I could talk about a number of situations if you like, but that's kind of the basic how we got here.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you, um, you know I've had leaders go through every program of of that, the minus E, I I T that the LCMS offers.
Speaker 2:So LCMs, cmc, there we go, not LCMC, cmc, smp and the, the, the. And we have a current pastor who went through SMP and he actually is is taking, he's excited to interact with you guys and and maybe move toward NMDIV and I think a number of SMP guys I think it's 40 to 50% or so. I think that's about how far on the way they are to completing a Master of Divinity degree and what's to prohibit them if they finish that. And I guess the seminaries would like for them to go there, but they're embedded in their community already so there's just not a way for them in the current system to get a Master Divinity. So we'll have a number of those students and the cost is a real thing, dr Cloe. I mean SMP program is $40,000 to $50,000. And we're looking talk about the cost for Simple Center for Missional and Pastoral Leadership and talk about the cost for SMPL Center for Missional and Pastoral Leadership.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we've set a target and it's very doable to have a cost for an MDiv online program of $4,000 per year. Now we have some friends who are helping us with that and ILT already has a very lean model. They have a very low cost to educate and you know it works very well. So, yeah, to do to do an MDiv for about sixteen thousand dollars, whereas an SMP program, like you said, costs forty eight thousand dollars and you don't get a degree, it's, it's a. So you know that's that's been a key thing we've heard from from church leaders, congregations, potential students is the cost, and that was really among many things that drew us to ILT was the cost factor.
Speaker 2:So what do you say to someone who questions? You know it's all about life on life, face to face. You know interactions and the internet. Online you're going to compromise theology. I think there's this perception that if you do online learning you're going to be cheapening, shortening, lessening the theological rigor. You know, it's just not going to be as intense. What do you say to that person who says you can't really do online education well?
Speaker 3:Well, first, I mean, we can point to academic studies of online learning, and the first place I would point people is to a study by Auburn's Auburn Seminary which was called Not being there, and it was a thorough study of online distance education across institutions, and I encourage you to Google it, read it. It's a 50-page thorough study on student learning, both in residential and online programs, and they take three conclusions. Let me just read these quickly. First, it said online distance education is growing rapidly and expanding the pool of potential students for theological schools, so that's a plus. The second is probably the most important for this question, and that is let me read this Online distance education student outcomes are equal to or better than those of traditional residential classes. Now, let me say that again, this is across seminaries, right. Online student outcomes are equal to or better than those of traditional residential classes, right Now.
Speaker 3:We've been in this game of online education I shouldn't call it a game, but this field of online education for years. I mean, I've been teaching online courses for 15 years now and I've taught at BA, master's, different levels, even PhD level courses, certificate programs, and I can tell you people learn and are shaped by online distance education. So the claim that this is some kind of watered down system is simply not accurate. Either people have never taught in the program, in an online program, or never learned in an online program, or, frankly, taking the time to figure out how to do this well and I think it can be done very well, and I've seen examples firsthand of how that happens.
Speaker 2:What was the third outcome? What was the third outcome on that study? Yeah, yeah, I'm interested, yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and it's. Let's read it the integrated reality of digital life is quickly making the old divide between traditional and online classes and hybrid courses or programs which toggle between the two obsolete. Right? So this traditional divide between in-person and online is obsolete, and that's really what we're doing with our program. It's a combination of in-person. We'll do some of the seminars like we do at the SMP program, the cohort model, where people can form long bonds over a number of years.
Speaker 3:And you know, when I taught SMP, you didn't just turn on a computer and talk and turn it off. I always met with the students individually beforehand, got to know them on Zoom right, rolled into the program. I still get emails from people I had in SMP courses 10 years ago, you know. So it's this idea that there's no connection, that there's no formation, that there's no learning and that it's some kind of watered down system is just I'd say, just try it actually and try to be good at it and you'd see what might happen.
