Lead Time
Lead Time
Conviction and Cause: The Lutheran Balance
Dr. Jon Braunersreuther joins Tim Ahlman to challenge one of the most persistent false dichotomies in Lutheran circles: the notion that being "confessional" and "missional" represent opposing priorities. Drawing from his role as Director of District-Wide Strategy for the Texas District LCMS, Jon presents a compelling alternative—a reciprocal and reinforcing relationship where strong theological convictions naturally fuel passionate mission work, and authentic mission efforts necessarily depend on doctrinal clarity.
• Conviction implies connection between cognitive understanding and affective heart response that moves us to action
• True Lutheran confessional convictions naturally lead to missional cause—sharing these beliefs with those who don't yet know Jesus
• The false dichotomy of "confessional vs. missional" can be replaced with a reciprocal, reinforcing relationship model
• Article 4 of the Augsburg Confession (justification by grace through faith) has powerful missional implications
• 1 Timothy 4:16 demonstrates the biblical foundation for watching both "life and doctrine closely"
• The Book of Concord preface states doctrines are preserved "to be kept and spread"
• Luther himself emphasized that faith "will not do for each one hearing the gospel to go his own way" but must be extended
• The Texas District aims for 500 new leaders in 500 new places by 2031, inspired by Ethiopia's Mekani Yesus Lutheran Church
• First Article gifts (reason and senses) should be used for mission planning without fear of "programming the Holy Spirit"
• The Jerusalem Council (Acts 15) demonstrates how the early church discussed mission problems and reached consensus
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Speaker 2:Welcome to Lead Time. Tim Allman here, Jack Calvert still on vacation. It's a great day to be alive. Pray. The joy of Jesus is with you as you lean into a wonderful, fun conversation today with Reverend Dr John Browners Reuter. He's been on with me before. I think he was on the American Reformation podcast a while back, or maybe it was Lead Time. I don't know. I think he was on the American Reformation podcast a while back, or maybe it was lead time, I don't know. You could go back in the archives and listen to that one. But today we're going to be talking about a presentation that John gave to circuit pastors at circuit meetings in the Texas district. He is currently the director of district-wide strategy for the Texas district of the LCMS. In addition, he serves as mission strategist for the greater Houston metropolitan area of the Texas district.
Speaker 2:He received his MDiv from Concordia Seminary, St Louis 1989. Doctor of the Ministry from Regent University in 2019. And this is the bio that he sent me. He has a stunningly beautiful wife, Rachel. You married up just like I did, John, Fair enough, and they are the parents of now. How do I say Adah? Am I saying that?
Speaker 3:right, yeah, andy, and his wife's name is Adah Adah.
Speaker 2:Okay, and Aaron, who is married to also a pastor, aaron LaHue. Is that right? That's right, lahue? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And grandparents to Jax. He got three grandkids Jax, judah and Ray Lynn. How are you doing today, john? Thanks so much for hanging out, I'm great.
Speaker 2:Thanks for having me. This is going to be great. So the title of your presentation Conviction Cause. Community Mission in the Texas District. Let's start there. Talk to us about how you connect confessional as synonymous with conviction and missional as synonymous with cause. What a joy to be with you, john, and missional as synonymous with cause.
Speaker 3:What a joy to be with you, john. Yeah, it's great to be here, and you know the word conviction. I like the word conviction because I think it implies a connection between what's going on in our heads and what's going on in our hearts, between the cognitive and the affective domains. It's knowledge that actually means something to us and moves us to action. And as Lutheran Christians, we have convictions. We have convictions that are based on the truth of Holy Scripture. We're sola scriptura people, we're people of the Bible, and we have convictions that are based on the Lutheran confessions to which we subscribe. So those are our convictions. We have confessional convictions, we have doctrinal convictions based on Holy Scripture and Lutheran confessions, and then we have a cause. I think, that arises out of our convictions, and it's a missional cause. We have reason to want to spread what it is that we believe to the world, to people who do not yet know about Jesus, and I think that you know.
Speaker 3:Sometimes we get that question, you know, or we pose it to ourselves, you know, are you missional or are you confessional? Which one are you? And you know, or we pose it to ourselves, you know, are you missional or are you confessional? Which? Which one are you? And, and you know, if you're like most people, you say, well, I'm both right. You know, cause, we kind of know that's the right answer both Um or or. We put it on a continuum, you know, as if you know you got confessional on this end of the continuum and you got missional on this end of the continuum. Now, where are you on this continuum? And you know, some people will say, well, I'm right in the middle. You know, because that indicates I'm both confessional. And we have this saying in Texas. You know, the only thing that's in the middle of the road is yellow stripes and dead armadillos, you know. So you know, I think that there's a better model than that. I think there's a better model.
