Lead Time
Lead Time
From Liturgical Purist to Pragmatist: Rethinking Lutheran Worship
Dr. Kent Burreson shares his 25-year journey teaching Lutheran worship, exploring how liturgy should serve the gospel rather than becoming an end in itself. He offers wisdom on balancing historical practices with contextual relevance while keeping Christ at the center of worship.
• Journey from liturgical purist to liturgical pragmatist
• How political tribalization has influenced church worship practices
• Rising interest in traditional liturgy among younger generations
• Origins and evolution of confession and absolution in the liturgy
• Luther's balanced approach to tradition versus traditionalism
• The importance of "contextual hospitality" in worship practices
• Understanding that liturgy serves as means toward mission, not an end itself
• The liturgical leader as servant within the assembly, not over it
Connect with Dr. Kent Burreson at burresonk@csl.edu or through the seminary's website www.csl.edu.
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This is Lead Time.
Speaker 2:Welcome to Lead Time, tim Allman here. It's a beautiful day to be alive. I have Jack Kalberg in the house. Brother, I know it's spring season, that's right. We had this beautiful weekend of teaching. We called it Freedom Weekend. It was deep catechesis and you were actually wearing a mask because of all the allergens right now in the valley.
Speaker 3:You know I'm doing okay today. Actually, I was actually getting overwhelmed with a bit of an ear infection, so I got that taken care of and I'm feeling a lot better. But sometimes it's just like the amount of stuff coming in versus how fast your body can flush it out. You know that's it was getting a little overwhelming for me Get it.
Speaker 2:Hey, today we have the privilege of chatting with Reverend Dr Kent Burris, and Kent has been a longtime professor, worship leader, taught on Lutheran worship. One of my first Dr Burris and I don't know if you know this one of my first, like I go back, this is 25 years now or so first memories of seminary life at concordia seminary in st louis was being in. I think it was a late in my first year, maybe third quarter or something like that experience in lutheran worship and and walking through the liturgy and uh and oh yeah, this is just. I wasn't planning on saying this but going through the words of institution in my class and I forgot to make the sign of the cross over the elements and you kind of lovingly, kindly, said normally we make the sign of the cross, tim. You know, at these moments and things I was so focused on the word. But then you said but it's okay, it's the power of the word, not what we do with our hands per se.
Speaker 2:So that was very, very kind of you. How are you doing, Dr Burrison?
Speaker 4:I'm doing very well. Thanks, Tim.
Speaker 2:How many years now at the seminary?
Speaker 4:25.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so that was like that was one of your first, second, third year. Maybe it was 22, 23 years ago. But yeah, wild, wild, wild. So much of what we're going to be sharing today is based on a presentation that Dr Burrison gave here in Phoenix in February and please share. We're going to get into your story here just a little bit, but I love this. Handle your journey from liturgical puritist to liturgical pragmatist. Tell that story, dr Burrison.
Speaker 4:Yeah, sure no to liturgical pragmatist. Tell that story, dr Burzen. Yeah, sure, no, glad to. So that was sort of at the heart of the presentation that I gave at the Worship and Arts Leadership Conference. So I mean, I probably drew the contrast pretty starkly.
Speaker 4:I always have pragmatic orientation in my bones, so it's not like I was, you know, this liturgical purist that you know. We want to return to the Tridentine rite or something like that, you know. I mean, which for Lutherans would be extremely problematic for a lot of different reasons. So it's not like something like that. But so there's always been an orientation towards pragmatism.
Speaker 4:But I think in my background, you know, in my education, I've always had an interest in the history of the liturgy and that was what I pursued in terms of my PhD, my doctoral studies at the University of Notre Dame. So there's sort of a natural inclination for a liturgical historian to be interested in the rite, the shape of the rite, you know, and honoring those practices from the past. But I think, as I've taught for 25 years now, I've become much more aware of the fact that the liturgy and our worship should serve the gospel and the gospel's force within the church's life. That's always the orientation. It's the orientation of Lutheran confessions, it should be the orientation of the church Catholic and obviously should be the orientation of the Lutheran church. And so I think that sort of drew me back into being aware of not making liturgical purity a driving force in terms of how we shape our worship life corporately as congregations and then also as church in a Catholic sense.
Speaker 2:So yeah, well, what other focus can liturgy have? You say the liturgy is called to serve, I would say, the grand narrative, from invocation, baptism, to our ascending, and the benediction, whether it's from Numbers, chapter 6, or a Pauline kind of blessing as we're sent out. What other end goal could the liturgy have that you think is problematic, other than the gospel?
