Lead Time
Lead Time
10,000 Voices Silenced? Why Commissioned Ministers Still Can’t Vote
Are 10,000+ commissioned ministers in the LCMS being overlooked at the highest levels of church leadership? In this eye-opening episode, Tim Ahlman sits down with Bob McKinney, Dr. Jonathan Laabs, and Audrey Duensing-Werner to confront the decades-long tension around voting rights and representation for commissioned ministers in the Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod.
Why, after 16 attempts across multiple conventions, is the Synod still resisting change? What's really holding us back: polity, fear, or a misunderstanding of power and ministry?
This conversation isn’t about titles. It’s about team, honor, and advancing the gospel in a post-Christian age. Whether you're a pastor, lay leader, DCE, teacher, or simply love your local church — this is a conversation the entire Synod needs to hear.
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This is Lead Time.
Speaker 2:Welcome to Lead Time. Tim Allman here. Jack Calberg has a day off. I pray the joy of Jesus is with you that you got your water, you worked out, you're moving your body, maybe you're driving into wherever it is. You're going to advance the cause of Christ, be it a local church, in your marketplace business. But you just want to learn, and that's what Lead Time is all about. And I got three guests today that are going to educate us on the topic of commissioned ministers in the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod.
Speaker 2:I have Bob McKinney with me. He is a 48-year DCE praise God, eight calls, three states. He has served as a marriage and family therapist, married for 54 years to his wife Eunice. What a joy. They have two adult daughters, one granddaughter. Hey, Bob, how you doing, brother? What a joy to get to know you today. Good to be with you guys. Okay, let's do it. Let's do it.
Speaker 2:We also have Dr Jonathan Labs. He is serving as the executive director of the Lutheran Education Association for 28 years and he has 48 years of Lutheran education experience. This is going to be a lot of fun, Dr Labs. How are you doing, brother? I'm great, thank you. Yeah, this is going to be good. And then we have Audrey Dunzine Warner. Audrey and I got to hang out at one of our Accelerator ULC gatherings. She has served as a DCE for 31 years. In the last almost three years now working with my brother, Pastor Dan Shetman, at Gloria Day in Nassau Bay. You doing well, Audrey, Great. All right, let's kick it off. Jonathan, go to you.
Speaker 2:Give us the overview of the history of commission ministers in the LCMS. How has it evolved over the years? Obviously we're going to get to the topic of commission ministers, amazing men and women, serving as DCEs, directors of outreach, DCOs we haven't Directors of Christian Outreach, haven't heard about them in a while. We also have, obviously, a whole bunch of administrators and educators who are serving under this kind of commission ministry banner. You're represented at gatherings like Kindle that's our DCE gatherings and Lutheran Educator Association gatherings that, Jonathan, you kind of put together. But as it relates to district and synod representation, it's been hard to figure out what to do with you guys. Where do they fit? So, yeah, that's where we're going to be hanging out today. Jonathan, give us a little bit of the history.
Speaker 4:The good news is we've had no problem figuring out what to do. So our calling is very clear and that's been a part of the real interesting dynamics of this over the years. We've all been a part of a lot of this through many of the years, but none of us go back to the very beginning of this, which is really the beginning of the Synod in 1847. As we look back, it's a little bit surprising sometimes to realize, you know, this problem isn't new. From the very beginning, from the onset, with the LCMS, it was constructed in the same way it operates right now, and there are two basic tenets to that that are written. One is the equality of congregations, which at that time were several dozen and of course today are many more. But the idea behind all of that, which has become debated today as well, is that every congregation has an equal vote. And then the other part of that is the balance of power and quoting there that would not be a term I would use, but from other documents the balance of power between clergy and laity and the fact that there would be an equal representation of those congregations. And then, from the beginning, there was the understanding that there were those who were not eligible to vote, and there were three categories that were listed in documents that we found. One was pastors, who aren't authorized to be the representative from their congregation. Secondly, there were candidates for the office of pastor, and then at that time, there were teachers.