Speaker 2:Well, so let's talk about that Instead of using kind of the metaphor of the middle and then right and left, which does go down the political line, to be sure. And I've been making the argument that we're going right down the exact same political divisive line today by bifurcating confessional and missional, turning what should be a verb into a noun the confessionals and the missionals. It's just not helpful. So what's a better metaphor for us, john? Rather than being down the middle.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I'm going to put forth a little model. But there was a British statistician by the name of George EP Box. Isn't that a great name, by the way, george EP Box? And maybe just because my last name has 15 letters in it, I'm enamored with people that have three in their last names. But he said all models are wrong but some are useful. All models are wrong but some are useful.
Speaker 3:So, with that caveat in mind, I would say I believe that there is a reciprocal and reinforcing relationship between being confessional and being missional, a reciprocal and reinforcing relationship. And so you know, if you want to imagine this graphically, imagine, you know, the word conviction or confessional at the top of a little graph and an arrow pointing down to missional or cause, and then an arrow pointing up from missional and cause back to confessional again. I think that they are reciprocal and I think that they reinforce one another. And this is what I mean. I mean, let's take an example of a confessional doctrine. Let's pick out, let's say, article 4 of the Augsburg Confession, which is about justification, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, obviously it's the biggest one. It's what we've kind of hung our hat on. Right.
Speaker 3:We've said you know, we have our head on which the church rises to falls.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, exactly this is the doctrine upon which the church stands or falls. You know, this is really an important doctrine. We are saved by grace, through faith, entirely by the merit of jesus christ, and not because of what we have done are we guaranteed eternal life, which I, you know. I just have to stop at this point and say you know, number one, that's true, and number two, that's really good news. Is it nice news? It's the best you know. Know, it's fantastic. Who wouldn't want paradise forever and have it be free? It's free. You don't have to earn it, you don't have to deserve it. And now that you got it, you don't got to prove it Not to God, not to God. The proof lies in the cross of Jesus Christ. It's wonderful news, it's great news.
Speaker 3:That's a doctrine, and I want to say we should get our doctrine right. Yeah, we should, and I want to get, for instance, that doctrine. I want to be sure that it's right, that it is pure. We should get it right. But my point is is that doctrine has missional implications? Okay, so, first of all, it has an implication for my life and yours. I mean, by the grace of God, I am on my way to heaven forever instead of hell forever. That's great news. But the fact of the matter is that doctrine which we believe in, which we believe, teach and confess that we are determined in this church body to get right and we should has implications for everyone, everyone for everyone. Everyone. Everyone has an eternity to spend someplace and that doctrine says without Jesus, without the grace of God, it's hell forever.
Speaker 3:Our doctrine reinforces our mission and that's true. You can pick out any doctrine, any doctrine that we have, any doctrine that we work so hard to get right and we should work hard to get it right. They all have missional implications, missional implications. And if we are missional, if we are truly missional, we ought to be concerned about what the true doctrine is, because otherwise, what am I missional for? I mean, if I don't have some passion about something, if I don't believe something strongly about something, if I don't believe something strongly, you know, you know then why do this? It's too hard, I don't know if we have it right anyway, let the Baptist do it. So if I don't, if I, if I don't have some convictions, why be involved in the cause? That's right. And if I and if I do have convictions, I can't help but be involved.
Speaker 2:John, how did we arrive at this place where we all I mean who would listen to what you just said in our church body and say you know what that's all wet? I mean, if you read the Bible, and here's what I mean shout out to Paul Robby, are we reading the Bible? It's very clear that God is on a mission and that mission includes the entire world, well, no, the entire cosmos. Romans, chapter eight, which is groaning for restoration. Right, everything has been hurt and there's a day that is quickly approaching, when Jesus is returning to gather all of his kids, that there's going to be a day of the separation between the sheep and the goats, the wheat and the shafts, you know, those who believe in, those who do not believe, and if we believe there's going to be a separation, people outside of the presence of Jesus. Shouldn't that give us great conviction, clarity around who Jesus is, what he's done, what the word says, what it means to be a part of the church, obviously, justification by grace, through faith, and then that cause to make him known. This is the cruciform life of Jesus. As I have done so, will you do through the cross to new life Like I don't?
Speaker 2:I don't, maybe you're more of a historian. I don't get how. And I do understand why, because we have the battle over the Bible, we have Seminacs, we have some of these wounds. We've just not processed a lot of our struggles. I mean, I think that's the near the more recent why. And then we have maybe the wounds of the church growth movement and how some think that in the contemporary spaces you've compromised some teaching, which we're doing better work right now, I think, to write better songs for the church that are, yes, in a modern, contemporary space, but very Jesus-centered, very Doctrine of Justification by Grace Through Faith-centered, very Jesus-centered, very doctrine of justification by grace through faith centered, very narrative centered. The bell is being rung right now, if you can't hear it, chapel is happening right here at Christ Greenfield. Anyhow, those are some of the historical reasons. But who in our church body would deny this kind of clarity, this reciprocal relationship between conviction and cause? I'm left kind of curious about it, john, your take.
