Lead Time
Lead Time
The Wittenberg Project: Mission, Collaboration, and Growth in the LCMS
Tim and Jack welcome Tyree Toney (aka Lex Lutheran) to discuss his transition from a Baptist background to confessional Lutheranism, the Wittenberg Project, and opportunities for growth and enhanced mission within the LCMS.
• Lex shares his journey from a Baptist upbringing through Catholicism and Methodism before finding his home in confessional Lutheranism
• The Wittenberg Project began as an online effort to provide Black Lutheran representation and theological perspective
• Discussion of collaboration opportunities between LCMS congregations rather than operating independently
• Exploring the tension between traditional and contemporary worship while maintaining Lutheran distinctives
• Insights on how Lutheran churches can better welcome people across different cultural backgrounds
• Addressing the challenges of the Lutheran "brand" and whether to emphasize or downplay denominational identity
• The importance of building an online presence for Lutheran theology in a digital-dominant world
• Reflections on congregational growth strategies and learning from innovations in other denominations
God, doubt, and proof walk into a podcast... it goes better than you’d expect!
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This is Lead Time.
Speaker 2:Welcome to Lead Time, tim Allman, here with Jack Kauberg. It's a beautiful day to be alive, jack, you feeling all right? We've been talking about your allergies and stuff. Pray for Jack's allergies. Jesus answers prayers and he wants Jack's allergies to be taken care of. So I know you're headed on a trip as well. You feeling good?
Speaker 3:I'm going to Antigua in a couple days, where there's zero allergies. I'm looking forward to that I can find that place.
Speaker 2:How do you know that there's zero? I gotta challenge that, jack I I I went online and looked for.
Speaker 3:Well, I have to be fair. It may be that they're saying zero allergies is because they have no means of counting it. That might be. That might be true.
Speaker 2:I didn't even know where antigua was. I'm sure it's a beautiful spot, but down in the where is it down by? So right?
Speaker 3:yeah, so if you go to like, like, if you're going out towards the dominican republic, out towards, you know, east, towards the caribbean, this is like further east, and so it's kind of a remote, fairly remote ish island compared to some of the other islands and it really has a more remote caribbean type of vibe to it, which I'm really looking forward to. Yeah, so, yeah, happy anniversary 25. Thank you.
Speaker 2:Jack and Marta. Today we get the privilege of hanging out with a man you may have seen on YouTube and he was so gracious. We were in conversation and say, hey man, let's just come on and get to know one another and have a chat. This is Lex Lutheran. Lex, how you doing Now. Lex Lutheran is not truly your last name. Your last name is Tony, right, tyree, tony, but you go by Lex, is that right?
Speaker 4:Yes, yes, yes, my son's name is Lex actually, so it's not like a far-fetched name. I get referred to by my son's name because kids pretty much rule the day. So if you're Stephanie's father, that, oh, they're Stephanie's dad. There's this, there's this. So, yeah, I do go by Lex. That's how I'm pretty much known in most circles.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, so Lex is a member at Mountain View Lutheran Church in Las Vegas, derek Clem, a longtime friend of mine, and we're going to start out first before we get into your ministry and kind of the Wittenberg Project and all of that. Just tell people kind of your journey through you know other means of hearing about Jesus, following Jesus all the way to confessional Lutheranism here in the LCMS. Man, I'm glad Jesus led you on that journey. Would you tell that story, lex?
Speaker 4:Oh man, that's a long story so I'll give the cliff note version. So there's never been a day that I didn't grow up knowing Jesus. My family is real into the faith and things of that nature, but it's more so a Baptisty type lens. So I grew up with that and that's fine, you know. But from there you end up getting Baptist and you end up getting dancing Baptist Some people call them Pentecostals and then you get hidden Baptist, what some people call non-denominational 007s. So overall it's a Baptist world. You know what I'm?
Speaker 3:saying Is that why you call them that yeah?
Speaker 4:it's 007s. You don't care about doctrine. You ask them to be baptized. They're like no, no, hold up, hold up, Matter of fact, your baptism doesn't count, because you were spring, so really well, no, I mean that's like.
Speaker 4:No, that's their doctrine. I'm not saying they're not brothers, I mean I'm just calling a spade a spade. So, um, from there I went to a Catholic high school. So, going to a Catholic high school, I got to do liturgy and various things and we had religion class every year from I introduced to Methodism and then, um, this is the fast fast track, you know what I'm saying. Yeah, uh, and as an adult I started wanting to. Um, I hate to say, like, know what I believe, I knew what I believed already. I wanted to actually read the Bible myself and not on some like. I have a better interpretation, everybody, but it's a like. I should be in the word, I should be covered in the word and stay in the word.
Speaker 4:So, as that happened, I started running into things where it's like this doesn't really go with what I was hearing, and I actually ran into my Lutheran I'm trying to make that part be the emphasis in other malarkey stuff. I had a coworker and he was telling me how he grew up Lutheran and, um, he was telling me how. He asked me a question. He knew I was reading john wesley. I was reading various things about babies being baptized and methodists do baptize babies. But I came with the classic baptist rebuttals because like, who were they repenting to? Were they talking to? Like, why? Now, baptism doesn't say things of that nature? That's what what we're taught. And people realize that that's literally the landscape of what goes on out there. So I hop online on Twitter. I started trolling a couple of Lutheran pastors and I ran into one who likes to engage and we actually started talking and fellowshipping and basically through those conversations, through those dialogues, I ended up getting more deeper into confessional Lutheranism. And my daughter was attending another church in Las Vegas. Anybody wants to visit Mountain Views where I'm at, but there's Lamb of God. She was going to school there. I met with that pastor a couple of times and one day I went to two churches. I went to my Methodist church.
Speaker 4:After that service I left, I went to the Lutheran service and I noticed a stark difference. I wasn't focused on performance. I wasn't focused on it's up to me to change the world. I'm not saying we shouldn't be involved in the world, don't get me wrong. But my focus was on Christ crucified. When I left there, my eyes were firmly planted on Christ's completed work. For me, it wasn't based on me turning the cross into a ladder. It wasn't focused on that at all, and it got to the point where I realized I couldn't, I had to, I had no choice. And lo and behold, lutheran was added to the last name.
Speaker 2:So good, man. I love that story so much. Jack, you've got a similar story Now. My mind was going all right, who's the pastor in the LCMS that I'm going to take a guess? I don't know this part of your story. I'm a, and I could be wrong. Brian Wolf Mueller, Was that one of the?
Speaker 4:guys. No, no, no, no. I know Brian Wolf Mueller, though. No, he wasn't. He wasn't a pastor. So I was interacting with pastors I ended up interacting with, so I'm I know a lot of people at 1517, but this was before 1517. So back in those days, daniel Henry Price I was going back and forth with him, not to mention also this is back when Dr Cooper he just had a podcast he didn't have visuals yet On his first audio podcast he actually read the question that me and a guy named Dave submitted. You know what I'm saying. So this is kind of back then, and interacting with them and, more so, dialogue back and forth with the 1517 guys before 1517 came to be led me down this path.
