Lead Time
Lead Time
The LCMS Political Engine: Who Really Gets a Voice?
If you care about the future of the LCMS, you won’t want to miss this one.
🔔 Save Lead Time to your library for real talk about leading in the LCMS today. Your perspective matters, let's have discussion that honors Christ!
As the LCMS heads into another round of district and national conventions, big questions loom: Who actually holds influence in shaping our Synod’s future? Pastor Tim Ahlman sits down with Emily Pacyga and Josh Salzberg for a behind-the-scenes look at overtures, resolutions, and the politics of convention floor committees.
From lay delegate engagement to the missing voices of commissioned ministers, from “omnibus” rejections to open hearings, this candid conversation wrestles with participation, representation, and whether the LCMS truly welcomes diverse perspectives.
Whether you’re a seasoned delegate, a curious layperson, or someone who’s never heard the word “overture” before, this episode pulls back the curtain on how decisions are made—and how YOU can have a seat at the table.
📌 Topics include:
Why many LCMS members don’t understand (or use) their full voting power
How overtures get killed in “omnibus” before ever being discussed
The politics of floor committees and representation
Ideas for giving commissioned ministers a real voice
Building coalitions for meaningful change in the LCMS
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This is Lead Time.
Speaker 2:Welcome to Lead Time Podcast Tim Allman. Here, jack Calberg has the day off. Today we're talking about we're heading into convention season in the LCMS. We've got district conferences, conventions that are taking place, and then next summer we will be gathering together in July in Phoenix, arizona. Wow, it's going to be hot for the 2026 LCMS convention, and so today we're going to be talking about overtures, resolutions and really to get behind the scenes of what that process looks like.
Speaker 2:And so today my conversation partners are Josh Salzberg and Emily Pasiga, and let me tell you first about Josh. He's a screenwriter and editor living in LA. Born and raised in Missouri. Josh is a lifelong LCMS Lutheran graduate of Lutheran schools, current volunteer executive director at First Lutheran of Culver City and Palms out in LA so we're in the same district in 2020. He co-founded Lutherans for Racial Justice LRJ, a grassroots coalition committed to fostering multi-ethnic church and school cultures as they pursue equity, justice and healing in the LCMS. In Josh's free time, he explores the city with his kids and his spouse, sarah. How many kids do you have? Two?
Speaker 3:kids nine and seven. Nine and seven, oh, that's so good.
Speaker 2:Those are precious years, man, and his spouse so good.
Speaker 2:His spouse, sarah, is a Hebrew scripture and Old Testament teacher at Orange Lutheran High School. Go Orange, love that, love that faith community there. Emily, let me tell you about her. Emily Fusiga is the executive director at Tabor Church in Chicago. She went to the convention. This is going to shape some of our conversation.
Speaker 2:She was just saying she went to the LCMS convention about 10 years ago. I was at the same one and there were, as she shares, men who were lobbying to condemn at the time just to put a timestamp on that, to condemn Concordia, portland. And she was like what's going on with the church body that has all these condemning things toward one another? We may have some room for growth. She is a pastor's daughter in the LCMS and I can't wait for you to hear a little bit more of her story. So maybe we just start there. Emily, tell me the story of kind of why would you, as a pastor's daughter, get engaged in the LCMS as it relates toward the political engine which is the LCMS? Could you tell that story, emily? Thanks for being with me today.
Speaker 4:I would love to Thanks for having me Well as a pastor's child, which I think most of us want to stay as far away from the church as humanly possible, and I literally said I would never work for a church, never be involved in the church in the way, seeing all the good, bad and the in-between. But I know that God called me to be here and I heard him say you do it while praying. So I'm like okay, god, and when you feel that move, like you had said, when I was at convention about a decade ago, it was when things were going wild at Portland and I was amazed to hear the language, the negative language, coming out of our church body. And from that point on I really made it a point to continue to be involved, continue to encourage other people to be involved. I've educated Laity over the years on how to do all of this and just to continue to showcase what our church is for versus constantly what it's against.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Thank you, and we'll get into the details here. Josh, why is this a big topic for you?
Speaker 3:Well, meanwhile, god specifically told me to get out of the LC, to not get involved with this, but my wife's a Lutheran school teacher and our kids need the insurance. So here I'm kidding, I'm joking. I love it.
Speaker 3:I do have a kid homesick today, though, so we appreciate the great health insurance that they have through their Lutheran school. Yeah, I'm a, you know, as you said, lifelong Lutheran. I feel like I got the best of whatever the LCMS has to offer in terms of went to Lutheran schools, had the best experience, had people that from teachers to leaders in the LCMS because I was in St Louis, you know encouraged me both as a as a student, as a church volunteer and then also as a filmmaker. That's how I got into filmmaking. I would not have the career I have if people from top down in the LCMS hadn't encouraged me, supported me, gave me opportunities.