Speaker 3:Well, you know, I think that we all have predilections. I think we have things that make us comfortable. All right, and you know some of us, you know, and that's why I think we need to apply these words, you know, this idea of a reciprocal relationship to ourselves. I have to apply it to myself. What makes me more comfortable? Am I more comfortable studying theology and getting it right and sort of being polemic, or am I one of those people that really has a heart for outreach and mission? And wow, that's the thing that I really want to do? I think we all need to remember time is short and hell is hot, you know, and we have some things that we have convictions about and so, hey, let's do something about it. And you know, this is biblical, you know, and it's directly biblical.
Speaker 3:The one passage from Scripture that I think is just so clear is first timothy, chapter 4. Uh, starting with verse 16, st paul writes to timothy watch your life and your doctrine closely. And I mean, is that not a clear packet passage? Okay, your life and your doctrine, all right. So this is not, you know. Oh, let's get doctrine right-ish, you know? No, this is get it all right. You know, get it all right, watch your life and your doctrine closely. But then he very quickly adds the second part of that If you do what, you will save yourself and your hearers. You will save yourself and your hearers. See, see, there there is a missional purpose for correctness in doctrine there's a missional purpose. Um, how about? How about saint paul to the corinthians?
Speaker 3:Uh, fifth chapter, uh, the love of christ compels us. And then you know, that chapter is about the ministry of reconciliation. Of course that's the the topic. But he talks about the love of christ compels us. Now I get a little wonky on you here. Uh, you know so. So for the greek scholars out there, um, uh, yeah, is that a subjective or an objective genitive? All right. So the question is is how do you translate it? Is it our love for Christ that compels us, or is it Christ's love for us that compels?
Speaker 2:us.
Speaker 3:I think that the context clearly indicates and the verse kind of works either way, but I think the context clearly indicates it's a subjective genitive. It's that Christ's love, that wonderful doctrine of justification by grace through faith and all of the articles of the faith that go along with it, all right, compels us to a message of reconciliation. You know, if I'm saved by grace through faith and, for instance, if I believe that baptism is a means of grace that should be applied to babies, to children, that the Holy Spirit can work faith in the life of an infant through baptism, you know I'm kind of passionate for that. I want people to understand that I am delighted when people come to faith in Jesus Christ, in whatever theological tradition they come into it. That's a good thing, right. But you know what I believe. We got the truth here and I'd really rather have people believe what I believe is the fullness of the truth. Yeah, when people come to the Lord's Supper, I want them to understand hey, you are really and truly receiving the body and blood of Jesus in with and under the bread and wine for your forgiveness, life and salvation.
Speaker 3:I want people to understand that. I don't want them to be in a place where that isn't taught. I want them to have the full. There are missional implications for the doctrines that we believe, Not to mention the fact that Luke says in chapter 19, the Son of man came to seek and to save the lost. The Missio Dei itself, the mission of God itself, is a doctrine. The Great Commission itself is a doctrine. So if we're going to be doctrinally pure, let's be pure about all the doctrine, which includes the mission of God, which includes the Great Commission.
Speaker 2:I think it's good, john. So let me try this on Do you think in our church body there's been a misunderstanding of and I don't like the right or left, but maybe the bent you could use right or left hand hemisphere of the brain and gifting toward, because Paul is very clear Ephesians, chapter 4, that he gave. I think there's one office but then there's multiple kind of functions in that office Apostle, prophet, evangelist, preacher, teacher, lot of time, just to make a point in my office, doing deep exegetical work for the focus of 15 to 25 minute message, and I need to spend the 15 minute work, or I'm working on my PhD toward one part of the doctrine within the church and this is going to be a blessing, like my day is not spent as much as some people who are the extroverts, the missional oriented, the new starters, the entrepreneurs out there, and those, those two different types of groups, those that are out there, I would say the evangelist, um, and for those that are the teacher, more internal, we just talk right past each other. We don't have room to love and care and respect one another based on our, based on our bent, if we could say you know what evangelists I need, you, I'm better because you are out there sharing the gospel consistently, bringing people to a saving knowledge, bringing them, incorporating them into the life of the church.
Speaker 2:But I'm more discipleship bent rather than outreach bent. Right, is there something there? I think there is, and some of my research has been on the personalities of those behavioral sets of those that are pastors in the church. Most of them are, I would say, imbalanced. This is not bad, but there's a majority of us that are more imbalanced toward discipleship, anonymous, with that is conviction around our doctrines, rather than maybe aggressively and I use aggressive in a general sense or or dynamically imbalanced toward, toward mission and evangelism. We've just like talked right and when there's the water's warm, there's room for everybody in this, in this place, from apostle all the way to preacher and teacher, evangelist and prophet. Anything more to say there, john, is that is that a fair take?
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, and that's why I said before, I think that we need to apply this idea of conviction and community to ourselves. I have to apply it to myself and think about okay, where am I more comfortable? Right. And if I'm a person who is comfortable getting the convictions correct which is the right thing to do, by the way, I want to reinforce it. Getting the doctrine correct is right. There's nothing in the Bible that says otherwise. If that's what I'm more comfortable with, then I have to kind of apply this to myself and say, yeah, but my convictions, they ought to be moving me to mission, because if I really believe what I say, I believe there are missional implications. And if, on the other hand, if I'm the missional guy who's all about, you know, who has this passion for people, who wants to be sure that people go to heaven forever, you know I want to be out there with people. You know I'm not the sort of guy who wants to sit in my office and study very much. I better be saying to myself yeah, but what am I saying? Amen, right, do I? Do I have this right or wrong? And see, that's why I think that you know the.