Speaker 4:So from the beginning it was designed that there was this third category that would not be eligible to vote, even though and I want to make sure I emphasize this because a lot of people don't know it the constitution of the synod, from its inception, involved teachers as members of the synod. There are three categories of membership congregations, clergy and commission and so it's important to understand this. All started with that way back at that point. Just one point to make, and then there are a lot of other things to talk about. The word commission came later. Teachers were obviously the ones who were, pretty much from the beginning, a part of that ministry, along with the pastors. But as there were a variety of ministries that were formed over the years, the word commission minister came in in the 70s, 80s, as it was all being developed, and so the bylaws started reflecting the development, the training and the commissioning of those workers. So that group had different names along the way, but it's essentially based on the same premise.
Speaker 2:That's interesting Commissioned and I would include and I got a whole bunch of worship leaders that are probably mad at me right now that I didn't include all of our worship leaders. But there's a big bucket category in Synod and you are rostered, so you count but you don't get a say in who is leading in our various districts and Synod. That's been the general story, and the reason is then the professional and I hate using this word as well, but the professional or rostered church worker role would have a larger voice than the laity, and so we've kind of just said we're going to have pastor, we're going to have the lay man or woman be able to vote, but but commission ministers, you're in but you don't get a voice. Bob, anything more to add I know you've been thinking about this for quite a while to that history that Jonathan just shared, as I researched it coming out of Miami's convention and read the document that came out of COP coming out of Miami.
Speaker 3:I haven't got it right in front of me and before I'd say this in a microphone I would want to count this to make sure. But as I tracked backwards, the Senate's own document said that this issue has come up about 16 times in the cycles of Synod and district conventions. 16 times in Synod, okay, and there was one gap there of about 40 years or 35 years where it didn't come up. But it's resurged itself that many times. And then the current position I think is the resurgence has gotten some wheels by using one of the tools that put Christian ministers and a voice in the actual district convention floor, and so that tool is expanding and there seems to be a little bit more of a movement. So this is a timely conversation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's good. Can you give me a little bit of what is happening now at a number of districts, as we're kind of trying at the district level at least, which is, I would say, more simple than the national convention? Right, you'd think it'd be commensurate, but I think it is more complex at the national level. But districts are trying some creative things. My district in the PSD is trying some creative things. Would you give me and there's probably a variety of different things that are being tried Could you give us some of the variety of methods to have the commission voice at least be heard by those that are voting? Yeah, who would you like to respond there?
Speaker 3:Yeah, go ahead, bob. You start with Jonathan, who has longevity of using a tool that puts puts commission ministers voice from out of the floor committee status right on the on the floor of district conventions. But he's done it in NID. He's watched that happen over numerous cycles. That's kind of the mother, yes.
Speaker 4:What happened.
Speaker 4:Pastor Bill Hameis was president at the time and he decided that, beyond our ability to go to the microphone and speak, which has been there all along, it would be more important to be able to have the advisory delegates also actually vote in a preliminary way to give advice by their vote, vote in a preliminary way to give advice by their vote.
Speaker 4:And so it actually started with green and red placards that were handed to the delegates, the advisory delegates and, by the way, not just the commission, teachers, dces, but also the other advisory delegates that were pastors there, and then they would hold them up and they would actually look at those as a body ahead of time. With technology, eventually we were also given the voting devices, and that's what's happening in many of the districts right now. We just had our NID convention in March and so they would take a preliminary vote, we would vote as the others would do, everybody would see it, and then they go on to the main. Vote Didn't take place for all the votes or for elections, but for a good number of them, and that's been happening over, as Bob said, a few cycles.
Speaker 2:That's great, audrey, anything more. What have you experienced?
Speaker 5:Yeah, lots of conversation in the last, you know, several years at the at the root of the commission ministers and in their pockets of places from NADC to LEA. To that we need to educate, educate, educate and talk about it in our little pockets of influence around the Synod. And so it's coming to the surface much stronger than it has been years ago, just because people are like, hey, we have boots on the ground here um years ago. Um, just because people are like on hey, we have boots on the ground here, um, we are the ones that are immersed in the middle of ministry, um, uh, in our congregations and our schools, in our, um, in our places of influence, and so, um, let's have conversation about how we can have more of a voice in that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, it's, it's interesting. So what do you think is at the root of this? I mean, you have a topic that's been brought up, bob, 16 times. That's extraordinary Without a satisfactory conclusion. And I don't like power balance of power. I said it. Unfortunately, man, it's very power centric and those who have it and those who don't, and and then I think, the estimation that that other people want it.