Speaker 3:So for me, this is all about I want everybody to experience the best of what the LCMS can be, and I know that's not the case for everybody and we're all responsible for that. I think that's my big headline. As we get into the conversation today, we're going to be like saying some, like you know, talk about the challenges or whatever. For me, these critiques just aren't just about people in leadership. It's about Emily and I, who are volunteer executive directors, and trying to navigate this as well. It's our responsibility.
Speaker 3:I get paid a little bit. Oh, wait a second. Now we need to talk about this.
Speaker 4:Okay, okay. Well, that's for offline.
Speaker 3:Well, that's for offline. We'll talk more about that, but anyways, yeah, my big headline is to encourage people to get involved, because this is your church, this is our church. Uh, and if you've got, uh an issue, if you want to see something changed, if you want to see it, uh, you know, your churches, your schools reach more people. Uh, you know, get involved.
Speaker 2:So what's been your experience at both district and synod conventions? Which ones have you been at? I've been at the last three national conventions, so tell a little bit of that story, josh.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely. So. I'll be the fresh-faced newbie to all of this world. The last national convention was my first one. I had not been to district convention before. I'm a lay delegate at our district convention here in the Pacific Southwest this year, so I will be there for that, so that'll be my first one there.
Speaker 3:But really I got involved because, as a part of Lutherans for Racial Justice, there was a group that had created a great overture to encourage a study around multi-ethnic ministry ethnic ministry and the spoiler alert here is that it ended up passing. It's the largest multi-ethnic ministry study to be conducted in the LCMS ever, which is great, and we can talk more about that as we get into it. But that process was basically hearing about how that had passed in a district, how this overture had been written, and then figuring out okay, cool, how can we now get regular people in the LCMS to hear about this stuff? Because I'm sure, as you guys have experienced you know, there's no, there's no easy way to get the word out about how this process works, how to get involved, what overtures are going on. I'm sorry I'm saying the word overture. Three years ago I don't think I knew what that meant. Should we explain?
Speaker 2:overture. Why don't we do that? Let's start with what in the world is an overture, Josh, and then we'll go to Emily.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely Well, emily may have a better technical description for me, but I mean, in short, it's a formal proposal for either a district convention or a synod convention that is going to guide synod policies for either theology, for practice, for administration. So this is everything from how voting takes place in at convention, you know, changing bylaws, amending bylaws, to theological statements, to research yeah, it can kind of be anything. And the overture is a proposal that's like a. You know, there's whereas kind of the setup. Here's the basis for what we're about to call for, you know, whereas we believe this or this is true, and then be it resolved.
Speaker 3:Here are the action items, and it's a good thing to keep in mind, because sometimes it's easy to get caught up in all the wording of everything, but in the end there's a number of action items, yeah, yeah. And so the last thing on it is just as the overtures then go through this process, which we'll get more into, there's submitting, there's review, there's floor committees, there's discussion, there's voting. But you know, once it's brought to the floor, it's a resolution and if it gets approved, now that is, you know, added into either to the bylaws or into, you know, the calls for it's an official call for a study or whatever it might be, yeah.
Speaker 2:Anything to add there, Emily? No.
Speaker 4:It's very it's a very confusing process to begin. Josh and I have led a couple of Zooms on trying to teach people about it and there are a lot of congregations said we have a convention, we can go and I was like, yeah, you can go. Congregation said we have a convention, we can go, and I was like, yeah, you can go. You got to, you got to see if you can be volunteered to go, and there's, and then it gets more complicated with. Every church is different in how their bylaws and how they vote people in to even go to convention and how they are able to submit overtures.
Speaker 2:You're going to say something.
Speaker 3:Well, just again the encouragement and we'll get into specifics of how it works. But, aside from all the details, like if you are a lay person as we're talking about this stuff you know and want to get involved, like the encouragement is cool, talk to your pastor. Figure out who the circuit circuits are in your, who the congregations are in your circuit, that's your kind of local network of LCMS churches. Figure out how maybe you could be, you know, a lay delegate If you're a pastor. I know pastors are familiar with the process and don't want to get involved. But it's like this is the way, you know, change happens and that was my big. We were talking about my experience at convention.
Speaker 3:My big takeaway was look, it was wild. You know, it's in some ways depressing because it's bureaucracy and who wants to like go through. It's a tedious process and all of that, and sometimes the things you're hoping for don't get passed and all these different things. I'm up till 2 am like rewriting, you know, overtures and what am I going to say on the floor and all of those things. But what I took away from it was well, you know, if we could get 50 people here, some of these votes would have changed, and so for me that's my big thing is, so many people have great ideas, want to give input, and so if you're a lay delegate, go for it. If you're a pastor, encourage lay people, and if you're a church worker, you don't get a vote. I'm mostly kidding around, having fun. You really don't get a vote, but you can still participate and that's something we can talk about too.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So, what's working in the process, what could use some improvement? I'll say, from my perspective, what could use some improvement is higher participation in our lay leaders. Understanding the process, like, your voice at the district and at the national level carries the same weight as the pastor's voice and we need to hear from you what's working, what's not, what else would you add to that? What's working in the overture process? Because I would love to see, I would love to see more overtures coming from lay leaders, lay men and women who are letting their voice be heard about what's working or not working in the synod, in our processes, in our life together as the church. Anything more to say there, josh, and then we'll go to Emily.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely. I mean real quick. You mentioned, you know, getting more lay people involved. This is my superpower. I have no.
