Lead Time
Lead Time
The LCMS Has a Toxic Feedback Problem—And It's Killing Church Culture.
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Why are so many LCMS churches stuck in cycles of insecurity, burnout, and unhealthy culture? In this episode, Dr. Kirk Triplett joins Tim Ahlman and Jack Kalleberg to expose the deeper issues plaguing leadership culture in the Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod. From toxic feedback loops to forgotten celebration, from unclear mission to constant comparison—this conversation digs deep into what’s quietly killing joy and mission in our churches.
We explore:
- How the LCMS avoids clarity by hiding behind “love God, love people”
- The difference between behavioral values and organizational values
- Why too many pastors are driven by insecurity and the 2% who complain
- What the church can learn from Starbucks, big toes, and baby baptisms
It’s time to rest, rejoice, and relax—without losing momentum.
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Speaker 3:Welcome to Lead Time, tim Allman, here with Jack Kauberg. It's a beautiful day to be alive, pray the joy of the crucified and risen one. We're recording this in Easter season. It is giving you a lot of passion, a lot of fuel to build relationships, to multiply disciples, to reach as many people with the gospel as possible in your local congregation, in your home, in your neighborhood, for sure. That's why the local church exists, which is to reach people with the gospel through word and sacrament. Praise God, jack. How are you doing, brother?
Speaker 4:Doing well, my friend. It's a beautiful day here in Arizona. We're in the last final gasps of nice weather before the heat comes, so we're savoring it, and I'm also dealing with the allergy consequences of it. Yeah, if you hear anything, frog in my voice.
Speaker 3:I'm dealing with the same stuff.
Speaker 1:It is what it is Well, today we have Kirk Triplett.
Speaker 3:I've been a guest on his podcast, Positive Mental Health of your Pastor podcast. He's got a wealth of knowledge to share with us. He's a 27-year pastor, differing roles. He's experienced the highs and lows of ministry, which is inevitable for all of us. He earned his doctorate in organizational leadership, same as myself, with the intent of helping the church, specifically the leadership of the church. From his research he's discovered how a pastor's positive mental health influences church members. He's created seminars, workshops for pastors, church leaders and congregations, and these resources offer pastors, church leaders and members tools that encourage organizational cooperation that builds a church up in love. He's got a book called Affirmed. There it is Building the Positive Mental Health of your Pastor. It's a practical guide giving people tangible and intentional tools to build leadership in their congregation.
Speaker 3:He is a new pastor at Zion Lutheran Church in El Paso, Texas. Shout out to everybody there in El Paso. That's my former community. Love that city for sure. He's been married since 1991. They have three adult children and four grandkids. Kirk, how you doing, brother. What a joy to be with you today oh well, thanks so much, I'm doing good.
Speaker 2:You know allergies or uh, you know, we're in kind of the same neck of the woods, sort of, so the wind has been. Uh, it's funny, I got to el paso and then the weather kept talking about dust events that they have in el pasoo, and so it's quite apocalyptic at times where you can't even see the mountains across the, you know, across the street. But no, it's been great being here. Love, being at this congregation I feel like you know we've been here for years is how it feels. So just a really good transition, good people and so, yeah, good to be here.
Speaker 3:Thanks, it's gonna be fun. Let's talk about the topic that you love to talk about and we do as well Organizational health. How do you define a healthy organization? Let's start there, kirk.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a. That's a great question. You know it's interesting those of us who have studied it. Or there's no, there's no shortage of different tools and assessments, and one and processes are really important. I know Jack's kind of, from what I've heard, a little more of a process guy. I'm not that guy. I appreciate them and I think they're important. I'm a culture guy. You know how do you create culture in that? And I think it's important they have both.
Speaker 2:And so when I was on vacation this last week with my family, my son's a pastor here in El Paso as well, and he's eaten up all these different leadership things. And so you talk about the widget assessment. You know, are you a wonder? Are you invention, are you discernment galvanizer enabler or one who has tenacity? And so he's trying to tell me what I am. And you know, I think he's right, one who has tenacity, and so he's trying to tell me what I am, and then you know, I think he's right.
Speaker 2:But the whole point is is I look at organizations and I feel that sometimes we can get so caught up in process and assessment and titles that we miss the big picture. And so for me, what I would define as a healthy organization is one that has a clear missional focus, and this is even with outside the church too. So years ago, I worked for I think I can say this Starbucks, and I was a regional coffee guy for Northern California, and I used to do teach classes, and at that time the mission statement was to become the premier purveyor of coffee, while maintaining the compromising principles as we grow. So everything we did kind of filtered through this, and so I always find it's really important that there's a clear mission for any organization, so that when you have ideas come to the table, you look at them. There might be great ideas, but do they really fit the mission of that organization? So ours, obviously. You know the church. You go find mission statements everywhere. It's always love God, love people, right, I mean, that's kind of how it is, which isn't wrong and that's right, but go make disciples is the mission that God gave us, and so I think the missional focus, though, also needs to have defined expectation and outcomes, because I think sometimes we come up with these mission statements we can pick on love God, love others, but what does that look like, right? What's the expectation? How does that practically work out in everyday organizational life.