Speaker 3:The MDiv if you do the MDiv at ILT, you're still going to take Greek and Hebrew, you're still going to get Greek quizzes and it's not any kind of watered down program. The professors are all highly credentialed, experienced teachers. You're going to get an expert in your class live, right, you're not going to be watching videos on YouTube or something like that. You're going to have a fully credentialed, really good teacher, live every week and just like you're in a classroom. And in fact, when I was at the museum, I had a staff, my department, a curatorial department of around 50 people in my department and about a third of them were remote in Oklahoma and two thirds here in DC, and I was running a hybrid model over teams for eight years. Seven years, right. You can manage a complex organization remotely and get to know your team and develop relationships with them and encourage them and deal with problems. This is not a radical way to go. We've learned how to do this. It can be a very effective and very personal way to learn.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, thank you. Here's an interesting question. Who said you could do this in the LCMS? I've got that question before. Who gave you the right to raise up leaders? Tim, yeah, and I think behind that they think you're a narcissist. You're like you don't actually for anybody that thinks that you don't know me. You're not a part of our team, like I've been a pastor of the LCMS for 17 years.
Speaker 2:We have an amazing group of student learners. This is a humble, vibrant Lutheran community and it's just a part of our DNA to raise up leaders and Jesus said the apostles said 2 Timothy 2 said so like raise up elders, raise up overseers, like it seems to be pretty simple. It's like, over time, as an institution goes along and this is a real thing you kind of miss the core, the foundation of the whole thing, and you got to go back in many respects to your origin story, and that origin story is obviously Jesus, it's the whole thing. And you've got to go back in many respects to your origin story and that origin story is obviously Jesus, it's the early church and it's even the movement out of leaders through CFW, walther and our origin story. We don't have to get leaders from Germany, right, we can raise up more of our leaders locally. We're still the church.
Speaker 2:Wherever word and sacrament are, there is a church and the church. Wherever word and sacrament are there is, there is a church. And the church has a right to call, you know, to train and call their own pastors, and should we do that, Not frivolously, like intentionally deeply?
Speaker 2:rigorously, absolutely, yeah, for sure. So this is just responding to the need. So who gave you the right, dr Kloet, to be a part of this?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean you know, take a step back. I've been privileged to I like to put it this way I've been privileged to raise my family and get my daughters through college without debt, simply by teaching the Bible, and I see this simply as a continuation of that. And congregations ask me to speak and preach. Of course I'll go on Saturday, go do a workshop, preach on Sunday. Of course pastor's conferences get me to speak and preach. Of course I'll go on Saturday, go do a workshop, preach on Sunday. Of course pastors conferences, you get invited to speak, right.
Speaker 3:As we had this conversation and got in dialogue with ILT, they invited us to teach their courses. So great, I'm happy to teach courses. Right, I'm really excited actually to teach master's level courses again. And if you want to take the course, great. If you don't want to take the course, great. If you don't want to take the course, don't. I mean, it's that simple, right? If you want to get the kind of teaching and formation that we can do through this program, fantastic. If you don't want it, we're not requiring anything of anybody. We're not forcing anybody into the system.
Speaker 3:And I want to be clear. You know, ilt Institute of Lutheran Theology has been around a long time and they are not affiliated with any denomination, they do not certify for ministry in any church body, and so it's simply people who want that formation and then they go back to whatever church body they're in and go through their process. For, you know, whatever you call ordination or certification or roster status, and so that's simply what this program is. We are not offering certification in any bylaw system or any church body. Everybody has their own way to do that and we're not a part of that. So it really is simply a coalition of the willing, and if people sign up and want to take classes, I'll teach them. If they don't want to sign up and teach classes, I won't. I mean, it's really that simple, and I'm just really humbled that there's been a lot of interest in this and I think we'll be able to kind of again meet the needs in some gaps that are currently existing really across the country and, if we can pull it off, around the world. So let me give you a couple examples.
Speaker 3:Tim, there are a number of congregations new mission starts who are not yet congregation right. They don't have bylaws, they don't have a constitution, but they're trying to plant a community of gathering of people in Christ in their communities, right, and so they're essentially missionaries, right, they're evangelists and they're doing ministry of the word. They're not doing liturgy, yet they're not incorporated as a congregation. They're evangelists, right, and a number of church bodies are doing this. A number of congregations are doing this. They're doing a multi-site model. This is kind of what you're doing in some cases, right, and so what we can do is come alongside those situations and give those evangelists, those lay deacons whatever term people use, those missionaries, some really good biblical and theological education and some leadership, missional, practical skills that they can use in that setting and encourage them and strengthen them in that ministry. So they're not really pastors, and a lot of church bodies, including my own, does not have a roster category for that. You're either a teacher or a deaconess or a pastor. I mean, that's it. There's no missionary category.
