Lead Time
Lead Time
Why Most Lutherans Still Struggle With Identity
The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod often talks about vocation—but are we living it out? In this powerful episode, Tim Ahlman and Jack Kalleberg sit down with Dr. Travis Guse, executive coach and author of Called to Be, to challenge the assumption that “calling” is only for pastors and church workers.
Travis shares his journey through burnout, identity crisis, and rediscovering Luther’s radical teaching that every baptized believer has a holy calling—whether they’re pastors, parents, accountants, or baristas. The conversation explores:
✅ Why so many in the LCMS struggle with identity and purpose
✅ How Luther’s view of vocation can transform ordinary life
✅ Why coaching may be the key to raising up healthier leaders and congregations
✅ The controversial question: Does the LCMS undervalue the callings of everyday believers?
This episode will make you rethink what it means to follow Jesus in the LCMS—and why discovering your God-given calling may be the most urgent issue facing the church today.
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This is Lead Time.
Speaker 2:Welcome to Lead Time. Tim Allman here, jack Calberg in the house. Life is good, jack. Hey, you feeling good?
Speaker 3:Fantastic man. It's a beautiful day here and life is good.
Speaker 2:It really is. May the joy of Jesus be with you today, as you're buckled up to learn with Travis Goosey. Let me tell you a little bit about him. He's been a guest on Lead Time before in the past, but he's got a new book, a couple books that we wanted to talk about today. He's an International Coaches Federation Certified Life and Executive Coach Gallup Strength Coach In 2022,. He completed his doctorate in coaching at Western Seminary in Portland, oregon. He serves in the Southeastern District of the LCMS as Executive Director of Wellness and Coaching. We're going to be talking a little bit about wellness, too today. Travis lives in Williamsburg, virginia, with his wife, stephanie, and one son, kendall. His passion is empowering everyday believers to discover and live out their authentic calling in Christ. What a cool calling is that, travis? You're loving life. How are you doing, buddy?
Speaker 4:Yeah, doing good. Actually, since that we've moved to Richmond Virginia, so not too far away, but pretty close.
Speaker 3:Is that still in the same district, then yeah, Southeastern District.
Speaker 4:Yeah, we moved our offices from the DC area down to Richmond, and so I thought it'd be a little better to be closer to the office, cool.
Speaker 2:Well, good stuff. I'm sorry about that.
Speaker 4:Yeah, no, no, no, I think I led you the wrong way on that, so my apologies.
Speaker 3:How's that move been for you?
Speaker 4:Good, good. Yeah, it's helping me get up and down the district a little bit more, and especially that the 64 going between Richmond and Williamsburg they're expanding the freeway so it's cutting off a little congestion in time off my travel.
Speaker 3:So yeah, I love Virginia.
Speaker 4:Yeah, beautiful, beautiful state.
Speaker 2:It is very pretty. It's no wonder the founders actually in our country chose hey, let's chill here. It is pretty spectacular, so let's get into calling. Your book is all about calling. If you don't know, one book is called who have you Been Called to Be? A Studying on Coaching and Luther's Teaching on Vocation, and then his other kind of seminal work is this book called Called to Be? And yeah, I love it. Why is discovering and living out one's authentic calling in Christ so necessary and why is it so rare? Travis, let's start there.
Speaker 4:Yeah, you know, I think that I mean this was definitely as my first book, that's actually my dissertation that who have you Been Called to Be, we got it published. Really, seeing that for ministry leaders and coaches and for me it's just, I think that, similar to Luther's day, so many believers don't realize they have a calling. I think they, if you were to ask today and Barna has done some research on this if you ask people, hey, who has a calling? Pastors, yeah, they've got a calling. Church workers, worship leaders, sunday school teachers, they have callings. But if you ask somebody, does an accountant have a calling? Does a garbage collector have a calling? Does somebody who works at McDonald's have a calling? I think most people would say no, they don't. Works at McDonald's have a calling? I think most people would say no, they don't.
Speaker 4:And I think that was the beauty of Luther's teaching on vocation is that no, it's not just church workers, priests, monks, like back in their day it was the same thing, those people had callings. Everybody else just did stuff. And from Luther's perspective it's no, every baptized believer has a holy calling in life and it's not just what you do on Sunday morning, but you has a holy calling in life, and it's not just what you do on Sunday morning, but you have a holy calling in every aspect of your life and it's what God does in and through that, to bring his blessing and his provision that we get to be part of God's kingdom even in the ordinary things of life and his moving and working.
Speaker 2:Let's get into that a little bit deeper. His moving and working. Let's get into that a little bit deeper. Luther, for those that don't. I mean we talk vocation and Luther a lot here, but I don't know that we always ground it in scripture. So I'd love for you to just take us. Where did Luther ground his understanding of the royal priesthood? Obviously we got first Peter right, but where did he ground in other places this elevated view of every baptized believer called Travis?
Speaker 4:Yeah it. You know, for Luther it really came down to. You know the encouragement Paul had. You know, don't forget your calling.
Speaker 4:You know that Paul would talk about, and it was this idea that you know, calling was something that wasn't grounded so much in what you did, but it was first and foremost grounded in who we are in Christ.
Speaker 4:So it's that baptismal calling First.
Speaker 4:Peter talks about that being part of that priesthood of all believers.