Speaker 2:Back to my coffee example. Everything was how do we become the premier purveyor of the finest coffee in the world while maintaining our uncompromising principles as we grow right? How do we do that? And so we filter everything through that, and I think it's a great plumb line for people in your organization to go this is who we are. You know, christ Greenfield is not Zion El Paso.
Speaker 2:Some of it's contextual, obviously, which I'll get into in a little bit with some of the other questions, but we look at it. We have to make sure that we and I think also when you look at your mission of your healthy organization be willing to assess it every so often, be willing to have a good team of people and go is this who we are? Because, especially in the church, dynamics change, people pass away, people move, people come into your congregation and dynamics change. Is this still the proper mission for our current culture, our current mix of people? And so that's the number one for a healthy organization. I think also a culture of collaboration is really important, which increases individual investment in the mission of the organization.
Speaker 2:And so one of the things I love to do is cheer for people and to kind of unleash them and say you know, hey, let's talk about your ministry. What does it look like? How can I help? How can I come alongside, how can I help with direction? But then, when we talk about steps to do it, I want them to feel empowered to go do it right. And so a lot of times after I have conversations, people come and say well, what do you think about this? I'm like great, love it, go for it. I mean, you know most of it, because I want them to. I want people in the organization to feel that it's their organization, it's their church, it's not my church. I mean, we know it's God's church, right, but when it's, this is their church and this is their community of people, how can they serve it, how do they the freedom to serve it in creative ways without and I want them to, hopefully me, with the elders and myself is that when they come up with something, all we do is clap and say go for it, keep going, we love it right. And that comes, too, from respect and worth of all individuals. And you know we see this in the church that Paul wrote to. I think it's in the Corinthians.
Speaker 2:You know, don't look at the toe as being something that's you know it's very important to have the toe. You might cover it up, but it's very important. Everybody is very important in the organization. I always often tell the story when we talk about this my great uncle. We went to visit him years ago. He was up in Redding, dunsmuir, california, above Redding. And we get there and there's a note on the door that says Bud's in the hospital. He's long since gone. But so we go to the hospital and he was mowing his lawn and he fell backwards and cut off his big toe and half of his second toe and he had to take therapy to learn how to balance and walk again. And you wouldn't think, oh, it's just a big toe, big deal. But that was such an important aspect that he needed that.
Speaker 2:And I think that's what the organization to. Those big toes, those ones that you cover up, are just as important as as those of us who have our face in front of people all the time. In fact, I would almost say they're more important of the stabilization of the body. And so I think respect and worth. And then I think the last thing for a healthy organization. You got clear, missional focus, a culture of collaboration, respect and worth of all individuals. And the last thing would be consistently asking what's next? And I think that that gives you a culture of discovery, a culture of expectation, a culture of how do we meet, how does this organization meet the needs of whatever context we're in? Or how do we continue to grow? Because I think sometimes we just can kind of say, oh, we're good, we're good like this, and I think we find this in the church.
Speaker 2:Often you get a church that says that has 120 capacity in the pews, right, and you're like, oh, we get to 100. We're fine, we kind of feel full. Well, no, because we don't want to entertain. What does it look like to have a second service? What does it look like to have an appropriate overflow? What does it look like to serve? And so I think it's always going what's next? And in the church context, how can I serve our community, our community, first and foremost, that calls this their home church. Where are they serving in the community? That's another thing I like to find all the time. Where are they serving in the community? How can we as a church get behind what they're doing? So I'm sure you have plenty of things to say so that was very comprehensive kirk.
Speaker 3:It's like you've thought about this before and I'm grateful for it hey, you talked about let's go back to missional focus, and then you dovetailed on expectations and outcomes. When I hear outcomes, I think objectives, goals, right. When I hear expectations, I think values. And then I heard you kind of dovetail down to respect. I heard a differentiation. I would differentiate organizational values for us it's jesus, bible, lutheran, leadership, community mission right from behavioral values. And I would couple then respect for everyone's voice and that that even kind of moves into we do things together here, the culture of of collaboration that you talked about. Your your point number two Would you equate expectations with values? And how do you differentiate values, behavioral values, from, maybe, organizational values?
Speaker 2:Kirk, yeah, so now you're kind of talking discipleship really is really what it boils down to.