Speaker 4:Well, I think some people would assert that the liturgy should serve the institution and here I speak about the institution of the church and also that it should serve the. It should be an identifying marker of the church in an institutional sense, and so then it, for those who are oriented in that direction, it serves as a source of security or a source of identity, and we should be defined by the gospel without equivocation. That should be what defines our identity. And so when we make something else the definer of our identity and you can talk about a whole host of things, doctrine, scripture, liturgy, fashions, whatever If you make that the definer of your identity as a Christian and certainly as a Lutheran, that's problematic, and I think that's the orientation sometimes people take, that the liturgy should be the definer of our identity.
Speaker 2:What's your perspective as culture has shifted so dramatically, you know? And then you've got COVID and you've got, you know, a splintering of relationships. We've made this statement around the LCMS that we're becoming increasingly tribal. How closely connected do you think is the secularization in America to then the reactivity, to try and orient ourselves around doing the liturgy right? And if I do these external things, the way I hold my hands, what I wear, et cetera, then I'm seen as more pure, or at least it's a virtue signal to the people I want to be associated with. That I'm, I'm with, I'm with you. Do you think that's accelerated because of secularization here in America?
Speaker 4:Well, it's a question. I mean you mentioned the tribalization in our political life and in our social life that tribalization obviously crosses over into the church's life. I don't think there's any question that that kind of tribalization um obviously crosses over into the church's life. I don't think there's any question that that kind of tribalization um is taken hold to a certain extent within, within our life as uh, lutherans and certainly as Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. So you know, you can group a tribe around the liturgy.
Speaker 4:It's a very convenient kind of focal point um that we're liturgical uh well, liturgical, liturgical purists from lack of a better term we heighten the sense of the role of the liturgy and how the liturgy should function, and so we can group ourselves around one another and define ourselves in that way. And so it does become a marker and a source of conflict honestly within the church then, because others might define themselves differently in relationship to worship. So it becomes very problematic and I think there's a lot of crossover with our political life. So a lot of those political kinds of identifying markers also become part then of the conversation within the church about liturgy, about confessions, about doctrine and those kinds of things. So, yeah, very problematic.
Speaker 3:There seems to be a resurgence and an interest in liturgical worship, I think in society right now. I've noticed that a lot of younger families that we get to our church we do both contemporary and traditional styles of worship. They're both liturgical, but I'm surprised by the number of young families that are attracted to the more traditional expression. It's not the majority, but it's a much higher number than I probably would have seen in the past and we see that even as a trend where, like, a lot of young men are getting attracted to like Greek Orthodox and stuff like that because of its super high liturgy. What are your thoughts behind that? What do you think is driving that right now?
Speaker 4:That's a good question, jack. I think there are a lot of different reasons. What do you think is driving that right now? That's a good question, jack. I think there are a lot of different reasons. I think this question of identity is a formative factor. Seeking security, a sense of connection to the past is a primary player, you know, so that we're connected to the church Catholic throughout the ages, and that's a legitimate and honorable kind of intention in terms of associating liturgy with that sense of the past and identity as it rolls out of the past. So that's a good thing, I think. When it's weaponized, though, then it becomes problematic. But there are definitely, and there are a lot of different movements within different church bodies and different sectors of society.
Speaker 4:For instance, there's been an orientation toward appreciating liturgical forms from the past in the evangelical tradition. That's been going on for about 25 years and honestly it was. It was initiated to a certain degree by Bob Weber, who is the director of the Center for Worship Study at Wheaton College for many years, and then started his own institute and, interestingly, he was educated at his PhD. His PhD is from Concordia Seminary. Yeah, thanks, you know. So Bob Weber had a significant, robert Weber had a significant influence on that in the evangelical tradition. But you can see it within Pentecostals, for instance, there was a, there's a worship book, a liturgical theology, written by Chang I forget his first name right now Pentecostal, interested in liturgy and history. I mean that grounding in the past is important for traditions, for Christian traditions, for the church Catholic, and so when it's used in such a way that it drives to the gospel, then there's benefit in that kind of association. But when it's used in such a way that it replaces that gospel identity, then it becomes problematic.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's interesting. I want to think about liturgy Like I think of something that can actually be done in all kinds of contexts. I think you can have a liturgical worship service in a camp, in a camp, out right In your camping clothes around a campfire, and you, I will allow screens in my worship in my sanctuary. When movie theaters allow worship and it's like, well, no movie theaters have worship in them, you can go and find Lutheran liturgical services in there.
Speaker 1:We're a part of a part of a church.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that has liturgical worship in so many different contexts.
Speaker 2:I mean we have to La Mesa, which is largely working, poor and homeless. It's a very liturgical experience for them. It's tighter, our messages there are shorter. They better include humor and tell me a good story and center it in the story of Jesus. It's an alpine cowboy church to multi-sites, to larger venues with you know 300 people, to venues of you know 50 people or so. So it's, and all of those contexts are unique. But the bones of invocation through benediction and ascending are, they take place, they're just contextualized into those settings and I feel super consistent with our Lutheran value of liturgical worship. So, dr Burstyn, take us to school here just a little bit. You define worship history in these ways splitter or lumper. These are unique words, organic versus dynamic and receptive to tradition. So could you break some of those down for us? You don't have to go into all of them, but take us to school in terms of worship history.
