Lead Time
Lead Time
The Lost Art of Listening with Pastor Brian Davies
Listening may be the most powerful yet underutilized tool in our spiritual arsenal, particularly in a culture that prizes quick responses and winning arguments over deep understanding.
Grab Pastor Brian Davies' new book!
• Pastor Brian Davies introduces his book "Captivating Conversations: How Christians Can Reclaim the Lost Art of Listening"
• Jesus modeled asking questions rather than simply giving answers, demonstrating that transformation happens through invitation, not instruction
• The "OCI" approach—being Open, Curious, and Inquisitive—creates space for genuine dialogue and relationship
• Leadership should mirror Christ's approach of "leading through" rather than "leading over" people
• Asking good questions helps us understand the stories behind people's positions and creates bridges for meaningful conversation
• When Christians focus more on ecclesiology than mission, we lose perspective on what matters most
• Our posture toward fellow believers should prioritize unity in mission over critiquing differences in practice
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This is Lead Time.
Speaker 2:Welcome to Lead Time. Tim Allman here with Jack Kauberg. Jack, loving life dude Absolutely.
Speaker 3:Having a great time today.
Speaker 2:These are beautiful full days, the Lord you know. We're just getting out of a meeting for generosity and hearing neat stories about mission and people falling more in love with Jesus. We just from a Christ Greenfield perspective. We just got clearance from the town of Gilbert to put up our new digital sign.
Speaker 3:New LED sign. Yes, New LED. Yeah, we were super pumped about that. We had to do a study on how light would reflect off the ground and our vendors like I've never heard of that before.
Speaker 2:So, goofy, so goofy. And then we're also coming off of Ash Wednesday and I got to preach a of times yesterday at Ash Wednesday and it felt our, our evening service, our noon service, is actually very full, but the evening service was packed to the brim. We may have to think about doing two Ash Wednesday evening services. So yeah, I said full, just like just like when.
Speaker 2:I don't know what you think about President Trump and his speech the other day. People have a variety of perspectives, but I think he's funny if you have the right lens to kind of see him, because when he comes back and says we're back, baby, you know, it's like Christ Greenfield, we're back, we're back from COVID. Like let's not do that again, you know, let's keep people in the house of the Lord and listen deeply to one another.
Speaker 3:Jack, what do you want to say to Trump?
Speaker 1:This is the best Ash.
Speaker 2:Wednesday ever Never experienced anything like it. His hyperbole is like over the top. This is the greatest church you've never seen.
Speaker 4:There's never been a church. We are 90 seconds into this. We're already going down this road, man.
Speaker 2:Why not? Why not? Yeah, all right, so let me introduce you to our guest, brian Davies. He is a pastor at Lord of Glory Lutheran Church in Grayslake, illinois, and a chaplain. This is cool for Grayslake Fire Department and Round Lake Fire Protection District. Love that you're out in the community like that. Brother Davies graduated from Concordia River Forest, now Concordia university, chicago, played football there. He was a guard four years. You didn't miss a star, did you? You?
Speaker 4:were healthy. Pretty much I was. Thank you to God, I was every snap.
Speaker 2:That is hardcore dude. And he studied communications, biblical languages. He went on to earn his MDiv. He's mastered the divine no, the divine has mastered him At Concordia Seminary, st Louis, he and his wife Beth. They have three children Kate, megan and Luke, and I just heard that his daughter I'll let you drop it, your daughter is a really good senior softball or junior softball player that just has made her commitment. Where's she going to play?
Speaker 4:He's going to play at Loyola University in Chicago.
Speaker 2:Top 100 program in the country.
Speaker 4:And having a lot of fun. She's still got her junior year and senior year to enjoy. And the other day she said to us I kind of have senioritis and I'm like, no, you don't, You're a junior.
Speaker 1:You've got a lot of work still to do, but, wendy, already knows where she's going, but the coach has been awesome to her and it's a very generous offer and a great opportunity for her.
Speaker 2:Good for her. He also is the author of Connected to Christ. Overcoming Isolation Through Community. Was that with Concordia Publishing?
Speaker 4:House. It was yeah, it broke out right. It was released right around COVID. I wrote a book about finding community in the midst of COVID, which is crazy to think about.
Speaker 2:Wow, so you were writing something on overcoming isolation before COVID came out. I was, yeah, okay. Well, yeah, we needed help with that. We definitely do, and today we're going to be talking about the book Captivating Conversations how Christians Can Reclaim the Lost Art of Listening. It just recently came out. It's published also by CPH. So how are you doing, brian? Thanks for spending time with us, buddy.
Speaker 4:I'm awesome, I appreciate the opportunity to visit with you guys and thanks for the work that you guys are doing, both in your local ministry and also just your work of elevating really important conversations and, as the author of a book that highlights the importance of conversations, right, I value them and I think we need more long form ones. We need less tweet and attacks and we need more sitting, listening and asking questions, and I think we can learn a lot from Jesus approach.
Speaker 3:That's a fact. There's your clip right there for Instagram.