Speaker 3:So what do you call these people who are ministers of the word? And anybody could do this, right, you know, anybody can speak the word. So how do we serve those situations? One example here in the DMV, the DC metro area, in the last year there were 19 new mission starts among Ethiopian Christians, 19. I'd be quite happy to help resource those leaders and missionaries to strengthen our ministries. Those leaders will never go to a residential program. They'll never go. They don't even know. Well, I'll just stop there. But can we help, support them, encourage them, maybe with one class, maybe with two classes, maybe with a master of ministry degree, maybe with an MDiv, whatever it might be. But if people want to get a good biblical, confessional, theological education, we can help them. That's all we're trying to do, that's good.
Speaker 2:Well, there's no roster status for evangelists. 100% agree. Do that's good? Well, there's no roster status for evangelists A hundred percent agree. Another, another one.
Speaker 2:Uh, there's no roster status for executive directors or someone who gets becomes, maybe ordained, but they have a business background and they want to merge an MBA, basically for organizational health and systems and structure, with with good Lutheran theology we don't recognize. I think that's a really strategic opportunity for us in the LCMS. And then, not to mention, you know how many vacant congregations do we have right now? Right, I mean, have you got any of those kinds? The data is shocking. And here's one of the struggles for me I just don't. And this is with all respect, friends. I mean, if you write for the Lutheran Witness, you write for whatever the reporter or anything like that, like we should honestly wrestle and I've seen some articles around the wrestle, you know.
Speaker 2:And well, there was a recent article about, kind of how some pastors are needing to serve, you know, dual and tri parishes as they're too small and can't afford a pastor. And it's very true and God bless those congregations for working together to have that one pastor. But it's kind of the tone of the conversation is like woe is me, like this is the worst, it's not the best. And while it is a struggle, I think it's a strategic opportunity for us in a lot of those smaller parishes to have this ordained pastor start to mentor more elders through a program like this, or if they're able to get into SMP through SMP, to be sure. So just talk about all the vacancies right now, Jeff, and the need is high and it's only going to get higher.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean the church body that we're members of on the roster, Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, and this is a stat that's been shared publicly. In 2022, there were 6,000 active pastors on the roster 6,000 active pastors. 2024, that was down to 5,300. So we lost 10% of our active clergy in two years. Yeah, and the projections, which include the current graduation rates from our two residential programs and all the other SMP other things, the projection is in 2030, there will be 3,300 active pastors. So we're going to lose close to half of our active pastors just on our own little church body in the next five years. And and uh, that, that To me, it's a concern.
Speaker 3:I would like to help. I don't know that we're going to be allowed to help because, you know we're not inside the system, but I really hope my church body can figure out ways to serve those congregations with word and sacrament ministry and to find creative, affordable, effective ways to do that, effective ways to do that, and if we can help spur that on even you know, in some way, that'd be great. If they want us to help with that, I'd be more than willing to help. But I'm deeply concerned about our brothers and sisters in Christ who simply won't have a shepherd. And that's not even counting new mission starts. I mean that's, you know, that's just assuming decline, without new congregations and new starts, which we have to be about, which has to be happening.
Speaker 3:Anyway, I can go on and on about this, but yeah, there's a desperate need, not just in our church body but across denominations, for really faithful and effective pastoral leadership, and I'd like to think we can come up with some really strong and, yes, creative ways to help serve those situations.
Speaker 2:And creative doesn't mean liberal, theologically.
Speaker 3:Well, no, yeah, exactly Not at all.
Speaker 2:We're not compromised. So there are some and you don't have to respond to this, maybe it's more of a statement than a question but some who say that and I think this is a very, very small fraction of the LCMS very, very small but it has been said publicly that if a congregation does not have a pastor, are they really the church? Do you have any response to that?
