Lead Time
Lead Time
How Freedom Shapes Faith: Lessons from the AFLC
What does it mean to be "free" in a Lutheran context? Join us as we explore that question with President Micah Hjermstad of the Association of Free Lutheran Congregations. President Micah Hjermstad shares the history, structure, and vision of this distinctively autonomous Lutheran body. The conversation explores how congregational freedom and collaborative ministry can flourish together when centered on the gospel of Jesus Christ.
• History of the AFLC traces back to Norway in the 1800s as a reaction against state church control
• AFLC formed in 1962 when 40 congregations chose not to merge with the American Lutheran Church
• Now encompasses over 250 congregations across 26 states with international ministries
• Unique polity based on 12 fundamental principles that establish congregational autonomy
• National offices support rather than govern congregations through five separate corporations
• Congregations answer only to "the Word and the Spirit" without hierarchical authority
• Vision focusing on maintaining biblical authority while leaning into "the freedom of the gospel"
• Leadership development primarily occurs at the congregational level with new national initiatives
• Majority lay representation required on all national boards
• Creating environments for gracious disagreement while maintaining unity
• Lutheran theology "embraces tension" rather than forcing artificial resolution of biblical paradoxes
• Different Lutheran denominations reach different people with the same gospel
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Speaker 2:Welcome to Lead Time, tim Allman, here with Jack Kalberg. It's a beautiful day to be alive. Pray, the joy and love of Jesus is with you. Our current guest, the president of the AFLC, the Association of Free Lutheran Congregations, is in the house. President Micah Germstad, how are you doing, brother?
Speaker 3:Doing very well. Thank you, Grateful to join you today and looking forward to our conversation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, likewise for sure. So just to let the record stand, we're not talking, as I've talked to other denominational leaders. We're not talking because our congregation in particular, or any congregation I know of, is looking to move the LCMS. We love and respect our LCMS roots and heritage. All this conversation is about today is to hear more stories. There are so many different Lutheran confessional denominations in the United States of America and we're going to hear that story today. So let me give you a little bit of background for Micah. He has been serving as the president of the AFLC since their annual conference in 2022. He was installed as president October 3rd of 2022.
Speaker 2:He grew up in South Dakota. He's a son of an AFLC pastor, wayne Germstad. Upon graduating from high school, he attended the Lutheran or the Free Lutheran Bible College I love all the acronyms affectionately known as the AFLBS earning a diploma in biblical studies. He's then studied at both North Dakota State and Minnesota State in Moorhead Graduating I had some family that went there Graduating in 2006 with a BA in physical education, teaching and coaching. Let's pause right there. What have you coached, micah? I'm curious. A little bit of baseball, mostly basketball. Okay, cool, so big basketball fan, I'm a football coach.
Speaker 2:I love that, love that. In 2006, reverend Germstad enrolled in the Free Lutheran Seminary also the AFLTS. He served his internship at Ruthred Lutheran in Bethel Park was ordained in 2010. Reverend Germstad served Hope Free Evangelical Lutheran Church in where's that? At Ishpeming, michigan. It's in the upper peninsula, ishpeming okay, it's on the oh peninsula, beautiful. In 2005, he accepted a call to serve as St Paul's Free Lutheran in Fargo, north Dakota, where he served until he was elected as president in 2022. He married his wife, brittany, in 2021. They have two wonderful young children, a boy and a girl, levi and Sophie. So thanks so much for hanging out with us today, micah. This is going to be a great time. Tell us a story for those who don't know the origin story of the Association of Free Lutheran Congregations.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's a mouthful, isn't it? Lots of acronyms, although I would say that that's not necessarily unique to our little cul-de-sac of Lutheranism. It's pretty common throughout the history, at least in America anyway, that we like our alphabet soup here here as Lutherans in America. Yeah, we, we actually trace our roots back to Norway and some some things that were happening there in the early to mid 1800s, the, the, the country of Norway, had a state church model and and at that time was, was very oppressive. Uh to, uh to, I would say, christians who were looking to uh worship independently and and you know, when you have a state church model, it's this is an oversimplified way of saying it but essentially the pastors, the clergy, are government employees and and uh, and that creates a whole host of difficulties and and so, uh, there was some, so there was some rejection of that at the time and really, coming from that and this emphasis on personal Christian living and things like that, as immigrants came from Norway to America, they brought some of the passion, the fire, the zeal for what we would call free and living congregations to America, and there were a couple of guys who were hired at Augsburg College and Seminary here in Minneapolis to be professors, to be professors, and they had this vision for a body of congregations that the focus on the authority of the congregation and, yeah, had this vision that there could be these free and living congregations in America that weren't governed by the state or governed by any kind of ecclesiastical authority. And so that goes back again.