Speaker 2:So good, well, welcome buddy. I'm so glad the Holy Spirit I love your jacket, by the way, that's pretty For those that aren't watching on YouTube. We, the luther rose going on. We got the holy spirit. Does, yeah, cross here and there's a cross there. It is. Did you make that? Yeah, do you make that like original design?
Speaker 4:it looks like, yeah, yeah, so um, I won't be here self-marketing but um, me and um pastor dylan, dylan campbell and and the artist Christian hip hop artist, flame. We have a podcast called the Study, and so me and Flame designed these. So when we're recording, we have something that symbolizes, because this is kind of how we designed the looping rules or our scheme. On it, people change colors and that's how we came up with this design. So Extranose Academy is where we can find the study at.
Speaker 2:So cool.
Speaker 3:I've been on there a few times. You guys do good work.
Speaker 4:Thank you, I appreciate it, thank you.
Speaker 2:All right. Well, let's get into the Wittenberg Project. You're rolling it, your hopes for it. Tell us the origin story of the Wittenberg Project, lex.
Speaker 4:The origin of the Windward Project. So, um, the I think he's the president of our district, gibson, I think his name is. Yeah, president Mike Gibson, yep, mike Gibson. He came and spoke in my church a while ago and he was talking about something like um, cross-cultural ministries and this and this. I have no idea what he was talking about. So I raised my hand and said, yo, so what's going on across cultural ministries? Like, how are you? To me it meant reaching out to other cultures, and his response kind of I'm going to lie kind of annoyed me. It was well, what do you think we should do that?
Speaker 1:literally was the answer and.
Speaker 4:I'm like I'm not the one with the PowerPoint presentation talking about it, saying these words Like how, that's like someone doing a presentation on NASA building a rocket ship, and I'm like man, how'd you do that? How do you think we did that, you know? But beyond that, um, I left there and um I was just, I was already kind of known through various social media aspects and then I realized for myself that, um, there really was no like um black Lutherans online in a sense for social presence in general, to the point where someone can get a aspect of saying that you'll hear all these, this talk going on, and a lot of times people like the LCMS, people Wells, and they get dismissed as, oh, those are the good old boys, that's why they feel that way. No, it's not.
Speaker 4:A lot of times people have a valid point. So, in a sense, on my first ever thing I did on my channel, it was literally just me talking about the ELCA plenary seven, and that's one of the points I made is is I'm not a pastor, I'm just a lay person who loves theology. But in the Lutheran tradition we have people other people than just you can't just brush off. You can't just say, ah, the good old boys. No, I agree with them. Let's talk.
Speaker 4:So that's how it started. And from there, um, it just transp, transpired. I ended up meeting another person, um anastasius, who, um helped me a couple videos he would do, and we just started putting videos out there, engaging with other people, to show that there is sure we're not, as we know, lcms 96 percent white, but that one percent strong, you know, saying like I have something to say. Even if I am the only 1%, I still got something to say, you know. So, in that regards, that's how it started, and from there it transformed into actually not just being something I rant on, my thoughts and things going on to more so a sense of where I'm interviewing pastors, I'm talking about issues and things of that nature going forward. So that's how that started. And then I, more so primarily focus on Exxon Oats Academy with Lane, but my personal one is Wittenberg Project. That's how I kind of do my operations.
Speaker 2:So good. I should have asked before what's your husband, father, vocation? But then in the marketplace, are you out in the marketplace at all? What's that? I'm in the marketplace baby. Anybody looking single hey, oh, you're in that market, okay, okay, uh, what's your, what's your job?
Speaker 4:lex, you have a job outside of being in that market. Okay, hey, jim, you're great. He opened that up. Sound like that, didn't it? It sounded like are you in the marketplace? You're single. What's your man? Hey, fun in the sun. I know arizona. What's your man? Hey, fun in the sun. I know Arizona's crazy man. I'll come out there, you know.
Speaker 1:I am an accountant.
Speaker 4:So basically I count casinos' monies that they don't share with people and that's pretty much it. Man, I'm an accountant. It's kind of high up, like I've been one for Bellagio one of. I'm an accountant. It's pretty kind of high up, like I've been one for Bellagio, hope of the big ones, but now I work for another one. So that's my actual vocation day to day. That's cool.
Speaker 3:We got way more in common. I got involved doing church work through finance oh wow.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, that's really funny man. Yeah, all right, let's get into LCMS. So you've been in the LCMS as a member? Say how many years now.
Speaker 4:Oh man, I would say as an actual member, 10 years.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 4:But before that I would say I've been invested in the theology of it for more than 13, something like that years Gosh.
Speaker 2:Okay, Good, Great, Awesome. That sets good context as you look at the broader landscape. I mean we've been very kind of to the point on a number of things that we see as opportunities for growth in the LCMS as we carry the mission and message of Jesus out to a dark and dying world. As you look at it, how do you categorize some of our biggest opportunities for growth trends that you think we ought to see change there? Lex?
Speaker 4:We briefly talked about this on email when we first met. I think that a lot of it. I think, when it comes to opportunities for growth and I know a lot of times people focus on growth in a diversity type people and everybody else like literally it's a, it's a gang of youth out there from all spectrums history that need to find out that we have the most accurate and biblical confession, and I think that falls more so on the church level. To be honest, like me, personally, I think that we need let me backtrack me, coming from a more baptist background. They don't. Their big thing is being independent. I know you guys know that, but a lot of times other people don't, like they won't realize the difference between um setups and churches, and when I see how they grow and how they engage the communities, they don't have big brother behind them that they're going to ask the president of their independent or their 99 or you know, like baptists are independent but the sbc is a denomination, pretty much.
Speaker 4:But I won't really go there, but they take it on their self, where they'll even partner with some other church to let's do these events together, just to get the word out about us more Like you'll see. Here's an example. You'll see John Piper and MacArthur do a conference together.
Speaker 3:They aren't friends, they hate each other Okay so
Speaker 2:you get what I'm saying. They aren't friends.
Speaker 4:They don't agree on a lot of things. They hate each other, right, but they don't agree on everything. Oh, okay, so you get what I'm saying. Yep, back off, he doesn't play that. You know what I'm saying? Mm-hmm, but for the sake of getting their heterodox theology out there, they'll come together. I'm sorry, man, I don't throw punches, I. That's pretty much why the name Lex is my son's name, but it took off Lex Luthor. It is what it is, but they will get together for the sake and the good of that. Now, pure doctrine is important.
Speaker 4:So I'm not saying we need to go partner with some Anabaptists. I'm not saying that at all, but what I'm saying in regards to the local level we have, like my church, mountain View, there's another church like eight to ten miles away further west. We don't do things together and a lot of other people in church I see they don't really. They all operate as theirself and it's like we need to pull the resources we do have on the local level and we can't always look, look what's matthew harrison think, or is daddy gonna say yes, and actually get out there and do it, put the ground or my neighborhood belt to. We need to get out there, you know, and and be active. That's, that's the main thing I see.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's wow we're in an interesting animal in our church body, because we are very congregational, right, yeah, but the pastors are a little bit more, a little bit more hierarchical, let's say, than your typical baptist kind of uh right, collaboration, right, uh, and so it's kind of like we're two things at the same time independent and, right, um, unionized, unionized, yeah, at the same time, and sometimes it gets awkward to realize where those boundaries are and where. You know where, where, where do we have permission? And you know where, where? Should we just assume that we have authority on stuff? And sometimes that's a messy dance, it is.