Speaker 3:Well, I'd read CFW Walther and this is exactly the question they had when they were. You know, the whole incident with Martin Stephan in the 1830s and that very question did they sin, you know? Did they go wrong? Can they still be church if they don't have a bishop? And Walther's answer, which is the biblical answer, of course, is is the church? Uh, is those who are gathered in christ, around his word, around his sacrament, and, and, uh, pastors are raised up from within that community to lead them. Um, uh, but that they are not defined by the fact of whether or not they have a pastor.
Speaker 3:And, uh, I, I think we've kind of lost a little bit of that picture. We've sort of institutionalized pastoral formation. And you know, I think there was a time and a place where the kind of franchise model that the residential programs operate were effective. It was good in the fifties and sixties. I think things are very different now that there was a time and a place for that and it still works in some settings. But to define church by having a four-year MDiv residential degree, I just can't see that that's a biblical or confessional definition. Is it a good thing? Yes, is it the only thing? I see no biblical or confessional warrant for saying that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I got you. What would you say if the statement comes out regarding a pastor needs to be full-time and paid? Full-time, like a pastor is worthy, a laborer is worthy of their hire, as the Apostle Paul said? I mean, I've quoted your research on the church in Corinth and the size of the church in Corinth 50 people, 150,000 people, something like that. There's no way the economic system is created as the gospel goes forward in those early years for full-time pay and benefits. Anything to say there, dr Kloer?
Speaker 3:Well, first you have to take the Apostle Paul out of the New Testament. You know he's pretty clear that he didn't take a salary and did it for the sake of the gospel. And look, I am fully supportive of the workers worthy of his hire. I mean, I absolutely agree with that and I'm committed to those who teach in this program. You know, I want to pay them what they're worth. I mean, they're outstanding theological educators and hopefully we can do that.
Speaker 3:But there are also situations where it's actually, I might say, more effective to be embedded in your community and to be serving from your community and taking that into your leadership as a pastor or teacher, in other words, rather than dropping somebody in and then asking a congregation to support a full salary. There are a number of situations, including mission starts, including kind of some of these rural areas where they just can't afford a full-time pastor and they're geographically remote, where there are some very talented, gifted, spirit-filled people who love the word and are able to teach the word. Why not raise them up? Why not give them that opportunity? And I think I've seen some things, even in the LCMS, encouraging people to be bivocational. I think that's their co-vocational, whatever word you want to use, and does that mean they're not a pastor if they're not in the Concordia plans or something?
Speaker 3:I don't think so. I mean for what it's worth. I have a call as an associate pastor and I mean all they do is pay me like public supply. It's not even you know so it's. If that's the case, then I'm not a pastor. I guess you'd say so yeah, again, there's. There's a model that worked in in our history as a church body, but does it still work today? Does it serve the congregations is the real question, and I think the evidence is pretty clear that it's not serving all situations.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, hey, let's get into, as we're coming down the homestretch here. Talk about the missional foundation for the Center for Missional and Pastoral Leadership. How this is grounded in the master narrative of God's mission to get all of his kids back.
Speaker 3:Yeah, this is a huge emphasis and in fact we put out our first official newsletter this week and that's what I wrote about in the newsletter. If you go to Facebook and look us up the Center for Missional and Pastoral Leadership but it's posted on the Facebook page now and you can sign up to subscribe for the newsletter there. But that's what I talk about. What do we mean by missional? And, by the way, the five kind of foundations for the program are biblical, reformational or confessional pick your term missional, affordable and global. So I'm going to talk about each of those five areas over the next five weeks. But missional doesn't mean we tack an evangelism course or a missiology course onto the academic program. You can do that, but that doesn't actually help you understand what God's mission in the world is. Right that Jesus Christ was sent into the world. Right To draw people to himself. Right that we have been sent into the world to draw people to Christ. Right by word and deed, so that they might see him. And so how do we help students, leaders, lay people, pastors, everyone see themselves and see their service as part of that mission of God? Right, how do you read the Lutheran confessions missiologically? I'm absolutely certain you can. I mean Apology of the Augsburg Confession, article 4, is missiology at its heart and Luther's Catechism right, the second article right that I might be his own live under him in his kingdom, serve him right and everlasting righteousness and assistance and blessing. Risen from the dead, lives and reigns to all eternity. It's kingdom of God language in our catechism right. It's all eternity. It's kingdom of God, language in our catechism right. It's all there. So to remind people of this heritage that we have and that even the New Testament letters themselves are not just, you know, in the gospels. They're not just sort of sources for extracting doctrines and then you put them in a book and you're done, but they're actually written to shape and form us to be you know in Christ and serving in the world. So how do you read the gospels? As missiological documents, as Jesus bringing the kingdom of God and empowering his disciples and ultimately his church to bring the kingdom of God in their communities.