Speaker 2:There you go yeah, more, more facts, and the fact is we need relationship, and we need to build deeper trust over time with relationship, and so let's get into this. How is listening? You know, everybody wants to speak, everybody wants to tweet, everybody wants to get their word out. How is listening, though? And as we even talk about this, this is like the main reason I like podcasts is because I think people are fascinating and I want to ask them questions and listen to them and grow, grow with them. But how is it? A lost art you mentioned this a lost art, even for Christians, brian. Let's start there.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and I would affirm you, tim, for taking that posture of curiosity right. Unfortunately, that is absolutely a lost art. Right, unfortunately, that is absolutely a lost art. We are in a culture where we prejudge one another based on the camp that they're in or their appearance, or all the ways in which we judge one another.
Speaker 4:And we don't take the time to actually hey, what leads you to come to that conclusion? Right, and I observed it in culture. I think you guys have observed it, probably all of your listeners and those watching on YouTube have observed it and we're tired of it. We don't want to live in that world anymore. It is not a good world to live in. And the reality is, as you survey the landscape of the approach Jesus takes, dude, if there was ever anyone who should just come down and tell people answers, it's Jesus. But the reality is, the approach he takes is comes down to earth and sit, listens and ask questions of people for that very purpose, cause he knows that's really what's going to lead to transformation of human hearts.
Speaker 2:There's no doubt. What is it about the West Like you do a little bit of writing here, the culture in the West. That's most challenging, especially as it relates to listening. And what is our hope right now as we look at culture starting to change? I think there's. I'll just tee it up this way. I think there's greater evidence and I think, anecdotally and there may be some surveys people could find where people's hearts are open toward mystery, toward spirituality, toward a God who wants to speak to them and they in turn, listen. They just don't know he's in the person and form of Jesus. So how is it challenging here in the West to listen? What are some of those biggest challenges, brian?
Speaker 4:Well, first of all, I think what's modeled for us by our leaders, by what we see on TV and cable, to new shows and and quick bites on Instagram or social media, are hot takes. And how do you win an argument and how do you best the other person? And the reality is that is the least successful approach in human relationships, right? So if you're saying like, hey, I had this conversation and then I said something and then they had nothing to say you know people brag about that and my first thought is that's really unfortunate Then that means that stopped the conversation.
Speaker 4:Isn't the goal to get to resolution? Isn't the goal to get to a deeper understanding? If you said something that stopped the conversation, isn't the goal to get to resolution? Isn't the goal to get to a deeper understanding? If you said something that stopped the conversation, that's not a win, that's a loss. So I think, unfortunately, all these things are getting modeled for us that we've got to, we've got to beat the other person when reality, the win comes when we sit down and get to know one another better and get to know each other's personal histories, and then where do we find common ground?
Speaker 3:That's the. I mean, that's the caption that you see on social media See this person getting owned or see this person getting shut down right, exactly.
Speaker 4:And so, unfortunately, we see that and we think, oh so, that's what we're supposed to do, right, that's what I'm supposed to do, I got to win, I got to win. And I think, unfortunately, the approach that gets the most likes is the approach that is the least successful. You know, around the dinner table or in human relationships or in the conference room at the church, I mean, like, if you're trying to beat the other person, you've lost.
Speaker 2:Well, it evidently doesn't work. There's a lot of study sociologically on developmental stages in children and between zero and three. You know we're hyper narcissists. Everything is about me and they say something clicks around three or four, as kids start to play with one another. Oh, I can't hit, I can't bite. You know this makes people not like me.
Speaker 1:And.
Speaker 2:I need, I need, I need people.
Speaker 2:So one of my favorite Jordan Peterson quotes from a book I think it was 12 Rules or something like that. But don't let your kids do anything that makes you dislike them. So why and it's true, like we don't do that here and I think sometimes we've not wanted as as adults with our kids or who really likes to tell that person you know you can't. That behavior is socially inappropriate, like that's uncomfortable. No one really likes to do that.
Speaker 2:But we've got to be close enough and this is where it gets to leadership. Right, you have to have other people that are close enough to you. Do you realize how you came across right now? And for me, learning has been Tim. You can be intense, you know, and that intensity can build a wall for other people to not connect to you. So you need and you're a bigger guy, you're a football guy, right, and I'm not like huge, but even like you're when you're with people, you need to be physical posture, like you got to pay attention to your EQ, the way you connect to people and the way you do.
Speaker 2:You have to ask more questions rather than talk. Let me like you've been a longtime pastor. I've been a longtime pastor. We can't pastor for a length of time apart from developing curiosity for what's going on in the lives of our people. Right, If I just come in and dictate and just tell, that's not gonna work. If I invite and ask questions over time, that works. That builds team. That builds trust. Anything more to say about pastoral ministry and listening?
Speaker 4:Brian, a lot actually. And first I'll just say, you know, remember the Lord Jesus Christ, who obviously comes down to earth and we see his earthly ministry. He's the one who created us, so he knows human nature. He knows that the best approach in interpersonal relationships is gonna be community, is gonna be asking questions, sitting, listening and letting people process. So it would make sense that kind of the architect of us, the creator of us, would take that approach because he knows it's the most successful.