Speaker 2:What does it look like to create disciples in the church? And so, obviously I think there is, if that is part of your missional value, which I think it should be for every church, we're here to make disciples. The Great Commission that does transfer to some degree to behavior, right, I mean you take in sinners who are saved by grace and we are growing in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ, as the Holy Spirit is changing us moment by moment from glory to glory into the very image of Jesus Christ. I like to look at my definition of what the work of the Holy Spirit does is the Holy Spirit is leading us and guiding us into all truth while working the very disposition of Christ into us. So that disposition piece it would show forth in behavioral.
Speaker 2:Now I think that the question is and maybe I'm not understanding the question completely, but the question is if the organization expectation doesn't match the behavioral expectation and I think they kind of go hand in hand If your job is and your mission is to create disciples and to make great lovers of Jesus, those people who share the good news, who are on mission themselves because we're ambassadors of Christ and we're pleading with people to be reconciled to God through Jesus Christ. I think that if that's one of the main missions of the church and that outcome, that expectation, should be seen individually and collectively as a congregation.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's very good, Jack. Anything to add?
Speaker 4:Well, yeah, I think I just wrote this big manifesto on the topic of mission, vision and value language and it was kind of researching all of the best thinking on these topics and at a very high level you craft a mission statement to define why you exist. And it's very important because every single church can just I mean like you could press the easy button and say, well, we follow the Great Commission, but that's true for every church, but every church has its context and its community and its unique challenges and its unique opportunities. And so you have to flex into that and say what makes us unique in the Great Commission and then write a mission statement that reflects the uniqueness of your organization. Just like we as individuals are part of a body, congregations are part of the body and they're kind of filling in different roles and reaching different people. So you have to write a mission statement that reflects your uniqueness right and like boldly leans into that. And then we have these value.
Speaker 4:Well, I'm going to pause real quick there. Then we have a vision statement, and I think what happens a little bit with some of the vision language is we don't get specific with it. So we might say, hey, our vision, it might be a shortened version of our mission statement multiply disciples or whatever. In reality, you want to say, hey, we want to plant five churches over the next 10 years. That's a proper vision statement. So vision statements really ought to be concrete and actually give some definition about what we're pulling into.
Speaker 4:And then your values language are creating your guardrails, both positive and negative guardrails for you as you're moving forward and leaning into it. So it's it's basically saying these are the, these are the non-negotiables as we move forward into this, into this vision, into this mission. Right, these things are not going to be compromised. And a really great um, a really great filter for those and this can be a little bit harsh but your value statements should be held so passionately that you're willing to lose people over it. Right. If people said, no, you need to abandon this value or I'm leaving, it's like, okay, we'll help you find another church that fits you better. Or I mean, ideally you would try to disciple them to understand that the importance of that value, right, but if that doesn't work, we're going to lovingly help you find another congregation where that fits your values better. Right, but it's held so deeply here that you're willing to lose people over it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that was a good, helpful summary, Jack. Let's talk about your what's next? Human beings desperately need a next. Human beings desperately need a next. The status quo, a lack of inertia, a lack of momentum, it kills the human being. I mean, just think, biologically, for us there's no set it and forget it. As it relates to our bodies, taking care of our bodies, Either we're progressing or we're regressing. And the same is exactly true for the local congregation and the pastors, and this is more art than it is science. Right, the pastor's call is to I've said it before, Jack disappoint people at a rate they can handle. Or when you sense, because you will sense oh, we've arrived or we completed. Well, one we should celebrate. I think we don't often celebrate wins enough. We're always to the next. But then we say and here's the next hill. Psychologically, it's never about arriving, it's about reaching the pinnacle of one hill and seeing another hill in the distance.
Speaker 2:Anything more to say toward the necessity of next, Kirk, yeah, so I think that it's a weird tension that we find ourselves in because we accomplish something and we just want to rest and enjoy it, but then there's something that drives us and I kind of look at it. As you know, you eat a great meal and you can enjoy that for a moment, but the reality is you're going to want another meal and you're going to try to recreate that meal. And you realize the challenge is we try to recreate stuff that God says I have something more for you. So when I was doing music full time at a large church in New Mexico, I had one guy that kept coming up and asking me for you got to do this song. You got this song and this song was, like you know, in the Jesus movement in the 70s and I wasn't in the kumbaya too much, was, like you know, in the Jesus movement in the 70s and I wasn't in the kumbaya too much. Finally, I just said, fine, I'm going to do it Right. So I did it.
Speaker 2:And he came up to me afterwards. He goes well, that didn't feel the same and I said, exactly. I said you're trying to create. God met you in this Right. God met you in that. Great Praise the Lord, but now he has something better for you. So you got to look forward, and I think that when we look at, even when Jesus ascension, you know they're looking up and why are you doing? Go do what he says Go do stuff. You have things to do and we are created to do stuff, and I think that that's one of the images of God that he has placed upon us uniquely is that we love to create, and so I think that you know why.