Speaker 3:I just picked up a brand new book 2025. Love this book. Michael Gorman put it up on the screen. It's probably backwards, but theological, pastoral and missional commentary right. 2025, brand new book and I did my graduate work in First Corinthians.
Speaker 3:I've taught it any number of times. I've read in Greek 600 times or more, I don't know, and I don't think there's anything in here that I wouldn't have said. Read in Greek 600 times or more, I don't know, and I don't think there's anything in here that I wouldn't have said. But he does emphasize the missiological framework, right, and just read his preface and I quoted it in my newsletter, right, that this is a missiological book, not that it's for missionaries only, but that this text is written so that the church in Corinth, like you said, 50 people in a city of 100,000 in the middle of the first century in the Roman Empire, could be those upon whom the end of the ages has come. Right, and as often as you eat this bread and cup, you are proclaiming the Lord's death until he comes First. Corinthians 11. So they are a missiological community, and that's how Paul is identifying them and shaping them and encouraging them, and so that's what we're going to be teaching in the courses. Right, it's not rocket science, it's not radical. It's simply that God so loves the world that he sent his son and he calls people to faith in him, and he calls us to live in his kingdom, to love him and to serve our neighbor with the gospel. So that's a huge focus.
Speaker 3:And from the church leaders that I've been talking with over, frankly, over 20 years and more, I had one church leader put it this way to me. He said, jeff, we have a lot of and I hate to say this, I'm just kind of sharing but we have a lot of pastors who graduate from seminary. They get to their call and they see this sort of as a place to sit. They do the liturgy, they preach a sermon and then they go to their office and sit. Now, that's a part of pastoral work.
Speaker 3:But what this leader said is what we need, in my district at least, are pastors who do, pastors who get out of the chair after doing the liturgy, after preaching the sermon, and they go into their communities. They go into the hospitals, they go into the prisons, they go to the homes of their members right, they go to the coffee shops and they share this love of God in their communities. That the work of the church is to go out and then to gather around word and sacrament. They both go together. But a leader who simply does word and sacrament, constrained to that hour, hour and a half on Sunday morning. That's not I'm sorry, but that's not a biblical understanding of what it means to be church.
Speaker 2:Dr Cloa, this has been spectacular. You are a dear friend and partner in the gospel. You may not know this, but your class I don't know if it was my first class hermeneutics but it was one of my first classes and it's definitely the class that I remember the most because to me you were like this, because to me you were like this while you were passionate, obviously super articulate, just as everybody's experienced here, you obviously love Jesus, you love his mission. I could relate to you. Looking back, I don't know how the age difference I thought you were kind of old, but still cool as we interacted.
Speaker 3:Really old and probably still cool, you know, as we interacted.
Speaker 2:Really old and probably less cool, yeah, no, no. But I mean you. Your heart, your passion deeply formed me and has deeply formed many learners down through the years. And whoever takes part of the Center for Missional and Pastoral Leadership, being in Dr Cloa's class is a supreme, supreme privilege. So one, two last questions. One is first thanks.
Speaker 3:Thanks for that, and and uh that was one of the most fun classes because it was a way to like I hate to put it this way but tear people down and then build them up, right? So? So you think you know what you're doing when you read the Bible, but you really don't. So let's give you a better foundation, a Christ-centered foundation and a proclamation-focused foundation, and then build you up so you can keep going and by the way one of the courses that we redid for the center and I'll be teaching at ILT next year is an updated version of the hermeneutics course.
Speaker 3:I mean this is great stuff, so let's update it, let's do it, and that's a hugely fun class. So yeah, I'm really excited to be able to kind of bring that back to students. It's a lot of fun.