Speaker 4:Yeah, sure. So the splitter, lumper categorization comes from one of my teachers at Notre Dame, paul Bradshaw, sort of one of the preeminent early church liturgy scholars of the past 30 years, and so he characterized worship, especially his study of worship in the early 20th century, as being oriented towards lumping. In other words, it saw this sort of organic and so now I'm moving into organic but it saw this sort of organic kind of development of worship in the early church and so you could connect the dots between various things. You know you connect dots between, let's say, apostolic tradition, which was written in sometime in the 250s. You could connect the dots between that and subsequent documents that came. And you can also connect, could connect back to the, the Jewish experience in the anti in the intertestamental period. So that's lumping. You know you're creating these dots, connecting historically how things develop.
Speaker 4:Splitting, which was Paul's primary approach, paul Brancheau's approach and obviously affected me, is to say that we don't see those kinds of connections necessarily and they aren't necessarily driven by design. In other words, a lot of the stuff that the lumpers would put forward would say that the church designed things to go this direction, you know, and the problem is that we don't have a lot of documents, especially in the early church period. Even in the medieval period, though, we don't have a lot of intentionality of design. Things happen sort of haphazardly. You know. Now some things are by design.
Speaker 4:You know, obviously the Tridentine rite was spelled out by Trent, by the Council of Trent. So there are things that are by design, but it's just the overall picture. You can't really describe it as having this kind of organic development. So there's probably, you know Paul would always say there's a middle position. You know, in a sense there are some things that are designed and some things do flow together in terms of development, but then there are other things that there are significant gaps in terms of development, but then there are other things that there are significant gaps in terms of the liturgical history. You can't connect the dots in this way, you know, moving forward. So that sense of organic development is not in evidence throughout all times and places in terms of the development of our worship historically, and so it's more and more of a dynamic kind of process that plays out within the church's history.
Speaker 2:Essentially, Could you tell us where? Or maybe there's multiple places historically documented where we see evidence of the church, early church, down through the ages, where the ordo kind of comes together, where some leaders who are some of those leaders who are trying to give the ordo for the church's life. Yeah, that's a good question.
Speaker 4:Yeah, that's a good question. I mean the ordo itself. If you talk about the, it depends upon how you talk about the ordo, you know. But the ordo itself, in terms of the structure of service of the word, service of the Lord's Supper, and then some kind of baptismal reflection that's going on in relationship to both of those, that kind of structure we know is in existence already by well. It's probably in existence in the New Testament period, so it's probably laid out by the apostles.
Speaker 4:We don't have anything in the New Testament that says this is the actual structure, but we know that they were meeting on Saturdays, service of the word coming from the synagogue, and then service of the Lord's Supper celebrated on Sundays, and sometimes they would vigil through the night from that service of the word into service of the Lord's Supper on Sunday. But the strongest evidence we have it's irrefutable evidence in that regard is Justin Martyr in 150, it's irrefutable evidence in that regard. It's just a martyr in 150. When he writes his apology to the emperor as he's being prepared to be shipped off to Rome and eventually killed, martyred for being a Christian. He outlines the whole service for the emperor, basically to say to the emperor we don't do anything weird strange, I mean, christians were being accused of doing all kinds of weird things and Justin's saying no, we don't, here's what we do, you know. And so we have the outline then from Justin Martyr of service to the word, service to the Lord supper, and a lot of the things that we traditionally associate ritually with that outline, with that development, are contained in that, in what Justin offers.
Speaker 4:So preaching, obviously, is central Prayer. After the preaching, in preparation for the Lord's Supper, some kind of rite he's indicating he doesn't lay it out clearly, but some kind of rite for celebrating the Lord's Supper. Readings I didn't mention those prior to the sermon. He doesn't say how many readings, but he does say that we read from the Old Testament scriptures and presumably from the New Testament scriptures. So all of that is contained in Justin's outline. And then that moves forward in terms of the. There isn't a lot of evidence in the pre-Nicene period, but we have a few documents and that essential ordo is laid out in all of those documents, then going into the fourth century. Once we get the fourth century, then we have all kinds of evidence from a lot of different sources.
Speaker 2:Hey, did Justin Martyr talk at all about a right of confession and absolution? No, he didn't. So, historically, do you?
Speaker 4:think— Now I should say, though, tim, repentance is important. Well, sure, repentance is part of his message, so that you know the turning of Christians—when you become a Christian, the act of repentance, the act of turning against the lordship of satan, evil, sin, etc. Is a fundamental part of the conversion experience, and then that life becomes that, that turning becomes the shape of the christian life moving forward. But no, he doesn't talk about it like a right of confession, absolution or something like that yeah, and just to clarify for people that haven't studied latin ordo means order, right, structure and we so like we get the word ordinance from that right.