Speaker 3:That got kind of up and running in the late 1800s. They formed what became known as the Lutheran Free Church, so the LFC, and that existed as a denomination until I don't remember the exact date it was either like 59 or 60, somewhere in there and then they merged into what was, I think then at that time the ALC, and there were about 40 congregations that did not want to merge into that group and so they broke off and formed what became known eventually then as the AFLC. I mentioned that because kind of a funny thing in the history there is that there were actually some legal battles that made it all the way to the Minnesota Supreme Court over the naming of this. They really wanted to keep the Lutheran Free Church wording and so the kind of the funny proposal was we were going to be named the Lutheran Free Church, not merged. That was initially what our title, our name was going to be and, like I said, that ended up making it all the way to the Minnesota Supreme Court. There were different lawsuits and things like that.
Speaker 3:We settled on AFLC and so we've been in existence now since 1962. So that's 63 years. We've grown from those 40, 50 congregations to about 250, a little over 250 now across 26 states about 250, a little over 250 now across 26 states and we've got ministries in Canada, india, as far as official AFLC kind of denominations. We have missions work in other countries too, but we have congregations in those countries. Brazil would be another one where we have AFLC congregations. And so I'm just grateful for how God has been at work over these 60 plus years and how he's yeah, how he's moved.
Speaker 4:So I don't know if this is like too hot of a topic, but what was the thinking about why they did not want to merge? Was it a doctrinal issue?
Speaker 3:It was doctrinal and polity. Sometimes, you don't, you know, people don't like to necessarily parse those. They'll say that there are polity things that are doctrinal, right, but yeah, it was over the inerrancy and the authority of the word. The ALC that they were joining was much more hierarchical in their ecclesiastical structure, which really those churches felt went against the fabric of who they were as free Lutherans.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so this is fascinating to me because I was actually baptized into the Lutheran state church. I was born in Norway and baptized into one of those churches and so knowing that what we call the free Lutheran churches comes out of that, so the free Lutheran churches would be the contrast to the state run churches. That's kind of the maybe an oversimplified way of of that. So the free Lutheran churches would be the contrast to the state-run churches. That's kind of maybe an oversimplified way of describing that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, certainly at the time. That would be a very good way of describing it Now. As time has moved on in America, we don't necessarily identify with that now as much. It's kind of like there used to be German Lutheran churches, norwegian Lutheran, swedish Lutheran, finnish, on and on down the list, and our churches nowadays. We can still reference that sometimes, but we don't necessarily identify ourselves that way. So a lot of Lutherans in our group today, if we said, well, we're the antithesis to the state church, they wouldn't necessarily know what that means, because that's not our history in America per se, right, exactly, yeah, so what is?
Speaker 4:what is your?
Speaker 2:let's do two things. What is your current kind of polity for as a church body and then piggyback off that to share kind of the vision for the AFLC Micah. What are your thoughts?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so you know, I'll try to keep a brief, keep a brief description of our polity. We, we value congregational autonomy, and so we have this set of what we call fundamental principles, 12 principles that were written in the late 1800s and then it follows through and others that talk about how we don't have any other ecclesiastical authority over the congregation other than the word and the spirit. So the congregation answers to the word and the spirit, and that's essentially it. We have obviously national offices, and I'm sitting here as a president I joke with people that I'm probably the most powerless president that I know of anyway and that's. I actually think that's a good thing and maybe later we can get into some of the nuances you know that are involved in being a leader and not but not exerting domineering authority, that kind of thing, but not exerting domineering authority, that kind of thing, anyway. So, yeah, we have national offices, but our national offices exist to support the congregations in their work, to be able to do things that the Lord leads, that they wouldn't otherwise be able to do themselves. So, to use missions as an example, one congregation can't support missionaries in seven countries, but if you put 250 congregations together, well now we can do that. But there needs to be a level of administration and leadership in that work, and so that's why our World Missions Department exists. We have a publishing wing too, so we can produce Sunday school material and Bible studies, devotionals, things like that, and Bible studies, devotionals, things like that a church planting department.