Speaker 4:But it also is that grounding in that ultimate identity that each and every one of us has through faith in our baptism that we're a child of God and because of that calling by grace, through faith that we freely receive, then it begins in the horizontal plane of life. It begins to redefine everything that we do, so because of who we are in Christ, in that vertical relationship. Then, all of a sudden, now, in all of our areas of responsibility of life, again, it's not just stuff we do, but now it takes on this holy nature to it. And so one of the ideas I love in doing some research around Luther and his teaching is this idea that we ascend in faith in that vertical relationship, but now we descend in love and service to our neighbors and our everyday callings of life, and so it redefined what it is to be part of the church. It redefined what it is to be a parent, to go into your workplace and have a holy sense of calling and just loving and serving your neighbor and your community.
Speaker 3:So it starts with identity right, yes, absolutely. You know, I've read a lot of, you know, Luther's writings and that word, that's a common word now. But then I don't. You didn't hear it as much. Right, you had to kind of infer okay, that's what we're getting at, it's getting at this identity, that it's the who we are statement. That's right. Right, that's not something that we create for ourselves, but something that is being formed and molded onto us by God.
Speaker 4:And gifted.
Speaker 3:And gifted as well, gifted to us by God. So think about this, think about how much people are struggling with this issue of identity right now, and even in the church, even in the church, I think people really struggle with identity and I think we we the wider, the broader church, let's say, doesn't always have really great language to talk about that and really necessarily ground people in identity as well as it could.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I think part of the problem is whether we're taking an outside in or an inside out approach. So I think a lot of times we have tended to look to things external for ourselves for identity. What I did in my job, and you know so what job did I have, the prestige that came from it, the accolades or achievements I make. We tended to look at where we live, zip codes. We tended to get identity from family. You know what family, what nationality, what nation you came from, all these different kind of things externally.
Speaker 4:But I think what the challenge is in our brokenness of our society, which, let's just admit that the further we get away from the faith of our ancestors, the more that those things get stripped away from us. Also, when we suddenly struggle with the breakdown of families, we're losing a sense of identity there. We're losing a sense of connection and nationality and community. We're losing a sense in this changing workplace where suddenly you didn't have one job that you had for your entire life. But now you know, I think, that people on average in a lifetime is going to go through seven, not just different jobs, but careers and what's coming with AI in the next 10 years, entire industries that are going to be automated and no longer having humans in the workforce.
Speaker 4:Suddenly, all these things that we look to externally for identity have been stripped away. They're not solid, they don't last, and so it's causing us to have to go inside to ask really deep questions who am I, what's life about, what's my purpose, why am I here, and what difference am I supposed to make? And so I think we have an entire society that is longing for this sense of identity, because there's no permanence in the things that we used to look to, and that's the wonderful gift, I think, why the time is right to rediscover this incredibly rich teaching of the scriptures and Luther had rediscovered 500 years ago is no, there is an identity that we have that is freely given in Christ, and it's that that begins to then inform the rest of not only who we are but what life is about.
Speaker 3:If somebody wanted to go back to some of Luther's original writings, what's a good starting point for people to kind of see.
Speaker 4:Yeah, you know, one of the best books on it is there's a book by Gustav Wingren Luther on Vocation. Now it's kind of deep. I mean I, like for my doctor work, had to read through that at least three different times, but it is really rich. I would say that's a great work there it is.
Speaker 3:Tim's got it on his bookshelf.
Speaker 4:Got at Work by Jean Edward Vieth is another fantastic book, and actually it was really an entry point for me in a lot of this a number of years ago. So those would be two that I would look to to really say, hey, if you really want to take a deeper dive in this, those are the two places to go.
Speaker 2:Let's get into called to be. I know this kind of piggybacks on your dissertation work, but how did it start and what exactly is your aim? I love your tagline how to discover and live out your calling in Christ. I know it's just more of what it is, but you've kind of started this movement, if you will, around the conversation of identity, and I love it, Travis. So tell the story of Call to Peace.
Speaker 4:Yeah, you know, it started about 18 years ago. I was serving as a pastor my first call, pastoral call in Southern California. I had a rough ministry experience and had to step out for a season just to get some healing. Wasn't anything really more than that but for my wife and I. But what turned into thinking it was going to be a short-term stepping out turned into a year and a half of being out of ministry and honestly really struggling with my own personal journey of who am I and what's life about when I'm not a pastor. And I didn't realize how much of my identity had got caught up in that idea of being a pastor, the validation of who I was from, what I did and the feedback I got from others. And when you were without that for any kind of season of time I mean anybody who's unemployed, without a job I mean you wrestle with these questions. I think a lot of people also who retire wrestle with these questions because so much of their identity was wrapped up in their work for so many years. Now, when you're retired, who am I? So it's a big struggle and I really was. I mean probably some of the deepest depression I ever had and it really forced me to go back to OK, well, who am I? It forced me to go back to Jesus to rediscover your child of God. That's where your identity is.
Speaker 4:And it was at that time that a few different things came about, kind of all at once in my life. I really kind of discovered this idea of Luther's teaching on vocation through Jean Edward V's book God at Work. So I kind of got this idea that everybody has a calling, not just church workers. Ok, that's, that's great to hear, and it's in who you are, in Christ. At the same time, I discovered a new assessment tool that was just coming out through a church mosaic in LA. They had a leadership development process and they were using Strengths Fighter, or now CliftonStrengths has been rebranded by Gallup a few years ago and suddenly I had words and articulation for things I always knew about myself as part of God's gifting and design in my life that I just didn't have before. And it was just these aha moments.