Speaker 2:It is. I mean, if we were now, this is ideal world. We don't live in the ideal world, we live in the real, what is right now. But if you say we're starting a denomination and we want to grow and we want to reach as many different people as possible say here in the East Valley, vegas, etc. Phoenix, right, so you would probably have one brand that had multiple locations with multiple preachers. This is one way you could strategize. And we're getting killed in the non-to-non multi-site world. Here we just down the road and this is not a competitor. There's, although we are prideful in the appropriate sense of our confession, our lutheran confession, but there's a new competitors.
Speaker 2:there we go, that's fine, that's fine well, they're bringing a different, a different gospel right. Um, it's all under the lord we and we can get into the details there, but we differ in the sacraments primarily right, and and maybe the way the word works. But, um, they just launched a campus right down the road from us Lex Opening day, 2,000 people there, and they'll be sustaining a new campus and they're thinking at a scale that is way beyond us. My doctorate was in the traits and characteristics of pastors who collaborate in mission. I know that's a mouthful, but the ultimate hope is basically what you're saying.
Speaker 2:Pastors and churches should work together are actually the infrastructure of the way circuits are organized. We're supposed to be collaborating but I did research across the synod this was about seven, eight years ago and it was looking for stories of collaboration, even building towards scale and kind of shared ministry to reach people in all different rural to suburban and urban places and found few to none, no stories around strategic circuits getting together for forums, convocations, doing their thing, encouraging on new starts, all that kind of stuff. It doesn't happen. And my basic, the end of it, was the circuit visitor training has not been appropriately missionally oriented toward coming together, unifying around our common confession and maybe even strategizing. And you could do this with multiple brands, multiple types of churches, saying, hey, we're all going to come and share these operations, we're going to build some scale, like we have so many different churches.
Speaker 2:There's some large churches here in the East Valley, but we're not functionally partnering together towards scale. Now, I guess I could challenge that to a degree, because we've got Concordia plans and a number of us serving and we have this kind of wider umbrella of services RSOs and synod and there's a lot of benefit to those as well. But when the rubber hits the road, based on circuits and congregations, pastors working together you're exactly right. We're supposed to be congregational and collaborative. But there's a competitive element, even within churches in the LCMS and it hurts our mission. So that's fascinating.
Speaker 3:Let me add to the critique a little bit here, because in my experience the strong, tight LCMS identity means that we tend to when we talk, we're talking to ourselves and we're not necessarily collaborating outside of ourselves, which means a lot of times we're missing some of the innovation that's happening outside of our context, like.
Speaker 3:One of the things I can say about the non-denom churches is they've mastered scale, they've mastered operations, they've mastered marketing, they figured out how to engage with large peoples and do things much more efficiently than we do, and there's opportunities for us to learn from that, while also maintaining the same theology that we have in place.
Speaker 3:I'm not advocating about anything, about getting rid of our liturgy or our theology, but you can learn a lot of practical things by crossing that denominational barrier. I'm going in a couple of weeks to a conference with a bunch of they call it executive pastors, but it's basically the same job description I have as executive director and I'm going there and I'll be the only Lutheran represented there and I'm learning about staffing and HR and, again, marketing and how do you scale multi-site, and these are all things that have been mastered outside of our context because these churches had the freedom to do that there's a lot of freedom to innovate there, and they've taken that freedom and they've gone. You know, they've like just flown with it, right, and it's really cool to be able to learn from that, and I feel like some of that is missing in our particular context. I don't know what your thoughts are on that. Yeah, lex Well.
Speaker 4:I'll say first, the reason I call it competition is because, from my point of view, if I see a kid with an ice cream stand or lemonade stand two houses down or, let's say, four blocks over, and I decide I'm gonna go set my lemonade stand up or ice cream stand two houses from him, oh, I'm not really here to compete. No, no, we're all brothers. You saw me here, I've been here for years upon years and you decide to come literally a rock throw away. So I understand the, I understand the heart behind not viewing them as competition, because we're brothers in the faith and we'll all rejoice with the lord one day.
Speaker 4:I'm not trying to downplay that, but when someone slaps you in the face, they can't act like they missed a high five, like it's blatant. You literally show up right there. You see this church already here and you come there. So at some point I think we have to stop. We have to kind of be honest with ourself and say, yeah, we love them, we're all good, danny, but that's, that's competition. Then, as far as the innovation part, you're right. When it comes to marketing and business, it's hard because you're like going against people who have no rules. When they have no confessional standards, they'll do whatever they want to the rich people. Like literally they'll have people flying in with zip lines to the pulpit, if it's sometimes very.
Speaker 3:Yeah, sometimes in a very reckless way, right, right.
Speaker 4:Right, I'm not saying they always do that, but there's nothing that stops them from doing that. It's not like they're going to get called to the floor of their denomination, right, or something like that. It's it's okay. So, considering that, and they have all the innovation in the resource not resources, but ideas there's nothing limiting them. It's almost as if we kind of have to arm and arm with our brothers and say, I know this area isn't part of your reach out, but I'm doing this event. If you could bring 10 kids from yours, I have 10 kids here, now it's 20. Now the event seems more of a success and more impactful to the kids that are here. That also translates to things that adults are doing. We don't outreach. If two churches bring five, five people and I have seven yo, that's 17 people. We seem like a legit gang, you know. So, yeah, um, that's just my thought on that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, that's good. Um, you know, my thoughts on collaboration was between lcms congregations. You know that I do, but you guys kind of talked for.
Speaker 4:Like you hit one point and then jack had another point. In regards to meeting with the different groups, I want to touch on both of them. I got a chance to so good, so I would yeah.
Speaker 2:We should reach out, amen. I would add that the, not in the non-denom, I'm OK using a word competitor, I think the standard I'm OK with it. I stand because because we our doctrine, like we, we have the appropriate sense of the revealed, uh, revealed God through word and sacrament, through means, passive faith, et cetera, right. But for for other churches in the LCMS, if we're not going to work together with them, we should at least see them as worthy rivals in the same team. You know you're all on the same team and one one teammates, kind of spurring one another off. Um, but I don't see all, all of the all of the stories being told. Maybe this is one of my, one of my frustrations. Um, I don't know that all of the stories of individual team members Now we're using individual team member as one church are being told in our respective. I don't think we see each other as worthy rivals.
Speaker 2:In your context, I got something to learn from you. Um, I think it's a more narrow view of what it means to be Lutheran and we are narrow on our theology. But as it's getting out, as some LCMS churches are experiencing growth, I don't think all of those stories of what that looks like and how we can be faithful and very mission-oriented for the community. I don't think all those stories are being told Frankly. That's one of the reasons why Lead Time exists is to share some of those stories. Praise, be to God, right? So hey, let's get into points of doctrine a little bit more. What points of doctrine do you feel we're neglecting and I think this was probably from a YouTube comment or something that you made In some of our modern circles. First, how would you define those who are in the LCMS, who are also in modern circles, and what points of doctrine may we be missing or neglecting.