Speaker 4:And I would say, tim, to your point about pastoral ministry, and I would make this too in terms of any vocation that your listeners and viewers are in. It just makes life a lot more interesting. Like, for example, like you know, I'll go have a breakfast meeting with someone in our congregation who's the AD athletic director of a very large high school, suburban high school. You know, before I would listen to podcasts or something on the way there, but I started a little while ago, using that drive time to think of, hey, what can I learn from this person if I'm going to have breakfast with them, right? So then I started going into those moments being like, hey, well, this person is a leader. This person probably disappoints people, like I do sometimes. So I started using those moments to be like hey, tell me about your vocation and problems I have I'm having, and pick his brain a little bit and do you think that meeting then is a lot more interesting for him? Absolutely Right.
Speaker 4:Cause he gets to talk about his vocation and he feels listened to, he feels heard, he feels valued. So I think it makes it makes the role of the listener a lot more interesting, but also it also makes the relationship a lot stronger with the person you're trying to reach.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, and we're talking all the time. They have to listen to us for, you know, 20 minutes a week or whatever, they hear all this stuff. You know that's one of the weird things about ministry is there's a lot of people that know way more about me than I know about them, and so I guess, to land it, you can't know everybody deeply, but do you have pastor some and I don't care if your church is a hundred people or you know 10,000 people, whatever Do you have some sort of a rhythm for going out to get lunch and coffee and just not just with your top donors, but like as the Lord brings someone to mind? I interacted with a brother.
Speaker 2:I was in the choir for two festival choirs in our congregation. It was so fun. Our music director is so amazing and I didn't have to do anything else but just be a part of the choir. I sat next to Norm the entire time, right, and I was like Norm. I heard about his son, who's a pastor up in Nevada, and I was like Norm I'd love to get lunch with you sometime.
Speaker 2:And what do you know, today popped up on my calendar. I told Don, hey, could you get this scheduled? This was like a month ago or so, norm popped up on my calendar. Today Cindy, his wife showed up. We had Culver's. I listened to their story, which was a random choice. They wanted to go to Culver's and then they got which I never eat dessert at like noon and he brought me out this dessert but we just had a. I did eat it. I not all of it, but I did eat it. Uh, cause it would have been disrespectful not to um, but man, I just listened to them for like an hour and it was the best it is the best.
Speaker 2:What other time would I have had Like, get me and this is maybe where a bridge of love and care and understanding, pastoral visitation, may be a lost art right. Get into people's homes and if they don't want you in their home, go out for coffee or lunch with them. You should have budgeted resources toward that end. Anything more to add toward getting to know your people well, brian?
Speaker 4:Yeah, I would say, you know, that's a part of my vocation as a parish pastor and probably many of the folks that are listening who had that vocation, my vocation as a parish pastor, and probably many of the folks that are listening who had that vocation, like we see our shut ins right Folks, folks not able to get out a lot, and for a part of my ministry those were kind of perfunctory, like, hey, just do the thing, do a devotion, you know, talk about the weather.
Speaker 4:And then I said, holy cow, here I am, I get to sit for 45 minutes with someone who's 93 years old. Do you think I could ask some questions that might I might learn something from them? And so I started asking this question hey, you've probably lived through times in our culture that were very divided. Is this the most divided time you've ever seen our culture? Well, if you ask people who are in their nineties, they lived through some pretty divisive times and they have a lot to say about it. And I find like, hey, all of a sudden those 45 minutes go like that and they feel heard, they feel listened to, they feel valued and this it makes ministry a lot more interesting.
Speaker 2:Yes, so good. So let's get into Jesus. How does Jesus help us become better listeners? Tell some stories about Jesus. I know there's data out there about how many questions Jesus realized holy cow. Like this stuff is actually modeled in the Bible for us, right.
Speaker 4:And so I kind of backdoored into like, hey, if you read the Gospels, the ministry of Jesus Christ, through the lens of the approach he takes in interpersonal relationships, once you see it, you will not unsee it.
Speaker 4:He asks a ridiculous amount of questions and it comes from the very beginning of his ministry, luke chapter two. Jesus is left behind in the temple as a 12 year old boy and Luke records for us that he's found there sitting, listening and asking questions. And the rest of his ministry is marked by asking people questions that oftentimes he already knows the answers to, because he knows that the act of asking that question and inviting them into reflection is going to lead them into the breakthrough that he wants to see happen in them. And so oftentimes we take the approach of okay, I want to move this person from here to there, I just need to tell them what to do, or tell them what to think. The reality is that is the least successful, statistically speaking, approach to take. If you want to change someone's mind, the least successful approach is to tell them what to do or think, and Jesus knew it.
Speaker 3:Brian, I was just reading in a small group, mark, the story of the woman with the bleeding problem touches touches jesus's garments, yeah, and she's healed and he says who touched me? Like he knew who touched did that, but that question was important. I love that one. Having a confession of faith from her is what it was right he gave her. He gave her an opportunity to confess her faith and then he said your faith is what healed you right.
Speaker 4:Isn't that great, yeah. And once you start to look for those moments, you never. You see them all over the place, the feeding of the 5,000. He even asked them well, how much do you have? You know? Meaning, I actually want you to take inventory of this so that you can look back and be like holy cow, how did this happen? From this and the question, the mere question, says I actually want to involve you in the work that I'm just about to do. I can do it on my own, but I want to use what you have and what you're going to bring and I want you to take inventory of it before you do it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so let's get into the specific questions. What are the questions that are central to Jesus ministry? You got to end chapter four.