Speaker 3:The title of my little presentation, tim, was Conviction, cause and Community, and I think it's that third C that is, that is vitally important. And you know, for this I would go, you know, and I'm sure that you were up reading the handbook of last night before you before you went to bed, as you're integrating I, I know all your and everybody who's listening to this podcast does too. I'm sure, sure, but there are really some gems in there, particularly in the Constitution. I love the preamble to the Constitution of the Lutheran Church, missouri Synod. The preamble to the Constitution is entitled Reasons for the Formation of a Synodical Union and there are two of them given. And I wonder, you know, just I'll pause here for a minute and I just wonder if the listeners to this podcast know what the reasons are for the formation of a synodical union. But but they are there.
Speaker 2:I do. I do Because I'm, because I've hung out with you. John, thank you for turning me on. And I have read, and I have read the handbook. So, nonetheless, but not every night, just yeah night. All right, give it to us.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So the first one is the example of the apostolic church in Acts, chapter 15, which, of course. What is that? It's the Jerusalem council, right? It's the first church convention, and what was the problem there?
Speaker 2:Deep debate. What do the Gentiles got to do to be brought in? And there was, after much discussion, debate. Like the people have some strong opinions here. They united on a certain perspective, but they had a long time discussing their various opinions about what the Gentiles had to do. Say more about that, John.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know. And you know, it strikes me that the church first church convention was convened around a mission problem. Yeah, it was a mission problem. All these Gentiles are coming to the faith. What are we going to do with them? Do they have to follow all the Jewish laws or not? And you know what? The missional people talked to the doctrinal people and the doctrinal people talked to the missional people and everybody had their say and they came to a consensus around what it was that needed to be done. So the example of that that's what we are meant to be in the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. We are meant to be in the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. You know it wasn't one group lording it over the other group or forcing the other group, you know, to do what they thought was right. It was enough of a discussion around an important, controverted issue that they were able to come to a consensus. And that's what we're supposed to be in the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod.
Speaker 2:Well, I think there's great help in understanding what they actually said in Acts, chapter 15, because they said that they shouldn't do anything external to prove themselves as righteous. So circumcision, no, but, and I think there's two kinds of righteousness is seen here. So we are passively brought into faith, but then don't eat meat, the sacrifice, don't do anything like horizontally that, and Paul doubles down on this. So this is the conviction around hey, no sexual immorality. There's a new way that we are living here as we give witness out into the world and stand on our conviction of, by grace, through faith, passively received, through the work and merit of of Christ. Anything more to say about, because there was, there was consensus and both, both sides, kind of say I can see it and I can see this side, and we're still preserving a new way of being in our community. We're convicted around our, our doctrines, namely what our witness looks like to the outside world. John, take that.
Speaker 3:Well, you know, and I would love it if, in our church body, we actually had those kinds of discussions that brought us together, because, you know, around whatever the controverted issue might be, god's word is powerful. The Holy Spirit is powerful, he works in the hearts and minds of people, and you know the second reason for the formation of a synodical union, that the diversities of gifts might be for the common profit. And 1 Corinthians 12 is the passage that's mentioned there, which is the parts of the body of Christ, all of which are vital, all of which are absolutely vital. And one of those types of diversity is diversity of opinion. And so when I see something differently from the way you see it, you know what we need to talk with each other about that, because the same spirit lives in me, you, that that lives in me, all right. So so it's, it's important for us to discuss those, amen.
Speaker 2:Amen. So where is this cause? Conviction, interplay, reciprocal relationship seen in the Book of Concord.
Speaker 3:Interplay reciprocal relationship seen in the Book of Concord, john. Yeah, well, and I love this, a part of the preface to the Book of Concord. Why was the Book of Concord put together? Well, it's listed in the preface, all right, and I love this particular paragraph from the Book of Concord. They write we have desired to direct and earnestly exhort our churches and schools first of all to the Holy Scripture and the creeds and then to the aforementioned Augsburg Confession, in order that especially the youth who are being trained for service in the church and for the holy ministry may be instructed faithfully and diligently so that among our descendants the pure teaching and confession and confession of the faith may be kept and spread. There you go, through the help and assistance of the holy spirit. Isn't that amazing that? That's it Amazing, yeah, so it's not a doctrine to be kept just for the sake of being doctrine. This doctrine is there and it is to be spread. And you know this is really consistent also, I think, tim, with what our church fathers have said, what Luther has said on down the line.