Speaker 4:When you say modern circles, are you talking about, like, divine versus contemporary worship, or are you talking about a rural versus urban setting? I'm not sure. Yeah, yeah, okay, you say modern.
Speaker 2:Sure, yeah, let's just talk worship. Then, those that maybe are more modern in their worship expression or contemporary, that's the word that gets thrown around right Versus those that are strictly traditional, go ahead.
Speaker 4:Okay, in regards to that, I have a unique view on that being that I come from, like I said, the spectrum of great songs. I don't know why I miss it, you know what I'm saying but I do think that something's something RDA For when it comes to. Okay, I'll start it off with this at some point, the organ was Contemporary. The organ isn't some holy, divine instrument like the tambourine is.
Speaker 3:actually, if we want to play that game, the tambourine is actually More instrument than the organ, right right, so yes.
Speaker 4:Technical. But what I'm saying Is is the organ's fine, but as long as the music or that part of the liturgy is Christ-centered, good theology and it's reverent. You know, I don't really see an issue with that and I kind of. This is just me elaborating because I know some people's thoughts when they see a person of my pigmently abundant self in front of them. I'm not saying people should get up there and be rapping or some hardcore metal band. I'm not saying that you know what I'm saying. But I am saying there are different structures of Christian worship, music and song that don't have the organ as lead, that might have the piano, might have a little Spanish guitar going, might have somebody singing in different modes. Because even now me and Dellen laugh and joke about it that my natural rhythm count of one, two, one, two doesn't always fit the German hymnal. Sometimes I don't know if they're going by the three count or what, but it catches me off guard. So in regards to that, people should be a day forward.
Speaker 4:But I do think there are standards, even in contemporary, that define this as Lutheran Things like I'll say, like the Lord's Prayer, confession, absolution, the Nicene Creed, us connecting ourselves with the historic faith.
Speaker 4:So, even though you might be singing some great new contemporary worship song, these things still should be inserted into the liturgy, not taken away, because we'll never out non-denom to non-denom. We have our distinctiveness, I see. And one thing when I was reading through the Book of Concord last night I believe I was reading through the section on the Mass and it stuck with me when it said that last night I believe I was reading through the section on the Mass and it stuck with me when it said that I actually have it right here. Desire to continue not to reject the wholesome, beneficial and historic worship, like those type of things I do think define us. Sure, the things I mentioned aren't in the Book of Chronicles where it says you have to do the Nicene Creed, but there are things in our tradition and, per the Thessalonians verse, we do respect the traditions passed down. That I think, even in the contemporary setting, as long as we're maintaining those key distinctives, there should be some freedom in that sense.
Speaker 2:Hey, don't disagree, there's not much to add to what you said. I think we could agree around and this is hard because we get into different contexts but a general commitment to the order of the divine service, regardless of instrumentation. I think there could be some agreement there and you from the invocation of the benediction and everything, everything in between.
Speaker 4:I think that would ease the arguments up a lot. There was that that that base foundation of saying divine or contemporary, these aspects are definitional in regards to how we operate. You I'm saying, and I mean we already are talking about law, gospel, christ crucified, those things you know, we're not saying, but you give us out more.
Speaker 3:So, in a sense, of what the topics are going around, so if you come to a contemporary service in our context, you're going to experience, uh, most of what you would consider the liturgical elements of a liturgical service.
Speaker 3:You're going to have the Lord's Prayer, you're going to have the confessions, you're going to have confession, absolution, you're going to have the Lord's Supper and you're going to have a little bit more of a casual environment where people are not dressing up, pastors not wearing robes, right and you're going to hear a mix of songs that you might hear on the radio contemporary songs that you might hear on the radio, and actually this is pretty cool New songs, lutheran authored songs, because we've got this incredible songwriters initiative coming out of Concordia, irvine, where there's some really incredible contemporary Lutheran worship songs which are just absolutely fantastic.
Speaker 3:And the key thing is that we think in terms of preservation of liturgy, and liturgy teaches, it teaches and it confesses, right, and so that's the beauty of it. I can go on and on about the power of memorizing the Lord's Prayer, because it's taught in worship every single time. I think you know I'll give the story. I was trying to comfort my mother-in-law, giving her some gospel in her final hours on earth, and I couldn't tell that she could recognize anything that I was saying. But the moment I said the Lord's Prayer she was able to join me or at least, you know, kind of participate in it, because it had been burned into her brain because of liturgy Right and that's the beauty of it.
Speaker 4:We have contemporary at my church, we have divine service and a later one, temporary. One thing I will mention is a lot of times we have these conversations like this and it's a beautiful thing. We have a lot of cradle Lutherans as pastors and all throughout the whole Synod, but because they haven't been in the wild, they don't realize how sacred that Lord's prayer is, meaning that like we'd never say it. As someone who grew up going to churches, different types of churches my parents got divorced when I was five, so I have my grandmother's church, I have my grandma's church, I have a church my mom went to and my dad was a freelance Okay, but numerous churches. We never said the Lord's Prayer.
Speaker 4:And one of the key distinctives and it's so powerful, especially coming from the wild is the aspect of me going to church and hearing a five year old, 85 year old, everybody in unison, our father, who aren't in heaven, on everybody's heart and grain in them, doing that. And that's not something because people grew up in it. They don't, you're not used to it. It's like, yeah, if you eat new york steak all the time or wagyu steak all the time, you don't appreciate it, unless you had some spam one day, or some chuck steak and you're like man, you don't know what you have like. Oh, this is just wagyu. Nah bro, that's bro. That's why I go Appreciate that.
Speaker 2:I think that point is so well taken. Jack, do a follow up. What's that? Oh, yeah, okay, I got a follow up. That's such a good point for those of us. I mean, third gen, okay, you do the divine. No, God is actually serving you, you just sit and receive. This is the fact of divine service, and we could just orient whether it's modern instrumentation or organ or whatnot like maybe this is the divine service and teaching more what that means God's serving us, passive faith, you, you sit and get and then, by the spirit's power, you get and go. So, man, I love, I love all the, the word pictures you give, lex, you have a gift with words and it's just beautiful. So you mentioned, as long as it's reverent. What does reverent mean to you for worship?
Speaker 4:Reverent, I don't want to see a person in the pulpit with pasties on doing that. I don't want to see a pastor cussing from the pulpit. I don't want. I mean, these sound like far-fetched examples in our realm but going the wild. Sometimes we think the grass is greener on the other side, but I hate to tell you that that's astroturf, it's spray painted. That's not real grass. It's not real grass. You know like you'll see people. There's no sacredness to it. You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 4:Like a song might be heretical, might have notions of that in it. You know what I'm saying. Like a song might be heretical, might have notions of that in it. It might not even be about God. It might be about you, my season's coming, my breakthrough and things of that nature, where Christ is just a means. He just enables me to go get this bag. He's not really focused on forgiveness of sins. It's the power I'm getting from him. So when I say reverent, I mean honoring God in his correct place and realizing that without him there's nothing I can do. I am receiving from him I am looking at him in his majesty on the cross. I am forgiveness of sins. I am thankful. One thing I like people say is that you can get the God, even if the pastor has a horrible sermon? They say he loses his voice, he starts doing sign language. No one knows sign language. You'll still get the gospel from the liturgy. You'll still get the gospel from the song. Reverend, I think, falls into that line.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I like to joke that confession and absolution is there, just in case the sermon doesn't land.