Speaker 4:I suddenly understood why it wasn't this square peg trying to be put in the round hole of pastoral ministry. Why was it? I enjoyed talking to Muslims more than doing hospital visits. Why was I entrepreneurial rather than just shepherding and caring for people and it gave me that understanding. This is how God designed, gifted me and wired me that way.
Speaker 4:And then the third thing is, through that assessment, through Gallup and some other things, I came to discover this field of coaching a way to help people, not pour into people, but to help people discern and pull out in their life this idea of identity, purpose, gifting, meaning, and found a way to disciple people in a personal and practical way that I didn't have before. I mean, I always felt as a pastor it was like this shotgun approach, preaching and teaching and just hope that it hit somebody. But I discovered this personal way that I could, like laser focus in with people, to have these deep conversations which really are about calling and vocation and life in a way that I didn't have, that was personal and practical for people. And it was kind of this time where all these things came together that it helped me in my life, that I saw man, what a great way to be able to walk along and help people in discovering and living out their calling as well.
Speaker 2:Travis, congratulations, you won. I mean the Holy Spirit won through you, because it's really easy to give up and to say I'm moving on. God, your call, in some respects, as you've abandoned me, and to live a green with Job's wife right, curse God and die. Why does this have to happen to me? But to trust in a God who is going to lead you through the valley of the shadow of death and you're gonna survive and you're gonna thrive. On the other side there's a lot of leaders, travis, who don't make it, who give up. So if this is you and you feel like you're stuck, you've given up that God doesn't have a mission, purpose, plan and calling upon your life.
Speaker 2:I pray this podcast would be a catalyst to keep moving, keep trusting, keep trying, keep building, keep failing and keep getting back up again, because life is really, really hard and, apart from the calling that we have in our baptism in Christ and the hope that we have in the future, because Christ is going to return to raise the dead and make all things new, that future hope is what catalyzes us for love and good deeds. In the present moment, we get to be about the greatest love story of all time bringing love to those who feel unlovable, and to identify and to confess. There are moments and there are parts about me this is what I love about Strength Finders that I don't find lovable, and if I'm living according to those, if I'm kind of beating the drum to a different beat than how God has hardwired me to live, oh, my goodness, it's going to be unfortunate. Our team has just actually been walking through Strength Finders.
Speaker 3:And team assessment and team assessment With a facilitator and everything it was fantastic.
Speaker 2:Seeing some of our trends as a team. It's been very, very helpful. Oh, that's why you're the way you are and that's why, when you're doing something that is not in your natural gifting, you get frustrated, you get angry, you know. And so how do we help people live according?
Speaker 4:to how God has hardwired them to live Anything more to say, travis, to what Spring Fire has meant to you. Yeah, I'll tell you, it just is really honoring God's workmanship in a person. I mean to be able to say, hey, this is what I and I think that's a beautiful thing is. It gives you permission of knowing, hey, this is who God's wired me to be. And it's not that we can't do stuff we're not gifted in. But, as you talked about, you know, you sometimes wonder why you don't do it as well. It takes more time, it takes more energy and you get frustrated. But boy, it sure is a nice permission to be able to say you know what, this is what I'm good at. Let me figure out how to put more of my time kind of do like job sculpting. Let me get more focused on what I do well, so that I can be that blessing that God intended me and make that impact I'm supposed to, and to be able to say you know what? I'm not as gifted at that, and either I've got to find some ways to kind of manage that, get that off my plate, or to be able to partner with people who have complimentary giftings to me. And then this idea of the power of two that you know we're better together than we are by ourselves. When I'm doing what I do well in my strength zone and somebody's working in their strength zone, that happens to be my stress zone, and yet we're working together. We get more accomplished than we can by ourself.
Speaker 4:And Tim, I did want to say one other thing. You talked about that encouragement to people going through difficulties. You know, for me I really saw what I went through as a crucible moment. I always believe there's a moment God saves us and there's a moment God recreates us. Sometimes that's one and the same, sometimes they're different moments of life. And you know that moment where you've got nowhere else to go but the cross of Jesus. And the wonderful thing I love that Luther teaches is that when we have those crosses of our vocations and we fall at our knee before the cross that Luther talks about how he meets us with his grace, with his presence and with fresh expressions of the spirits moving in our life, that God recreates us and starts working through us in new and powerful ways. And it's this idea that God doesn't just redeem us, but he can even redeem the hardships, the mistakes no-transcript.
Speaker 3:It's back to Luther when he said you know, repent is not a one time thing, it's an entire life of repentance. Yeah, I think, I think you're right. I feel like every single day there's a process where you know we're being built into something different by God, right, and that process never stops until we die and then it continues in the resurrection, right, amen you is in the resurrection right, Amen.
Speaker 2:Hey, for those that have not looked into. Clifton Strength Finders for your team. What's the best place for them to go? Find it Now before I let you kind of promoted it a little bit. I'm a promoter, so if you look on the wheel fast-paced people it's not going to surprise anybody if they've listened to me for a while. I'm a promoter. I love getting behind areas where God is at work and telling stories and I'm a challenger. Platforms, et cetera. Yeah, Jack, you're definitely a challenger.