Speaker 3:I work a lot myself with our pastors and congregations working with well, it's just so many different contexts, I guess Pastoral vacancies, I celebrate anniversaries, I do a lot of conflict resolution, you know those kinds of things. So I'm a resource. Sometimes when, like, a third party is needed to come in, I'm a resource to connect congregations with one another or with potentially available pastors, those kinds of things. So we have a good purpose and reason for existence. But as a headquarters we don't exert any authority over the congregation. So we have a corporate structure, so we're split into five different major corporations so there isn't even one board or entity that kind of rules them all. To vaguely use a Lord of the Rings reference. We have a schools corporation, so they legally you know legally oversee our Bible college and seminary. We have a world missions corporation that legally oversees that work, home missions, the same, and so and so that's kind of how we're, how we are legally structured to be able to do this the right way without having kind of this top down authority. Does that make sense?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. So you've been in your role almost three years now. How is it going in terms of because I think this is the balance between hey, we want this overarching, or, you could say, foundational why you could call that a vision and it could be as relates to reaching more people with the gospel, starting churches to do so, things like that. Are you kind of dipping your toes right now into casting vision for the AFLC and, if so, how's that sound, micah?
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, that's a great question. Certainly, I think a leader has to have a place to present a vision to the body. It differs, again, depending on the structure that you have, and our structure specifically has historically kind of downplayed the role of the president in that work, and not that it hasn't been there, but we just don't necessarily see it as being a primary responsibility that my office has and that's totally fine. I have no problem with that. I also don't think that that I need to stay silent in it either and that there's a way that I can, that that I can present part of my vision and and how I want to see the AFLC move down the road, without saying that that this is the way it shall be done, either, you know, and without saying that that this is the way it shall be done, either you know, and, and so I, you know, I, I have great, I have great hope for our group. I've, I just have great joy in who we are. You know, part of part of moving forward is is maintaining an appreciation for where you've been and where you are Right. I think of the, the, the one leper of the 10 that was healed, who thought to turn and say thank you. You know, having a gratefulness for what God has done over the years, I think is really important in keeping grounded and staying true to our identity. And so you know our value on the inerrancy and the authority of the Word of God. I just pray that we maintain that and keep that for as long as God has us here serving Him, and I just praise God for that history, for that legacy that we have, and that it's not just a legacy but that it's an integral part of who we are.
Speaker 3:I want us to lean into the freedom of the gospel. That's a big thing for me. You know we talk about we're free Lutherans, and when people ask all the time, what in the world does that mean, you know? Does that mean you don't charge an entry fee or whatever other lame joke that you can come up with on that? But when we talk about it so often we talk about the polity that we don't answer to any overarching overlord or anything like that. And I say that a little bit facetiously. So I don't mean to be disrespectful to those that have a different structure that way.
Speaker 3:But I think we maybe have missed or have de-emphasized the other side of that freedom, which is the freedom that we have in the gospel. It was for freedom that Christ has set you, the freedom that we have in the gospel. It was for freedom that Christ has set you free. That's Galatians 5. And that, this gospel, freedom that our chains have been loosed. Think of just the words of Christ in Luke 4 echoing in my mind there too. That's the message that this world that is bound by sin needs to hear that there is this freedom that is to be found in Jesus Christ, and so I want us to, just, I want us to lean into that. I think that's something we all need, but it's something our culture, our society really needs right now, and so I want us to embrace that. I want us to embrace cooperation and interdependence. I want us to embrace that. I want us to embrace cooperation and interdependence. This is another thing.