Speaker 2:You know, if you write a great song, why write more? I wrote one great song, right, or I wrote a best sermon ever. Why write more? And it's like well, because we're our own worst critics too, right? We say, well, it wasn't that great, absolutely. You know. I mean, you've probably been there, tim. You've given what you thought was a great sermon and no one said anything to you, and you're like what? And then you thought you flopped and everyone's like, oh, that was so great. So that's why we know it's the Holy Spirit.
Speaker 2:But the Holy Spirit is always moving us forward too, and so when we think about the what next? The Great Commission is not a stat, it's not something that just maintains static right. We have to constantly move forward. And so I always tell people you know, god didn't save you so you can sit. He saved you to send you. And so you know why are you being saved? Well, so that I can be with Jesus. So that's great, you're forgiven, that's wonderful, he's cleansed that all.
Speaker 2:But now why has he left you here? You know, if it was just about you getting saved, then you'd be gone, right. No, he left you here because he has stuff for you to do, and Ephesians 2.10 says that right that we would do were his workmanship, his work of art, that we would do those works that he has prepared in advance for us to walk in. So when we think of what next, it's like okay, lord, what is that next work that you've prepared, the divine setup, I don't have to really stress about it, let me walk in it. And so I think that if you're not looking at what next, you're becoming stagnant. Running water is a great example.
Speaker 4:So Kirk a flip side of that, and this is like my own sort of confession of areas that I need to develop in. I am so hyper focused on moving forward on things that I absolutely will sometimes epically fail to celebrate the wins that a ministry team has achieved or the progress that's been made, because I'm just constantly looking forward all the time and I think there's kind of like this both, and you know, I have to be reminded, I need to remind myself, but I also need to count on other people to remind me. Hey, let's celebrate. Let's celebrate the wonderful things God has done, you know, over the last six months, over the last year, right Even this current month, like be more present and not sacrifice being future focused, but also be a little bit more present focused as well. Any thoughts on that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, that's good. I have a good example. I think I have a good example. I had written this Christmas program for the large church. We had about 1,800 people show up to it more than they've ever had and it was a lot of work. And afterwards the senior pastor comes up and he goes well, that was good, but let's take it to the next level next year. And I remember sitting there going okay, so it wasn't good. And so that became a joke actually among the. You know, yeah, and so that became a joke actually among the.
Speaker 2:The assistant pastors to him was always well, he, let's take it to the next level. We'd have big events. I mean, we did a mud bog. We did a mud bog fundraiser, made 40 grand and had 4 000 people show up to it. And that was the comment. After all, this day of work and it's really not just the day of work, right was okay. Well, next year, let's take it to the next level.
Speaker 2:And I think that to your point, jack, is that, yeah, work, and it's really not just the day of work, right, it was okay. Well, next year, let's take it to the next level. And I think that to your point, jack, is. I think it's important because here's the challenge you do something and a lot of times you're like, oh great, it's over and you leave it right, and there's a moment of debrief. That's really important what went well, what can we do better next time. But I think in that debrief you pause for a little bit and say, man, let's just celebrate what happened here and look for the things that maybe you wouldn't look for.
Speaker 2:So, like for VBS out in Idaho, when I was there, we changed it to Bible camp because nobody wants to go to school during vacation. But you know, the big win for me over the years was, as we continue to build it was our last year there we had almost as many adult volunteers as we did kids who attended it, and to me that was the win because and I said that to him isn't this great? Look, look at what, what we get to do together and the fellowship that we had together, and that's the win. You could go well, man, you know we had this many kids and we also had this many adults make great.
Speaker 2:We were like a one to one and a half ratio, I mean adult to kid, and and so I'm like that is a big win and and so I think, pausing and being appropriate in your pause uh, you know, and Jack, you would have to decide that for you Um, and maybe Tim can help you with that it's like, hey, can we just wait a couple of days before we look at the next thing, you know, because you don't want to just set and go. Oh, that was great. You know, we had like I've had yeah, I agree, I've had like 10 baptisms.
Speaker 4:I don't think I could be capable of doing that.
Speaker 2:But I think intentionality right. It sounds like you have to be intentional to go wait. Let me and I would even say this is me personally sometimes write those wins and talk to people about those wins, so that you do intentionally take the time, because I think you're wired similarly to probably all of us on this podcast is okay that's great. Now the next thing.
Speaker 4:What's next?
Speaker 3:Next level. Our brains are so unique and fascinating. Unfortunately, our brains are broken and one of the products of sin is we fly like the salmon of Capistrana to negativity, you know, and then we just immerse ourselves in it. And I'm speaking from experience. This last Easter we had our first Easter in our gym and one of the services this isn't to throw out, it was absolutely packed. I don't even't to throw out, it was absolutely packed. I don't even need to throw out the number Absolutely packed.
Speaker 3:Team did so much work to make it so special. There were people coming out and said that was unbelievable. Just ah, da, da, da, da. One leader comes out and said well, I could hardly stay in. That music was way too loud. And two people behind me they walked out because they just couldn't do it anymore. They were like in their eighties or whatever you know. They just couldn't handle it.