Speaker 4:Oh boy, there's a lot of those, but I would go to like. He asks Peter, who do you say that I am Right? What, what, what, what? First he starts with you know what's the word on the street about me? Who do people say that I am? Which is a question he, of course, would have known, like he would have if anyone knew the word on the street. It would have been Jesus, for many reasons. But then he says well, who do you? What about you? Who do you say that I am?
Speaker 2:Which I think is a let's pause on that really quick. Was Jesus concerned about brand His brand, because that's a brand question. What are people saying about me? What's my personal brand right now? And it was a mixed. His success was mixed, the reviews were very mixed. The Pharisees were not excited. Is he just a prophet? Obviously, they kind of knew. So yeah, what other questions?
Speaker 4:Yeah, I think back to that, like one of the functions of that question was to invite the disciples to think okay, well, what are people saying? You know, like, what is the word on the street and what do I make of that? And then it comes down to well, what about you? Who do you say that I am? And then I think other times it's um, I always like the one, um, someone else who has a physical ailment, and Jesus asks what do you want me to do for you? You know which I mean? Obviously, if you had the philosophical, I mean that is so top of mind for you, it's everything right. But to Jack's point, it's like it invites that person to reflect on what do I really want to see change? What do I really want to see happen in my life?
Speaker 3:I think pastoral care is so interwoven with questions, right? People will ask a question A lot of times. The best way is to ask a question back to understand what is the real heart of the question, right, why do you want to know? Right, that's something that they ask pastors to ask that question why do you want to know that answer? Because, depending on why you want to know, that's the right way to approach the answer.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and I've personally found that, Jack, that is a good question. Why do you want to know I found that that can be a little off-putting Like why?
Speaker 3:do you want to?
Speaker 4:know Right, and so, like I prefer the simple hey, could you tell me more about that? Yeah, I want to make sure I understand exactly kind of what you're getting at. Tell me more about what? Tell me more about that Because people actually like to talk. Statistics reveal that if you're in a conversation with somebody and you're kind of taking the posture of curiosity toward them and they get to talk about themselves, the same hormones are released within them as when they're eating a delicious steak and wine dinner Something firing in your brain like satisfaction joy. So when you ask a question like hey, tell me more, I actually want to hear from you.
Speaker 3:That's like oh really yes. Yeah, Tell me more is an awesome question. It's actually any type of conversation. You can just have it a better conversation by saying tell me more.
Speaker 4:A hundred percent, because oftentimes and we've seen this in interpersonal relationships the first thing is rarely the thing right, like you've got to get underneath the thing that's presented to get to the real truth, right? So can you maybe, as simple as it feels like there's a little more that's underneath that? Could you tell me more about that?
Speaker 2:That's so good. What is the role of listening in difficult conversations? We talk about difficult conversations a lot Intent impact, maintaining curiosity and things like that. What is the role of questions, though, Because you guys are kind of hinting at it a little bit more? Any more words of wisdom as it relates to the conversation? You'd rather not have, but you know you need to have.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I did a whole chapter in the book about listening in the midst of conflict, and the first thing, the first move I would make would be and Tim and Jack, you guys have done a phenomenal job with that on this podcast, which is normalizing healthy conversations where there's disagreement Is it okay for us, as Christians, to have a little bit of a disagreement about something? The answer is yes, right, and I think there's someone I know.
Speaker 3:Try to find a church where that doesn't exist. Exactly Right. So how do you do it healthy, right?
Speaker 4:There's a gentleman I know by the name of Les Stroh. Maybe you know him.
Speaker 4:He's in the Lutheran leadership world. His quote, which I love, is um, conflict is inevitable, enemies are optional. Um, which I absolutely love, and it just like, from the beginning, let's normalize that, hey, we're going to just see things different. Um, um, and just off the bat say that doesn't mean that we can't be friends, it doesn't mean that we can't be, um, fellow sisters and brothers in Christ. But let's just say, hey, we're going to see this, we're going to see this thing differently.
Speaker 4:So that would be step one. And then number two would be when we get this into the book, like ask questions so you get to the bottom of what's actually leading the person to think or act in that certain way. Is we make preconceived notions about the other person's position or opinion based on previous experiences we've had with people who have that position or opinion which may not be applicable to that person at all, and so we're way better off getting underneath what it is that's leading them to think or act that way. That can actually get them to. Oh, so that's your concern about this initiative, or that's your concern about this possible change that we're thinking about making Now. I understand that Now I can adequately address it, but until you get underneath, and the best way to get underneath is through questions.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm thinking of conversations around difference of opinion. We talk formation on here all the time. I could do a better job of trying to get to know the story of why the person so deeply believes in residential only being the gold standard. And there's a lot of people in our world, not just seminary presidents, there's a lot of people who really, really believe that and it's probably because, like me, they were touched, changed. That encounter with Jesus, connected to a professor, face-to-face in a classroom, radically shifted their point of view. I mean, this is best construction and you just want more people to have that sort of view. And I mean this is best construction and you just want more people to have that sort of experience. And why wouldn't you want that same experience, right? But it's probably some sort of an emotional connection to that space, right? And we're all enfleshed, creatured, embodied people that develop culture, systems and structures that are really really helpful and and it centers us, it centers us in in our relationship with God. Maybe another what is it about? The liturgy? And we're talking like all of the liturgy smells bells, like all of all, all of it, like the depth of the Lutheran liturgy.