Speaker 4:Yes, yeah, same source.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's good jack yeah well now, now my head is going down. The confession, absolution path is like sure, two, 2.5 sacraments, you know. I mean luther was even sensitive, but it didn't have a physical element, you know. So he said, he said no, but it was obviously in the reformation church, it was obviously a major part of the liturgy. Can you tell us, tell me the history? I'm just curious maybe others aren't, but they can stop listening could you tell us a history of confession and absolution being connected to the ordo?
Speaker 4:yeah, sure so. So the earliest forms, in the early church, of confession and absolution are what are called their corporate forms of confession and absolution. So when somebody sinned they become a Christian. They belong to the Christian community, the part of the family of God, part of the household of God. Some kind of major sin and major sins would include in the early church period, adultery, murder, embezzling funds, stealing those kinds of things. So if a Christian does these kinds of things, then they would have entered the order of penitence, which meant that they were separated from the main assembly, couldn't participate in the Lord's Supper. There would be a period of time that the pastor would say you have to be in the order of penitence and reflect upon your sinful condition and then you have to publicly. So you're public before the congregation, Everybody knows who's in the order of penitence. This is a shameful act.
Speaker 3:Well, and this included people in the early church that may have turned away from the church under persecution right, that's correct. And wanted to come back. That's correct.
Speaker 4:Yeah, that's correct, apostasy would also be interesting. So you're in this order and then you're eventually restored when you've undergone however long the pastor thinks you need to be in the order of penitence. That kind of penance, eventually, or that kind of confession absolution, drifts out of use by the time we enter into the union between Christianity and the state. So what we call Christendom, which happens from the fourth century, from Constantine, all the way up until about the eighth century, eighth, ninth century, when you get to Charlemagne, then the unification of society and church is complete. So by that point, this order, this public order of confession, ceases to exist. What takes over then? It comes from the Celtic Isles, from Ireland, and that's canonical penance, which is a form of penance that is shaped within a monastic environment. You know, christianity in Ireland is born out of the monastic experience. So, uh, from that monastic experience then, um, they're, they're trying to, to, um, uh, control or or order the life of the monks, and the way they do that is through examination. Um, so, examining the monk's life, is it as pure as it needs to be? So they develop these lists of sins that have to be examined, and then the monk would confess them and then be absolved and then he would also be expected to perform some kind of satisfaction on the basis of those sins. That form of confession and absolution is what becomes primary in the West and that's the form of confession absolution that Luther rails against in 1520, 1521, and following.
Speaker 4:Luther doesn't rail necessarily against confession absolution. What he rails against is the form that it has taken, in which the absolution is not primary. The gospel is not primary. In other words, you have to examine yourself, list all your you know, name all your sins you know, and if you haven't named all your sins, then you can't fully, can't truly be absolved. And of course you have to perform the satisfaction order for your absolution to take hold, for your forgiveness to take hold. So there are all kinds of requirements, and that's all part of the medieval understanding, justification. And so it's problematic from that vantage point, because our works are contributing to our justification. So he says we need to return to the primary form, which is understanding that when the sinner comes and confesses that he isn't turning, he's making that repentant act, and so priority is then to forgive his sins, to restore his identity in Christ. And so that's what Luther does, and he points out the priority of that. So Luther's practice in his own life was to receive individual confession absolution with his confessor, who was Bugenhagen, the city pastor in Wittenberg, two, three, four times a week. That was Luther's practice throughout his entire life, pretty much so.
Speaker 4:Then in the medieval period there develops this rite of public general confession absolution that's associated with the vernacular in the mass. So they start inserting vernacular services service of the word, basically in the mass. So the rest of the mass is in Latin and they insert this vernacular German, french, whatever it is, depending upon where you are right in the middle, and that would often include preaching. Sometimes it would also include sort of a general rite of confession absolution in the vernacular so that people can participate in it, understand it. All those kinds of things Didn't happen everywhere, but certain places that define worship and a whole host of other things in the various Lutheran territories they start developing use of this general right of general confession absolution within the divine service.
Speaker 4:And that goes back to these medieval vernacular rights that were inserted into the mass.
Speaker 4:They don't develop uniformly across all territories and there are different forms that they take, sometimes at the beginning of the service, sometimes at the point of the sermon, sometimes at the end of the service. You know it's sort of all over the board and that's the source of our right of general public confession, absolution at the beginning of our services in Lutheran service book and Lutheran worship and the Lutheran hymnal. You know that's the source of those. But Luther would never have practiced that because those forms had not been inserted into the right in Wittenberg when he died.