Speaker 2:I'm going to throw something out right now. Uh, I do not do this podcast to become a leader at a district or national level at all, like that seems that that is the one of the furthest things from my mind. It sounds very, very difficult to do. The reason I'm just going to expose why I do this podcast is for the advancement of the gospel at the local level, whatever it takes to talk about things that help the local church thrive, and that could be first article realities, how healthy teams function, all the way to theology. We need to talk about the difficult points in theology for us to unite to advance the cause of Christ, and I think the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, confessional Lutheranism has a strong potential right now and this is we're going to see if it's realized a strong potential to be a real force for kingdom expanding good in the current climate of a post-Christian, pre-christian day and age in which we live. That's why I do this.
Speaker 2:So power is not my motive, not even close to that. But as it relates to the commission minister, it would be an imbalance of power many people say. So what is it that keeps us from having some sort of a satisfactory conclusion? To make sure, commission ministers are voting. And I'll just throw something out. We've had difference of opinion regarding women in ministry and their voice being heard, and obviously I'd love to go to you, jonathan. I mean, we used to not even have women as teachers, like a century ago, right? I mean we didn't even have educators. And so we're trying to respond to. Women are in these various and they have influence in these very. Oh, I don't know how this feels for us as a synod. Is that a little bit of what's behind it? I'm just teasing at why this has been such a difficult, difficult conversation to come to a satisfactory conclusion. It seems like we should be able to figure something out, jonathan.
Speaker 4:I'll go to you first and then we'll talk about why it is an issue for some simply because of lack of knowledge or fear or just not being trained, you know, into what ministry really is. I mean, it's not scriptural, it's not doctrinal. Ministry is ministry, mission is mission, and you know, we teach it and we profess it and we confess it together, and yet there's this human fear that comes into play and then there's the power part of it that is to me just dysfunctional. So in our church body we don't have the ability to make a lot of changes in many areas. This isn't the only issue that's been going down through decades that we've been trying to address over the years. But when you have the same people with the same structure over all of these decades perpetuating the same process Bob mentioned how many times this has formally come to the surface, but the reason nothing happens is that it's put aside in omnibus resolutions. It's not brought to the floor.
Speaker 4:We had a strong series of years from Dr Kucinich back in 2005, where there was some real progress being made toward sweeping changes and dramatic things that could happen in the Senate, and after four years there was a formal report made, some very progressive things that were suggested and brought to the convention and there were a whole bunch of changes that were made and there were a whole bunch of things that weren't this particular one.
Speaker 4:There was a very specific suggestion to modify our bylaws so that we could make these changes, because it's all just polity that we have the ability to do that and it was never brought to the floor because of strategies that were keeping it from there. It's a lot like our government and filibustering and all of that. I mean it's dangerous the way that that can keep us from progressing, and it happens at the district levels as well. But it's just. I've seen these conventions now for the last 35, 40 years. All of us have experienced that and it just doesn't change. It has that inability to be able to move forward and to be able to make those changes and in a church body that's changing and growing in a variety of ways that are so different than before, we have to find different ways of making those decisions.
Speaker 2:Audrey, anything to add?
Speaker 5:Yeah, I'm like, yeah, ditto right before. We have to find different ways of making those decisions. Audrey, anything to add? Yeah, I'm like, yeah, ditto right. I think like the underlying piece of this is fear. There's some sort of fear.
Speaker 5:I was telling somebody the other day that I started 31, really 32 years ago in ministry and women in ministry. We've come a long way, but it's been a lot of intentional movement forward and conversations and tilling the soil and raising up people that can have a loving conversation around that. And sometimes it's really oppressive to some. They'll look and they'll go. This is so hard because it's so daunting To take it on. It's like eating an elephant, right? You have to do those little tiny bites at a time. And actually, bob and John as all three of us have been visiting the last three or four years together we're like, yeah, we just got to start on that district level and continue. Just keep the conversation going, keep the conversation going, because it's so important and there are so many people who really truly are on the same page that we're on too. It's just like how do we break through that wall so that it doesn't just keep going back to the old pot of where we were in leadership?