Speaker 3:My expertise for whatever that is I don't have any has really only come, though, from talking to so many congregations over the past five years through Lutheran racial justice, so many Lutheran school administrators, teachers, whatever. It's just been a part of the thing. So I've kind of got a survey now going of what the national SMS like, and my superpower is that I am not other than my tie to you know my kids have health insurance through my, my wife's job. Tie to you know my kids have health insurance through my wife's job. Other than that, you know, I'm not bound by a salary, you know, or the same oversight that a rostered church worker is, and so I guess that's an encouragement to lay people of I think a lot of us are have maybe a fresh perspective because we're not bound by the same kind of thinking that you know. When you're a pastor or roster church worker, you have to kind of think you have more of the system in your mind. I got off track of your question.
Speaker 2:Your question was it's OK With the overture process. What's working. What could use more improvement? Emily, and then we'll come back. Josh, it's good man, perfect Love that.
Speaker 4:Josh is throwing me off too. I think the um, the issue with the overture, is that people just don't know they exist. They don't know how to do it. It's very overwhelming, um and to to Josh's point, to encourage people to know that they have the exact same voice and the exact same vote. I mean, we were formed as a congregations up synod, so the power is not within the few people that can be there and participate, and there's so many churches that don't even participate and don't even go to their district conventions, and I'd love to see that change and see every congregation with a voice. But there's just there's. Yeah, it's just getting people involved, empowering them. But the writing of the overture process, I think, needs some massive improvement so that people can feel like they can do it themselves too.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and, and there's a lot of you know, knowing that this is a lesson I learned from convention, like respecting understanding the bylaws and like, I think, as a little bit of a rebel, I want to fight about that and be like I don't care about bylaws. But that's how I mean. It's the same way with government. It's like you got to know what's on the books in order to to get the work done. So that's part of the challenge is just, yeah, knowing, knowing the rules, knowing the bylaws, knowing the process.
Speaker 3:I think what does work and we're kind of speaking to this already is your voice is heard, you know, especially when there's numbers and it's not that as difficult as it might sound, but that's really where I think the secret is is getting people out in numbers, getting congregations out in numbers, and this is something that worked about the multi-ethnic ministry study, which is the only reason I'm referencing it so much is that I think there was something like a dozen congregations, you know, in addition to some circuits and districts, that submitted the overture to Senate. So when the handbook comes out where they print the overtures that have been submitted, you're seeing, oh, this isn't just you know, josh, you know, sending in some random overture. There's a big call for this and a big movement, and to me that's what really does work about it. The challenges you know. I already mentioned rostered workers don't have a vote. Why that's a meaning outside of pastors.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so you know what you think of as church workers, your DCEs, your Lutheran school teachers, teachers.
Speaker 3:I understand the challenges around that in terms of you know the argument is that well, if we give church workers a vote, then that's going to take away from the lay delegate vote. That's kind of usually the conversation that happens there and for me it's still a problem. We got to figure out how to solve because teachers especially with my spouse being a teacher the stuff that gets decided in convention, this is what teachers are dealing with every day, because any question that you might get from that one difficult person in your congregation she's got three kids asking every day or whatever policy issue you might be thinking about, it's happening at school every day. And I think we're really missing out on a huge voice from teachers, dces, et cetera, that we really need to be a part of this process, not just as advisory delegates which they can be and speak at the mic and those kinds of things but really to be able to weigh in because on the back end, they're the ones that have to carry out the decisions that are made.
Speaker 2:Well, we've been. This is the second podcast that's brought this episode up, this topic up. So what are some ideas do you think to balance out the lay and the commission minister voice? Do you have any like overture recommendations that folks are even writing right now? Could get their heads wrapped around, josh Emily.
Speaker 4:We've all been tabled.
Speaker 3:Well, emily in the northern Illinois districtled. Well gone to Omnibus. Well, Emily in the Northern Illinois district, that is where that went there. There's been other districts. I don't know have they made it through any? There's a couple overtures.
Speaker 4:It's a synodical bylaw issue so it needs to be rewritten, to change the bylaws, not just say we want this to happen, but it has to. The part of the resolutions have to be to change bylaws and from what I hear it's a lot more complicated. But I have found that Control-F or Command-F, depending on what computer you're on, to go through bylaws of the Synod, to find keywords, to go backwards to do research to say why can't this go through every time? And I know this just happened in the Southeast District too over last weekend. It was sent to Omnibus also because of the way it was worded.
Speaker 3:And I might need your help in reminding me here, but the couple proposals that have been put forward in this round have been about adding in a lay delegate vote was one option. Is that correct? Yeah, to have two lay delegate votes in addition to a pastoral delegate vote, in addition to the added rostered church worker vote. Yeah, to create a balance there. I think that's a great option. Can you remind me what the other one was? I should know this.