Speaker 3:With the freedom that we have congregationally, I think we can focus so much on where each congregation is independent that we neglect to consider the fact that God has given us this bigger body, and we need each other. The body of Christ needs each other body and we need each other. You know, the body of Christ needs each other, and, at least for me. I know I'm guilty sometimes of thinking of that just within a congregation. You know that God equips the body within a congregation, but I think God has equipped the body in a greater way too. That's outside of the congregational walls, and so I think that we need to learn to embrace and really value cooperation between congregations. With the different national ministries that we have. We can come alongside you and work with you, those kinds of things. Yeah, so those are some of the things that I kind of see, I guess, moving forward for us, that I would like to just really see us lean into.
Speaker 2:Well, I just affirm it, President Germstad man, you can call me Micah, by the way.
Speaker 2:I know I can, but I just give your office respect. Leaders are constantly curating and I would say, by the Spirit's power, as Lutherans and connected to the Word, curating the gospel. The gospel doesn't change Life, death, resurrection, ascension of Jesus. But how the gospel gets communicated in time and space is contextual, right, and you get the responsibility to say this is the what that I see, and I am going to summarize purity of the doctrine of our confession. Freedom and not just freedom from one another, right, freedom from any kind of, but freedom for advancing collaboratively the mission of Jesus. And you get to cast vision and use your words. But then the how it gets. I don't care if it's at the national level or it's at the local, congregational level or anywhere in between. That's just the call of leadership.
Speaker 2:This is a leadership podcast, micah. Right Is to test out the what. Now, what do you all think? Is this, what this vision kind of lands? And then we're going to work together on the how. I'm not going to dictate the how. Anything more to say in response to that, though, micah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, I just I learned a lesson early on in my time.
Speaker 3:I was down visiting a new church plant in San Antonio, texas, and I was presenting the AFLC they were applying to join our body and and I kind of went on a little bit of a rant on the structural autonomy and because that's kind of what I'm used to in my context that actually was raising some red flags for them, because a lot of them had come from these big kind of big box church, non-denominational churches that were also completely free of any authority over them, but they had seen within their walls the leadership the pastors exert, a more power-hungry type of leadership style, and so it was very important to them that they heard you know, either we have, either we have, you know, a structure where the few leaders in charge make all the decisions.
Speaker 3:Nor is it. You're on your own. Good luck, you know, there's got to be a way that we can come alongside and work together, and yes, it's, it's to share resources and and encourage each other and love one another, but sometimes it is to hold each other lovingly accountable too, and I think that there's a healthy, biblical way to do that that, just, yeah, promotes the health of the congregation and the greater body.
Speaker 4:Well, I have to say, one of the things that really attracted me to the church that I'm in right now becoming it wasn't the label LCMS, really, it was the fact that I knew that the pastors in this church were heavily vetted, that there was a really, really robust pastoral formation process, that there was some form of organizational structure that would hold people accountable, you know, let's say, you know, if some sort of gross corruption happened, I knew that that would be the case.
Speaker 4:And that gave me a lot of comfort being part of this part of this church body. Not that it was a, you know, a deal breaker, but I came from a Pentecostal background. That was how I was raised into and it was. It was an independent church and you know it was there. They were making things up as they were going along. They were making things up as they were going along, and it was very unsettling to me how they were kind of, let's say, we sometimes talk about the innovation orthodoxy pendulum. They were way off on this innovation side of things, creating new thoughts and doctrines to me that were veering out of scripture, and I didn't see any accountability mechanism in that type of context.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I can't do ministry on my own. It's not Tim's church, it's Christ's church and then it's a congregation of the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, of which we're in the PSD Pacific Southwest District, of which there's five no seven other congregations in my circuit and we're kind of a funny, we're kind of a super circuit because Tucson has its own circuit. So some of the Phoenix churches like gather together and I know, hey, if we start doing or saying something that's a little off, we're going to have a conversation about it and we do. And LCMS, so you look at, we're an older church body, almost 200 years old, and so we have great points in our history where innovation and I would say the appropriate amount of innovation you think Lutheran Hour, you think our international missions and a whole bunch of departments kind of getting raised up and many, many faithful leaders over many, many generations leading us to be one of the top two or three largest Lutheran, confessional Lutheran denominations.