Speaker 4:Right.
Speaker 2:Well, let's, let's take some use this word. I had a member come in and he was. He was wondering about our use in a few sermons of speaking against the sin of pride I think words are kind of funny and he was like I don't I about left the church, pastor, because you keep saying pride is a bad thing. And I was like, well, what do you mean? And he goes well, I always say, like for our girls he's a coach that you should have pride in your work and you should have pride in your school and those types of things, or even pride in your country. And so I was like, oh my gosh, he was talking about the appropriate sense of an identity centered in love, around building up his young women in the faith. And I was saying pride is like I don't need God, I don't need anybody else. That's a sinful sense of pride. Isn't it fascinating the way words work and they have to be defined, and I think sometimes we don't give enough attention and care for one another to walk through, define what you mean by that.
Speaker 2:I think too often and social media doesn't help us with this Lex, you know too often people.
Speaker 2:That's why, when you had some comments and we're going to get into some, some specifics here, like I don't know that we're saying, hey, I got to hear more about, about that, you got to come and I you hear, you hear from when Paul's doing his, his travels in the book of Acts, and while there were Gentiles I'm thinking of Festus and like, toward the end, hey, you got to come back.
Speaker 2:These government officials, they're like on the fence, they're kind of even thinking Christians are crazy. But there was something about Paul that said we got to hear you again. And I guess that, to land back on some hopes for the LCMS, that we would have the time and attention for our brothers and sisters in Christ who say things that, to our ears, just sound a little bit, a little bit off. You know, hey, make the phone call, make the call, get on the podcast. If you have a platform that you're kind of talking about stuff. We got to cross the aisle in the LCMS before we can unite in in mission and and defining what we mean by certain things in our context is very, very important. Anything to add to that Lex.
Speaker 4:Oh no, um, in that context, I definitely agree with you how you mentioned, for instance, how you reached out saying, hey, would you like to come on so we could talk, like you just did. What do you mean by reverend, rather than assume and just run off, not saying you would, but in that conversation, and let's say, not put best construct on or even put best construct on. My definition might not even apply to your best construct on, or even put best construct on, I might not have. My definition might not even apply to your best construct. Maybe my aspect was horrible. You know, saying you're running around, that's actually good ass, look, and you can. You, a person, can actually delve in and give you example or clarify. I totally agree with what you're saying, that's it lex.
Speaker 3:I got a question for you because you and I have some things in common. We came to Lutheranism later in life. I came from a Pentecostal background. Hey got the answer. What do you think? What do you think from your perspective, from your own life? What do you think Lutheran churches can do? I think we keep the really great liturgy core to it, whether it's contemporary or traditional. But what do you think Lutheran churches need to be doing to create hospitality for people across cultures, to people that don't have a German background. What does it look like to do that type of outreach and to create hospitality for people so that they can come in and they can get an experience, this theology experience, community with other Lutherans?
Speaker 4:So, due to the things I do online, I kind of run into this a lot. To be honest with you, yeah, and I'll say I hate to say truly believe what we say, but realize that, for instance, I'll use a Pentecostal example Majority of time people think that people who aren't Lutheran are going to have a hard time believing that Christ is really present in the host and the wine. Like people who are coming from a Baptist, non-lutheran background. Like it's going to be, like that is a stumble about for a lot of people, but for Pentecostals, as that example you're mentioning, they have no problem with those things. Like they believe the guy can make your foot grow. They'll watch it on TV all the time.
Speaker 4:Yep, no. So really stand there with your chest out, 10 toes down, and engage this conversation. We are working with scripture here, you know, and I won't say be bold, because people think bold means like you run up in their face like hey, come read this book of Concord, nah, but when you talk to them, know that you have the confidence that this is backed up by scripture and, unlike other people's confessions, ours has been vetted.
Speaker 4:Now we actually submitted the Augsburg, like yo, this is what we believe and then got feedback and a computation and they went back. So it's not just a statement of faith page that we stand upon in our historic tradition. So I think, in regards to making people feel welcome, it's being active enough to actually talk to them, engage them, really delve in and push back. Or, if they push back, don't take it personal, engage and go forward and just really have that as a missional mindset. Now, everybody's not an evangelist. I get that. Everybody's not an officer pastor, but everybody communicates. If it's sign language, if it's, if it's conversation, man, if it's drawing pictures, however you want to do it, we communicate some way with each other and be open to those conversations with your neighbor.
Speaker 4:Me getting invited to Lutheranism was I'm five nine. It was a six foot two white dude from Milwaukee. You know what I'm saying. Like, yeah, he's driving a, driving a monster from Milwaukee. You know what I'm saying. Like he's driving a monster big truck. You know what I'm saying Like who would have thought? You know what I'm saying? Who would have thought? And what's funny is I go more towards Lutheran and he starts drifting towards viewing other things, but just by him mentioning to me his thoughts about baptism. It led to conversations, so.
Speaker 3:Lex. Priest is every believer's identity. Isn't that wild. Every believer is part of the priesthood right, so priest is part of our identity, whether we're good at it or not.
Speaker 4:Isn't that interesting.
Speaker 2:Whether we're good at it or not, we got to have you back on.
Speaker 2:But we're going to close with conversation around a couple podcasts. Man, if one, I appreciated you just taking the time to listen deeply and give your feedback and carry the conversation forward and I don't know how this is going to go. Frankly, some of the details on maybe some of the stuff you're going to jog my memory and I'm going to be like, all right, yeah, I could have said or we could have done or whatnot, but specifically we're going to talk about my friend and so, just full transparency, like Greg is one of my, one of my friends, greg, while they're both my brothers in Christ, but I know Greg beers for the last couple of years and and walked as a friend more closely with him through some of his, some of his struggles and their eventual exit from the LCMS and, you know, very sad on a variety of levels. So I just have a little bit of a little bit of emotion because I've had like way more conversation behind the scenes than what was obviously public with my brother there and then, and then Greg Manning Greg hosted the Large Church Network Pastors Conference a year and a half ago in New Orleans and so, yeah, two different, very different conversations, but what would be they were?
Speaker 2:I mean, the context of both is very, very different. But what, what was your take generally on on pastor Greg and his congregation and, and, unfortunately, kind of how that whole whole story kind of unraveled? Lex.
Speaker 4:So first thing I'll say about pastor Greg Bears is his outreach is amazing, him being able to actually walk through the neighborhood. I know people who've been to his church, who actually been out there with him talking to homeless people and sharing the gospel people. So by no means am I not am I bashing that you know saying. But I will say that during the conversation and it's, it's, that's nice. You guys are friends, you know saying.
Speaker 4:But when you're talking to a friend sometimes things slide, like even one time jack had to clarify you don't hang your hat on baptism, you know, and he did clarify it, you know. But when he said that, um, he had a person not called, not ordained preaching from the pulpit, he made it seem as if it was like he just got up there to talk about um, foster care, that guy's. He and I went just because I'm like let me check this guy's church house. He was, he was after watching your podcast, he's had three full days of full sermons of literally it's not like a brief infomercial, infomercial of hey, we're doing this in the community for three or four minutes.