Speaker 2:It is and those classes are, you know, the Lutheran mind type classes, or you think you understand how to, rightly, you know, understand and preach and teach the Bible. Thank you, sir. May I have another Try again? Come back, come back again. Right, it's that kind of an experience. So would you work with our two seminaries, one of our seminaries if they said you know what, you have something going here. We don't know what it looks like for it to get integrated into our, but we want to continue the conversation. Would you continue the conversation, dr Kluwe?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean, obviously I'd be happy to. If anybody asks for help, I, you know, I would certainly make myself available and I'm sure my colleagues would as well. And and and frankly, I, I I'd be thrilled if they took, took a model like this and made it better. I mean, they, they've got resources there, they got good people there, they've got the history and the gravitas of some great institutions and you know, it'd be awesome if they picked this up and ran with it. So, yes, of course, I'd be happy to help and I have no, I pray for my alma mater, concordia Seminary, daily.
Speaker 3:Like I said, I taught there for 18 years. I have two degrees from that institution. I made lifelong friendships both among faculty and students at that institution. I rode bikes right, you can't see my bike, but here's my bike right here Rode bikes with a number of students, drank wine with a number of students. It's a great experience. So, yeah, I pray daily for Concordia Seminary and its leaders and its students and it's a great place. So, yeah, if, frankly, any institution would like some help, I'm happy to help.
Speaker 3:And what is the website for the Center for Missional and Pastoral Leadership? Yeah, two things. So you can go to our Facebook page, just look for Center for Missional and Pastoral Leadership and you can see actually a lot of good content at the best practices. A couple of weeks ago we had seven people involved in ILT and CMPL give short presentations about of how American Christianity and Western Christianity lost the Bible and how ILT seeks to bring it back and to keep it front and center, and that there is a biblical truth, an objective biblical truth, and that when you pray to a God he's there and he answers. Just watch that video if you want to know what ILT is all about Best 18 minutes I've ever seen on a topic. It's awesome. There's other faculty members who are presenting there.
Speaker 3:The other place you can go is to our website and right now we're shifting the domain but right now it's the center. So T-H-E-C-E-N-T-E-R. Dot info. I-n-f-o slash C-M-P-L. Or you can just Google Center for Missional and Pastoral Leadership and you'll see facts in there. You'll see a bit of description of the program, who's involved, what we're doing, why we're doing it, what we're not doing right and why we're not doing that so, and if you want to get ahold of me, you know, feel free. My email is jcloa at iltedu. Send me a note. I'm happy to talk, share what we're doing, what we're not doing and see if we might be able to help you and your congregation, your ministry, out.
Speaker 3:Whether you're a lay person, somebody who wants to be formed into a servant of the word. You know, love to partner with you, Amen.
Speaker 2:This is lead time If you have different ideas and actually want to come on and have a conversation with me and Jack most of the time around how the church can move out in mission and remain faithful to our confession. If you've got different ideas and and or this this kind of conversation makes you, makes you anxious or angry. We're not trying to create another church body that some people you know may have said that you're trying to create a whole nother. No, we're just responding to the needs of local churches and we're inviting. It is a spirit of invitation rather than coercion or power, and we're inviting anyone that wants to hear more to hear more and to learn as we go on mission to make Jesus known. Please like, subscribe, comment. Wherever it is you take in lead time. It's a good day. Go and make it a great day. Jesus smiles over you. Feel free to smile back, dr Kaloa. Thank you so much, brother.
Speaker 3:All right, thanks, tim, so much and blessings on your preaching tonight and your journey through these 40 days to the cross and the empty tomb.
Speaker 2:Really excited to have this journey again. Same to you, brother.
Speaker 1:Peace the Lord You've been listening to Lead Time, a podcast of the Unite Leadership Collective. The ULC's mission is to collaborate with the local church to discover, develop and deploy leaders through biblical Lutheran doctrine and innovative methods To partner with us in this gospel message. Subscribe to our channel, then go to theuniteleadershiporg to create your free login for exclusive material and resources and then to explore ways in which you can sponsor an episode. Thanks for listening and stay tuned for next week's episode.