Speaker 2:And I'm keeping from talking about the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America because they have some stuff that is, there's some struggles there, I would say. But we're one of the larger denominations and that comes with a whole bunch of blessings and some things. We've got to continue to work on as well as you. As an outsider, kind of look at the LCMS, what do you say? Wow, this is a jewel, a gem, and this is something maybe to watch out against there, president Germsath.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you're talking specifically about the LCMS.
Speaker 2:Sure yeah. I mean, what do you know about our church body and our history? Anything, yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know enough, I guess, um, enough to get me in trouble. Is that? Is that a bad thing? To say yeah, no, I, I, I really appreciate.
Speaker 3:Uh, the LCMS is a zeal for the Lutheran confessions. Um, some of Some of the circles that I am a part of, you know, sometimes they have a little bit of a squinty-eyed approach to that, and I think it's in their mind. It's because there's then this danger of placing the confessions over scripture, and I think that comes from a misunderstanding that nobody, at least that I've ever encountered in the LCMS, has any desire to place the confessions over Scripture. It's just, very simply, that we believe the confessions are a faithful exposition of what Scripture teaches and that they're a beautiful, wonderful teaching tool to help us understand what Scripture says, but that Scripture is the final authority, and that's something I've just always again appreciated about the LCMS and I find a great kindred spirit in that, and so I praise God for that. I think the LCMS has a standard of excellence too that I appreciate. I think there are times when, again, in our zeal to or I shouldn't use that word, maybe, but in our desire to be unorganized and there's good reasons for that I think sometimes that can promote or at least bring a temptation to laziness, and even theological laziness, so to speak, and so I really appreciate the standard of excellence that the LCMS has, at least as I perceive it, and I don't mean to accuse our group of being theologically lazy either, but I think that can be a temptation there and it's something I'm a little bit sensitive to, and so I'm grateful for that.
Speaker 3:One of the things that I've personally and professionally benefited from is, just because of the size of the LCMS and the resources that you all have, we're able, and because of your grace to include us too, we're able to join you in some things like Lutherans for Life. I mean, I don't know if it's a third or something like that of the national board right now is comprised of AFLC members, and so we've just got a great partnership there and recognizing it's not our deal, it's your deal, but that you invite us in and we can work together that way, and I think that's great. I had a great experience last year with the Minnesota South District. It was a coordinated effort with the North District as well. But the state of Minnesota has been up to some political shenanigans I'll just call it that way and I mean some stuff that was just very blatantly oppressive towards Christians and Christian groups and organizations, and I was invited to be a part of having a Lutheran response to that officially, you know, and to have my voice heard by state officials was something I was just really grateful to partner with with my Missouri Synod brothers and sisters that way at our Capitol, and so I just I'm just grateful for some of the, some of the ways that we've been able to work together that way.
Speaker 3:You know, we certainly have some disagreements on on some structure, uh and and polity things. There's there's some differences there, Uh, theologically I I wouldn't say that we necessarily disagree much on on communion, but we do practice it differently, Uh, just a little in terms of, you know, I think our altar is probably more open than than, uh, the vast majority of of Missouri Synod altars and uh, and so we've got some differences there. But overall I'm just grateful for the work and the ministry of the LCMS. Hey, that's wonderful Jack.
Speaker 4:No, I'm just kind of curious that openness, is that a congregational decision or is that a national body decision on that position for communion?
Speaker 3:Probably the best answer is that it's a congregational decision. I would say that within congregations I've seen some that will practice their openness. That actually isn't that far from, if at all, from the Missouri Synod practice of more. If you want to use closed communion or closed communion, however you want to say that, so we do have a few that do that and that's their decision. But the vast majority of our congregations would say you know, do you believe that you're a sinner? Are you a sinner? Do you need God's forgiveness? Do you believe that Christ forgives your sins? And do you believe that Christ is really present in the bread and the wine? And if that's true, then if you can answer those questions in the affirmative, then you're welcome at our table.