Speaker 4:It was exchanging the pastoral vote for any called worker, so it was a DCE. It was keeping the same number, it was keeping two votes per congregation but changing the pastoral to it could be a DCE or a deaconess or another minister yeah.
Speaker 3:Either way, I think it's a great option. And look, something else that's part of this is the reality is, most statistically, most of our teachers are women and I do think we're missing a lot of yes, a woman as a lay delegate can go, but I still think we're missing a lot of those voices in there, you know, especially when we roll out teachers.
Speaker 2:Yep. So Emily talk about the process of writing an overture. Do we have templates that are available, Because I think the process with all of the whereas is and everything can feel so kind of overwhelming If someone has another topic that they'd like to bring up, regardless of commission. Minister, there are many other, many other topics Do you have in? Is there kind of a clearinghouse of where people can see some other templates of overtures if they've got some ideas heading into district and Senate convention?
Speaker 4:District. Each district has a template. Senate has a template. None of them are terribly. I mean, they're user friendly in the way that they say this is the way it should look. You need to have whereas comma. You need to have resolved comma. You need to use the after a semicolon, all of that. But I've seen overtures that are three lines long. I've seen overtures that are three pages long. So it bless you. It really depends on what you're trying to get across. There should always be biblical backing in it. If you can reference the Bible, reference Jesus, that's a plus. The Bible reference Jesus, that's a plus. They love those. So there are templates.
Speaker 3:How you go about writing. It really depends on the author. I think I'll throw out there, I think, the prior approval process overture I know you've talked about on this podcast, so I hope I'm not rehashing too much. I think that's a great template, just in terms of like, if you want to see a well, regardless of if you agree with it or not or whatever, although I think everybody should look at it and push it forward. In my fired up, I think it's easy to just like hit the keyboard and start typing away and that prior approval process one is just. It's worded perfectly. The theology is great. The whole logic is laid out really well, I think.
Speaker 2:So let's talk about district to synod, what that process looks like. You've got a whole bunch of overtures that go to a district and then a lot of them get moved on. If they get voted on in the affirmative, they get moved on toward a respective floor committee who's going to be looking at all hosts of overtures that have come in, some from individuals, some from congregations, some from circuits, many from districts, from districts, right? I mean those are kind of the four main overture authorship groups, right, that end up sending it, sending it on. And then you mentioned a word that some people are probably unfamiliar with Emily omnibus. What does omnibus mean? As a floor committee gets all of these respective overtures Right, because there's a lot of things that people care about Prior approval, commission, minister formation, all of that right, and there's going to be a lot of overtures coming from our 35 districts around those topics. So what does omnibus mean? And am I clarify, in your perspective, if I miss anything regarding what happens from district to Senate?
Speaker 4:Well, you'll have to clarify for me too if I'm missing anything. If it is omnibus, there are three different reasons, but I cannot think of the third one. One is it's been discussed before, one is it's against our bylaws or constitution, and then it goes to the secretary. And the other one, I think, is we just don't like it, something like that, we don't want to discuss this. So omnibus just means that the floor committee is not going to take a look at it. So you have the opportunity in the beginning of convention to pull overtures or resolutions out of omnibus.
Speaker 4:My last I like Josh, my national convention was the. My first one was the last one, two, two years ago now, and the very first thing out of Omnibus was tried to pull out women's suffrage. And I'm like this has been discussed. We're not pulling out women's suffrage. So there are things that they say have been discussed, things that we're not going to discuss. But people still have an opportunity. Delegates still have an opportunity to pull it out of Omnibus on the convention floor when things go to Omnibus. There's a lot of things that go to Omnibus that have just been discussed before. Like in our district, the same overture is submitted every single time that has to do with end of life stuff and they're like. We've already discussed this, we have an answer for this, we go to the Constitution. So what was the rest of your question?
Speaker 2:Oh, that's good, Josh, anything to add? Thank you, emily, that was excellent.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and some of that stuff is like, you know, we're kind of like sometimes making jokes or being cynical about the process, but some of it is like because all of this, if you're a lay delegate, you're just some person trying to figure out this process is maybe your first or second convention, you know whatever it is. So you is maybe your first or second convention, you know whatever it is, so you're not remembering that 20 years ago this was passed. So there is some practicality of like, yeah, that's what the committees are here for, to like know what's been discussed before what's been decided, those kind of things.
Speaker 2:so, uh, one of the major engines, I guess, for how national, national um floor committees get set is the president of synod, and I'm sure it's in consult with the Presidium and others get to choose who they invite onto those floor committees. And that is no insignificant thing, right that that you get to shape. You may know somebody for a case in point, like I don't talk about it anymore, but like I was not invited onto any floor committee for for I was actually on nominations about six years ago I was on a floor committee and that was a very simple assignment, um, and so I I was not subsequently invited onto a pastoral formation committee or anything or anything like that, because they know I have, I have strong opinions. One of my, one of my, I think, struggles is do we have appropriate synod wide representation from districts, men and women, pastor and and commission minister on some of these floor committees and I would say generally on, especially on a number of the more heated conversations, I don't know that there's been adequate representation across the Senate and I think that leads to some some frustration on who are on those respective floor committees, because one voice in a room could say I don't know that we fully discussed X issue. So I think we should refrain at this point from pulling this overture and moving it directly into omnibus.