Speaker 4:He was aware of them because he receives a letter from a pastor asking about these, because the pastor has experienced them and he wants Luther's opinion on them and Luther says I suppose they're good, they can be useful and helpful with regards to the gospel and absolution, as long as they don't displace private confession and absolution, which is really interesting because essentially that's what happened. You know, in terms of the practice of the church this becomes the primary form of confession and absolution and individual confession and absolution sort of has this sort of rollercoaster historical ride in Lutheranism all the way up to the 20th, 21st century. So that's a long-winded answer to the history. Oh, I love it.
Speaker 3:My understanding about the practice of penance that would come after confession and absolution was that it was seen as a therapeutic thing. Confession and absolution was that it was seen as a therapeutic thing. I could give this person this thing that they could do, and then they could feel totally assured, beyond what I just told them, that they're forgiven, right. And then that kind of morphs into or kind of develops concurrently with this view of purgatory that these things also now can serve to reduce your time in purgatory, right, correct?
Speaker 4:So it's all part of the works righteousness, orientation of the medieval church, right and it all contributes to. So there's sort of but that's not how it begins.
Speaker 3:Just to be sure, that's not how it begins. It was more therapeutic in the beginning and then it morphs into that over time. Right, that's great. That's great, that's great.
Speaker 2:Hey, that's really helpful. I went. I mean I have so many questions, but we got to get to other things.
Speaker 2:I'm going down this rabbit trail, but you know, confession and absolution at the beginning of the service. Sometimes I've thought like, well, shouldn't it kind of? I mean, it can be anywhere. And I think the best case for it being at the beginning is connected to the invocation and the remembrance of baptism to move the sinner far from God into a recognition of their saintliness because of the work of Christ through the cross and the empty tomb and the receptivity of that gift by faith alone. And now our hearts are prepared to hear the word right, and so you can make that case. But I can also make the case that out of the invocation directly into the hearing of the word, pre-lord's Supper could be a really great time for confession and absolution as well as we prepare our hearts to receive the forgiveness of sins through the body and blood of Jesus. Any take there, dr Burrison.
Speaker 4:No, unquestionably. I agree with you completely, tim. I mean it depends upon the ritual purpose you know of the confession and absolution. It can serve different ritual purposes depending upon where it's placed and what its context is, what it's juxtaposed to. So if you want to associate it with baptism and then with the hearing of the word that's associated with baptism and that flows from the ancient adult catechumenate, which was the process for making Christians in the second, third, fourth, fifth centuries, then that's a logical ritual association. If you want to associate it, though, with, let's say, reconciliation so here, paul, 1 Corinthians, don't approach the altar unless you're reconciled to your brother then confession and absolution makes a lot of sense right before the Lord's Supper, and that's where it was in the 1856 agenda of the Lutheran Church of Missouri Synod. It was after the sermon, before the celebration of the Lord's Supper. So this is even part of our own tradition.
Speaker 4:In that regard, one of the things that I've tried to advocate for students is recognizing that there are other ways to, let's say, ritually accomplish what we want to accomplish when we're using it at the beginning of the service.
Speaker 4:So if we're trying to associate it with baptism I don't know that people necessarily pick up on the association between confession, absolution and baptism. I think we have to teach people and remind them what that connection is, but is also to do things like a service of baptismal remembrance or baptismal affirmation. You know which? Which other? Well, for instance, the ELCA in their new hymnal new hymnal it's not new now, but they have they have an alternate right of baptismal remembrance. I think that's really helpful because it helps people to be aware of my identity as a baptized child of God, baptized in the gospel. So yeah, I mean ritually, you can use the rite of confession and absolution in various places in terms of what you want to accomplish, and I think that ritual flexibility is at the heart of a Lutheran understanding of adiaphora, you know, for instance, Well, let's get into it.
Speaker 2:You bring it up. This is Formula of Concord, article 8, or 10, I'm sorry. This also concerns the article on Christian freedom, and there is a lot of, if you hear the evolution of the liturgy. There's a lot of Adiaphora here. The church is just trying to figure it out by the Spirit's power to point people to Christ and the gospel. For weakening this article on Christian freedom and forcing human commands upon the church as necessary, as if their omission were wrong and sinful, already paves the way for idolatry. Formula of Concord, and that's in Article 10 and 15. They talk a lot about this and we've seen traditionalism kind of taking root here in the Lutheran Church, missouri Synod. Here's a quote that you shared Tradition is the living faith of the dead, traditionalism is the dead faith of the living. So piggyback on even Luther into the formula of Concord on his perspective toward tradition and traditionalism, dr Burrison.
Speaker 4:Yeah, no, that's a good question. Luther respected the tradition? Obviously he didn't. He saw Lutheranism. He saw well, he saw the church, of which he felt Lutheranism was the expression, the proper expression of the church in relationship to Rome and to the other reformers. But he saw Lutheranism in continuity with the church, catholic, going all the way back to the apostles. So that's why we confess every Sunday, we are Catholic, apostolic, a Catholic and apostolic church in the creed. So he saw that kind of continuity and he honored the tradition.