Speaker 2:That's good. I am not talking about formation anymore on podcasts publicly, but I am curious about how you raise up leaders in your church body and not just pastors. What is that upward draft? This is a leadership podcast. What does that upward draft of leadership development look like in the AFLC?
Speaker 3:So officially, that happens at the congregational level first and foremost, especially when you're talking about lay leadership. We haven't had a very robust or intentional work that I've observed over the years in discipling lay leaders. We have had some of it, but it's for a very specific group and that's for lay pastors, and that's maybe another difference that we would have with the LCMS. We're more open to lay pastors serving congregations and we have a roster for lay pastors who can get licensed with us and go through some of that vetting and accountability that we talked about earlier. But even then we have a lot of churches that are served by lay pastors who aren't rostered with us and we don't know who they are, you know, or anything like that, which is, I think, a little bit unique that way, and that's a congregational authority to do that.
Speaker 3:Yep, yep. So the congregation has the authority to do that. So we have had some mechanisms for developing leadership, pastoral leadership for laymen and then other, you know, rostered ordained pastors are invited to join some of those sessions. Women can join those sessions too. We don't have a path for rostership or ordination for women. We, I would say we're very similar with the LCMS in that, in in that regard, and what we believe about, about the, about women in the office of of the ministry, but, um, but there are certainly invited to take some of those leadership classes, uh, that are designed more for lay leaders, but that's, that's it and it's. It's one. It's historically been just kind of one week a year, um, of uh, usually in-person uh classes here on our campus and and that's about it. So, uh, what?
Speaker 3:When I came into office, um, I hired uh, uh a ministry associate, an assistant, who, uh, that was my number. First thing that I put on his job description was develop a leader's training program and you can incorporate our licensure stuff for lay pastors. But I want it to be much more broad in scope than that, because we've got a kind of a gap here. We just haven't done a great job of, in my opinion of intentionally providing resources and training and encouraging leadership, not just pastorally. But you know, we are a.
Speaker 3:One of the identifying markers of who we are is our emphasis on the value of lay leadership at the congregational level and the national level. All of our national boards require us to have majority lay representation, and so if we value that, we should be investing in promoting and discipling lay leaders, and so we've been working on that here for the last couple of years, and then now this year we've got kind of an initiative put together where I put some material together and am making that available for me to go out and start doing some training in our districts. Even I would do it congregationally too, but I think you have a broader reach if you can catch multiple congregational representatives in one event, and so we're really trying to trying to improve in that area.
Speaker 2:How's it being received? You're training Great.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we're in the early stages of it. I actually was just writing a report for our national convention, which happens in June, kind of kind of presenting it. But I've already had some events where I've spoken at it and there's there's a hunger for it just because I think it's been a it's been a need that hasn't been met yet, and so I'm excited to see what happens.
Speaker 2:Well, you're using your coaching and PE background to shape your education right. Coaches are obviously the best. Coaches are teachers, those that offer words of wisdom and care and then get all of God's people out into the kingdom, expanding work and giving them the word and and which we have, and the way then of Jesus to carry out in all of our different vocations Gospel proclamation, praise, be to God. So how has coaching kind of shaped your leadership as president?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean, you kind of said it.
Speaker 3:You know the people kind of chuckle a little bit when, when I say that my, my bachelor's degree was in physical education, I went to school to be a gym teacher, that seems to be a little bit of a leap to them for whatever reason.
Speaker 3:But I have, you know, that training that I received really gave me a passion and a joy in teaching. You know, that's where I really started to learn that that God had gifted me, uh, to be a teacher and and so I think that that has that has really helped me. And then, and then the coaching side of things, um, I think, really opened my eyes to what it takes to lead a team and and, uh, um, that's where I really first kind of got introduced to some of these leadership principles and I saw firsthand the consequences, good and bad, for different leadership decisions. And so I haven't coached for probably almost 15 years, so I haven't maintained that I just get to be an armchair coach now watching games on TV, but. But I would definitely attribute my background in it to kind of starting to open my eyes, to see my, my desire to not only not only develop quality leadership traits in myself, but to then teach it to others.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we talk about difficult conversations maybe last question here a lot and we have them quite frequently in our congregation right to love and challenge one another on. It could be around a structure, a financial decision. It could be around maybe a culture that's being established that is less than helpful. And you know, gossip is always a thing. And, jack, I'm not speaking to any one thing, if you're trying to guess. I'm just speaking what we know the way Satan works, right, he seeks to steal, kill, destroy and divide us.