Speaker 3:Another quote for you here this is from Walther's proper form of a Lutheran congregation that he presented to the Western District I think it was 1862, one of his theses it is also incumbent upon the congregation to do its part in building up and promoting the welfare of the church at large. And then he quotes a couple of important Bible passages Amos 6, 6, acts 11, 21 to 23. And then Walther goes into this Luther quote. Get this Luther quote. This is amazing, you know, because we often think of the time of Luther as being the time of it was all about doctrine. It was all about, yeah, everybody was Christian in some way, shape or form. Admission wasn't a thing and let's just get the doctrine right. But this is what Luther said.
Speaker 3:Luther Mark 16, 16,. He that believeth and is baptized shows that faith must not remain concealed and hidden. It will not do for each one hearing the gospel to go his own way, to believe for himself and not to confess his faith before others. No, it should be known and seen where the gospel is not only preached but also believed and received. That is where the church and Christ's kingdom is to be found in the world. For that purpose, christ brings us together and holds us together through the divine sign of baptism. Otherwise, if we remained apart and separate, without such an external bond and sign, christendom could not be extended and preserved. Therefore, christ binds us together in this divine community, the church, in order that the gospel be spread farther and farther and others be brought into the fold through our confession. You asked the question before how did we get off onto this thing where we're just about theology? Well, it didn't come from Luther, it didn't come from the confessors, somehow somewhere, someplace along the line.
Speaker 2:We strayed from that, Another type of spirit, and I feel like it's a spirit that's putting us back under the weight of the law and we should get it right. But the reason we get it right is for our homes and for our communities, that all would be saved and come to a knowledge of him. We're walking through Mark right now, john, through our Lenten journey to the cross and empty tomb, and it's funny, you mentioned Mark 16, 16. That's in the extended version of Mark, right? I think the suspended ending take on ending at verse eight is quite fascinating for the rhetorical reason of saying.
Speaker 2:The women left with fear and great trembling and they told no one anything, no words, because they were fearful. Now we know the women actually ended up telling the men what they'd seen and heard. But the rhetorical element if you end at the suspended ending of verse 8, is for you as the hearer, who have simply heard the word. You haven't seen the risen Jesus. You've just heard the angelic proclamation. What are you going to do with it? Are you going to be faithful with it, carrying it to others who are under the weight, the crushing weight, of their sin, locked up in the upper room of their heart wondering if God is for them, if he loves them, and then let them know Jesus is breaking into that upper room and saying peace be with you, I love you, I forgive you, I'm breathing my spirit upon you, oh, and as a father has sent me, so I'm sending you. Any, take on, like the first evangelist, these women, having heard the word, they carry the word back to the scared disciples. Any, take there, john, on Mark 16, 8?.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know, and the thing is, the most important historical event ever in the world is the resurrection of Jesus Christ, without question the most important historical event in the world, and that's a doctrine, right, it's resurrection, but it moved. The conviction about that moved those women to mission, it absolutely moved those women to mission. And without the resurrection, of course, st Paul said, our faith is in vain, you're still in your sins, and what motivation is there? But with the resurrection there is such great motivation. And you know, I just think that that you know it. Just, it's just another example of this interplay between conviction and and cause, amen.
Speaker 2:All right, you've done some work on balancing confession and mission with the historian, the kind of church historian, ed Stetzer. Ed's been writing some, some work on theological pastoral formation recently too. Just read an article from him that talks about actually the seminaries, the academics, those who are convicted around the doctrines of the church doing more today and this is what our prayer is actually, with both of our seminaries doing more to get closer to the context of the variety of different types of congregations that exist in the LCMS. I'm praying for that, to be sure. So what is Stetzer's perspective on the balance between confession and mission? John?
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know, when I give this presentation, what I love to do is without revealing that it's Ed Stetzer who says this. I like to ask the question what contemporary LCMS author wrote these words? Because these words sound like an LCMS guy writing them. So I want to just read this little narrative. This comes from Ed's work Viral Churches that he wrote several years ago, and I just I think it's amazing. He writes in 1910, church leaders came together in Edinburgh, scotland, under the slogan the evangelization of the world in this generation. That sounds like a great thing, doesn't?
Speaker 1:it. It sounds awesome yeah.
Speaker 3:Leaders of most major denominations were present to discuss how they could work together to win the world to Christ. Ok, they assumed that everyone who loves missions must also love the Bible and be committed to it in a similar way. Initially that was true, so differences in doctrine, structure and polity were intentionally set aside for the purpose of helping each other send out missionaries. Unfortunately, the follow-up conferences ultimately steered a different direction. By 1928, the International Missionary Council, which had been founded because of the 1910 meeting, questioned the need for personal witness and increasingly focused on service. The 1938 International Missionary Council meeting questioned the need for conversion among devout followers of other faiths. Though much good has been accomplished through the International Missionary Council and its successors, the historic lesson for many is that missions without a doctrinal framework tend to lose the gospel's transformational power. And here's the, once again, the kicker line is right at the end. No mission organization has maintained its focus on the gospel without a strong doctrinal foundation. And so, in addition to everything that Scripture has to say about keeping our doctrine pure and it says it over and over again St Paul said if anyone should preach to you any other doctrine than what I preached to you, let him be accursed, or St John at the end of Revelation. If anyone would add anything to this book or take away from this book, let all of the plagues that come from this book fall on him. It's all throughout Scripture.