Speaker 4:But the tradition should never function in a traditionalistic sense, and that's drawing upon Yaroslav Pelikan's quote. That's where the quote comes from. He delivered an essay years ago I mean in the 80s on tradition and it's a very, very helpful essay because what it does is it outlines that tradition is to serve the life of the church. The church isn't to serve tradition, and that would basically that's essentially Luther's approach. You know, tradition should serve the church, not the church serve tradition. And sometimes we well often we get caught up in we end up serving tradition as opposed to tradition serving the life of the church. So it should inform the church's life, it should shape the church's life according to the story as you outlined earlier. It should center people in their identity in the gospel, in Christ himself. And if tradition doesn't do those kinds of things, then you need to reform it.
Speaker 4:And that's essentially what Luther did with the Deutsche Messe. You're transitioning. You know. He made a revision to Latin Mass so he didn't dispense with Latin. That was the language of the church, didn't dispense with it, but he saw it primarily operating within um cathedral uh churches, churches in cities, um operating with uh in association with schools, um, because there the language of latin was still beneficial, they were going to teach in latin. Um, yeah, nobility, right, most of the people don't understand Latin, so we need to make a transition into the vernacular. So that would be an example of that kind of move in which tradition does not control the church's life. The church's life is served by the tradition.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're seeing a rise in this, I think, in the LCMS, in certain pockets, and there's no judgment here, but I feel I feel like there's judgment toward, toward some of our practices, specifically around different instrumentation. Right, I could, I. I think it's an art, it's a matter of Christian freedom how a leader holds his hands where he stands, you know what he wears per se to orient himself as one who is a servant of Christ serving God's people, word and sacrament. I think there's a lot there. But I know there's a lot of intensity in our church body against certain ways that the order gets lived out and I've been praying for contextual hospitality now for some time and I don't see brothers going away from the order of the divine service with a robust. We're against this in any of the pockets that I'm a part of. Like our worship, even in large churches, you know churches that are super mission oriented, all of us still have like the general order of service. The instrumentation just may be different. And the biggest thing for me to say is were we influenced negatively potentially by the church growth movement and by newer songs written for modern instrumentation? Yes, I think. I think there is some work that need and is still being done toward that end Songs that that maybe were less than less than theologically faithful.
Speaker 2:They were obviously not Lutheran songs. But today we have there was the songwriters initiative you were talking about in Wally and we're trying to write really, really excellent, excellent, jesus centered, lutheran confessional identity centered songs right now. So I guess to land it and get your take, I don't know what we're arguing about for people that are observing some of our worship. It's like I think this I think Lutheran worship, final comment should be what unites us, like the liturgy and the order should be what unites us rather than divides us. But it feels like it feels like it's still a divisive conversation. Any take there, Dr Burson?
Speaker 4:I mean there's no question it's still a divisive conversation. I don't think there's any any doubt about that, and I think part of it is is what again drives us back to what's the center of our identity as church, and here AC 4 and 5 are very clear, augsburg Confession 4 and Articles 4 and 5 are very clear that word and sacrament are the identifying factors of the church. And you can't, going back to Formula Conqueror 10 and 15, you can't. And again going back to Form of the Conqueror 10 and 15, you can't add to that. You can't say well, the Pope is an identifying factor, or the liturgy is an identifying factor, or this rite is an identifying factor.
Speaker 4:If you don't have that and glass is an identifying factor or any particular kind of architecture for a building, for a building, you know, or whatever.
Speaker 4:You can't make any of those kinds of additions to word and sacraments. So that's the center of our identity and then so that should lead. That should lead, as you said, to contextual hospitality. I mean, hospitality should be at the heart of that, of that reality, and I think that's a that's comes to expression in Luther's Freedom of a Christian, when he says a Christian is a dutiful servant of all, subject to none.
Speaker 4:That's in the gospel. You know, there is nothing that lords over your relationship in Christ and with God in Christ. But then a Christian is a dutiful servant of all, subject to all. So meaning that in everything we do and this would include worship it's intended to serve the neighbor, and so in that regard, I'm subject to all. That's a hospitable stance. Essentially, is what Luther's advocating for there, so that when we come to the table and I have these kinds of ritual practices in my worship and I have these kinds of ritual practices in my book everybody has a ritual. It doesn't matter what space you're in or what worship service you're in. It all has a ritual in some way or another. So how do you receive what's being done in that context in a way that would continue to affirm our unity in Word and Sacrament.
Speaker 2:Well, I'll give you a case in point our unity in Word and Sacrament. Well, I'll give you a case in point. If I weren't to close any of the various contextual gatherings around Word and Table without saying God is good, and the congregation responds all the time like I would be sitting, it would be, it would be so like people would be like what are we? Like? That was embedded in our community when I came like to disregard that would have been very un. That's not in the divine service. Well, it's in the service here at christ grainfield. So I think I'm going to be a part of my service, yeah, exactly absolutely.