Speaker 4:It was like literally a violation of that statute that it might sound small to other people but considering, in a Pentecostal world you wouldn't have a cessationist in the pulpit. So literally we're having someone who might deny Christ's body and blood, who might deny the washing of regeneration, of baptism, who you're saying like, and he might actually hold to it, but as a person in the pews I don't know if this guy I didn't sign up for, whatever his confession is, to be leading me and the downplaying of that I kind of took personal like no, that's not okay, that's not okay. And if anyone wants to check, it's like three dates, it's all in 2023, like going from I think it's from like May to September.
Speaker 2:Did Greg? You can educate me here, because I haven't looked at those sermons or non-sermons, whatever you're supposed to define it. You can educate me here, because I haven't. I haven't looked at those uh, sermons but um, or non-sermons, whatever you're supposed to define it. But did he? Did he kind of set it up at all, or did he kind of wrap in and around? Cause from time to time there may be a ministry leader that comes up and I may have like a conversation. I've interviewed some people before during a sermon time and kind of had a pre and a post law gospel kind of declaration, you know, but we don't, that's, that's by far the exception for us. So so yeah, did he kind of set it up and then close it down? Or how did it go?
Speaker 4:You know Well from watching the live stream and I try not to watch ones that are just like a clip of the sermon. You know what I'm saying. So, yeah, the full hour, 15. And this is no, not not to him, but he was out of town so that can be rough, so I'm not saying that he they might have been familiar with him, you know from previous things, but the way it was, it wasn't set up. There was no introduction of he's here to talk about this, that's in our ears, of this, you know. So there was that aspect and then, like the, I get it, he prays a lot. I don't want to downplay that, but the removal of the Lord prayer, as if those are comparable, or that we talked about earlier, the power of the Lord's prayer, yeah, Like that right there.
Speaker 4:It's like, and then and then, like I said those things when I started watching his service, a couple of them. I don't see no confession, like no creeds. You know what I'm saying. It's like there's things that are distinctive to us which all culminated when he said I'm not in the business of making Lutherans. So, yeah, I don't want to take up all the time, but to me, yeah, that's why all those things are missing, because to me that's I don't.
Speaker 4:For instance, tim, I know you're a pastor, Pastor Allman, if you meet someone who's not a Christian, you're going to teach him to what you consider the most faithful, true expression of the faith is. You're a Lutheran pastor. So I presume you think that the most true, faithful form is Lutheranism. In a sense, you're making Lutherans. Now, there's no way around that to say I'm not in the business of making Lutherans. So are you teaching them Amish doctrine? Are you teaching like that made? No, it sounds nice when someone says it I'm not in the business of making this, but here's all the ingredients to make that. Those things all culminated to where I kind of had an issue with that and I get the Matthew 18 part, those things he was saying. I do feel that he possibly could have went to them also, not saying it would change anything. Just because someone's mad at me and they don't follow Matthew 18, I still can be the bigger person saying hey, I'm in the back row of the church today.
Speaker 2:Let's talk. That's good. One clarifying question and then a comment. Did that person that preached, you know, and I don't know the specifics did you hear anything that was like, oh my gosh, this is totally not Jesus or word, and I'm we're getting into the details now a little bit, but did that guest who came, did they lead them further away from Jesus in some sort of a heterodox format or did they lead them closer to and that's probably debatable, but, yeah, any.
Speaker 2:I know the risk, so I get the argument. The risk is always there, for sure, um, but if a person is talking around a certain opportunity to bring light and love into the community and they're looking at maybe the parable of the Good Samaritan or something like that, and they're teaching about how Jesus doesn't pass by, jesus, is that Good Samaritan and comes to us? Was there anything that was like oh, that's a question, because if so, then yeah, and if not, then I think it's not a normal practice, but it's based in that context and the pastor's desire to reach people in partnership with said ministry and get us people out in mission. I'm just curious if you think there was anything that was like whoa, this is whack.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I wouldn't say there's anything heretical. I will say that it wasn't a real law gospel dynamic. You know what I'm saying, and to me that's not even a fair critique, because we are our pastors, you guys are drilled and trained to this. Sermon has to be Christ crucified has to be a law gospel dynamic. It has to be. That's in our DNA, I shouldn't say our, but that's in you guys' DNA. So yeah, I guess it wasn't heretical, but it was a typical, probably non-denom type sermon, which I'm not saying it's heretical, I'm just saying that's it wasn't right, so I do have to say it wasn't that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, putting best construction on the. I'm not here to make Lutherans. I get your, I really really get your point and our values. So we've walked this. We've walked this line. Our values here are Jesus Christ, crucified, risen, reigning. It's Bible. We are people of the word. We're grounded in the word and then we're rooted in a Lutheran LCMS tradition. So Lutheran sometimes needs a brand overhaul. Maybe we'll kind of, before we get to Greg Manning's comments like Lutheran ELCA, all the struggles there, you know. And so what type of Lutheran are you? And so you do have to say no, I'm in the LCMS and if you're in the know then you know that it's a confessing conservative biblical church body body. But yeah, talk about the brand of kind of lutheranism, given the deep dive off into, well I would say even in many respects worse territory than your mainline non-denom in the elca today. So any comments about lutheranism as a, as a brand, if you will, lex as a brand.
Speaker 4:Um, hopefully I'm talking about essentially, you're engaging as an overall brand. It's a, it's a crapshoot, meaning that, like you're saying that elca is the biggest lutheran in america, if I recall right correct me if I'm wrong, you know. So it's almost as if we're not small, you know, and we're not their little brother, but truth is they're bigger. So the, the brand. A lot of times people hear lutheran, they think the I hate the word liberal or conservative but they think the liberal far side in that sense. And so it is something where we have to be strong in our identity, you know. But there is a way to talk to people. Like, for instance, when I talk to people about the faith, I don't really mention Lutheranism, but I do mention what we believe and confess. I might reference the book of Concord, and then that leads to them saying what do you mean? Article 4?
Speaker 3:Oh, yeah, and I think what Tim was getting at was that might be kind of how Greg was thinking in context of that that that he adheres to the confessional view of Lutheranism and believes that's Orthodox Christianity, but is holding that label very lightly.
Speaker 4:I'm still making this. I get what you're saying. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 3:But technically speaking, you definitely are yes, three plus one equals four, so is two plus two.
Speaker 4:So in the end we have to admit that we are making. We do hold this as the most correct, confessional, biblically accurate confession Like that part right there can't get minimized by saying I'm not making Lutherans, no, no, no I am.
Speaker 2:And in the end that's what I hope you become For sure and appropriate. Lutheranism, confessing Lutherans, yeah, confessional. Get to Jesus really really fast, get to grace really really fast. This is a community who's welcome in church, jack. All sinners, right, all sinners. We want everyone, whatever kind of baggage you come from, a non-denom, catholic, charismatic or none, right, n-o-n-e-s Doesn't matter, man, all sinners are welcome here. And Jesus came, for there's no more distinction. This is Galatians 3.28, right. No more Jew, gentile, slave, free, young, old, rich, poor, male, female.