Speaker 2:For those of us who disagree, well, it's probably because you had an amazing encounter. It's probably because you came out of Jack, like your story. You came out of a faith experience that really left you wounded and wondering where God is, and now you experience the mystery, the gravity, the reverential presence of God. You're just wholly struck by it and you just want other people to experience that. I think in those two like there's stories connected to that. So why can't we just connect and then to land the plane?
Speaker 2:As it relates to contemporary or a modern worship experience, they met Jesus deeply and there was a drum on the stage right and they just want more people to know. It's all story. So how do we ask enough questions to get behind the scenes? It's not just about strategy, structure, institutional preservation. Listen, because I get to share my story. I think a lot of people know why I like both styles of worship and why now. So let me get back to the conversation on formation right, the reason I'm so passionate about it is because I have a story being in context where a lot of leaders are being raised up, and why wouldn't everybody want to have a whole bunch of leaders raised up? So it's all story, jack. Any follow-up to that?
Speaker 3:No, I mean really, what we're boiling it down to is can we be charitable in our disagreement and realize that and I have to say this about myself it's like there's a positive reason. There may be a flip side to it too. That may be an unhealthy reason. There's a positive reason. There may be a flip side to it, too. That may be an unhealthy reason. Both of those could be true.
Speaker 3:At the same time, when I take a very strong position on something right, a truth, and maybe because I'm holding on to that truth so much, maybe something blinders that I'm wearing around that topic, I want to be totally honest and say, like we're talking about issues of orthodoxy and innovation. You know really well-established ways of doing things and innovative ways of doing things, and in that process, we could be overly narrow in how we think or we could be reckless in how we can think, and those are two things like we have to be totally honest that that conversation, that's a space that we're exploring right now, and you can have really good intentions or really bad intentions about trying to be overly restrictive, overly broad, right, we don't want to be reckless, right, we also don't want to be narrow. So, like this is a tough conversation. It's messy.
Speaker 3:Conversations around this is really messy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it is, and story is what gets us more to the middle. That conversations around this is really messy, yeah, it is, and story is what gets us more to the middle.
Speaker 4:That's right. Story is what gets us to the table. Brian, go ahead. Yeah, tim, I would just affirm you for that observation about yourself. Like, hey, I could use more questions, right. I would observe, like, having seen you do your work pretty publicly on this podcast, like you are working hard at it, you are trying to model it and I see it, and I think other people see it I think there's room for all of us to make that move. I think, instinctively, we come off watching, you know, political news soundbites where people just think if I say it louder or more emotionally tied, it's going to work. But but you know it never does Right. So when you're, my trick is like when my instinct tells me to just say it again or say it more passionately, I totally go the other way and say what question can I ask in this moment that's actually going to possibly lead to a breakthrough? Have you guys read Adam Grant's book Think Again?
Speaker 2:No, I have not. I know Adam Grant though.
Speaker 4:It was a game changer for me. And really he talks about completely secular thinking. How do you move people from one position to another, like, how do you take someone who's entrenched in this position Could be? One chapter he does talks about vaccine hesitancy. Another chapter he does talks about you know, I'm from the East Coast, so I know this rivalry. But Yankees fans and Red Sox fans they hate each other. And so he talks about how can you try to convince a Yankees fan to say something positive about a Red Sox fan? Can you try to convince a Yankees fan to say something positive about a Red Sox fan?
Speaker 4:And the whole tenet of the book is basically like telling people what to do or think is the least successful approach. You know, direct instruction does not work. Telling people the facts doesn't work, but really getting underneath, tim to your point, the story, the emotion, the why you know, and then inviting people to ask you know, is it possible that the same emotional connection you have to residential theological education, someone else could possibly have to a more local experience? Do you think that's possible, right? And then you get the other person really to be like you know. Actually I think it could be possible, right? Well then, all of a sudden, you've kind of, you've moved a little closer to the center, because you've heard each other's stories and you validate each other.
Speaker 2:It is very evident that power does not work in my life, like, the more I try to coerce, and every leader you got to call it out, like every leader has the potential to try to use force to make things work Right. And it just it. Invitation, it's the power of invitation, and even the invitation toward, toward change, like Jesus, is a very invitational. God made man come and follow me Like there was no force, there was no compulsion. It's just like okay, we've seen some good things. Oh, here's this rabbi, let's come and come into life.
Speaker 2:No one was holding force over the disciples and the other 70 to follow Jesus around. There was an invitation. He was attractive, right, Jack?
Speaker 3:Well, the Reformation spread because of force. Right, like, hey, we want to have conversations about rightly understanding Scripture and getting back to a, you know, a more grace oriented understanding of like no, we're not having that conversation. It was force. And because what was the response from that? It I mean it it didn't have the impact that they thought it was going to have. Right, by being forceful in their approach.