Speaker 2:Maybe there's new information that we need today, but I don't know. I don't know that dissent has been welcomed or not. Dissent, just difference of opinion on some of the more controversial issues today in floor committee. So who gets to put the leader onto a floor committee at the national level? That's a lot of that's cast the die in the direction that a number of the overtures and then resolutions are going to go. Josh, anything more to say there?
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I want to talk a bit about the other aspect of floor committee, which is the opportunity to speak to the floor committees, which is part of the process. But to your point, yes, I mean that's one of the main challenges is how floor committees are assigned and there's going to be, you know, a bias there. I think that's, in general, one of the challenges to keep in mind with this whole thing is we're encouraging you to get involved, but also the reality is there's a bias towards the status quo and that's just the reality of, like any kind of big ship, like this big institution that you're trying to change, always a balance bias for the status quo. But I think that's one of the biggest challenges, because a floor committee, yeah, can throw out anything that they don't want to talk about, and then it can kind of be a little more, like you're saying, give less of a portrait of the full, full Senate as it's handpicked. So I'm with you there To be charitable.
Speaker 2:I don't know what the answer is to that. I don't know how meaning, I don't know how broad of a group should be involved to choose a floor committee. How complex would that actually be? I mean so I'm not. This is nothing against President Harrison or any president. I mean, the system is what the system is and it just produces over time what has been produced. And unfortunately, courage, I think, would be to say I'll have someone who has a slight difference of opinion in that room to make sure representation, even if some others would maybe bristle at that appointment, josh, but I'm not the one that understands. I'm not in that room to make those decisions, so I'm commenting from an outsider's perspective, but I pray for more openness to include all voices in Senate, josh.
Speaker 3:Yeah well, I'm sorry, emily, you can jump in here too, but I guess to put the onus back on us, because that's all we can control, right, is that I think we need to acknowledge this is all politics. You know, we have to say this is politics, it's how it works. If you want to get change in any institution, from your local school, you know, up to this level, up to government, whatever it is, it's, it's all politics. And so you got to make winning arguments and you got to build coalitions, and so the way to get, you know, to the point where floor committees, um, you know, there is, uh, more fullness of the church body represented. Uh, it means we got to participate and put the pressure on for that to happen. Um, so, again, you can, you can speak to, you know, you have this opportunity to speak to floor committees.
Speaker 3:Uh, emily and I I think that's where we forged a little bit of our uh, uh, friendship was in that process, cause we had come prepared reading some of the overtures and I I didn't realize how prepared I need to be, because you then get in the room with this opportunity to speak and we're flipping through and we're going. Well, here's they're saying something about public education here and we care about. I've got my kids are in Lutheran school we still care about public education and that impacts a big part of our congregation, and so now we're going up and speaking about you know about that. And then now we're switching to a totally new topic. Now we're talking about you know how congregations, you know, provide votes or whatever, and so it's a good opportunity, but it takes. You know, provide votes or whatever, and so it's a good opportunity, but it takes. You know. It's a great opportunity to just share your voice in this way, and that's the only way we can put the pressure on, I think, to make some changes.
Speaker 4:Clarify what you're talking about. Is that you're talking about open hearings? That is?
Speaker 3:free Sorry.
Speaker 4:No, no. So I just want to say before national convention and before your district convention there are open hearings. Some districts make it very easy to attend open hearings. Some districts make it very hard to attend open hearings. But that's the only time that you have to speak to the group before it hits the floor. So in my district, in the NID district, it was at 8 am on a Saturday before an hour, away from all of us. So a group of us went and were able to get some wording change that we thought was very not shining our best light, as the LCMS and the committee was very understanding of it. They changed some of it and then the wording was different when we showed up to convention. So, getting getting involved in open hearing and anybody can go to an open hearing, you do not need said.
Speaker 3:on a Saturday, right for your district in the southeastern district, they started doing Zoom floor committee hearings and so there's a little more access there. Apparently, a lot of people attended those floor committees, so I think that's. That's one of the challenges too is, you know, not always easy to have. The time Schedules tend to be no offense, to tend to be built around a pastor schedule, not a normal work life schedule.
Speaker 2:So yeah, sorry, Sorry I don't know what else to say. So what are your last question here? And then we'll end with some, some good stuff. If there's one main, I guess, systemic change that you would love to see to the, at least an openness to see in the process, what would that? What would that be? From district to and it's complex from district to national, what would that be? And then I got, and then I got one more, one more kind of focused question along those lines. So one, one systemic change that would, and it could be that we want to see more lay leaders involved at every aspect of it. That would be mine. Would you add anything to that, josh?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean I think we kind of covered it. But the things we can control in the immediate future is more lay leaders involved. I know it's not easy but, yeah, get involved with overtures at your circuit level, get to conventions or just reach out and we can talk about it. The things we can't necessarily have direct control over in the immediate future is the roster church worker vote. I think that would make the biggest difference, which is why it's difficult to change, because it would make a difference.