Speaker 2:We're all one in Christ and the reason we're one is because we all sin and we all desperately need the mercy and grace that flows from the cross of Christ. So, all right, that's good. That's a good conversation with Greg, and, greg, I love you and praying for you and your mission in your community there in Arkansas.
Speaker 4:I love the work he does. Don't be wrong, I don't want to end on that note. His outreach reaching people who have no idea about Christ. A lot to learn and being able to get out there. Hey, salute you. I don't want to end on that note.
Speaker 3:You know and nobody's being critiqued, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2:For sure. Let's close with the Greg Manning critique. Greg is a pastor, very mission oriented, has a ministry pretty inner city in New Orleans. If you didn't listen to that podcast, you can go back and he also has site limitations as well. He's worked through a lot of struggles to bring and he's also been in the Black Clergy Caucus and a leader there in that community. So yeah, some opening comments around the Greg Manning podcast. Lex.
Speaker 4:So for me, I totally understand what he was saying in regards to dropping the Lutheran off in the church. I'm not saying I'm in favor of that or against it, but I understand. I understand as an African-American my whole life. I know people change nowadays, from Rachel Dozell, all that type of stuff. You've been here, no tan here. This is me in the winter. I've been German my whole life. Here we go, yeah, my whole life, every day.
Speaker 4:So I do understand that because I've talked to various, I know a good number of Lutherans. I've talked to people who are professors, pastors, and it shocked me that some of them don't realize that people aren't intimidated by the name Lutheran, but they do view it as we're not welcome sometimes. So, like literally, they'll be like, oh well, why do they feel that way? Who cares why? It's a fact. If someone walked into my house right now and slapped me, I don't care why you slapped me, we're fine, we're fine. I know it's not the most holy thing to say on the line right now, but I don't really care the why they're not welcome. In that sense I get why he would drop that name and why it would help to go from Gloria Day to Broadmoor. I do understand that. You know he had a lot of points in regards to diversity and things of that nature.
Speaker 4:Some of the pushback that I had from that is when he talked about saying the Black Curly Caucus, one of the main tenets was reaching basically black people, reaching the urban community. My answer to that is since when I hate to be rude about that, but I've been a Lutheran for 13 plus years and I only found out about them through Pastor Delwin Harris, and that was years later and I'm online Like I don't want to downplay what they try to do, but sure, instead of sitting there blaming, kind of go back to our original conversation about more ground level stuff. Everybody wants to blame senate, we need more money, we need more this. And then I look at where I'm from and I see all these independent churches doing it and it's like that what do we know? There's a thin line between reason and excuse and I think you hopped over and you're in the excuse section. Like being online the black curvy caucus. If you go to their website. We have a website there. Uh, they just got a website, it's and you're in the excuse section. Like being online the Black Curly Caucus if you go to their website. They just got a website. It's 2024 when they got one.
Speaker 4:The internet's been around. It's people who are voting age now since the internet came out, you just got a website, but you're here to reach the youth or Black people. We're not online. Is that the reason that doesn't make sense to me? The Is that the reason that doesn't make sense to me? The black convocation I did a YouTube search. Feel free to do one now if you like. You don't really see nothing pop up of past ones of them having a good time representing.
Speaker 4:It was to the point where me, being a new black Lutheran, I didn't go online and see any black Lutherans or you know, just to have a community in a sense, no presence online. So when I hear those things, it makes me wonder. Me wonder, like, like. You can't just put this on president matthew harrison desk, as if people are really struggling and striving out here for that like, and I don't want to just pick on them. You can go to black ministry's facebook page or black fruity caucus. On their facebook page. All they pretty much do is retweet the lcms ministry one like they. Last year they had for first Rosa Rosa Young. They had a memorial service at one of the churches down south for Mother Lutheranism.
Speaker 4:My comment was is how come y'all didn't tell people about this? I would have loved to watch, yeah, I would. You know, people don't even know that we had a black college. It's closed now. People don't even know and to say, oh well, they don't really give us funding. Why would I expect and this is not to put race too much on it, but I shouldn't expect someone who's not from my tradition, not from my cultural background, to be able to have more impact and more knowledge reaching my community than myself. So to sit here and point the finger all the time at dissenting other people when I'm not seeing no real Facebook presence, no YouTube presence, no Twitter presence, no online presence at all, really. But you're trying to. Your claim is that's the number one goal of it.
Speaker 4:I just well, it rubbed me the wrong way. Like, ask someone who was a black Lutheran who came in here and had to do his own thing and had to build from the ground up. Not saying we shouldn't have to Like, for instance and this isn't like spilling no tea but my friend flame. He's been to youth gallery, he's been on kfuo, he's at the convention, numerous other things. Has he been to black convocation yet? Oh, no, and I know the question will be well, has has he been invited and turned it down? Not the case? I could speak from that.
Speaker 4:Like I said, I'm literally in in the camp. You know I'm saying so. I think that and I don't want to sound bashful, but at some sense we have to take ownership and realize that now we have to do this, we have to get out there. The main reason I'm here today is because there was no presence and I had to. Like yo, there's bad people over here behind me. Youtube is free. Youtube is free. Don't tell me you need more money from the Sinai. You don't. You can get online and get a present. I'm patting myself on the back, but I got things that I did without playing with 7,000 views. I'm going to BPM and other conferences and there's people coming up who recognize me and I'm a nobody. By no means. You know what I'm saying. This guy, they're for uh, certified and everything.
Speaker 3:So that's my, hey, my, that's good jack, you respond and I'll respond a little more complex, but no, I I think that's where I was saying like the type of leadership that you and flame have been doing is precisely what's needed.
Speaker 3:I mean, people need to see lutheranism as something beyond a white racial identity religion, something that people of all different ethnic backgrounds, it's for everyone, it really is for everyone.
Speaker 3:The gospel is for everyone, the sacraments are for everyone, right, and that's where I just need you know, our church needs people with as much passion as what you and Flame have, and I think what you're seeing is like what it means to influence people has radically changed, right, I mean, I want to get into politics here, but political campaigns are different now than they were 20 years ago. Right, it's podcasts, it's online, it's the traditional media is not the thing that carries you anymore, and I think the same is true more and more with evangelism. Right, we need to have a more modern approach, and it's champions that are going to go online and share the faith boldly that I think are going to have the biggest, potentially the biggest catalytical impact of bringing you know, crossing traditional ethnic barriers. That's my perspective. So I think your criticism is fair in the sense that, like you know, we're just trying to replicate something that is not necessarily accessible to people, but just saying that it's oh, it's Black or it's Hispanic or whatever.
Speaker 2:right, it's got to be a bigger, broader initiative than that and I agree with that and I think the critique is fair and this is why we need to get better at doing both and saying and rather than but and. For those that have been in the African American community for any number of years and with generations of struggles, and sometimes we speak out of our wounds, right, we weren't, and this is what Greg would say. Pastor Manny, you know there have been opportunities for him to be in respective rooms and he's not been invited. So does it come across as kind of victim? Are there some wounds in that relationship with Synod? To be sure, what's going to win the day, lex? It's confession and absolution. It's saying I put the worst construction on this. I wasn't invited, I don't know why, and hopefully we can work toward honestly owning our contribution. We do a lot of work on like difficult conversations and stuff, and the quicker I get to own whatever my contribution is to the dysfunction in our relationship, the better man First, one of the cross wins.