Speaker 4:Tim, it's actually referred to as the paradox of power, that the more you push, the more people push back. And I mean, like I am I'm a type A, you guys probably, I'm guessing you are as well Like when I feel like somebody is trying to back me into a corner, that's actually where I put up my that's, where I put up my defenses, that's where I'm least likely to change. But when I get asked to reconsider my positions, or invited to think again, or invited to see things differently or hear stories about it, that's when really transformation happens.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly. So you threw one book out. I'll throw one right back at you, leading Through by the Clark family. It's actually an LDS family, latter-day Saints. He was the grandpa or the father, I guess was a part of the quorum of 70. I looked him up online. He was for like four years.
Speaker 2:But the book is pure. He's a Harvard Business Weekly type review, just like a grant book. It's pure gold. And what they do?
Speaker 2:They've done a lot of research. Harvard Business School has done a lot of research on the characteristics of CEOs and companies that try to leverage power over people Heavy hierarchy, lots of rules, lots of policies and all this kind of stuff over and against the leaders that have a leading through, people that make space at the table. And and it is very evident in the corporate world and in the not-for-profit I would say church world too that those who make the choice, by the spirit's power, to lead through with people, rather than using power over people, experience a lot more. And success is probably not the right word, it would be joy, like there's a family, there's love, I'm known, I'm seen and, frankly, the word you know, it's lonely at the top. I don't really, even though we have structure, there's order, we have policies, governance, all that kind of stuff right, because we're leading through people, with people.
Speaker 2:I don't feel I don't feel lonely. You know our pastoral team, we're not. I don't feel lonely, our pastoral team. I don't leverage senior pastor here. That's not really in our vernacular. I'll use it if it's helpful. Very rarely is. It depends the setting that you're in. And so I'm just one pastor among many pastors here and we all have different responsibilities, different giftings, and we're doing it together. Any kind of word toward that paradigm between leading over power, over over, rather than leading through Brian.
Speaker 4:Yeah, it makes me happy to hear you say that, Tim, that like, hey, I don't feel lonely because you're in the minority, According to the sixes about clergy, that that role feels very lonely for many people feels very lonely for many people, and if you're feeling that way anyone who's listening, watching I would invite you to think like, what could I? What could I redo or rethink so that I don't get into that trap of feeling so lonely Because, to your point, Tim, it shouldn't feel that way. You should feel like you're leading with others and that you have people in your corner. I am and I'm the only clergy person on our staff at our church, but I do not feel alone. I feel like I'm on a team of people all using our gifts in different ways, all for the glory of God and the advancement of the kingdom and reaching our community, and that feels really good and that's the way it should feel.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Jack, team building is the antidote to loneliness, it's kind of the way it goes, but also, like you said, tim, having a um, a power-driven approach towards the team. So there is always a responsibility, like an administrative responsibility, to, you know, veto things from time to time and set guardrails. But also, how do you create freedom and the ability for people to be creative and to work in their, you know, have a authority and autonomy where appropriate to be able to actually live out their gifting? So there's sometimes there's a little bit of a balancing act on that, but the key to not be alone is to is to not lead authoritatively or authoritarianly right With a team, so that they see you as part of the team, not somebody that Lords over the team. Right, that right. I think that's the key thing.
Speaker 2:Well, that's the balance that Jesus, that's the cord that Jesus perfectly struck. It was very evident that he had authority, All authority, and evident in earth he speaks as one who has authority. And yet even the crowds went out into the wilderness. I'm thinking the feeding of the 5,000, right? Even the crowds went out into the wilderness. I'm thinking the feeding of the 5,000, right. They got lost in love and following and listening to Jesus, so much so that they needed their physical needs met. They were drawn close.
Speaker 2:I think we should use our imagination to picture who Jesus is and how much he loves us. He rejoices over us. As the Father says. Jesus is the beloved, so we are the beloved of God. Like God invites us near, as we draw near to God, he draws near to us. He can't be any closer than he is right now. It's just our awareness by the spirit's power to how radically in love he is with us. And and then you know God, he has an alien side, a law. You know wrath, fearful, fear-stricken side, but that's not his primary disposition toward me. His primary disposition is love and care. And he smiles over me and we smile back.
Speaker 2:I think the way you maybe think of God maybe can impact the way you lead in the local church or in your business. Is it a light touch? Is it an invitational touch that appears to be the way the Triune God works, or is it a heavy, top-down, dictatorial touch? So you spend quite a bit of time talking about our listening God. What's surprising to you about how God listens in both the Old Testament and New Testament? Brian?
Speaker 4:Thanks for asking that question. I was hoping we were going to go there, but I mean, just for a second listeners, wrap your head around the fact that the God of all creation actually listens to ragamuffins and knuckleheads like us. I mean, give me a break. I mean in the book I give the illustration of imagine if you went to a driving range and uh, uh, tiger Woods or Phil Mickelson, um, was, uh, was, was hitting some balls and asked you hey, brian, would you mind to give me a little swing advice? You know what I mean. Like, what are you talking about? You're the boss, you know everything, right?
Speaker 4:Um, that's so foolish to even think about that. That would actually happen. That's so foolish to even think about that. That would actually happen. That's, that's like God actually listening to us times a thousand, right. How many times does the Bible picture a God who bends his ear to hear us? And I guess the point I make in the book is hey, if the Lord of all creation, the one who balances oxygen and nitrogen and hydrogen and all the elements of the earth just so we can breathe, the one who manages all that, actually also takes time to listen to us, don't you think we could pull back on our desire to talk over somebody and to just listen to them, like God does for us.