Speaker 3:I'm the kind of guy that says what do you mean by that?
Speaker 2:Asking a lot of questions and what I like about it is it says how are you adapting in the workplace and are you adapting toward your strength or away from your strength? So one of the things just to assess for me. I've had to adapt over time in a ministry that was financially anxious. I've had to adapt more into a persuader, so I crossed above into fast task and that's not sustainable for me. I need to live fast with people and then have people that are fast with a task, like Jack, and so asking people for money is not in my wheelhouse.
Speaker 2:I can do it, but it really is hard for me and because I've seen it actually hurt relationship. It's almost like inconsistent with how God hardwired me and I think sometimes people can even like see through. This isn't your natural gifting to persuade me in this direction. And honestly, in a number of like the controversial topics in the LCMS that we've like talked about, I don't like hanging there for very long, I can like touch on it, but I just like to promote the beauty and goodness and wonder and awe and like the new ideas that are that are coming about. Some of the ideas are great, some of them are not, and let's assess it together. I mean, that's how God kind of hardwired me, but to like get into a long form debate with someone to try to win an argument feels like power and control to me and that that that's not how God has hardwired me to live in that, in that, in that space. Anything more to say to that Jack and how we're assessing?
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, that's interesting Cause I kind of made a connection as I was kind of reflecting on myself.
Speaker 3:I'm one of the very few people on our staff that has that more of that challenger.
Speaker 3:Uh, you know the uh, was it the eight on the Enneagram, kind of kind of the on the wheel they call it the conductor right and kind of.
Speaker 3:I made a connection that actually my, my frankness is kind of a spiritual gift that a lot of people don't have, and actually my love language is actually challenge, and so the thing that people need to know about me is like that's actually the way that I love people is that I see their potential and I just care so much about them that I'm not willing to let things go. I want to speak to them about hey, no, you can do this better. Imagine how great it would be if you actually stepped up and did this thing Right, and or, you know, if we all gathered around this idea together Right. So it's actually a, it's actually a way that I love people, and I think that's the key thing is I have to keep telling myself that and not let it ever kind of be an expression of anger or frustration or anything like that, but just really be like a love expression to people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're weird on our team and being slow or data. We don't have many folks that are slow data and task and that's probably okay. Most of our team two thirds or three fourths of our team are in the quadrant that I'm in with their natural skills fast paced people. There also is some said I was I was hypothesizing if you're in a different kind of church that's maybe a little older and you're a soul pastor and your days look different than a lot of our days. You may be in the people but slower pace toward getting things done.
Speaker 2:You've adapted toward that direction. Travis, how has God made you and when you were going through that assessment, were you living like? Were you having to adapt to do things kind of like I was, that weren't in your gifting? Tell that story.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, definitely. And again that goes back to, I think, that feeling of being a square peg trying to be put in a round hole, like. One of the things that was really interesting was I had I went through our North American mission track at the seminary. So I mean, I've always been outreach, mission oriented and I went through a behavioral assessment on my vicarage. I was involved in a mission start and they were talking to me it's like, well, travis, what do you do? Naturally, you know I'm talking about connecting with people from all different cultural backgrounds and social economic backgrounds. And they said, well, how do you do that? And I'm like I don't know, I just do it, it's just natural to me.
Speaker 4:And then a few years later I took CliftonStrengths and suddenly number one was Includer. I'm always looking for people on the outside wanting to bring them on the inside. And then my number four is Connectedness, this unseen spider webs of relationships and events in life. Everything's connected together and I think it's those two that really are part of that missional gifting and impulse that God gives where I'm able to connect with people from so many various backgrounds. The other things about my top five number two ideation. I got more ideas than I know what to do with. They're not all good ideas, but I got ideas for you and somewhere in there there's some nuggets Strategic number three, no-transcript like she had a pin wanting to pop my idea bubbles of the future and it was like, ah, this is just so beautiful. She's a realist, yeah. Well, so for her, her giftings are like analytical, deliberative discipline, harmony. She always says my ideation disrupts her harmony in life.
Speaker 4:But what I've learned We've already decided this why are we? Yeah, yeah, exactly Right. But what we learned was what we thought were differences, and this could be in marriage, this could be in the workplace. We suddenly, through CliftonStrengths, came to realize it's how we're being complementary to each other and actually, where I'm strong, she's weak and vice versa. She's not as gifted and yet together. And what I learned was to take my ideas to her. If she could pop it, I need to go back to the drawing board and think some things through. Or she started learning how to serve me by helping me refine my ideas and think through my ideas in more detail. That I needed. I mean, I'm the initial conceptual strategy guy. Now say hey, hon, how do I make this better and how do I make sure I don't fail at this, and so that's how we started realizing we work together and that we need those kind of people in our life to accomplish the things that God's calling us to.
Speaker 2:Let's get into the details of your basic calling model.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And why it's important to help people find their calling sweet spot. Talk about that, Travis.
Speaker 4:Yeah. So it's this idea that if you were to think of three circles that overlap each other, one of them is how we have been gifted in our strengths in life. That's part of God's workmanship and design, and we utilize some different tools. Cliftonstrengths is one of those. Disc is another one that can be very helpful. Myers-briggs I mean. There's not one magic assessment to rule them all. They all show different aspects of ourselves, but we use some tools to get into some of our gifting in life.