Speaker 3:Yeah, bob Tim.
Speaker 3:I think, maybe to come from the history and then move to pretty recent history. One of the tools that's being deployed is that commission ministers have some representatives that are on the district floor and they have the ability to share advice before the vote is taken on the business issues not on elections, but on the business issues and those numbers are put on the screen as a perspective not as a vote, but as a perspective, sort of a snapshot, sort of here's where we are as commission ministers on that particular thing, and in PSD, it's amazing to me that the percentage of the vote meaning for and against those percentages almost mirrors the actual vote that comes from the pastors and the laypersons. Now, that happened last year, not last year, in our last 2022 cycle, but we didn't have a real contentious convention. It was pretty nice, okay. It was pretty nice okay. What happened then, coming out of Miami and then moving into Milwaukee, is this tool and some instructions in terms of how to use it. As we pass that around Then into Milwaukee, seven districts had utilized this tool or intended to utilize that tool, are intended to utilize that tool.
Speaker 3:Now, that's as Audria said. We need to start at the district level, I think, in order to affect the Senate level. But one of the strategies is if last cycle we had seven, what if we had teens? What if we had 13 or 14 next time? And next cycle, what if we are in the 20s? Out of the 30, some odd districts OK, that's a slow way to say hey, you know, the place didn't fall apart, the pastors didn't get run out of town and what happened is commission ministers were able to say who they are and what they do and what they bring to the ministry of our church that we all love and we're trained with. But that never. Those seven things never got out of the floor. Committee never made it to the floor.
Speaker 2:So for that to happen, the districts that are utilizing this advisory it's not a vote but advisory opinion using technology, pre-voting on non-elected positions or issues. I guess that model could be something that is used. A circuit could have a pastor and most every circuit has some sort of a commission minister, I would imagine across the synod right. So every circuit could have one advisory delegate who are going to offer their opinion prior to some of our issues, some of the resolutions that are getting voted on. Is that something you would like to write up a resolution toward, and has that been actually written? And this is what I, dr Labs, I think this is what you're saying right. We've sent on this resolution from districts and then it gets in a floor committee, gets kind of sidelined. Does that happen a number of times, jonathan?
Speaker 4:Well, it has, and there have been a number of very specific things and a number of general things that have been brought. Bob was referring to coming to the Milwaukee convention. There were some ideas that were being brought out and there was a report that was generated as a result of a study and, by the way, lots of great information and history and a lot of things were brought out about that but it generally concluded that we shouldn't go ahead this was what was told to the convention because we haven't been able to find ways to do it before. That's my analysis of it and there were a lot of things in there that just didn't make sense to me. So we keep perpetuating that.
Speaker 4:It didn't allow for a new way of looking at it and I think the ability for the Senate to be able to consider new ideas has to come with an openness to have that kind of dialogue on the floor and not cut things at the knees. Even in our district and NID where this was started, there were three opportunities to consider a resolution from three congregations about new ways of looking at voting and even in our district it was put into omnibus and it never even got to the district floor, so it went backward at the district level when we were making progress. All of those things are because, again, we have a system that doesn't allow us to be able to continue to bring things out and to be open enough to talking about it and when we had great opportunities, like we did in the late 2000s, from 2005 to 2010, it comes to one convention and then it's cut and then you don't see it again, unless it's brought up afterward and then it's cut and then you don't see it again unless it's brought up afterward.
Speaker 2:Well, you all have such a profound heart for Jesus. He has a love for you and, obviously, educating young and old with the gospel. Praise, be to God. And part of our character development is handling difficult conversations and I don't understand why we can't talk about things publicly, on podcasts or whatever, and we can disagree agreeably. I don't. That's been one of the biggest I causes for concern for me over the seven, eight years I've been doing. This podcast is inviting people on that. I know I have a difference of opinion. I'm not going to. We can still be brothers and have differences of opinion and and have open discourse. I think it's a great day and age in which we live for the church to model public discourse in a healthy, constructive way where we're going to agree on way more than we disagree on. For sure we're in the same house, right? We're in the same church community. So any thoughts, audrey, on why we struggle so much to have difficult conversations in the synod?