Speaker 2:You cut out there just for a second, Brian, but I'm sure the audio was absolutely captured. I heard the gist of it and it is audacious that God is so near to us. And what is it about Philippians, chapter 2? This is the way of the cross. Right Connect, listening to the way of the cross and the humility of Christ.
Speaker 4:Tim, you're so good at this vocation of asking questions, I was hoping you were going to do Philippians 2 as well. I love that. Jesus Christ did not consider equality with God something to be grasped as though, like to hang on to it, but rather made himself nothing, coming down to deal and be relationally, incarnationally with us. So, like that is the model, not hierarchical, I'm going to own you, I'm going to lead you and tell you what to do, but I'm going to come down and condescend like dwell among you and be among you and be relational with you and listen to you and care about you and walk with you, and everyone turns their back on you. I won't. That's the ministry and posture Jesus takes in humanity. So don't you think we ought to take that same approach interpersonally, relationally, pastorally? That's the model for ministry.
Speaker 2:Yes and well, that's what the early church did. You had to listen as the gospel went out across culture. We are teaching a class right now and we had our students walk through Alan Hirsch's book Reformation. It came out right during COVID, just like your book did, so it didn't get quite the traction that he and the team were hoping for, and we don't agree with absolutely everything in the book. There are some things he says that are a little I don't know if I'd agree with that, and that's okay. But we talked about the book as a model for us having really healthy dialogue cross-culturally.
Speaker 2:Like Jesus in the early church were masters at saying you've heard it said this, or you're connected to a God who does this. Let me tell you about a God who does this, or the creator of all things. I think maybe go here. I think we need to get better at connecting first article First article simply means how God works in creation to the second article, how he's made himself known in the person and work of Jesus, and that bridge from first to second article is the art of listening. Anything more to say there, brian?
Speaker 4:Because the early church nailed it. Yeah, exactly. And I would say I do a chapter in the book about the. This is like the posture a missionary ought to take, which, by the way, we ought to really think of ourselves in that too, because culture has radically changed, even in like the 15 years that I've been in ministry at this location, like are the way in which, like, the world around us views the church has changed.
Speaker 4:I tell the story of Leslie Newbigin. You know, missiologist, extraordinaire, grows up in England, departs, leaves for you know, 50, 60, 70 years, does great mission work, comes back and finds that England has radically changed and the church is taking the same approach it took when he left right. And so he's like hey, we got to actually listen to the needs and questions that our culture, the hurts that our culture has. If we seek, if we want to actually reach them with the gospel, we've got to first listen to them and listen to their stories and listen to their pain points. And so you know, there is a touch point between listening and the mission of God, which to me are like two sides of the same point.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's absolutely. Hey. Last couple of questions getting practical what does it mean to live? Oci? Oci, open, curious, inquisitive? That's a great handle, dude. Oci, let's live it.
Speaker 4:Thank you. Yeah, I just I noticed there's 800 CSI shows. You know CSI Orlando, csi Las Vegas. I'm like there's got to be a way that we can remember this.
Speaker 4:And so OCI to me is like the posture I take as I enter into relationships or conversations, or you know the person that you were next to in the choral group 10 that you were in, which is I'm going to be open, which means like I actually am going to believe that I can learn something from this person, that I'm not going to prejudge them based on how they look or their political opinions or whatever. I'm open to change. Curious means that's the posture I take, like hey, well, tell me more about that Like. And then inquisitive means like that's actually what I'm going to do, is I'm going to ask questions to get to the bottom of their story. So to me it's just remember like, rather than I don't want to waste my life talking about football and the weather, I'm tired of talking about those things, let's talk about things that matter. And to me that means like asking questions that start with taking.
Speaker 2:So let's get super practical. Here we talk about the LC on the other side of the globe.
Speaker 4:Just picture, like Indonesia or something right, if you were there, planted with the hope of bringing the gospel to that people, what posture would you take toward that community? And number two, what posture would you take towards fellow Christians? And number two, what posture would you take towards fellow Christians? And I think if I was in Indonesia and I found a fellow Christian, I would not be critiquing their worship services, I wouldn't be mocking them for what they wear on Sunday or don't wear, what instruments they use or don't use or anything. I could care less about that.
Speaker 4:I'm in a culture that's trying to reach an unreached people group. If I found a Christian, I would do cartwheels to just be with them and not friendly fire them. So to me, as I think about our culture, man, if we elevated the posture of asking questions to our community because we are now in Indonesia, the world around us has radically changed. We're in a post-Christian context, so we cannot presume that the way the church reached me is the way the church is going to reach somebody else. I've got to ask questions of the culture and secondly, we've got to ask questions of one another. We cannot keep biting one another and critiquing one another and prejudging one another and putting one another in camps. It is devastating to us as we're hoping to reach our community and culture.
Speaker 3:There does seem to be more hospitality, maybe in our church body, with a diversity of worship expression, let's say a diversity of pastoral formation, you know, with some of the global church bodies than we have with our own selves, right that we seem to hold ourselves maybe to a more narrow, stricter standard than we do, and I don't know where that comes from, why we're comfortable, internationally maybe, having this broader standard that we hold ourselves, that we hold Christians to, than when we do with our own national church body. I think it's very interesting.