Speaker 4:Also our passions. That's another circle. What are the deep burdens in our life or the things that we get super excited about? Because that's the gas in the tank, not only for yourself, but even Barna has found that really different initiatives to serve communities. About 70 percent of the time are gathered around a common passion in life. So that's also going to bring a group together.
Speaker 4:And then the third it's not asking the question what does the world need? I think that's way too big, but I think a good question to ask is who needs what I have to offer? And that really helps you hone in on that calling sweet spot, because not everybody needs what you have to offer, but there are people who desperately need what you have to offer People who, for them, what you offer in life may be common around. That common passion is exactly what they need to be able to achieve what God's calling them to, and again, it's that partnership together.
Speaker 4:So it's, you know, we can do things, but if it's not matched by passion, well, that's not going to last very long. We're going to get bored, we're going to not have the energy for it. Or if we have passion but we don't have gifting, that's like American Idol OK, you may have a passion for singing, but you don't belong on a stage making money at this and then finding that third, you know who needs what you, uniquely, can bless them with. And when you bring those three circles together, that's your calling sweet spot. It's almost like when you've been out golfing and you hear that ping, where you just hit that just dead on and that's where you get that good hit. That goes a long way versus usually what I'm doing is I'm either slicing or hooking to the left or right and trying to hunt for my ball. You know we don't need to be hunting for our ball, we want to try to get that, that sweet spot.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so let's talk to maybe a younger leader who feels like man, I'm doing something right now. That is just not aligned. I think an unwise thing is to immediately quit that thing.
Speaker 4:Yes, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Right and I've interacted with young leaders who make bad decisions to stop doing what they're currently doing in anticipation of creating the ideal and perfect. Calling and I think the misnomer is like I'm going to find this exactly perfect is so in our vocabulary today the perfect. There's no perfect, it's moving toward the ideal. In my estimation, it's actually always being perfectly content in my identity and then always moving, striving, pushing, listening, being led into what? That future, because I don't exactly know. It's a sense of wonder and awe about how God is kind of going to unfold.
Speaker 2:I do know that I've been called to this place at this time and for me as a pastor, I mean I wouldn't do anything else. I love telling people about Jesus and being on team to see lives transform, but like creating the perfect environment, like Jack, we're not even close to that right now. We're always, we're always moving forward. So what word of wisdom would you give to that leader who feels like they're not in their sweet spot right now, but they see it. What, what's, what are words of wisdom as they try to create by the spirit's power that preferred future?
Speaker 4:Yeah, first of all, calling is not always about future. Calling is where you are today. It's as far as your hands can reach and your eyes can see. It's who God has put before you. Those are the people you've been called to. So I think what it is is start where you're at today.
Speaker 4:First of all, get an idea. How have I been gifted so you're knowing what you do well and what you don't In that area? If there are things that you're not doing as well, who can you partner with to do better? Or how can you offload that? And that takes some job, sculpting, that takes some time to sometimes get there. The other is how do you tap into passion to get an idea of what are the things that I'm really passionate about? And if you can't really get that, maybe in one area, maybe it's work. Really get that, maybe in one area, maybe it's work.
Speaker 4:You know, find some other areas where you can tap into passions in life so that you're getting a chance to fuel yourself and using your gifts in some other areas. It may be with your spouse, it may be in doing some service in the community, and then it's really just serving in all these different stations. You know Luther talks about this idea of in the church, in our workplace, in our family and in our community. Take a look at who are the people that God has placed in your life there and now say, okay, with my passions and my gifting, who can I serve and in what way? In my church, in my family, in my workplace?
Speaker 4:And then it's a matter of then prayer. Sometimes it's trial and error. Having a coach with you kind of helps you discern that and walk through that a little bit. And then the last thing I would say is you know, sometimes it may take some work to get from where you are to where you sense God's calling you to, and that may be not just disciplined attachment to where you are today, but it may be planning. It may be some training going to school today, but it may be planning, it may be some training going to school. It may take some time to have this discipline detachment in order to start moving towards what you're doing. But I would definitely say and this is from my own experience I stepped out of ministry when I went through that challenge too quickly. I jumped out of it and I made some kind of knee-jerk reactions out of emotions that I wish I hadn't, and that's where having somebody walk along with you, whether it's a coach or a mentor, so that you're doing it in a wise way, discerning prayerfully, I think is really crucial.
Speaker 2:Knowing self and where I'm prone to error, I think, knowing your blind sides. When I'm in stress, how am I going to respond? Right, and I? Here's my experience Every time I've thought about making an idea from a place of heavy emotion, intensity, saying doing the thing, it just doesn't go well, I need to step back, get above, get to the balcony, whatever metaphor you want to use, pursue peace, and clarity comes in the place of peace rather than the place of anxiety, jack. Anything more to say there?