Speaker 2:The local ministry needs to take responsibility for working toward unity and and reparation of those, repair, repairing those, those struggles that are, that are deep and race in the American landscape. It's, it's one of the one of the struggles that we got to work through and I, I like your point, though I like and this is kind of the heart of ULC Don't just and around leadership development, don't just argue and like just kind of moan and groan, right, just try some stuff, you know. Try to try to like, move out, out into the uncharted waters, right, and and try some stuff. That's the heart of everything we've been doing. We've not even gotten into leadership development but we just running, been running some tests and, you know, from time to time do we get a little frustrated because synod and, you know, conventions move slowly. I guess it is what it is, right, it's a 200-year-old church body that's been around and so you've got some structures and bylaws that you're just kind of working through and let's just keep working at it.
Speaker 2:I hear you know, from local church pastors to innovative leaders like yourself, let's just stay in conversation with the upward aim of reaching more people with the gospel. Can we all unite around that and our clear confession of word and sacrament, law and gospel and all the Lutheran tensions that? Yeah, it's like in me, lex. Yes, I went through the system, but this is how I articulate the faith, because it points people to Jesus, points people to grace, and so I just think we have some room for growth and I'm glad you bring up the Greg Manning podcast. We have room for growth in terms of confessing our sin to one another and receiving forgiveness. All of life is confession and absolution.
Speaker 2:And if Greg Pastor, Greg Manning want to reach out to you and have a conversation to clear anything up, I'm sure the door is wide open, right, Lex?
Speaker 1:If anybody wants to connect with you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 4:The door is wide open. To be honest, I reached out to the Black Curl of the Caucus and Black Ministry before I reached out. So I honestly doubt they will, because obviously it wasn't reciprocated. And I'm not saying that negatively, that's fine, you know what I'm saying. But it's hard to sit here and put best construct on and come to a different conclusion when it's I see no presence, I see no effort in that sense, and then I'm like, hey, I'm just happy to help any way. I can Maybe highlight your guys' sermons and this and this, and I get certain types of replies or certain types of replies and nothing goes forward. So the door should remain open as it is, you know, but the door shouldn't be closed. We're all brothers within this, amen.
Speaker 2:Amen, hey, if people want to connect with you, follow you, where can they do so?
Speaker 4:man. Um, you always can email me at uh uh Wittenberg PRJ at gmailcom. At gmailcom, I'm online, I'm on Twitter. I don't recommend you follow me, but Lex underscore Lutheran. Why don't you recommend?
Speaker 2:me to follow you on Twitter.
Speaker 4:What are?
Speaker 2:you doing on Twitter.
Speaker 4:Well, from this conversation here, y'all probably can see that I shoot from the hip. I'm going to talk, I'm going to say what I think you know.
Speaker 2:I enjoy you because I there is so much. This is why we could disagree. We could have probably found more things. We disagree and I think we handled the two podcasts pretty well, to be quite honest, trying to give love and charity, but also also truth. We have a propensity in the wider church because Jesus, jesus I think it gets the label of nice. Jesus is kind, but Jesus is also fierce, right, I mean, jesus is straight to the heart.
Speaker 2:If something's wrong and I think in the Missouri Synod in particular and I have the data to prove this is we're overly passive, we don't say what we think and we may create triangles. So that's why I appreciate you and the Spirit of God that has been placed upon you to yeah, can you come? You're frank. Can that become maybe rude, a little edgy? Well, here's the thing that I don't find you. I don't find you offensive if we could disagree on something, because I'm talking to you face to face. Even though it's technology right now, sometimes with a written word, it needs to be fallen up with a spoken word, right, because there's context to everything we say. So if you step just across the line a little bit on a statement, hopefully people reach out and the dialogue just points more people to Jesus ultimately, because I think we need more frank discussion in the LCMS, and so thanks for being about that, lex for sure. Any closing comments, bro, this has been a good time.
Speaker 4:No, I'm really thankful as someone who's been at Lutheran for a good number of years and seeing the gradual process of us getting involved online from Worldview et cetera, being pretty much one of the only ones or Pastor Paul McCain recipes to Jordan Cooper, 1517, ryan Wolf Miller, and now seeing online and you guys and we need more of that and it's great that people can go to those resources. Or, if they have no idea, there's some girl. She has a girl podcast with her and a Roman Catholic and she recently did one based on from conversations online and seeing Brian Wolfmiller's stuff has converged to Lutheranism.
Speaker 1:Now I'm not saying we're running the church to find that.
Speaker 4:But just us being out there with our passive sense, us being online, makes it so passive or not. We're there and I want to thank you guys and I know the online guys aren't here, but them too and, in general, the people who are actually putting that effort out there to leave a digital footprint that people can find and hear about Lutheranism. Hear can find and hear about Lutheranism. Hear about our thoughts, even if it's not always thoughts where it's like I'm trying to share doctrine with you, but you still can know we have opinions on things and we're going to talk about it and disagree in this manner or praise each other in this manner or critique each other in this manner. We're at the table. We're at the table and that's all I can ask for. I remember I know it gets long-winded, but I wrote a blog a while ago and one of the biggest, most highlight moments online for me was Todd Wilkin commenting on it and it kind of scared me.
Speaker 4:You know what I'm saying, but my topic was we need a celebrity pastor. It was a clickbait title, so I wasn't really saying we need a celebrity pastor. I was saying that we need somebody at the table. So when you have all these other bigwigs out here speaking, we need somebody at the table. So when you have all these other bigwigs out here speaking, we need somebody where it's like what's a Lutheran thing? There's a place or a source for people to say that's the Lutheran perspective. So it wasn't really we need a celebrity pastor. I just did that to make people look at it, but the concept of us being present to where, when that talk's going on, you'll be able to find us, you'll be able to find our view somewhere out here. So thank you, guys, and everybody else who's out there in the world doing this, thank you as well. Extra notes Extra notes Academy. Can't forget that.
Speaker 3:I mentioned Dr Cooper 1517.
Speaker 4:I got to mention my people is awesome.
Speaker 2:That's right. Yeah, extra notes Check out Extra Notes Academy. Extra Notes Academy Extra Notes a book by Flame. So good, this is Lead Time, like subscribe, comment wherever it is, you take these in and I'm sure we're going to have some good comments there and we'll engage and we'll grow as Jesus followers. Lex, you're a gift of the body of Christ. Welcome to the LCMS, my friend, and looking forward to connecting next time. It's a good day. Go make it a great day. Thanks, jack. Wonderful work, lex. God bless brothers. God bless you guys.
Speaker 1:You've been listening to Lead Time, a podcast of the Unite Leadership Collective. The ULC's mission is to collaborate with the local church to discover, develop and deploy leaders through biblical Lutheran doctrine and innovative methods To partner with us in this gospel message. Subscribe to our channel, then go to theuniteleadershiporg to create your free login for exclusive material and resources and then to explore ways in which you can sponsor an episode. Thanks for listening and stay tuned for next week's episode.