Speaker 2:And so leadership at the local level is it's constantly saying where are we going? This is the way I like to define kind of leadership. Where are we going? So that's a vision. How are we going? So that's a vision. How are we going to get there? We're going to work together. That's strategy. And then, how well are we loving one another on the way to there? Like Jesus loved, and Jesus loved through both words of encouragement and words of challenge, and that's culture. So how are you trying to lead like that and get people? Because the tendency, people that disagree with one another, they'd rather keep it to themselves because uncomfortable conversations they're named that for they're uncomfortable. So we just rather sweep it under the rug, and I think in a German, norwegian, scandinavian kind of culture we can have a tendency not to be as kind of forthright to one another's face as we could and should be talking to one another about places where we disagree, and so your perspective as you lead in the AFLC toward having difficult conversations, micah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, one of the things I appreciate about our group is we really try to foster a family feeling type culture, which has two edges to that, because I think that on the negative side you can create kind of a very inward looking group, right, and that can be problematic too. But seeing that we are the family of God, that we are brothers and sisters and I use marriage sometimes as an example of this Marital unity, okay, doesn't always mean unanimity, right, and that's true not just in a marriage but in a church council or any kind of leadership board. And I've seen firsthand where leaders inappropriately demand unanimity to define unity and that's abusive, frankly. And we need to be able to cultivate and foster a culture where people are free to disagree and that shouldn't be that hard for us. I think we make it harder than it needs to be. But I think if we start with this baseline, that we are brothers and sisters in Christ, that's that family thing. And we are loved, we are redeemed, we are saved, we are justified and made an heir of heaven by grace, through faith in the crucified and risen Jesus Christ. That is our identity, that is our status Now. We don't need to prove ourselves to others, we don't need to have our way or else or anything like that, but we can have joy in working together. We can learn how to disagree well.
Speaker 3:And one of the things that I really appreciate about Lutheran theology is that it quote embraces tension, and I think even of, like the doctrine of salvation. Okay, we aren't double predestination people, we're not Calvinist and we're not decision theology people either. We let God's word say that you are dead in your trespasses and sins and you've been saved by God's grace, and I praise God for that. And I think that that mindset applies to some of these other practical things too. And so we can learn to live together and live well together, even though we disagree on some things. And I don't want to use like the doctrine of salvation as an example of that, because that is pretty basic.
Speaker 3:But you know, like in the AFLC, we've got some differing beliefs about eschatology. Okay, we don't have an official statement on eschatology as a, as an association, there's freedom there. We, like I said, we don't ordain women, but there's freedom within the congregation for women to have different positions of leadership and people have different opinions on how that should go, and we can learn to disagree on that and still be united under this one tent, and I just really appreciate that. I praise God for that. I think when we can learn to communicate well and openly and honestly together, again recognizing and remembering that we are a part of the same family, then I think that gives us grace for one another and patience and love and a willingness to work together, even though we don't always fall in line on every single issue with everyone. Jack comment.
Speaker 4:That's beautiful. I love that. The description of how we hold things in attention right, I think that's a beautiful thing to know. There are areas where we even now the church has to have robust conversations about what scripture means on certain things and how that actually gets applied in the local church. The Lutheran confessions are really, really great, but there's still a lot of things that we freedom to have these challenging conversations to speak truth and love and to be challenged by others in the spirit of love. Right?
Speaker 3:Look yeah, sorry to interrupt. Great Go for it.