Speaker 2:Yes, anything to add there, emily.
Speaker 4:I would say from a district level, if districts would come out and I plan on hopefully talking to our DP about this but just encouraging and creating a space where people can ask questions and because this is a very people are afraid to ask questions. They're like this looks big and wild and hard. It's not. You just need to know what the rules are. And if there is a more broken down version of how to write an overture, I think that would encourage more laity to be involved also.
Speaker 2:That's so good. You mentioned commission ministers. Are there any other issues that the Synod needs to address at district and national convention? Any other topics that you want to see? Man, we need to work on this, josh first and then Emily.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean this is a conversation. I mean there's so many this is another podcast, uh, so we'll try to handle it right here. Um, you know, community engagement, community organizing, all the things around that. I think there are some things that are in place that that put up, uh, some barriers, but I think any way we can encourage congregations to be partnering with the community community that, to me, has made the biggest difference for us on a congregational level. Our pastor has just been so involved and our whole congregation has got involved with efforts that are happening in the community. And going to the community and saying, hey, where can we support what you're already doing as opposed to and I'll admit, you know, a number of years ago my thing was okay how do we get people onto our campus, how do we start a program, how do we start a thing? And we've really started to shift to this partnering with the community focus and I think any way to encourage that I think would be would be great, Right, emily?
Speaker 2:love that.
Speaker 4:Ditto. I mean, josh and I are both in very urban settings, so it's I don't want to say easier for us to say there's a lot more community involvement. I guess I'll take that back. The community needs Jesus and they see churches as this institution and we need to show them that we are people who are loving Jesus and being the hands and feet of Jesus, versus telling them what we're not about. So that's what? Yeah, just I would echo what Josh said with community involvement, just loving on your neighbors.
Speaker 3:And I'll be specific and you can edit this out later, tim, if you want. But to get specific about it too, look, obviously I'm invested in, you know, lutheran racial justice and multi-ethnic ministry. In that way, the study that got passed hopefully it turns out well. We don't have control over that part of it other than writing emails to encourage as many voices to be a part of that process as possible. But either way, the idea was that that's the first step to figuring out how to diagnose some of the challenges and the problems for multi-ethnic ministry so that we can better partner with Black leaders, multi-ethnic leaders, both within the LCMS and in our communities. So I think that's a big thing.
Speaker 3:And another thing that I just really care about, because I think it's happening on the school level and maybe we only talk about this in doctrinal ways or congregational ways some of the time is just we have to figure out how to better serve the LGBTQ students in our schools, in our congregations and communities. And that is not me making a theological statement, uh, that is me saying wherever you fall uh on, you know scripture, theology, whatever, because there is a diversity of opinion. I know it's on the books doctrinally, but just the reality of where our, how big our church body is. Wherever you fall on that, uh, we have to figure out how to better serve, better meet these students in particular, and so, yeah, those are just a couple of specific things that I'd love to see before.
Speaker 2:That's good. Well, as Lutherans, we should be able to kindly, courageously, say two things at the same time as it relates to that topic that God's intention is for men and women and the marriage relationship is the foundation of society, raising kids to fear and love the Lord. And those that are not in that sort of a relationship are created in the image of God and worthy of dignity and respect and need to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ and need to see a church that is I don't have to agree with all of your lifestyle choices to let you know that you're loved by Jesus. And and I think as Lutherans Mark Mark Schultz, my friend, has been down this path in his ministry that that we we just need to do better in agreeing on what we agree on and then recognizing it really gets down to context, because I think many of our urban centers, our urban churches, are going to and my first five years was in a much more of an urban community the LGBTQ conversation and kids, especially in the T, in the transgender community, kids that have, you know, walked a road and feel like is the church even for me, is my pastor open to hearing my story? And when people hear, like over-emphasis on story.
Speaker 2:That doesn't mean because I full transparency, my congregation is largely Trump supporters. Right, I saw a lot of the struggles with and now it just got political, didn't it Now a lot of the struggles with immigration. We're an Arizona community and so needing to do a better job to shore up our borders. But I think I could say that and, at the same time, say this is a congregation where you can belong here, no matter where you fall, even on the political spectrum, and this was super hard, man, the last two elections have been super hard to walk this line. But I feel as a faith community here all I can control is Christ Greenfield and what comes out of our pulpit. We let people know you belong here. We stand on biblical truth and where there is difference of opinion regarding moral and lifestyle, et cetera multicultural, multi-ethnic we must grow in terms of having arms wide open and I'll just since I'm on this, I just got to keep going because Jesus welcomed everyone. Every person's story matters Good, bad, ugly, the brokenness. Nothing was surprising or shocking to Jesus.