Speaker 3:But, as a practical matter, if we're going to be about the mission, if we're going to be about the mission, we must maintain a strong doctrinal foundation, and this is one of the things that actually gives me hope for our church body, Tim. We have a strong doctrinal foundation, right. We have strong convictions, right. Most of which most of us, the vast majority of which, the vast majority of us do not disagree about, like justification and the resurrection and eschatology and all those things we don't we tend not to disagree about that. We have strong doctrinal convictions. Now, if we just allow those strong doctrinal convictions to play themselves out as they should in mission, what a powerful thing that could be. I'm curious.
Speaker 2:You've been a district leader now for a while, mission as a pastor, but you've also served nationally too with President Kishnick. How many stories and you don't have to get specific how many stories of pastors, just everyday faithful pastors, small church, large church, whatever size church. How many stories do you have of pastors swerving from the specifics of our doctrine where you have to, oh my goodness, like we're falling off the rails here? In my estimate, I don't think there are many. Maybe you hear way more than I do, but I don't hear like robust heresy from our pulpits in the LCFS. I mean no, it's very, very, very infrequent. So I think we should rejoice in that right.
Speaker 3:It is rare. You know, and I have the pleasure of serving here in Texas. One of the stories I love to tell, if you'll indulge me in this one, is sort of how Lutheranism started in Texas, the heart and what I would call the heart and core of LCMS Lutheranism in Texas. It was 1854, and a group of Wendish people got together, 600 of them. And who are the Wends? Well, ethnically Slavic people, not Teutons like the Saxons were, but ethnically Slavic people kind of in the hinterlands between Germany and the Slavic countries that existed at the time decided that they were going to emigrate, 600 of them. And same reason, essentially, as the Saxons they disagreed with the, with the Prussian Union. They wanted to practice their Lutheran confessional faith. As they understood it, 1854, they get on a ship called the Ben Nevis he's from, I believe it was Amsterdam lands in Galveston, texas, on December 15th of 1854. They walk about halfway across the state to Surbin, texas, which is near Austin. So if you kind of know what the state of Texas looks like, they walked that far. They lived in dugouts the first winter. They had very little food. They put up a little church. First thing they did started four new congregations in surrounding towns cross-culturally. Cross-culturally because the people in the surrounding towns who needed to be reached were Germans, not Wends, different language, different cultural group, but they did this cross-culturally. So that was the first thing they did About. The second thing that they did was there was a pastor, a Lutheran pastor, who was not yet LCMS, he was confessional Lutheran at Trinity Lutheran Church in downtown Houston, heard about what the Wens were doing in Lee County and he said we got to get them over here to the Houston area and then they started four more congregations, right.
Speaker 3:So these were people of conviction. They were people of strong convictions. They left their homeland because of those theological convictions, number one and number two. They left their homeland because they wanted to be together and work together. They wanted to be in community, conviction. Community leading to, naturally leading to the cause, the cause to start new congregations, to spread the good news. They couldn't help but do that. They. They had to do that and a part of the deal was with them. 73 of the 600 died on the way over. Can you imagine that? No, 73 of their number, mostly from cholera, uh, on ship. So these were people for whom death was real and it was right in front of them and that was a lot for them and so their convictions. It really made a difference in their Christian life.
Speaker 3:The other story I love their leader's name was John Killian, so they had first built this little church in 1854. In 1859, they dedicated the new St Paul's Lutheran Church in Serban and Killian preached the dedication sermon in Wendish and he looked out over the audience and he said oh, there are some German-speaking people here. I better give a summary in German. So he gave a summary in German. Then he looked over out over the audience and said oh, some of these people here. They only speak English, so I better give a summary in English. So Wendish, german, english. Killian was seeker sensitive, before that was even a term Right. And why? Why? Because the gospel is too important, it's too important to be proclaimed in a language that people don't understand. It's too important.
Speaker 2:The gospel makes a difference. Hey, such a great story, John, and really kind of explains the confessional and missional conviction and cause that the Texas district has lived with still to this day. That story, the stories we tell, deeply matter. I'm curious how did they raise up their pastors to start these churches? Do you know?
Speaker 3:I don't know. I don't know for sure, I'm curious. You know the?
Speaker 2:LCMS story is. I mean, we had relied for some time on Leah getting pastors over from Germany, send them over. And then we're like well, the mission is too strong, right, we got to start some organization institutions, seminaries, mentorship et cetera and raise them up local. A guy by the name of Ben did you?
Speaker 3:Go ahead. So a guy by the name of Ben, did you go ahead? Yeah, I was going to say there is certainly a history more broadly in the LCMS of a variety of ways of providing pastoral formation. You know, there were the note helpers, the sendling, the coal poor tours, all of whom were more minimally trained, but but they certainly provided pastoral care because we recognized that there was a mission needed.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're going to be talking about Reverend Dr Ben Mays, professor at Concordia Theological Seminary, fort Wayne. Did you read his most recent article on 16th 17th century pastoral formation?