Speaker 3:I mean our people. When I say our people, I mean I don't mean our members, I'm talking about our culture, our society. I think they're hungry for that. I think part of where the church capital C can get into trouble a little bit is when we refuse to talk about these things. And if we can foster an environment of openness and there isn't a question that you can't ask, let's wrestle with it, let's deal with it, let's look to scripture. I think our broader culture is hungry for that message and I see a great opportunity again for the church capital C so that includes all of us to really witness to the people around us.
Speaker 2:group is because exactly they started to say caesar's not lord, jesus is lord. And oh, gentile women, poor, there's no more. Now I'm shouting out to galatians right, and no more. Our new identity has come because our life is hidden with christ and so there's very little that you can say to me. That's going to offend me, because my baptismal identity says he's already said the first and the final word in who I am and therefore I live out the best, the best posture.
Speaker 2:Then I just live out of the adventure of Christian freedom in trying to follow, by the spirit's power, the word and the way and the work of Jesus, knowing that it's all passively given and received. What do you have that you haven't received? It's all from him. And then I get to partner. I get a partner in carrying that gospel message out, regardless of whether I'm a pastor. I'm just an everyday guy out in the marketplace bringing the gospel. This is my new identity and my invitation, and going away from the power of positional leadership.
Speaker 2:It's good, we need leaders, but we need leaders who are after the heart and mind of Jesus, who took the low place, humbling himself even to the point of death, and will very rarely, if ever, use the voice of do this because I say so.
Speaker 2:You know, jesus, I've been wanting to say this for a while. Jesus came all authority so it's not like we're anti-authority at all All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. And then you can say Jesus, this is kind of a wild move. Therefore, I am sending you go and make disciples of all nations, how baptize and teach everything I've commanded you. I'm with you always, the very end of the age, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, judea, samaria, to the ends of ends of the world.
Speaker 2:And that's what we get to be a part of today. Because Jesus is coming back very, very soon and I pray he finds us united in walking through the hard stuff, cross-cultural, our different contexts that we find ourselves, and I'm praying we work up into him, who is the head and leader and Lord lover of our souls, and I'm grateful for your expression of leadership. I'm praying for the advancement of the gospel in the AFLC and we covet your prayers, President Germstad, as we carry out gospel expansion in the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. Any final words there, micah?
Speaker 3:Yeah, just grateful for this opportunity, grateful for you guys, grateful for our brothers and sisters in the LCMS. One of the most beautiful things to me is to see how God uses different groups to reach different people with the gospel and you said it well just our identity is so. We can rest so well in who we are, in Christ, that we don't need to be competing and I don't mean to imply that there's any undercurrents of that anyway either here but just to be able to have a spirit of thankfulness for how God is at work in another group, and I'm grateful for that and grateful for how God has used the LCMS for so many years and grateful for when he brings us together to work together on different things too.
Speaker 2:Amen, this is lead time. Please like, subscribe, comment wherever it is you take in these podcasts. And again, we're not having the conversation because we're leaving to join the aflc. As awesome as you are, micah, we're just praying for our church body and praying for the advancement of the gospel. People coming to know jesus in all of our churches takes all types of churches to reach all types of people and then carrying the message of christ out into our various vocations. Uh, please, comment and uh, please subscribe, whether it's on YouTube or wherever it is that helps get the word out and we'll take. I'm sure someone on the comment section is going to say, well, you guys should just leave and go to the AFL. No, no, no, we're a part of the family of faith here in the Lutheran Church, missouri Synod and I'm better. I'm better, micah, because you're my friend and brother in Christ and I'm praying for you, president Germstad, and your leadership in the AFLC. It's a good day. Go and make it a great day. Thanks so much, micah, thanks Jack.
Speaker 4:God bless guys.
Speaker 1:You've been listening to Lead Time, a podcast of the Unite Leadership Collective. The ULC's mission is to collaborate with the local church to discover, develop and deploy leaders through biblical Lutheran doctrine and innovative methods To partner with us in this gospel message. Subscribe to our channel, then go to theuniteleadershiporg to create your free login for exclusive material and resources and then to explore ways in which you can sponsor an episode. Thanks for listening and stay tuned for next week's episode.