Speaker 2:So I think, as we think about the kids, the young people and older people, but a lot of our kids who have gone down an ideological path which I do not think, long-term, is helpful for them. They still are worthy of love and care and compassion by the local church. Will we welcome them? Set judgment aside, look at them as a human being who is in need of love and care, and Jesus would meet and care for them long before he would judge them. As I see Jesus judging, judgy Jesus, it's much more along the pharisaical line than it is along the immoral line. When people came to Jesus, they were transformed. Go and leave your life of sin, but I do not condemn you, and I think that we have a pharisaical tendency in the LCMS that lovingly needs to be challenged, because who among us are without sin? We desperately need the mercy and grace of Jesus. Emily, and then Josh on this. Thanks for letting me just go on a little bit of a rant.
Speaker 3:Oh no, thanks for doing that. I didn't mean to add that. Okay, Josh, Well. I'll say, since we're modeling, hey, we can have conversations and disagree I didn't agree with everything you said there, but I really respect what you had to say and appreciate it Just in terms of yeah, I think we have some differences opinions on whether or not certain life choices are beneficial or not. That's cool.
Speaker 2:Hey, let's model it. Let's model it. What did I say that you disagree with, and how can we work toward unity?
Speaker 3:Well.
Speaker 2:I disagree with, but maybe you would say it in a different way.
Speaker 3:No, no, I think it's cool. I think this is a bigger conversation about what. What does. How does sexuality and gender work?
Speaker 3:And I don't know if that's within the scope of this podcast, but what I will say is, either way, I think something that we're missing and again I'm including myself in this, this is, you know, our responsibility here is how do we start having conversations about application and opening up that conversation, for instance, to talk about a less controversial subject, abortion. Somebody could, you know, be a hardliner in terms of here's life begins in conception, here's where it's at. This is what I believe. I'm 100 percent here and also go. I don't agree with the that there's only one civic policy, that criminalizing abortion is the way to address this issue. Right, like both things could exist At the same time. You could also say I don't think life begins at conception, and yet abortion should be criminalized across the board. And so those are. I don't know why we can't have more conversation.
Speaker 2:Nuance man.
Speaker 3:Yeah, around the application, and I'm saying this because I know that pastors have gotten trouble for speaking about nuance, about the application, how policies live out in the real world, and I go. That doesn't the theology I get. If somebody says I don't agree with the LCMS doctrine, the scriptural interpretation here, well I get it. But if we're talking about political policy, civic policy, why isn't this up for conversation in a public way? We're all doing this privately. Yeah, I just don't. That's something I'd like to figure out how to navigate more.
Speaker 2:You'd think the church would be better at nuanced conversation. I would, I would hope. I would hope because, especially in our Lutheran context, because it is tension filled, right, law and gospel, and I mean that is the center. I mentioned CFW Walther. As I'm heading to my sabbatical this summer, I'm doing a deep dive into the life and times of CFW Walther and one of his main teachings law gospel book. It's right here on my on my shelf.
Speaker 2:The law always accuses and there is no ability for me to pridefully position myself as more righteous based on what I've done than another person who is being accused in their own way by the law of their sin. And so, yeah, we should become more comfortable and maybe I have you back on where we can have a public conversation around the LGBTQ conversation and even I think we have a lot to learn with one another. And I think I think our context I've made this case on a number of different topics, but our context and our experience with real people in real places really shapes the way we see the world. I would hope that we could agree. We could agree on that. So this go ahead, josh. Close that down.
Speaker 3:And then I got one. Now I'm worried. Did it read like I'm anti LGBTQ? Is that how this? That came out when I said I just think so.
Speaker 4:Okay, I don't think so.
Speaker 3:I would say I'll just put it this way that I in general these conversations are going to my biases towards marginalized care for that community, yeah, and compassion there. So in case, that was unclear.
Speaker 2:No, no, that was definitely not.
Speaker 4:Absolutely what our church is struggling with the most is the where law and gospel is applied and how it's being applied and how. When I say we're praying for, you know, immigrants and asylum seekers or whatever, and somebody goes, I'm only praying for them if they came here legally and it's like where are you being the hands and feet of Jesus? Where are you being the hands and feet of Jesus with all of these topics? Where are you being the hands and feet of Jesus in your overture writing?
Speaker 2:Yeah, amen, hey, let's close with something good. Tell me one story of God at work in your local context where you're like, wow, if other people got a little bit of Jesus, holy Spirit-inspired passion out of this story, man, so many people could be reached with the gospel. We'll start with you first, emily. Any stories of just beauty and awe and wonder of God at work in your Chicago community.
Speaker 4:I get to see in a small congregation. I love that I can see the Holy Spirit working immediately in front of us, working immediately in front of us and I know you can see it in bigger ones. But we're give you the most recent instance is with food pantry. We know that we are in an area that really needs a food pantry. Really there's a lot. It's a food desert. There's a lot of need. So we went into looking into food pantry. Realized that it was. We were way over our heads with that. I told pastor. I was like we can't do this. We have three people that are going to be here. We can't move 5,000 pounds of whatever food once a week. And the next day after we were like okay, we can't do this, we don't know, we're going to pray on it. The next day we get a phone call saying can you do boxed food pantry? I was like, yes, we can. Yes, we can Look at God.