Speaker 4:I have an opinion about that. Tim. But to me it's like in that, in that environment, somehow we're just so focused and that the mission is everything and and and so those other things become tertiary, like we're not going to mess around with stuff. That's a waste of time, right, but for whatever reason we've lost that sense of that being our primary thing, and so then we take time that shouldn't be spent biting one another.
Speaker 2:Well, it's what happens when the church forgets that she exists because the kingdom of God is advancing and God wants to get all of his kids back. I don't know. You can't put ecclesiology over the mission. If you miss that, it's Christology, it's missiology and it's ecclesiology in that order how we live together as the church, because we can talk about if we agree on Christ and the mission to reach and seek and save the lost. I mean Luke 15, can we agree on? He left the 99 to get the one. She sweeps the house to find the lost coin. They rejoice when the prodigal comes home.
Speaker 2:Like God is very evidently a mission orienting sending God. The father sent the son, the father and son sent the Holy Spirit to try and God sent the church. This is just the way, the scope of the narrative. If we can agree on that, then to use your Indonesia, you actually have the foundation for appropriate conversation around ecclesiastical differences of opinion and really, adiaphora. I really like God has met me in this. This isn't in the Bible exactly how this, but we should do things reverently, in good order. I think there are some best practices for how we talk about formation and worship or anything else or leadership in general, the role of the pastor, how the priesthood of all believers kind of interacts, and we can kind of say, okay, yeah, let's get into it. And then in your context, I'm gonna, I'm going to trust you, I'm going to trust you with it because we, we have kept it. In any organization, if you do not have agreement on the mission and the values and you may think this is corporate, this just is what is if you don't have agreement on that, then what should be appropriately discussed and and you kind of are a little bit more charitable with it you recognize concept. If you miss on the foundation, which is the mission of God, you're going to miss on the relational stuff and those small ecclesial things which they are small in terms of like eternity. In terms of our main mission, they become the main thing.
Speaker 2:And it appears as if the Pharisees had that tendency, didn't they? I mean, jesus comes. We're preaching on the washed hands. Why don't your disciples? Washing your hands is a very good thing, ritual cleansing in the Old Testament is a very good thing, but Jesus knows the heart. Their hearts are far from they didn't want let me land it this way this was a big epiphany for me the Pharisaical tendency. They don't really want to listen or get to know Jesus. They're listening from condemnation and self-righteousness. And we should have the posture of the disciples bumbly, stumbly, curious connected to Jesus sent by the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. That was, and can Pharisees change? Because we all got Pharisee in us, right For sure.
Speaker 2:Daily repentance is saying I want to justify myself, I want to make myself righteous before God, based on what I do and based on the people that I hang out with. And that is the height of sin, and confession and absolution is the way of Jesus, which leads us to a humble posture toward those whom we disagree with. Last thing here I rarely listen to comments. Who knows what comments people are going to like. It's not good for my spirit or whatever. It's not good on either end. Oh, way to go. Or oh, you suck, you're the worst, you know, whatever.
Speaker 2:But if our team says, oh, tim, you should respond to this one, this is interesting I'll say yeah, just send me. I'm not going to get into a debate with anybody via the written word. I've spoken and that's it. If you want to have a conversation, send me an email. Do you know how many people have? Over the last number of years I've been doing podcasts that I've left a little blurb. Here's my email talman at cglchurchorg. Do you know how many people that disagree with me have sent me an email?
Speaker 4:Zero. That's incredible.
Speaker 2:Zero who have made those kinds of comments. Now I've talked to people that I disagree with. You know around different things, but if you're like bombing on social media, you just want to drop the bomb and you want to bounce. You don't want to actually get to know me or or any of the it's the same dialogue.
Speaker 3:You just want to proclaim your point and let it go.
Speaker 2:That's it. So let's work on that LCMS, and we at the ULC are ready to set space toward that end, Brian. Any final comments? Man, this has been so much fun.
Speaker 4:Thanks so much for the conversation, thanks for the work you're doing, and may God's good work in all of us continue.
Speaker 2:Amen, it's a privilege. This is lead time. Please like, subscribe, comment. Wherever it is you take in these conversations, the joy of Jesus is our strength, he is our refuge, our ever-present help in times of trouble, and this is probably released during Lent. May your Lenten journey to the cross of Jesus Christ give you the hope that death does not win, life wins. Jesus is alive, he is reigning and he sent his spirit to move us out with humility into his mission and dive right in man. The water's great, the water's warm, and let's get after it. So thanks Brian, thanks Jack, excellent work. It's a good day. Go make it a great day.
Speaker 3:It's been a pleasure listening to you all.
Speaker 4:Well played, let's go, let's go.
Speaker 1:You've been listening to Lead Time, a podcast of the Unite Leadership Collective. The ULC's mission is to collaborate with the local church to discover, develop and deploy leaders through biblical Lutheran doctrine and innovative methods To partner with us in this gospel message. Subscribe to our channel, then go to theuniteleadershiporg to create your free login for exclusive material and resources and then to explore ways in which you can sponsor an episode. Thanks for listening and stay tuned for next week's episode.