Speaker 3:No, I agree with your comment. I actually have a follow-up kind of question, because this is out of selfishness, right, because of the ministry we serve in. So in our context, we are really really high on the idea that we want people to discover their calling and we're also very passionate about our staff. We have this phrase. We say you're developers, not doers, right. So if we're hiring you on staff or hiring you to develop people, that's your job, right. So what would you recommend? What would you say are some of the best resources if we want to resource people really well to do that? I'm kind of curious to know your take on maybe ways churches have really programatized that, that idea of helping people to understand what their calling is and then maybe equipping people in leadership to kind of maybe speak calling into people based on what we get to learn about them in relationship.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I'd say that what we're starting to do here in the southeastern district, this, this could, I think, be a really powerful thing. I mean, there's obviously preaching. We can do teaching, bible study around vocation and calling pour in give that framework. Bible study around vocation and calling pour in give that framework. I think there are great tools that we can utilize CliftonStrengths, disc. I use another one, kind of in character, because I think character is really important. Via, values in Action, is a great one. I know you've mentioned Enneagram. There are a lot of great tools to utilize.
Speaker 4:The thing that we've been really working hard here in the Southeastern District and is really kind of the vision of what I'm hoping that we accomplish with Called to Be is we have been raising up all these coaches throughout our district. So we've got, right now, 21 certified coaches here in the Southeastern District. We've got another five we're going to be adding in the fall and a lot of these coaches are not just helping us in our work we're doing in the district, but they're taking these coaching skills how to work with people personally and practically, not wide but very narrow and deep with people in this idea of who are you, how have you been gifted. How also, are you taking care of yourself Heart, soul, mind and body, Good kind of practices of self-care. And now, with who you are and how you've been gifted, where's God put you? What can you do with those gifts to love and serve others and walk along with people?
Speaker 4:So for me, I think getting people trained in the skills of coaching to help people in this vocational discernment and gifting in life is probably one of the biggest things that we can do.
Speaker 4:I mean we can preach and teach all day, like, for example, years past. You know we always wonder all this training we've done on evangelism and why it never seems to move the needle of people feeling comfortable going out and sharing Jesus. But boy, if you could take that training and partner with a coach to help people personalize this saying well, okay, what does sharing Jesus look like if I'm an introvert, not an extrovert? What does sharing Jesus look like with the unique giftings and in the unique places that I've been, with the unique people that I'm called to serve and think through and develop more intentional strategies in doing this and then to walk with them, to also help them maybe overcome that fear that they have to do it in a way that they find the boldness and the strength of Christ, and that's natural to them. I think that that would really move the needle quite a bit on all this.
Speaker 3:I was just thinking to myself and I don't know how practical you think this is, but you know, like, say to a large church ministry, what if a church made a commitment that everyone serving in a pastoral and a director type role was actually certified as a coach? Amen Went through like a formal coaching curriculum, how powerful would that be, you know? Yeah, it's just like I like to ideate on things like that. I don't know, what do you think? Do you think that's a logistically feasible thing for a church to do?
Speaker 4:Well, and that's part of what we're getting ready to try to do with Called to Be is we are right now. So I did my, my dissertation project where we did this in a local area with some churches here in Richmond, had a number of individuals who went through some workshops and then we took some of them and coached them and we really saw the real positive impact of not just this workshop on calling and vocation, but let's coach people intentionally on it. It really moved the needle for them. So what we're looking at now is finding about five congregations to beta test this in, to share this called the vocational framework that we have of identity, empowerment and impact. And now let's train in.
Speaker 4:What we're envisioning is this idea of Barnabas coaches, so the sons and daughters of encouragement, similar to how Barnabas was with Paul in him stepping into his calling in life. If we could train these individuals with some basic coaching skills in a local congregation maybe similar to like Stephen Ministry, you know so for Stephen Ministry having those people who are trained to be caregivers in a congregation to help people find healing and let them know they're not alone. If we could do that with coaching skills to help people discern and live out their calling and walk along with them. I think that would be transformative for the local church.
Speaker 2:What do you say to someone? I've heard the argument against coaching. Now, I've been trained in coaching and getting my ICF certification here later this year, starting in the fall actually, and I'm about half the way there with some coaching that our district provided, or coach training that our district provided for me, and I'm about half the way there with some coaching that our district provided, or coach training that our district provided for me, and I'm currently coaching about five pastors and that's about it for me, that rhythm once a month, kind of connecting and tracking along and getting to document their self-discovery, their Holy Spirit inspired discovery, and it's just, it's a beautiful thing. But I've heard some maybe theologians argue against coaching. Like where's coaching in the Bible? Shouldn't we use something more commensurate with mentorship or discipleship?
Speaker 2:Uh, coaching coaching kind of puts one person as the, the, the learned person, and maybe can in turn like lower the. I'm just giving you the arguments. I don't agree with it. I think there's definitely a place in the church for coaching, but what do you say to someone who makes a theological argument against it? Travis?
Speaker 4:Yeah, I would say. First of all, coaching is a mindset and a skill set that obviously got developed outside of the church. So I think we just need to acknowledge that. But also, counseling was too. You know, it didn't originate.
Speaker 4:I think these are here's where I think Luther's teaching on vocation comes in. All callings can be holy callings. They also can be unholy too if we're not loving and serving neighbor with our callings. But every calling has value and God can work through them. So in the first article Sense of the World, these are still God's good gifts and these things have been developed and we can utilize them to love and serve others.
Speaker 4:Now, coaching is not discipleship, but there's a lot of tools that we can use for discipleship Preaching, teaching, mentoring can be. I mean, I 100% think that especially kind of in formation and helping have somebody walk along as a role model. But where I think coaching is unique for mentoring is mentoring is more like be like me and let me learn you. Coaching is not a pouring in, it's a pulling out process, it's walking along with people simply. Really, at the end of the day, coaching is just serving as a creative think partner. You're thinking and praying about stuff.