Speaker 2:So that was just one of those things where he really just followed through showed us how we can do it in our small congregation.
Speaker 3:And it was awesome and it's going really well. Josh Jesus story yeah, talked about it a little bit but when we made the turn a few years ago in our congregation to focus on partnering with the community, we kind of gave our pastor permission to spend a good amount of his time just in the community and we have a smaller church, so I know it's easier for us to do than maybe some congregations and he ended up getting elected to the neighborhood council and really formed a lot of relationships and built trust there and through that we ended up getting connected with local organizers. That especially around tourism industry, which is largely, you know, immigrant industry. Here in Los Angeles we're talking hotel workers, the airport, we got the Olympics coming up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, 28.
Speaker 3:Yeah dependent on them and they've been promised pay raises and health benefits that have never come through from the city. And so these community partners started saying, hey, would your congregation consider publicly speaking up for this? And so we did as a congregation, and I got to give most of the credit to our pastor, to Matt Waite, who has really shown up. I've gone to a couple of meetings and those kinds of things, but nowhere near what he's done, going to City Hall, speaking at City Hall, speaking as a pastor, and I think there's a perception about, you know, secular world, especially maybe Los Angeles, where it's like, oh, it must be hard to be a Christian.
Speaker 3:We've had the opposite experience. Where they're going, hey, would you come pray with us, would you? They say like, hey, we'd love it if you'd be openly a pastor, wear your collar, like we don't want to. You know, we want you to represent, like who you are, and those kind of things. And it's been a really cool experience. And the good news on the other side of that is that it's it's going to pass, it's down to the last vote is happening this week and so actual, like a change happened there. So that's been cool.
Speaker 2:Hey, I really appreciate you both. Thank you for your, your passion for speaking, for aiding the church, and I'm praying for more and more unity, for more and more voices to be heard in the LCMS. It takes, as our district president, josh, says, it takes all types of churches to reach all types of people and we need all types of lay leaders, commission leaders to let their voice be heard and pastors to lovingly invite all of the priesthood, of all believers, to be with us. I'm not to close my closing comment. I don't spend and you've got a day job, josh, so do you Emily.
Speaker 2:It's not like a lot of our time gets spent thinking about these things. I think the perception because sometimes we have more of these political oriented is like I'm like fixated on the bureaucracy of the LCMS, like no, I'm leaving this going to a campus meeting talking about how we reach people with the gospel of Jesus Christ. I'm just a learner. I've been at the table trying to get to microphones, but that is like a very, very, very small percentage of my head and heart space, so just let it be known. I'm sure the same is for you both, but that little bit spread out among many different voices over time could make a change, Josh, your thoughts.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's exactly it. It's Emily and I calling each other as we're like getting kids to the car and into an office or doing like whatever we have to like. It's those conversations that add up over months. Hey, I'll squeeze in a Zoom here like this. It's getting the scraps of our time, but yeah, hopefully it all adds up to some ripple effect for sure. Closing word. Emily.
Speaker 4:I just say amen to that. It is something that in the moment, can feel like it's a lot, especially leading up to convention. And then it's a lot of preparatory work and, like Josh said, we showed up at the convention and we were like it's, it's a great networking opportunity to meet other like-minded. I mean, we had a Zoom this week on Bible study and somebody goes I didn't know, there were Lutherans, like you guys, and we're like, oh, I guess, Thank you, like it's wonderful.
Speaker 3:Not to barge in again, but we hosted happy hours. Lutheran's Facial Justice did at the last convention and we we didn't know if anybody was going to show up. We had hundreds of people showing up and we're talking. District presidents came and circuit visitors and kind of every level and I was shocked but it was a great way to like. That's what coalition building's about, if people want to connect with you, josh.
Speaker 2:How can they do so?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm on the IG Instagram, just at Josh Salzberg, Probably the easiest way if you want to message me there. Otherwise, info at Lutherans for Racial Justice if you want to chat about that side of thing. Love it, Emily. Your contact.
Speaker 4:If you want to learn more about Tabor in Chicago Iglesia Tabor, because we started a Spanish ministry also which has taken off it's info at TaborChicagoorg.
Speaker 2:Love it. This is lead time. Like, subscribe, comment. Wherever it is you take this in and continue to pray for individual churches and for our church body that we would unite in mission to make Jesus known. The days are far too short to do anything other than that. So it's a good day. Go make it a great day. Jesus loves you Both, Josh and Emily.
Speaker 1:And thank you for your investment in this conversation. Peace, Amen. Thank you. Go to theuniteleadershiporg to create your free login for exclusive material and resources and then to explore ways in which you can sponsor an episode. Thanks for listening and stay tuned for next week's episode.