Speaker 3:I did, I did.
Speaker 2:It's quite fascinating in that some of the pastors in rural, less educated places, they didn't want them to be overly educated. Obviously, they need to have clarity on the conviction and the ability to proclaim the gospel, but it wasn't. It wasn't a cookie cutter for every pastor it was about it was a lot about their context. We need some who are going to be the academics who are going to help dig into the word of God. But that wasn't, that wasn't for everyone. It was very, very contextual. And what he ends up, what he ends up saying, what would it look like today? It's, he says, is basically competency, contextual pastoral education, with a combination of the academics, the scholars, in partnership with other local, experienced pastors, raising up the next generation of pastors. And that's what I've been experiencing here and it's wonderful. And so, anyway, praying for openness to that conversation into the future, I know you are as well, john. Go ahead.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, and wouldn't it be great if we had? You know, we talked about Acts, chapter 15. Wouldn't it be great if we had a good conversation and a clear conversation about that too. There's a friend of mine who said who is fond of saying sometimes we train, we're training PhDs to work at 7-Eleven, here in the, in the LCMS, and, you know, with respect to the pastoral formation, respect to the pastoral formation, and so, yeah, we have a lot of work to do, I think, in coming to consensus about what it is that we need. Certainly Amen.
Speaker 2:Hey, let's talk about the Texas district coming down the homestretch, what is the vision for growth there in Texas? I love the role of vision. It inspires districts and it can inspire other districts in the LCMS. Talk about that a little, John.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, back in 2017, 2018, of course, 2017 being the 500th anniversary of the Lutheran Reformation we said let's use that 500 number as a building block for the next period of time in Texas district history. And so we said 500 new leaders we're looking for in 500 new places by 2031, which is the 125th anniversary of the Texas district. So that's what we're looking for. And we said we can't depend on all of those leaders being pastors, so we're going to have to do something else. And so we said let's look at what's going on in other Lutheran churches, and we looked especially at the Makani Yesus Lutheran Church in Ethiopia, the largest Lutheran church in the world. I'm not sure what. The last time I looked it was 12 million members. I think it's more than that now and they have many more lay evangelists in their midst than they have pastors. And so we said, hey, we need to learn something from them. So we actually talked to the president of the Mekani Yezu Church At that time it was Burhanu Afga and we said, hey, how do you do this and how do you train these evangelists? And he said hey, how do you do this and how do you train these evangelists? And he said well, we just kind of do, which wasn't particularly helpful, but we knew that we needed to translate the idea of evangelists, and then we send them into places where the gospel does not yet exist, places where it's dark.
Speaker 3:Evangelists can do all kinds of things they're not pastors and they understand that they're not pastors, but they do share the word in apartment complexes, schools and in businesses and through works of mercy like food, banks and clothing, those sorts of things, you know, and they're doing a fantastic job and they're absolutely on fire. We have, at last count, we have 38 evangelists and, at last count, if I remember this right, 140 of them are actually active in ministry, if my memory serves me correctly. So that's really a wonderful, wonderful thing to do and, frankly, it builds on one of the things that our church body and convention asked us to do In 2016,. The convention of the Lutheran Church, missouri Synod asked districts to train lay people in evangelism, and so that's precisely what we're doing with our evangelist process. So, 500 new workers, 500 new places Some of them are pastors with new church plants.
Speaker 3:We planted somewhere between 40 and 45 new congregations in the last three years, which is a fabulous, fabulous thing. We're grateful for that. And yet if we would multiply that by 10, if we would have planted 400 to 450 congregations, it wouldn't be matched to the size of the harvest that we have here in Texas. Roughly 30 million or so people in the Texas district. Roughly seven and a half million of those people trust in Jesus as their Savior. Now I'm grateful for the seven and a half million, praise God for them. The Holy Spirit lives in them. But that leaves 22 and a half million people that are lost, and that's the sort of thing that gets us up in the morning ready to eat nails and do something about it. That's why we say here in Texas what are we as district staff trying to do?
Speaker 3:We're trying to be catalysts for a mission movement. Catalysts for a mission movement. What's a catalyst? A catalyst is that third thing that you add to a chemical reaction and it releases energy, and so we try to bring resources to the mission so that we're multiplying those leaders and mission movement. What's a mission movement? I'm a simple guy, I like simple definitions. It's when congregations plant congregations, that plant congregations and so on, and when disciples make disciples, who make disciples, and so on. That's a mission movement. So we're very excited about that. By the grace of God, he's blessed us and we pray that he continues to do so.