Speaker 5:Not having enough education about it, conversations about it. I think it ultimately comes down to fear, like the fear of the unknown. Right In 2025, we should be able to sit at a table, each of us have a seat at the table and be able to wrestle with that together in love, in the name of Jesus, and the richness of that, the richness of the wrestling of that conversation anytime I've had really good wrestling conversations where my opinion is completely different than the person across the table. It has sharpened me. Sharpened me to a place of where my heart has been open to really understanding the whole picture of what it is and seeing the movement of the Holy Spirit in it all, rather than shutting it down and not allowing the Holy Spirit to have a bigger movement in this than right. It's just, it's all of that kind of stuff.
Speaker 5:I know, as John and Bob and I have had lots and lots of conversations around this lots of Zoom, calls on steps to take, continually moving this conversation forward.
Speaker 5:One of the things that Bob has said and I don't know where the quote came from, but I remember it and I connect it to Bob is he said if it wasn't for the commission minister, the face of the gospel would be different in our synod, and that's so rich to me to say to invite us to have a seat at that table for conversation. And it is not a power thing at least not in our hearts. It's not a power thing, it's a. It's a because we are part of the part of the entire community. We're, we're commissioned entire community. We're commissioned, we're trained, we're rostered, we work on the boots on the ground, in our places and spaces that we minister to children, youth and their families throughout the Senate, and so God is speaking to us and using us in powerful ways in our local places and spaces, and so to not have a voice then on the national level is just unheard of.
Speaker 2:Bob, anything more to say there?
Speaker 3:I think of some of the descriptors that we use for ourselves in commission ministry, and a helpful one is that we consider ourselves to be and train people coming out of schools, that we are second chair people, and if that card could be played more, that would be helpful to knock down some of this fear thing that we're in team.
Speaker 3:We're linked to a pastor. Whether he's good, bad or ugly, you know, we're linked to that pastor and what happens there is critical in terms of the tentacles that commission ministers have into the community through their schools, through their preschools, through their youth ministry, those kinds of things. And what we do is we bring people to know who Jesus Christ is and to build into them a desire to be baptized, into that. And that's the pastor's function, that's what we do. We bring them in in that kind of way, not fearful at all about any kind of takeover of power. It's ministry and it's all about Jesus and it's bringing people to Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. That's what we know and that's what we love and I don't think we play. We're second chair, we're linked to a team.
Speaker 4:I think the average parishioner in the Synod doesn't realize that we are called into the public ministry. So this is what differentiates in the way that it was intended in the beginning, that this is the reason that we are fully members of Synod, because we are a part of that public ministry. Not Word and Sacrament totally that's the pastor's public ministry, but we're a part of that public ministry to not warden sacrament totally that's the pastor's public ministry, but we're a part of that public ministry to work on behalf of the church. That's why the call, that's what leads to the call and that's why the distinction of the roster status, not over and above anybody else, because we work in team now with a growing majority of others who are in ministry, who are a part of that in our places, in our schools, in our congregations, in our communities. But there's a special calling for those who are trained and equipped for that and I think that not to have those people who are in that particular position of public ministry in part, not to be able to have the same ability to be able to make decisions and to be able to advance and move things forward by voting I know the excuses that have been used in a lot of the reports is that voice is enough and that's the way it should be, and we just disagree.
Speaker 4:It's like in the American public how would you not allow somebody who is a citizen of the United States to vote? It just doesn't make sense to suggest that somebody can speak and not vote. Somebody who is a citizen of the United States to vote. It just doesn't make sense to suggest that somebody can speak and not vote. It's a right and in our church it's especially something that needs to be addressed. So it never has made sense. There's certainly no scriptural or doctrinal reason for it not to happen. It's purely the ability of our church not to be able to make those changes.
Speaker 2:Just thinking of one. Has there ever been a time when the commission minister was placed as a lay vote, like they would have an opportunity to have a commission minister? Because I don't like that. I don't think that's a great answer either, because I think we need the lay vote. You've been called into public ministry, so yeah, even as I'm kind of throwing that out there, I don't think it's satisfactory.
Speaker 4:So we've thrown out some it's a part of the conundrum and it's been taken both ways.