Speaker 4:I mean that's a ritual act. You know a ritual act that is part of the life of that particular, uh, community, christian community, church, you know so. So I mean, yeah, I mean you would have been, you would have been sinning if you had admitted it.
Speaker 3:Yes, Our good Friday services. When we blacken out the sanctuary, there's like not an ounce of light that comes in there because it's done in the dark and you better have it black in there. Oh, you're going to hear about it.
Speaker 4:It's a beautiful practice.
Speaker 2:When I came to realize I was an outsider. Now I'm an insider because I've been here 12 years. But right up front, I think a lot of times we disrespect what has come before us and pastors like and you counseled toward this beautifully, like, if you come in and want to like, change a lot of things concerning the divine service, tread lightly there, brothers, because there's danger in this Like, you're going to hurt the core of who that community is. I love this quote that you say culture is the soil in which ceremonies and practices grow and develop. You better respect the culture of the local church, dr Berson.
Speaker 4:Yeah, no, it's absolutely right, because the nature of Christian tradition, christian history, is that ritual is born pretty much from culture in water, with the triune name, that we celebrate the Lord's Supper by taking bread, blessing it, giving it and eating it, and then some other things like preaching. We should preach, we should pray, you know, but there aren't, I mean, and of course our Lord gives us the Lord's prayer as a form of prayer. This is a way in which to pray, and so we should pray in this way. But there's really very little in the New Testament that's ritually mandated.
Speaker 4:And so then the church, from the beginning, is drawing upon culture. You know, even the structure that we talked about earlier of Word, word service of the Word, service of the Lord's Supper, that is a culturally derived structure. It's not, I mean, yes, it's embedded in the New Testament, but it's a culturally derived structure because the service of the word comes out of Judaism and comes out of the Jewish experience, and the service of the Lord's Supper is formed primarily from the Greco-Roman mind. So culture is already at the beginning, influencing those kinds of things. And then you can see that throughout the early church period, you know, in terms of development, and we're borrowing all kinds of things. We've talked about confession of absolution before. You know, the development of the practice of individual confession of absolution develops in the Celtic Irish mind and in the Celtic cultural orientation. So we're always engaged with cultural derivation of our ritual practices. And your example is how did it go?
Speaker 2:God is good, God is good. People say all the time the congregation responds.
Speaker 3:Yeah, wasn't Luther the one that made congregational singing popular? Right, I don't know how popular that was prior to. It's not information there was none.
Speaker 4:Yeah, there was none so yeah, that's a good example, jack, of a culturally derived reality.
Speaker 3:Yeah, right question it's like the culture would have been, I don't know, you would have chanting from the the priests, right, and I don't know, maybe a choir, but you wouldn't have congregational singing, right, and this was a radically different thing. And now that's shaped, now that's common in catholic churches. Yeah, interesting, right.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so they took that influence onto themselves, yeah, no, it's right, this is right this is good, dr burris.
Speaker 2:yeah, well, wait, I could go. We got to have you back on because there's so many. We just touched the surface on a whole host of topics but I think, to close, we are making the, I think, jesus-centered, loving, kind argument for contextual hospitality and there are some in our church body who say that the culture and context I'll just throw out where my grandma lives up in Crookston Minnesota, that there, my grandma lives up in Crookston Minnesota, that there's very little difference between Crookston, minnesota and Gilbert Arizona, where we live, and I've been there and I've been here and I'm just here to tell you like there's a lot of difference.
Speaker 2:Doing ministry here is very different than small town Midwest and I just don't think that those who have that experience understand the different needs. And it's not better or worse, it's just the different context in which we find ourselves right now and I'm praying, I'm praying. Really a lot of our podcasts just orient around around praying for contextual hospitality and there's radical differences across the 35 districts of the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. Any comments there, dr Burrison?
Speaker 4:Yeah, so I'm reminded of Ambrose of Milan, so going back to the fourth century. So in his Mystagogical Catechesis, which are the sermons or teaching that he did after the baptism of all those who were preparing for baptism at Easter, after the baptism of all those who were preparing for baptism at Easter, and he indicates that in Milan which is a very unusual practice they foot wash during the baptismal rite. So they wash the feet of the catechumens during the baptismal rite. And Ambrose observes this is unique to Milan, this is a Milanese custom. And he says we know they don't do this in Rome, but that's okay, because this is our practice here, this is what we do in Milan. So he's clearly indicating that, culturally, there's a different environment, contextual environment, in Rome, I mean in Milan, and it's legitimate what they do, even though in Rome they do something different they don't practice the foot washing and baptism. So that's a parallel to the exact thing you're talking about, tim, you know there are these differences?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and they saw themselves as united in the Christian church. No question, no question.
Speaker 4:Nobody was saying you're not Christian because you practice foot washing and your baptismal rite. No, nobody was saying it. And if they were, they were wrong, you know so so yes.