Speaker 4:I'm going to use these skills of listening and active list or act or asking powerful questions and other tools that I bring to just help you think deeper, deepen that awareness of who are you, how have you been gifted, what's the opportunities around you, what are the challenges, help you think through, how are you going to overcome those and address them and move forward, even with obstacles, with the best that God's given to you, and then to further the action of just now to step out more intentionally in those things. So, yes, it's not biblical, you're not going to find a coach in the Bible, but there is this idea of calling and vocation and where I see that coaching fits the best is within that framework of vocation, helping people discern and live out their calling, and it's a great tool in the tool belt to be able to bring along with also counseling, mentoring and other skills that we find out there that, yes, they're. They're not maybe found in the Bible, but they're part of God's good gifting in the first article, order of creation.
Speaker 2:Good, it's a great, great response. Hey, let's close our conversation talking about wellness. Ministry is hard. Life can be very hard and anxiety and heart, body, mind, spirit, soul care. We can be human doings rather than human beings. You know so what? What is it about wellness that you're trying to work toward in your, in your district, and feel free to use? I like your empowerment plan. You can use that as a paradigm. This is from your called to be. We talk strength, heart, mind, soul, with the cross at the center. Let's talk wellness. What are we getting after there, Travis?
Speaker 4:Yeah, it's this idea that you know, I think one of the things, especially for our church workers we've been trying to help with the district, One of the things especially for our church workers we've been trying to help with the district and this would be for all people is that self-care is not a selfish act. You know, when you're on an airplane and the oxygen masks come down and they say, put it on, what do they tell you to do? Put it on yourself first before you put it on a neighbor, because if you pass out you can't help anybody. So take care of yourself first and then you can help somebody else. So we really need to prioritize that. You know, I think it's especially for our church workers. It's very easy to justify not taking care of yourself, not exercising. I mean, I had a first pastor I served with who he was like in his late 40s, early 50s, but he looked like he was late 70s, never exercised, always huffing up, puffing up the stairs. The only liquids he ever drank was coffee or wine. I don't think he ever drank water and and it impacted him because he was always tired and he wasn't able to show up at his best in his callings or for his family.
Speaker 4:There's a great quote and this is something I love. This is from Concerning Christian Liberty, martin Luther. He says it is the part of the Christian to take care of his own body for the very purpose that by the soundness and well-being he may be enabled to labor and to acquire and preserve prosperity for the aid of those who are in want. That thus the stronger member may serve the weaker member and we may be children of God, thoughtful and busy for one another, bearing one another's burdens and so fulfilling the law of Christ. That here even Luther puts this idea of self-care, taking care of ourselves, within this idea of calling and vocation, so we, the stronger parts, can care for the weaker parts. And that's really what it's about making sure we're caring for ourselves, heart, soul, mind and body. I know in the Lutheran circles we've got the wellness wheel. There's some other things financial wellness, vocational wellness, intellectual wellness, whatever framework you want to use. It's making sure that you're caring for yourself, the whole self, so that you can show up at your best in your calling.
Speaker 2:Why do you think talking about this has become? I think it's a little too taboo for us and actually and maybe this is the role of a coach too is to just ask questions about hey, talk to me about your morning, what are you doing before you show up to work? Hey, talk to me about your evening, what are you doing before you go to bed? And I think there can be some shame on either end of those. And this is our identity, and Jesus doesn't allow us to stay in shame. He calls us up into being who God has made us to be. And we talk a lot, jack, about just 1% better. Is there just one thing you could do that replaces? Because there's a lot of psychology around this. It can't just be about deletion, it's got to be about replacement. So, replacing that drink, or replacing that coffee with water, replacing sitting with walking, replacing walking with jogging, replacing body weight work with a little bit of resistance training. As it relates to wellness too and I listen to a lot of wellness podcasts especially as it relates to what we eat, what we drink, how we move, how we move our bodies. I think if I could snap my finger and change the narrative around a body image. It would be to replace weight management I have to lose X amount of weight with. I want to gain X amount of muscle I want to. I want to look at my body mass index, my. My goal over over my sabbatical this is one of my last podcasts before my sabbatical. This will be released long after actually I've gotten back but is to get stronger and to measure body mass index and to be able to do X amount more pull-ups, x amount more weight with squats and I'm not a heavy weight guy. But I think I think we need to talk more about resistance training for for the worker. And it starts small, it starts with body, but then all of the details. This is one of the funny, funny quotes. Well, I think it's a funny piece of research.
Speaker 2:If you want to look at a longevity factor, you look at the circumference of a person's this is going to sound too much information but their thighs. How thick is a person's thighs? Because that's going to be an indicator. How well are you going to be able to resist that fall? Whatever it is? It's going to potentially take you out as you age.
Speaker 2:I want to have maximum amount of energy for all of the years. I know I'm going to die at 75 to 95, probably somewhere in there, right, unless some something goofy kind of goes on between now, now and then. But that gives me. I'm thinking I got 35, 40 more years of kingdom production and pouring into other people's life and I want to be able to be well. I don't want to. I don't want to hurt when I show up, because if my body doesn't feel good I can't show up for other people, and I think we just need to talk way more about weight not weight but muscle mass. And I know this sounds like it's not a spiritual thing. For me it's a very spiritual thing because my body is a temple to the Holy Spirit. Travis. Any thoughts there?