Speaker 3:Like 99% of the comments were very, very positive best worship experience in. They could possibly imagine the transformation of the gym, blah, blah, blah. But guess where my brain goes? I can't believe those two people. They, they were like you're always going to have that.
Speaker 3:If you're risking anything, leader, there's always going to be the potential that you're not going to please everybody. So why are we even doing that? And I got to say one other thing why are we even looking at? This is why I didn't even drop the number of people why are you even looking at other churches or other? And it's so, so toxic to the human brain. Social media today you can see oh why can't we do this? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah that you can get a culture of negativity where you disrespect the people on the ground that are working very, very hard. And you're always looking at at the next. And I had to fight against it, jack. You're fighting against it and just celebrate and sit in the celebration longer than you normally, than you normally think you should, especially if that's your tendency always looking at what's next, jack.
Speaker 4:One of the traps that that can cause, and I try to combat this too. I do believe in our contemporary context people want a high energy kind of boomier kind of experience and that's what people think of as a great experience. But you're going to have like 2% that are very vocal about how they don't like that, and if you end up mixing to that or modifying everything to accommodate that 2%, now you've kind of like neglected the 98% that was really appreciating the higher energy kind of experience. And so we have to kind of really and it requires a lot of discipline and grit to kind of think through that and to try and kind of hold those comments that way.
Speaker 3:It's sad, it's sad because I don't know that we create the feedback loops for people to give positive comments.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Like the net promoter score. We're going to look at it, but how? How prone are we to look at the negative comments long before we look at all the comments about?
Speaker 4:what they like, immediately, zoom in on it.
Speaker 3:We immediately hyper-focus on it. So I think we need to create better feedback loops for people, because people are not going to come out and tell you all the time that was spectacular. You know you should keep doing this, the level of volume or whatever the organ or the like. They're just not going to do it unless you seek it out. So the net promoter score is very, very helpful toward that rhythm as we land this plan and transition Kirk. Final comments on healthy culture and really emphasizing a celebration in your community.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I think that you tap on something that is part of what I do is that, first of all, pastors and leaders typically are extremely insecure people, and so you know, as much as outgoing as we can be, as connected as we can be with people, we want people to like us, and so that 2% you know that, we know, and you said it, you said it so well. We know that we're not going to please everybody, but yet, for some reason, we still try to it. So well, tim, we know that we're not going to please everybody, but yet, for some reason, we still try to, and so I think that what's important when we talk about celebration is one of the things that the tools that I give pastors and church leadership is a simple assessment tool. I encourage pastors to do it on a weekly basis, to go okay, how and I asked this at the end of almost all my podcasts is, how did someone make you smile in the last two weeks?
Speaker 2:Because I think sometimes we again, we perseverate on that negative instead of go wait a second. That's not the real picture. It's not the real picture of everybody. And we could go on about music and stuff, because I dealt with that a lot being in a contemporary context and cranking it up. Man, if you get clarity, you can run 98 deci decibels and it's beautiful thing if it's clear anyway.
Speaker 1:So that's a different.
Speaker 2:But the whole point is is that I think that that, um, if you are intentional and you have people are intentional about saying, well, let's just celebrate one wet. Well, you know things are going to go wrong, I mean. So I did a baby baptism the other day and the baby blew out two christening or baptismal outfits.
Speaker 2:Right and praise the Lord, they brought a third right and I was just watching reruns of the Office, and when Jim and Pam get their baby, they're in a t-shirt because she blew it out too, and it's like what's the important thing is, they were there, they brought their child to the barn and we celebrated what God was doing. That's the big win. It's not all these other distractions that happen. And so I think that it's really important that we, as leaders, are intentional about pointing people to what's going well and calling it out, and I think, individually too, when we go to people and say you know, I really appreciate what you do here.
Speaker 2:There's a book I can't remember the guy's name, wayne something, a church guy in Hawaii years ago, and he would go into the children's ministry during parts of the service while they're doing music or whatnot, and there was a gal changing a diaper and he goes what are you doing? And she goes well, I'm changing the diaper for this. He goes no, you're not. You're providing a place where parents can feel that their child is safe, so that they can hear from the Lord, and so I think that you know just how do you frame it. How are you?
Speaker 2:Every work has purpose, every, everything that somebody does. And volunteers, let me tell you volunteers, they want to do things correctly, and so how do we, how do we reinforce that? How do we celebrate what they're doing? And so I think for pastors and leaders, it's really, really important that you could look for every service, thanking somebody for what they're doing and telling them hey, good job, I really appreciate that. You know there's hand out bullets and say I really appreciate you doing this. Um, this is really great. You're greeting people, so, um, I hope that kind of that's good, that's good.