Speaker 2:You know there isn't an easy answer for it, but there actually have been suggestions and solutions, like I said in that in that 2009 report that made a lot of sense. That don't upset the balance. You just have to look at it differently. And was that solution the advisory voice? You just have to look at it differently.
Speaker 1:And was that solution the advisory voice.
Speaker 4:No, it was the voting voice. It was one of the ways of yeah, I know NID spent a lot of time on this and other districts did too. When you look at the synodical structure, you don't have direct representation from congregations anyway. Right, you don't have 6,000. That was changed at that one convention to have that for the election of the president. So that became the popular vote, so to speak, from all the congregations. But for everything else, we still have the circuit.
Speaker 4:So it's at the circuit level that even some of the people who are resistant to other ideas started thinking. Maybe at the circuit level it's all selected by congregation, so we're not taking away from that. But why should the congregations in a circuit be limited to just two voices? Why not have three voices from a circuit and change that structure that would allow for a commission minister to be one of them? You're not taking anything away from congregations, you're just adding additional votes. There's nothing wrong with that, but that was the one that never made it to the floor of that convention in 2010. And then it's taken all this time, for a variety of reasons, that when you have different ideas that come back again, it's hard to reintroduce them, but there are very specific suggestions that were raised and sometimes are never addressed.
Speaker 2:That's well for the circuit that doesn't have a commission minister, which I think would be very, very few, very very few. They could just have two lay votes right.
Speaker 4:Absolutely.
Speaker 2:There's nothing that would exclude that.
Speaker 4:And that's along the what I know is a controversial stance, but in terms of sizes of congregations, that there are a lot of factors about changes in our church that we need to address to better take care of business, and this commission minister is just one of those. But we have the same problems with some of the other issues about equality and balance of power and those kinds of things.
Speaker 2:How many commission ministers are there in the LCMS, Jonathan? Do any of you have those numbers?
Speaker 4:There are over 10,000 who are listed in the statistical reports right now, who are on the roster, and that's inclusive of those who are active, those who are emeriti and those who are candidates. But those 10,000 all have the ability to be selected and, by the way, it should be stated, this is the basis A long time ago. It actually originally was the number of commission ministers who could be advisory delegates at a convention was one for every 30 in the Senate, and that changed a few decades ago to become one to 60. So right now one person out of every 60. So you take that 10,000, now one person out of every 60. So you take that 10,000, divide it by 60, and that's how many delegates can be elected to come to synodical conventions as advisory delegates, and that number has been fairly consistent.
Speaker 4:That was pointed out in this last report because districts are serious about selecting those. In NID I think we have 13 or 14 to represent the number of delegates that we have, and larger districts, like all three of ours in Texas and Pacific Southwest, have a dozen or more. Maybe that we can select. Some districts only have one or two, but it's representative in that sense. So we have the ability to have advisory delegates at least elected on a regular basis and sent to conventions, jess Noble.
Speaker 2:Hey, this is helpful. I'm praying for change along these lines. I'm grateful for the districts that are giving at least advisory voice, representation at our district conventions, and praying that a solution can come at the national level as well. Let's close with something that's positive. Let's close with something that's positive. Let's close with give me the values, the top three values, that a pastor, because pastors come out and we're like you know, I may be in team, I may be sold.
Speaker 2:You know, I don't necessarily know how to lead a team per se. I mean, I have a lot to learn as I come out of seminary, and that was definitely the case for me. You come out though what are top three values, or even like dreams for how commission ministers and pastors would just start to work together. How do they team? Well, and Audrey, I'll go to you first, because you've experienced the power of working with amazing pastors who see you value. You want to elevate your voice and leadership influence in the local congregation. We'll just start with you, audrey.
Speaker 5:Yeah, absolutely yeah, I've been gifted with some amazing team pastors.
Speaker 5:First of all, they do understand team ministry and some of that is the experiences that they've had throughout the years. But secondly, their door is open for me to have conversation with them. That's a lot of it. They pray with me. They look at me as a valid, integral part of the entire team that I come with some expertise, entire team that I come with some expertise, and they usually sit down with me and we brainstorm and dream and vision together. They pray for me, they walk with me, they encourage me and I hope I do the same with them as well, and so a lot of that and a lot of that it was with any kind of relationship. Right, the ones that I look and go these were huge mentors in my life and huge team connecting people are those that have been open to me, sitting down and us even rustling through the hard and praying and spending time of confession and absolving each and all of that, forgiving each other moments and it's just that building of a relationship with each other.