Speaker 4:Yeah, first of all, I think it's sometimes it's not always the big things, it's the Holy Spirit Travis. Any thoughts there? Yeah, first of all, I think it's sometimes it's not always the big things, it's the small things. It's kind of like that movie what About Bob? You know, it's like baby stepping out the doors. What is the smallest thing you can do that you could change? That's going to have the greatest impact, and start there and start with things you like to do With that. I also think that it's this idea of.
Speaker 4:There was a book a number of years ago called Change or Die, and they started off with a study the percentage of those where the doctor says change your habits or you're going to die. 90% of the people didn't change their habits. Fear is never going to work. What we've got to help people do is imagine the future of what their wellness goal looks like and tap into the reasons why it's important, like I was coaching somebody not too long ago where the reason why he wanted to be healthy is so when he's older he could play around with the grandkids and roll on the floor, and for him to be able to do that, he had to take care of his body, and so we started developing this plan with this vision for his wellness in the future, why it was important to him, and then just starting to look at the smallest changes he could make, and then to have somebody who walks along with you, who can inspire hope that change is possible, to help keep you accountable.
Speaker 4:I mean that's, you know, when people make new year's resolutions, you know it's a couple of weeks later and they've fallen off the wagon. It's because somebody is not walking along with you, encouraging and supporting you in that, because it takes about 66 days for a new action to turn into a habit in your life, where then it becomes self-sustaining. So you got to get people past that first couple of months to be able to do that. Where it's ingrained in our brain. We've rewired our brain and then tap it into reward. You know celebrating small victories. You know, break it down into bite sized parts. That's kind of like that book. You, though who is going to be? You know this non-judgment zone. Listen, I just care about you. I care about your health, your wellness, your goals, god wanting to use you, and I'm here to help serve you, and let's just figure out how to do this.
Speaker 2:Wouldn't the world be a much better place if everybody had a friend like that.
Speaker 4:Yeah, amen.
Speaker 2:You know we need one another desperately. This thing called the human experience is not for the faint of heart, and so do not go it, do not go it alone, and we get to be a part of the greatest mission movement of all times. If you're looking for a why, you know it's bringing light and love out into a dark and dying world. You know, and I think, finding that, finding that bigger, it could be a bigger wire. It could be a very simple why for taking care of our bodies, and for me, it's exactly that I did.
Speaker 2:My daughter just celebrated her graduation last night. We had 70 people over. It was like a small little wedding, you know, and and getting to pray over her, it was just a sweet moment and getting getting to dream about Lord, the young man that loves you, that's going to come into her life in the future. And they get to have, like I want to be around for my, my, my dad won the proverbial lottery because, all of well, all but three of his grandkids were there last night and he has 16 and 13, ranging in ages from five months to now, my, my daughter being the oldest. Like that's a cool life and my dad is not not been perfect or made the greatest. You know all that kind of stuff, I see. I see my dad as a human not, but I'm like man. That's a preferred future.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I want to. I want to be a part of it, for multiple generations to know and they've done a great job because all their kids know and follow Jesus and are passing on the faith how much better does it get than that? I want to be around. I want to be around for that, travis. Hey man, this has been great. You're a gift to the body of Christ. Thank you for being a friend of ours here at the ULC and it's an honor to promote what God is. That's how God made me to promote. Called to Be.
Speaker 4:Thank you.
Speaker 2:And who have you been called to be Great reads? Very, very helpful. If you don't have a coach, reach out Travis. What's the best place to kind of go? We have an LCMS kind of coaching network. Throw out a few resources. If people are like man, I'm looking for a coach, travis.
Speaker 4:Yeah, first of all, if you have anything around Called to Be to me at Travis at, called the number to the letter B dot com. I'm happy to chat with you there. If you more are Lutheran LCMS circles, reach out to me at T Guzzi, t G U S E, at S E dot LCMS dot org. We've got our SED coaching network. We've got great coaches who are looking for people to coach. We've got coach training available, and then there's the Lutheran coaching network. We've got great coaches who are looking for people to coach. We've got coach training available, and then there's the Lutheran Coaching Network. I can get you connected to Scott Gress. There's a lot of coaches nationally as well and they're happy to serve you in whatever you sense God's calling you to in life.
Speaker 2:Amen Closing comment Jack.
Speaker 3:No, that's fantastic. I think I'm really excited to see this kind of initiative, with coaching, you know, within our Lutheran church body and I'm really praying that it really bears a lot of fruit for us and I'm hopeful that it will.
Speaker 2:Hey, this is lead time. I pray this conversation was helpful for you as you grow up into Christ, who is your leader, your Lord, the lover of your soul, who has beautiful things in store for you in this life and in the life to come. It's a good day. Go make it a great day. Thanks so much, Jack, Thanks Travis, God bless guys.
Speaker 4:Blessings.
Speaker 1:You've been listening to Lead Time, a podcast of the Unite Leadership Collective. The ULC's mission is to collaborate with the local church to discover, develop and deploy leaders through biblical Lutheran doctrine and innovative methods To partner with us in this gospel message. Subscribe to our channel, then go to theuniteleadershiporg to create your free login for exclusive material and resources and then to explore ways in which you can sponsor an episode. Thanks for listening and stay tuned for next week's episode.