Speaker 3:And a shout out to you mentioned insecure pastors and leaders and, and uh, I think that I think that can be true. Hopefully we're growing a tougher skin and a softer heart as we are in this for a while longer. But I'll tell you what, if you're, there's a lot of lay leaders that listen to this. A word of encouragement, specific word of encouragement to a pastor A pastor's call is very, very difficult. Consistent messages, et cetera. Consistent messages, et cetera. But a word of specific encouragement from a lay leader who's a trusted friend, partner, ally, that goes a long, long way. So I would encourage you, write letters, say specific words of encouragement, build one another up, do it more so and give honor where honor is due, both for volunteer serve team members, as well as those who are in paid leadership roles in the church.
Speaker 3:All right, let's pivot here a little bit. Kirk, go back. I mean, you've been at this thing now in the local church for a long time, almost three decades. Right, if you could go back and tell your you know new church worker one, two year out, self words of wisdom, what would you tell them? And even if you want to tell stories of what you didn't see coming, that now you see coming in a different way and you handle situations in the church differently. Now, kirk, let's tell that story.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I think that I'll answer a couple of the questions here. You know you come into ministry and you know you just want to serve the Lord and you just think, oh, it's going to be so great to serve the Lord, it's going to be wonderful, everyone's going to love me and you lead with your heart. I mean, I like that tougher skin, softer hearts. You never want to lose that soft heart because it will get stepped on, and I think that that's why it's important that you have some tools in your bag to remember that.
Speaker 2:So I grew up in the church. So what's great is a lot of stuff in the church doesn't blindside me. I've seen a lot growing up and it still didn't deter me from ministry. So that's great. But I remember one time I just moved my family to New Mexico to take this music position of a large 2,000-person church and we were getting ready for Christmas and I gathered a bunch of people for a choir and this older lady stood up. She goes. Well, no one else is willing to say this, but I'm going to say this she goes. The Holy Spirit left when you arrived and so it got quiet in that room really fast.
Speaker 2:That's a strong accusation, she was, and so it got quiet in that room really fast. That's a strong accusation, and so, you know, I said well, no one is forcing you to be here, you know if that's how you feel, but I mean, how do you respond to that, right? And so I think that you have to go. Okay, there are some things in ministry that are going to happen, and so, if I were to look back, three words that I would tell myself is, first of all, relax, rest and rejoice. And when I say relax, it's not tied to your point, jack, we always go. What's next? What's next? I feel like we put this pressure on ourselves that we've got to do things, because the ministry hinges upon whether or not we do it correctly. And so I think that relax is the first thing. Relax in the Holy Spirit. It's the Holy Spirit's work. He's doing it. Not that I want to be a sloth and I want to, you know, but it's a long game. I think that there is a sense of urgency. Right, people are going to hell, and we want to reach them, and that's a real thing. But at the same time, I'm so thankful God is not dependent upon me to save others. He's the one that does the saving. And so I need to be faithful in my context and just enjoy it, relax, and so rest is important and just enjoy it. Relax and so rest is important.
Speaker 2:I'm still terrible at this. I teach this. I teach pastors about how to rest. I am terrible at it and, just being honest, I rarely. I'm not good at taking full days off and I, you know I was on vacation and studying, you know, my sermon every day and answering emails and all this stuff. But some of that's how I'm wired. We don't need to get into that. But I think that and then rejoice, because I think to what we've been talking about this dovetails really well is that I put that pressure on myself, I'm not relaxing, so therefore I'm not resting, because I feel like if I rest, then I'm feeling guilty that I'm not doing something and then I miss to rejoice in what God is actually doing, and so that is kind of my you know, and I would say that for any pastor is to relax, and then you know, tied with that is enjoy what you're doing.
Speaker 2:I remember leading music one Sunday and seeing who wasn't there. I'm standing up there strumming my guitar, singing a song praising Jesus, and I'm looking at who's not there. They haven't been here for two weeks. They call it their home church and I remember just being mad. I don't want to. Well, I'll say this. I was pissed off, can I say that? And I remember the Holy Spirit really worked with me. He goes. You know you were spending so much of your energy being upset with those who aren't here that you're missing out on ministering to those who are here. And so you know, just be in the moment and relax, trust the Lord for those other people Do your part. So I mean, I think that kind of answers your question. Yeah, it does.
Speaker 3:It does.
Speaker 4:Go ahead, jack. Well, it's interesting. You can do everything right and it may not work out because God has other plans. And you can do everything right and it may not work out because God has other plans. And you can do everything wrong and it may work out because God has other plans. And so that is like the overlaying truth of everything. And at the same time this is the Lutherans holding things in tension thing we're still called into ministry, to be zealous with ministry and to steward things really really well. Both things are true at the same time.