Speaker 2:So it's all about it's all about relationship. Bob, anything to add there in terms of how pastors and commission ministers work together?
Speaker 3:Maybe to share a model, as we're, as we shared from our district models of how to write an overture that would include these specific things and also memorialize Senate to. To consider it, it's always a kind of the last thing to do to keep the pot stirring and stuff are kind of the last thing to do to keep the pot stirring and stuff. One of the things we decided to do that worked really well for us is that in our district convention we sat the first time we used the tool of the pre-advisory on the screen. We recruited 30 commission ministers to be representatives for us. Now we're a big district, we had all those resources. We could do that kind of thing.
Speaker 3:What we did with them then is we sat them at the convention floor between lay people and pastors and we trained them to say, as the vote is hitting the floor, you've already read the thing. Ok, you know this is coming up, and now there it is, and you got it in front of you that they would turn to the layperson and say, if this one passes, how does that affect your church? How does that affect your school, pastor, if this one passed? Is that a helpful thing for you? There was conversation on the floor before the advisory vote was given. It wasn't perfect, but it was a great attempt and we're going to do it again in our district convention now coming up at the end of June. Not sit them in their own section, but sit them so that they can talk before they even approach. Here's what we're going to do with this resolution.
Speaker 2:That's awesome, bob. Jonathan, any thoughts on a vision for commission ministers and pastors working together both on the floor but just practically day in and day out?
Speaker 4:Just the word language. So how we talk about ministry, how we refer to us not we or they and this is true also for those who aren't on the roster. I mean in any given ministry team. Also for those who aren't on the roster, I mean in any given ministry team, whether it's with a school or without a school, whether it's big or small, we are together in ministry and we're working on behalf of the congregation. And by saying we all the time, and using the word ministry and minister easily and freely.
Speaker 4:And there are people for whom that's easy, there are people for whom that's not so easy. But it's so important to say it publicly, and not just at the congregational or local level, but at the district level and at the synodical level. And it's like anybody in any public figure. When you hear the terminology, when you see it written that way, when it's exemplified and modeled, it becomes more of a norm. And we don't have that as well as I wish we did at many levels. I just wish that we could do that more freely. It takes a lot of confidence and it takes security to talk like that, but to be able to do that as easily as we are here, publicly, I think would help to increase the cause, so I'd pray for more of that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was just thinking about my leadership team right now and, audrey, I bet it's pretty similar in your makeup I only have two ordained pastors out of the 12. And then there's four, and we don't even talk this way, just we're all together before commission ministers, and then the other half dozen are lay men and women that are just uniquely gifted in our context to serve and, like there is I think it's Walther and many of the reformers the pastor's job, one of our jobs, it's word and sacrament, obviously, but as it relates to the way we team together to advance the message of Jesus, my call is to elevate the voice of the other, wherever they happen to be, and, in turn, honor leads to honor and respect, right, and in turn, part of the lay call is to elevate the voice of the pastor to say we need one another, and that puts pride away. Now, pride always is attacking, right, but that helps put pride away to say I really, really need you. And if we miss on the basics, which the basics are love, it's like Paul talked about this, right, if you miss on this, if you miss on honor and respect, outdo one another in showing honor and care and deference for one another. But I feel right now in the synod that we're struggling with this in showing honor and care and deference for one another. But I feel right now in the synod that we're struggling with this, showing honor to all of the gifted people, where would we be, apart from all of the parts of the body of Christ playing their role? And the pastor is important.
Speaker 2:But, my goodness, if it all is on the pastor's shoulder, we are going to fail miserably. Thankfully it's on God's shoulders, the Spirit's shoulders, and then going to fail miserably. Thankfully it's on God's shoulders, the Spirit's shoulders. And then it's about the church. It's not just about the pastor. If there's one point of emphasis that this podcast has had over the time, we believe that the voice of the pastor has become imbalanced in the LCMS and we need to, by the Spirit's power, include all of the voices in our synod to be heard. We need you desperately and I think not just commission ministers, but the lay men and women in our church. I'm praying you become more connected and concerned for the imbalance toward the voice of the pastor at all different levels in our church. Audrey, anything to say there as we're closing up? This has been a lot of fun in a kind of uncomfortable way, to be honest.