Speaker 2:You've been to many LCMS conventions. I've been to fewer, but I have been to the last three. Wouldn't it be amazing if there were resolutions toward reaching more disciples and we actually put a number on growth that we would aim toward and then new churches that are going to accommodate that growth? I feel like there's been opportunity for a uniting vision for us that will balance our confession and our conviction and then the cause in community and convention coming together to say this is this and then we're going to work, because if you don't have that vision, then the means toward that end are not. You're going to fight over the means. No, let's get. Fight over the means, no, let's get, let's get united on the ends and then we can have the robust debate about the means toward that end in terms of leadership, development, discipleship, what all the things that need to be discussed. But I feel like, because we've had a very little conversation about long range, because the Makana Yesu movement, they've got strong aims toward reaching millions and millions of people by x date. Why do you think we're reluctant to put that kind of line in the sand, I think, as a synod, and say we got to go there and then we're going to trust. Hey, in your district it's going to look different, but we're aiming there it. The texas district is very different. The psd district is different.
Speaker 2:Maricopa County has a thousand people coming into our county every single week, john. One thousand. So within two weeks that's the size of my congregation. Two weeks coming into my county. How are we reaching mission? There has to be more trust as that vision gets lived out in our respective districts. But I don't see the national vision lying in the sand. And this is not against President Harrison, this is kind of an indictment or an invitation to the wider church. Let's write resolutions toward these missional ends with the conviction of justification by grace, through faith. Any thought about why we're reluctant there, john?
Speaker 3:Well, you know, have you ever noticed basketball is more fun when you have hoops you keep score, man, you know, yeah, I mean, how else do you know?
Speaker 3:you know if you're playing the game? You know, how else do you know whether you're, whether you're, uh, whether you're winning? You know what, what's going on? Basketball is so much more fun when you have hoops. Um, and and, uh.
Speaker 3:So now, by no means, by setting goals, are we trying to program the holy spirit? No, come on. Yeah, yeah, and, and. So let let's, let's, get rid of that argument right away. Um, we are saying, we believe this is what god is leading us to do, and, and, and, and. It gives us a method of planning. And, believe me, have me on another time.
Speaker 3:I've got a whole speech on first article gifts and how to use first article gifts and why we're sometimes reluctant to use first article gifts. Some of the planning tools that are out there and measurable objectives, they're just first article gifts. What do we confess in the first article of the Creed? I believe that God made me and all creatures that he has given me my body and soul, eyes, ears and all my members, my what, my reason and all my senses. My reason and senses are gifts from God and they are to be stewarded for the sake of the kingdom.
Speaker 3:So why wouldn't we, as an earthly activity, as an earthly objective, not trying to program God, not trying to program the Holy Spirit? Why wouldn't we set goals? Why wouldn't we say we're going to try to train 500 more leaders, we're going to try to spread the gospel, we're going to try to reach this many people? It's up to God. We're not taking credit for anything. The Holy Spirit is the one who makes believers out of people. The Holy Spirit is the one who converts people, and if they're converted, it's because he's done so through the means of grace. We're just trying to program our own activity and we need those sorts of things. We need, you know, if we're playing basketball, we need hoops, and if we're in the church, we need goals. And why wouldn't we have them?
Speaker 2:It makes perfect sense, amen, hey, last question what do you pray the LCMS looks like in 2050? What do you pray? We advance, and what do you pray we avoid? John frame it up that way.
Speaker 3:Well, you know, I hope, I would hope and pray that what we are in 25 years is a church body that continues to be convicted, that continues to be confessional, that continues to be fully scriptural, where that really matters, where the truth of Holy Scripture really matters so much so that we actually do live it out in mission that we can't help that Christ's love for us compels us to be about the message of reconciliation. And especially, I hope that we do it together, in conversation with one another, with a great deal of respect for one another and one another's opinions and one another's giftedness. That's what I would like to see the LCMS become in the days ahead and in the decades ahead.
Speaker 2:Amen, John. What a joy to be with you. If people want to connect with you and your ministry, how can they do so?
Speaker 3:Yeah, just email me. My email address is on the Texas District's website, but otherwise you have to figure out how to type johnbrownersreuter, which can be a little bit of a challenge. But it's johnbrownersreuter at tx like Texas lcmsorg. You can look on the Texas District website and find my email address.
Speaker 2:This was a really, really fun conversation. Listener, please like, subscribe, comment. If you've got a diverse perspective on what we've said, we would love to get you on this podcast to discuss that, that perspective. But I think this has been scriptural, it's it's in the book of concord. It's a part of our story in the lcms, uh, and and we're just trying to to work it out now in our, in our context, which are very, very diverse in the lcms, and I think that's one of our biggest struggles is contextual hospitality for the diverse places that we have in our church body right now. But I think we can all agree we need to be convicted around our common confession and that confession always moves us toward the cause of advancing the gospel. It's a good day. Go make it a great day. Thanks so much, john, thank you.
Speaker 1:You've been listening to Lead Time, a podcast of the Unite Leadership Collective. The ULC's mission is to collaborate with the local church to discover, develop and deploy leaders through biblical Lutheran doctrine and innovative methods To partner with us in this gospel message. Subscribe to our channel, then go to theuniteleadershiporg to create your free login for exclusive material and resources and then to explore ways in which you can sponsor an episode. Thanks for listening and stay tuned for next week's episode.