Speaker 4:I think it's really about, like, how do we see ourselves truly in that story? Right? Do we see ourselves as stewarding and depending on God, or do we see ourselves as, no, it's all on us, right, and I think that's where the imbalance, the imbalance can be Right. Right, and I think that's where the imbalance, the imbalance can be Right, and you might have an imbalance. That might be well, I'm not even going to exercise stewardship here because it's all God and so I'm not. I'm just going to sit back and do nothing, right, so, like I think you could be imbalanced in either direction on that. I think that's kind of my takeaway on that is that we do have these vocations. We are invited to join Jesus on his mission to steward resources and assets really well, to think hard about leading well in the ministry, and at the same time God's got his own plans that may or may not align with what we're doing, and we have to find a way, with humility, to submit ourselves to that and find peace and comfort and joy in it.
Speaker 3:Well, the only Go ahead, Kirk Go ahead.
Speaker 2:Sorry, tim, I think context is everything going back to mission and things like that, and I appreciate Tim not saying the number for the that we were in the gym, because I think the challenge is that we have different contexts all over the place. If I'm in a rural town of 7,000 that is 98% Mormon, can I really have the expectations to plant five churches in the next two years, or whatever that is? Or can I, do I really have the expectation to grow the church X amount and so we have to be really important. I remember going to I was in a small church at the time and I went to a worship conference and all, all the big dogs are there, right, they got paid musicians and they're, and I'm like how do I take that, how do I learn something from that and take it back to my context? Because I I'd be frustrated if I try to reproduce that. It's impossible.
Speaker 3:Um and so, yeah, I think, uh, that was some good words there hey, the only way I have found and the Spirit has kind of led me and continues to lead and shape me to not compare, not compete. Pastors love to compete. Oh, my goodness, I was just. I'm trying to keep from going down a track. I was with a whole host of pastors and there were lines in my the way I relate to humans that were crossed as these pastors just kind of ribbed it one another quite a bit. I love all of you guys, it's great, but it was a fascinating sociological experience with these alpha males in a room and the only way I've found to maintain joy in the moment is gratitude. Right now, right for this moment. So I'm grateful.
Speaker 3:There's, like I don't know, a couple dozen moms out here with all these little preschoolers running around our courtyard right now in preparation for Mother's Day on a Sunday Sunday. Like can we train our brains by the Spirit's power to be grateful for every person that shows up? Like no one's forcing people to show up, they're voluntarily getting ready, getting in their car or whatever and coming to church. So I don't care if it's 50 or 500 or whatever. I can't. I can't believe like you showed up today and because you showed up, god's going to show up and show off and he's going to meet you right where you're at.
Speaker 3:So do we have that kind of gratitude that flows from whatever? And this is theological right? What do I deserve? I don't deserve any of this. I don't deserve today. I don't deserve this leadership position. I don't deserve to have people honor me. I deserve hell and wrath and condemnation, judgment from God and from others, because I'm a poor, wretched, miserable sinner. So everything now in my new identity in Christ is gravy man. It's icing on the cake. I have won, I've arrived, because Christ says I'm enough just as I am right now. My identity is secure in him. And so like competing and comparing and living with this kind of like anxiousness, I don't really have any kind of appetite for that, because I'm a new creation in Christ. Now I do, because my sin nature continually attacks me. Oh, wretched man that I am. But I've been saved by Christ, the crucified and risen one you know. So that should lead us as pastors to have just a different posture, a more open, I would say playful, adventurous, curious posture that's filled with gratitude. Anything more to add on to that?
Speaker 2:Oh well, I mean, I think it goes back to really where we started. You know, a healthy organization, we're talking about a healthy church, it's worth of all individuals. Because you're saying that person that came, you know Jesus wants to meet them. And that humility of mind, because I think sometimes if we were honest and if you hit, because I think sometimes if we were honest and if you hit on something very important, if we're honest, um, we struggle with imposter syndrome, um, because if people really knew, um, they wouldn't listen to me. I mean, right, that's what you think, um, but I think there's a healthy balance to go. Lord, this is your work. Because, um, I know, like I always tell people why am I a pastor? Because I'm so weak.
Speaker 2:God had to put me into the church so that I would stay, you know, on focus, because otherwise, you know, I'd probably be in jail or dead. But that's a whole different conversation. But I think that it's important for us to go. You know, man, christ died for every single person that walks in our doors or onto our property and I think that goes out into the community Everywhere I go. Christ died for that person.
Speaker 2:And it's hard because sometimes there's people that you're like I know Christ died for you, but I don't want to mess with you, I don't want to talk to you, right, but I think having that deep understanding of your identity in Christ and then knowing the heart of Christ, which is that none should perish but all should repent and receive eternal life, I mean that is the heart of God, and if I can say, lord, give me that heart for others, I think that that helps. And then be mindful that he actually reached down to the depths to save me and I don't deserve it and I don't deserve it Absolutely. I don't deserve it. I mean you said it, tim. I mean I sometimes stand up in the public and go why? It's crazy.