Speaker 5:Yeah, as I'm like thinking through, like what you said, I mean, certainly it's all about Jesus, only about Jesus, always and only about Jesus, and I look and go. It was exemplified to me so well early on in ministry and I'm constantly praying and thinking about that. How do I continually show? How do I get down and wash feet? How do I be in team ministry and use the language of we and really yes, surrender to Jesus to say what's my next best step in being in team ministry with pastors, lay people, other commission ministers, amen?
Speaker 2:Amen. Any closing comments? Bob, I'll go to you and then close to Jonathan. Closing comments.
Speaker 3:Appreciate the conversation. In the very beginning of me starting to work on this in 2019, 2020, I realized that one of the things that we have to do to create change is we have to train and talk and model with our own commission ministers the value of being in a district and what that district does for you and the value of being part of Senate, and that those voices are needed. Okay, because they have perspectives that you know that are different. And so in the beginning I knew, hey, even if it said, okay, it's done, commission ministers, you can vote, Would they elatedly run into district conventions and Senate conventions saying, yeah, I get to vote? No, they won't.
Speaker 3:Okay, we have to recruit them and train them and do them, because they've been taught it doesn't count and they've been taught by some of the things that we've been speaking to. So to have this conversation and share it with three other brothers and sisters is refreshing. Thank you for taking the lead on that. I kind of heard what you were hearing and you almost had a summary just a few moments ago, but for you, a pastor, to say, hey, let's open this conversation and use this tool to begin to continue the good work that the Lord has given us, so thanks, Tim.
Speaker 2:Amen, honored Bob. Grateful for you, jonathan.
Speaker 4:Yeah, my fear is for those that we're trying to recruit, to identify and recruit and bring in and retain into ministry. There are a growing number of disincentives for that. Whether it's perceived or whether it's reality, there are things that are making it tougher and tougher for thinking about what it would be like, even if they feel called to that ministry, that there are challenges to it. So we need to deal with those things. But we also need to make sure that they understand the right reason.
Speaker 4:As Audrey said, it's all about Jesus, it's about service, it's about the call, and I have to make sure that we also remind everybody all the great ways in which serving and being involved are there today. There are lots of ways within our districts, in our communities and in the church. We have floor committees. We have a lot of agencies that are making use of people in these areas. There are tremendous ways in which we can serve. So it's not at all a negative thing right down the road we're picking on certain things right now, but we need to remind people that they really are called into those ministries, they're appreciated and that there are opportunities to serve God in full-time and part-time ways. As long as we can do that together, we can do it joyfully and we can deal with the other challenges that we face.
Speaker 2:Amen, bob, jonathan, audrey, what a joy to be with you today. This is Lead Time, like, subscribe, comment. Wherever it is you take in this podcast, pray that this was helpful for you and if you've got a commission minister who has felt some of these feelings, hopefully they know they're not alone and I just really, really am grateful for all of the men and women who are serving 10,000 strong, plus hopefully more to come, through our wonderful Concordias. My goodness, do we have excellent training mechanisms there. I'm so grateful for the training I received there and for those that go through then the Colicbee program to also be rostered as commission ministers.
Speaker 2:It's wonderful. The water is warm, man. The kingdom expanding water is warm. Jump on in. Let's get after it in our local context to make the name of Jesus known. The days are too short to do anything otherwise. This is Lead Time and we'll be back next week with another fresh episode. It's a good day. Go and make it a great day. Jesus loves you episodes. It's a good day. Go and make it a great day, jesus loves you.
Speaker 1:Thanks Bob, thanks Jonathan, thanks Audrey, thanks Pam. You've been listening to Lead Time, a podcast of the Unite Leadership Collective. The ULC's mission is to collaborate with the local church to discover, develop and deploy leaders through biblical Lutheran doctrine and innovative methods To partner with us in this gospel message. Subscribe to our channel, then go to theuniteleadershiporg to create your free login for exclusive material and resources and then to explore ways in which you can sponsor an episode. Thanks for listening and stay tuned for next week's episode.