Speaker 2:I love that you have a quote. We're going to close with this. The liturgist your quote on the liturgist is a presider in Christ for the assembly in culture. So here's what you say when it gathers and this is the church, in the liturgy, the assembly stands in worship before the creator as sacraments and servant in Christ of a new world, a new made world. This is serious business. You say, the liturgical minister presides not over the assembly but within it. He does not lead it but serves it. How is this a different posture for the liturgist? And maybe you got this actually from Aidan Kavanaugh. I'm just seeing that right now, but it's a great quote. It's a different posture for the liturgist, and maybe you got this actually from Aidan Kavanaugh, I'm just seeing that right now, but it's a great quote. It's a different posture. We're here to serve rather than necessarily to lead. We're servant leaders, if you will, first and foremost for the propagation of the gospel, for the sending of the saints out to make more and more disciples. Share a little bit around that quote, dr Burson.
Speaker 4:Yeah. So the liturgical leader and then this starts with the pastor, obviously, but also would stretch into other roles of leadership within worship is always one whose call and I'm using call broadly there the task of responsibility that is given to that particular person. And a pastor, obviously it's in his ordination and his call from the congregation is always one called to serve the church. I mean that's in a sense that's also AC4 and AC5. The means of grace. What's the pastor there for? He's there to serve the congregation with the gospel and the story of God in Christ. That's what he's there to do.
Speaker 4:He's not trying to establish some kind of identity. He's not trying to establish some kind of control of culture. He's not trying to institute practices that clearly demonstrate the continuity of the church all the way back to the first century. That's not his primary task. His primary task is to serve the assembly with the gospel and, as Kavanaugh says, to shape this understanding that the kingdom of God, the city of God, if you want to call it that the city of God, has been embedded in the world so as to be the agent of mission to the world. So the pastor's primarily responsibility and other liturgical leaders is to shape the congregation to be the city of God, to be the kingdom of God in the midst of a fallen world, in the midst of a world that is falling toward destruction, so that they can see what God is doing in Christ. That's what the leader is supposed to do in terms of his service to the congregation.
Speaker 2:Well, it's very evident, then, that the liturgy is a means toward mission.
Speaker 2:The end is God's mission, that Jesus came to seek and save the lost. And we gather to recognize how lost we are, apart from the saving of Christ, and then to be gathered and scattered out into our various vocations to bring the love and light, the gospel of Jesus Christ, to those who are walking in darkness. If the liturgy serves as an ends rather than a means to an end and I fear in some pockets it's the end rather than a catalyst for catechesis and truth carried out into the world if it becomes the end, we're missing, it, we're making and this is where, Dr Kieschnick, you can disagree with Dr Kieschnick you're worshiping worship. He said that before. We're making the liturgy an idol. Any comments there? It becomes an end and it's not the end, it's a scattering of the gospel. Right, that's right.
Speaker 4:The end is the kingdom of God, which means a new heaven and a new earth where Christ reigns and rules over all things and where he is the source of our life in God. That's the end, not the liturgy, and the liturgy should point to that end. You know, the liturgy should provide a context in which we realize and see that end. We envision it by faith. That's what the liturgy should serve enable that to happen. But it in and of itself it's not the end in any way whatsoever and it can't be. And it becomes back that there's no question that's idolatrous. Then something has replaced Christ, the liturgy has replaced Christ, rather than seeing Christ at the center of the kingdom of God that is embedded in the worship experience of the congregation.
Speaker 2:So good, Jack. Closing comments.
Speaker 3:No, I agree, I mean that's. I think that's the key thing is, we worship God, we don't worship worship. And worship is an amazing means to hear God's word. We should take it serious, we shouldn't be reckless with it, but we should also demonstrate radical hospitality to the community with it as well. So that's what I'm praying for for every healthy church to embrace that posture.
Speaker 4:I'm into that.
Speaker 2:This was so fun, brother. We'll have to have you back on A lot more than can be said. I love getting into the history of the liturgy. I'm a history guy from way back in the day, so it was fascinating. If people want to connect with you, brother, how can they do so?
Speaker 4:They can connect with me through my email buresonk at csledu or go to the seminary's website wwwcsledu and spit it out. Connect with me through that as well, you're awesome.
Speaker 2:Thanks for hanging with us today. Listener, please like, subscribe, comment. I'm sure we'll get some comments and hopefully the comments lead us to unity, lead us to. And if you've got a difference of opinion, man, shoot me an email, talman at cglchurchorg, and we'll have you on. You got a difference of opinion. I think the church needs to get better at listening, caring for one another, disagreeing agreeably and centering us by the Spirit and the Word on the mission of God. God's call to get all of his kids back. It's a good day. Go and make it a great day. Wonderful work, dr Burrison. Thanks, jack. God bless guys.
Speaker 4:My pleasure. Thanks, Tim.
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