Speaker 2:This has been a great experience being here so far in El Paso, and it was great in Idaho too. I love the church group right there too, and it was growing. But I sit there and go. Lord, it's got to be, it's your work, because I know me and I would screw it up. You know I'm good at screwing things up. So thank you, lord, for covering.
Speaker 3:Hey, last question I know I sent you a whole bunch more, but this has been super fun. This has been so such a culturally helpful conversation and for a lot of leaders you're like, well, this sounds simple Living. What we're talking about is not is not simple. It's going to require the Holy Spirit and the body of Christ working well together. So what are the top three values needed for pastors, staff and members in congregations to relate well to one another? What are those top?
Speaker 2:values for you, kirk, as you lead in the church. It's got to sound similar to what I said, from what I can tell myself, but I reversed them a little bit. I said, first of all, rest. Rest in the finished work of Christ. If people can rest in the finished work of Christ and who they are in Jesus Christ, I think that that is, and it's been a big journey for me.
Speaker 2:Went to Israel in 2011, and I realized that those who were without Christ but were Israelites were so sure in their identity of being God's people. And here I was. I was someone who had the Holy Spirit dwelling in me, I received the forgiveness of Christ and I still was struggling with who I was. And so I think, resting in the finished work of Christ I mean, we're told in Hebrews to strive to enter that rest right. And so I think, first and foremost, if we can help one another, rest in the finished work of Christ and then, from that, I think, we rejoice in what God is doing in our lives personally, in the lives of others, in the hope that we have. Christ is risen. He is risen.
Speaker 2:Indeed, alleluia should not be just during this Eastertide season, right, this should be the rhythm of the Christian. And then, lastly, relax. Let's just enjoy. Let's relax and enjoy one another, enjoy what God is doing. And I think Psalm chapter 5 says In the morning I make my petitions to you, and then one translation says and I wait in expectation. And I think if we relax and watch for what the Lord is doing, I think that we can really enjoy together and celebrate together and share stories together. You know, church is easily a transactional event and it needs to be transformational, and I think that when we come in we just clock in and clock out. That's not really the organization that we're looking for in the church. We're looking for people to gather together, to share life together, to enjoy Jesus together, because we know, we know how it all ends and so we get that blessed hope of the resurrection and eternal life with him. And so I just think that we should just rest, rejoice and relax Love it Jack, closing comment.
Speaker 4:Sabbath. I think that's really what it boils down to. I was just looking at a survey we took as a team and we have some work to do to really be intentional with our Sabbath work, and that's on top of already being intentional to some degree. But I think a lot more needs to be done, and I think what also stood out to me is that seems to be the norm for churches, that all church workers are struggling in their own context to experience Sabbath for themselves. They've given so much of themselves for the sake of other people that they've not given themselves permission to Sabbath themselves, and so I think that's probably maybe one way to approach this is to rest in God's provision and in the identity that he gives you.
Speaker 3:And my big takeaway. I don't know why this is, but respect and honor outdo one another in showing honor, and it goes both ways for those that are in leadership positions and those that are sacrificially serving on our serve teams and leading different groups. And we're all just trying right. And I think God looks at us, his disposition, it's like the little toddler trying to find our way through, and he's like oh, that's sweet and you're doing good, son, daughter, you're growing up. But the disposition of the father isn't dependent upon our growth, it's dependent upon his son, and he's well-pleased with his son. The father is, and obviously therefore, by faith, he's well-pleased with us, and so I love it. We can rest, rejoice and relax in the presence, the presence of God. So good, kirk, if people want to connect with you, how can they do so?
Speaker 2:Yeah, sure, so you can. Kirk at PPMHIorg, that's Pastors Positive Mental Health Institute. You just look that up online and find it there. Online is also my cell phone number, but it's area code 530-306-0712. I'd love to help your organization out and anyway I can help build up pastors and church leaders so we can build one another up in love. That's just what I love to do.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's so good. I'm sure this is coming out in the summer. Pastor leader, while I'm on sabbatical, I hope you're resting well In the rhythm of the church here. The season of Pentecost, that's a time we got a whole host of proclaimers that get to bring God's word in various settings. You know, in our church, Praise God for that, and that allows those who are kind of in the trenches which hello all three of us. Right, we need those seasons of Sabbath, extended Sabbath, rest, Praise, be to God, it's a good day. Go make it a great day. This is lead time. You are loved by Jesus. Please like, subscribe, comment. I won't be looking at any of these comments because I'm away. Please comment, but I don't think there's anything controversial that we even talked about. This is just good stuff. Let's grow in our health as leaders and in the entire movement which is the local church, bringing love and light out into a dark and dying world. Jesus loves you so very, very much. Kirk, Jack. What a joy. Good job, guys, Peace. God bless you.
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